To be honest, I would prefer having the two tall items together, fridge and pantry, rather than having two small runs of counter space. Also, might be nice to have fridge closer to family room and eating area. Good luck!

It's a good plan and with island the traffic flow will be eased out quite a bit. Also, since we do not have a lot of information on your lifestyle and preferences etc; I assume there will be one person cooking in this kitchen.

Areas that I am concerned about:
1. The cabinets above dishwasher: will they hold all of your daily cups/glasses etc? From the picture at least it looks like an appliance garage like setup -- but this will be the best place to place plates, bowls etc. from the DW.

2. If you plan to use the island primarily for prepping, then the prep sink placed in the middle is actually fragmenting your island space. This is quite personal; I personally always feel torn between aesthetics (symmetrical placement) versus function.

3. This is again a personal thing; but I would be a bit bummed to see a solid wall in front of the island. Of course considering that it's a LB wall, it's hard to knock off. But are you open to considering something like an arch etc that supports the ceiling plus opens up the space totally? -- Then again this is if you want an open kitchen!

--My husband wants a table, i was thinking a very large
island, two-tier instead

You don't say how many are dining in the kitchen. I'm a table person, myself, but lots of folks like islands. Right now, it seems like a "worst of both worlds" design -- you've left a lot of less useful space--too small for a table and too far from sink and stove for working--in the right half of the drawing. Make a decision and then use all your space well. You can definitely do better.

I'm going to add to homey_bird's question about the cabinet to the left of the sink -- cleanup sinks need elbow room as you wash your pots and pans. A cabinet down to the counter, right next to the sink, really cuts that down, and may be vulnerable to water damage over time.

That fridge is kind of looming into your space, and everything is squashed into to left corner of the layout. Can you move the fridge next to the hutch/pantry to the right, move the window left accordingly, and then maybe move the range to the right a bit?

Also, you might consider identical windows to the left and right of the range instead of the one big window on the top wall. I think that would de-emphasize the importance of the view while still giving you the natural light you are looking for.

I would also move the prep sink all the way to one side of the island or the other.. most likely the side closest to the fridge, after it's moved.

I think if you pushed that sink hutch cab all the way to the end of the counter, it might be OK.

Finally, about your "break-away" island/table.. I think it is Plllog that has drop-down table that is attached to her island. I can't find a picture of hers but the link shows the concept. You can accomplish this with some brackets. Maybe you could do this along both the bottom and right sides of the island to get you the most seating.

Here is a link that might be useful: drop leaf idea

I assume the kitchen is all to the left because you want the lower table portion to the right?

I think this plan looks pretty good.

I do think you could put a square table up to the end of the island and move it away if you want.

Because there is close proximity and a clear aisle between the main sink, fridge, and stove, I would label the prep sink as 'Advantageous.' You can prep without working over dirty dishes, and it makes the kitchen more multi-worker friendly. It will also serve the island space as prep and baking area, and serve the eating areas, as well.

What about something like this? You can adjust the placement to work with your space, but the idea is to have the kitchen closer to the family room and looking into the library/dining area.

The corner windows can have a table and chairs, a corner banquette, or even a couple of small, but comfy chairs with an ottoman. What do you think?

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You all are great! Super advice, thanks much for all comments. Answering questions now. Will post revised layout soon.

- yes, the fridge and pantry are bothering me. Looking into moving a window tomhelp solve that.

- the cabinet above the dishwasher did have an appliance garage, but I think you all are right, and it leaves little space for washing up, switching to a regular cabinet

- the prep sink is being moved to the end of the island near the fridge, thanks!

- going for the breakaway table I think!
- the main kitchen was more to the left as the right side is very viewable from the front door, and my husband wants to be closer to the tv when eating :(

- for lifestyle --- a one cook kitchen, but my husband cleans up so I wanted the sink and dishwasher separate, so I can leave the mess for him, and not have it in the cooking area (like it is now)

- finally,

Ok everyone, layout OPTION #2 posted here. Better I hope, but I am still wanting folks to let me know the issues I might experience.

-- And where should that beverage fridge be located?
-- Do I need a warming drawer? They seem popular, but I'm not sure they are necessary.
-- Recycling in the island?
--30' MAIN sink is wide enough, right?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/62505552@N05/5846763880/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/62505552@N05/5846207495/

Here is a link that might be useful: FLICKR Link in case the embedded is not working.

Success with HTML finally! Makes it one less link for all of us! Please comment, really in need some critical thoughts.

Still not sure how many you're planning to seat at the table. In the last rendering the right chair on the closest side of the table conflict with the left seat on the end.

Your table only seems to have a view of the fridge...Is that OK?

The window over the sink is existing? It'd be nice to get a corner lazy susan cabinet to the right of the sink and move the sink and dw toward the door a bit...if the window can move.

Any reason the windows flanking the range don't match the sink window in length/height?

I still stand on my opinion that the layout looks quite functional.

Beverage fridge: At one end of the island overhang? If you want the island seating close to the table, I guess that would put the bev fr at the left end.

Trash/recycle pullout: recommend it goes in the corner cabinet on the island left of #16, and so it pulls out toward the main sink. That makes it convenient for scraping plates, etc. and also for cleaning up the prep space on the island. Also reachable from the stove...For empty a can or empty a container/wrapper, turn around and drop it in recycle/trash.

30" main sink, or 30" main sink cabinet? I like the sink as large as possible. 30" should be nice.

the pantry could be floor to ceiling pullout units. Looks like a wall. No counter.

Again, thank you!

-- The sink will be 30", the cabinet 33"+.
-- And yes, that wall in front of the island is totally LB.

So, the big questions are:

1. How do we make the fridge not be such a huge awful focus? There is not enough room on the main sink wall. Anyone have any photos that show a nice cabinet wall? I really don't like the way the REF and hutch take over the wall, but I do LOVE hutches in photos. Is there any way to make this look awesome?

2. Should the microwave be to the left or the right of the refrigerator?

3. Should the dishwasher be next to the sink, or should there be one small cabinet, then the DW?

4. Should we add a third window? More light, less upper cabinets. All of these trade-offs are so difficult.

Revised layout below, based on almost all advice.

Is it important to you that the sink be centered under the window? I ask b/c I echo RHome410's suggestion that you consider moving the sink & DW to the left and putting in a corner susan in that corner. If you can add anther 3" to the run, you could get a standard 36"x36" corner susan. If you cannot add 3", you could get a 33"x36" corner susan. Whether you can add those 3" depends on how close you're willing to go to the door. Some people take their cabs/counters right up to the door trim, others do not.

I like the 2-window layout, but I would make the two windows taller...they look "squatty" at their current height. What I like about this layout... There is quite a bit more room b/w the refrigerator and range
Unless you're getting a built-in or "true" counter-depth refrigerator (like Liebherr), your refrigerator will be approx 30" deep. This means it will stick into the aisle approx 6" when including the doors & handles. So if it's in front of the island & prep sink, you will have a much narrower aisle at that point. I'd rather see it stick out in front of the table than in front of the island. The range, btw, will also stick into the aisle 3" to 4" when including the oven door & handle.
The refrigerator is not directly in front of the island and prep sink. When it's directly in front, anyone accessing the refrigerator will get in the way of someone prepping.

Regardless, I recommend "building in" the refrigerator. In both layouts, the refrigerator looks like it's just stuck there. Not sure how to explain it. I think if you surrounded it with finished end panels (floor-to-ceiling), it would look better.

In the 3-window layout, you're back to chopping up workspace and putting more of the workspace where it probably won't be used much.

Is the prep sink "necessary"...no, b/c you could prep b/w the sink and range. However, since you said the view isn't very nice out those windows and you don't like prepping where dirty dishes might be piling up, the prep sink in the island is a "very nice to have" item...it will not only add to the functionality, but it also gives you a much more pleasant place to prep!

Island...Do you intend seating at the island? The table is so close, you might consider an island with no seating. Instead put your beverage refrigerator and additional storage on the back of the island. If you do need seating, how deep is the overhang? How wide is the aisle behind the island (the seating side)?

At 12'8", I don't think your kitchen is wide enough to accommodate seating with such a deep island, especially if that door next to the DW is used much. The minimum recommended aisle in this situation is 44" and is fine if there's no traffic in the aisle. 48" to 54" is better if there's any traffic.

12'8" = 152"

At best: 25.5" range run + 36" aisle + 50.5" island = 112"
152" - 112" = 40" aisle behind the island. It's really too narrow. (Island: 1.5" overhang + 24" deep cabinets + 1" decorative door + 24" overhang = 50.5" This is what the island looks like in the layouts.)

If you have the recommended 42" aisle b/w the range wall and the island, you're down to a 33.5" aisle.

Now, if you reduce the island to 41.5" (1.5" overhang + 24" cabinets + 1" decorative door + 15" overhang), you'll have an aisle of 49"...a good aisle width and seat-friendly. But, that would mean either no Beverage Refrigerator on that side of the island.

What you might consider, if the BR and seating are important to you, is making the island two depths...51" over the BR and then 41.5" where the seat(s) are. I'm not sure, though, how it would look...

Just an FYI...counters overhang cabinets by around 1.5". So, standard perimeter counter depths are usually around 25.5". 24" cabinets + 1.5" counter overhang.

On an island with just one set of cabinets, the island should be a minimum of 41.5" deep (counter-height): 1.5" overhang + 24" cabinets + 1" decorative door + 15" overhang

With two sets of cabinets, there will be a 1.5" overhang on both sides, so: 1.5" overhang + 24" cabinets + 24" cabinets + 1.5" overhang = 51" In this case, the aisle is fine at 39.5"...b/c there's no seating. You could even add 3.5" to the aisle b/w the range and island and still be fine.

25.5" range wall + 39.5" aisle + 51" island + 36" aisle = 152"
To me, this is the "best" idea!

Also, for counter-height seating, you will need 24" per seat of linear space.

For table seating, the minimum recommendations are 19" of "clear knee space" (that means no overlap w/other seats both from the sides as well as from the opposite side) and 30" of linear space per person. I do think, though, that 24" of linear space is fine for most people. If people are big (wide or tall) or they like a lot of elbow room, then the 30" is better.

So, as RHome410 already pointed out, with a 45" wide x 48" long table. You only have room, at most, for 3 people...2 people on the 48" side and one person on the 45" side...b/c you need to allow for 24" of space for the person plus at least 19" of overhang for the person sitting on the adjacent side. Knees from two sides cannot occupy the same space!

Good luck!

I don't mind a fridge in a kitchen, and if it weren't for the table, and that you first had windows at that end, it wouldn't bother me now. I might look less obtrusive if you built out the pantry to the same depth.

I don't know if it's the angle of this last view, or if you stretched the windows way tall? But the narrow window with the narrow hutch and narrow cab beside the fridge isn't working for me. But I might be getting thrown off by that narrow cab's height and configuration. It should be designed to flow better and look a part of the fridge and its cabinets above...IMO

Yes, the dw should be beside the sink. The only time a cab in between is desirable is if you have a corner sink....Or if the dw is on the adjacent run of cabinets, so at a 90 degree angle from the sink.

I use my microwave while I'm making dinner, so I'd want it to the stove side of the fridge.

You asked about warming drawers before. I'm sure those who have them appreciate them. I don't have one and never have, so don't miss it.

I haven't followed all of the previous layouts- but is there are reason for the seating to be at the right end of the isalnd? Looks like your eating area is across the kitchen from your cleaning areas... If you swap the ends of the isalnd; move the fridge to the "wall pantry" (fridge will not be in the center lrage object in the middle of the wall then and you can put MW in the same wall) and move range closer to the fridge, you will have all prep in the right portion of the kitchen and a good flow for "prep", "cook", "serve", "clean"...

As suggested the table is just NOT WORKING. I don't have a table space kitchen now, maybe I should just go all island? So, trying a toatally different approach --- is this better?

The software is not easy to maneuver, so it is only 42" inches wide, not 48". Yes, thanks BUEHL -- this is the best idea! = 25.5" range wall + 39.5" aisle + 51" island + 36" aisle = 152" And the 1.5" overhang info is super helpful.

- Yes and integrated refrigerator is what we need. We just bought a new refrigerator about a year ago, it broke a year too early, we may need to buy another new one.

-- And RHOME410, yes the pic was stretched. Sorry. Thanks for verfiying MW and DW location "requirements", so helpful.

-- And to efs, yes, trying your ideas tomorrow.

This is a tedious process, but totally worthwhile!

Is that the fridge on the left end wall now? I don't think we know how large or what ages your family is, or how many workers or diners you have yet... If you want space for multiple workers in the kitchen, I'd keep the fridge on the cooking end of the kitchen, with a prep sink in the island. Keeps zone separation, which is very helpful if you have people doing different things in the kitchen at once. Also a prep sink will make the island more useful as a work area. Not 'necessary' if you are a one-woman show in the kitchen, but maybe still quite nice.

I don't know if that's a warming drawer or microwave in the last pic right by the sink, but it's an odd place for either one, I think.

Ok, I've been hard at work thinking and redesigning the kitchen. Does anyone think totally new below layout is the best use of the space yet?

PS. I have a husband that would rather not cook ever, and two boys ages 8 and 10. We are a busy, modern family, with two working parents, and many sporting events. We entertain my family sometimes for which we will use the dining room [which is where we eat now everyday]. The house is 1600 square feet, moving up to 2500 after the addition, so still quite small. We are adding the family room, and stealing space from an existing 12.5 x 12.5 room to create the 12.5 x 22.5 kitchen.

I'm loving this website, and feel I have learned so much from you all and from my separate research that I am inclined to comment for others now! Thanks!

I would like the range behind the island (moving it right so that at least so its left edge lines up with the end of the island) so that the prep area and it are closer to each other/right across from each other. This would also move the range out of the main sink area...they almost share standing room.

Hi all. I have spend weeks finalizing, and have taken into consideration all of your feedback, and feel that this is the best kitchen layout possible. Your comments - both directly here and as advice on other pages --- have been PRICELESS!

We are now debating the following:

1. The kitchen layout is quite final! But we still may have a few inches to work with on certain cabinets, hoping the cabinet seller will assist. No need for a CKD?

2. Island layout: more seating or cabinets? Beverage fridge?

3. After much discussion, the microwave is undercounter on the island. Good?

4. Cabinet Brands: Which is semi-healthy, no formaldehyde but is quality and reasonably priced?

- CrownPoint [direct :) ]
- Breath Easy [from Green Depot in NY]
- Tedd Wood [from Barron Kitchens in Gaithersburg]
- Ecofriendly line from Executive Cabinets [from Amicus Green Building in Kensington]
- KountryKraft [from an independent designer, love her, maybe not the cabinet brand]

Comments on the healthy cabinets BRAND and the final LAYOUT are appreciated. Thanks experts!

More to come!

I don't have answers or comments on all of your questions, but here are the ones I do:

2. Island: It appears you might be a little tight for the seating up against the island. Because they are trapped between the island and the outside person, I'd want to make sure each seat has the full recommended 2 ft each. More might be nice?
Beverage fridge: I would put the trash pullout facing the sink on the top left corner of the island...Because that would be a narrow cabinet, it leaves enough room to put a beverage fridge facing out (down) on the left end of the island. I hope that makes sense. You could then replace 2 and 3 with a nice, substantial bank of 3 drawers perhaps for pots and pans?

3. MW seems good to me. Are you using the drawer type?

I much prefer the layout you posted Sunday at 23:17--probably because it's very nearly a mirror image of my layout, which I love. :) I'd make the window over the sink bigger, and I'd still have a prep sink in the island, but other than those things, I think it works quite well like you have it.

All of the versions where you have the fridge in the middle of the wall look off kilter to me. Besides the screwy aesthetics, given that you'll have teenage boys before long, I'd want the fridge accessible without entering my work area. Since you do all your actual meals in the dining room, I think you'll be perfectly happy with only island seating in the kitchen.

What I was looking for as I scrolled through was something like the second drawing with larger windows and the island from the "all island" version. On that island, I'm not sure if you have open space all the way through on the right -- I'd have it open across the seating side and close it up all the way on the other side -- maybe that gives you a good spot for that beverage fridge that was mentioned.

I'm wondering if you gave consideration to a "U" shaped kitchen (as you mentioned in your first post) with smaller island? I have this set up with my sink, stove and refrigerator at different ends of the "U". This way prep, cooking and clean up are more separate and thus several people can be busy in the kitchen at once. I still feel your work zones ares squished together and for such a large kitchen they should be more spaced out! My kitchen is almost identical in size to yours, btw. In our last kitchen we also had a "U" shape but it wasn't big enough to fit the island. But our new kitchen (and yours) is big enough for both!

New kitchen - Refrigerator is to the left of cupboard.

I'd have one main sink, placed in island a little more to the range end,thereby eliminating need for prep sink because of that improved location. Then you'd get that great counter at the end of your kitchen.People seem to like their island sinks.