Hi Carol, I just voted. Now to the important stuff. I toss the pepper plants because I have nowhere to store them over winter; then I grow new plants, starting next spring. I buy, preferably, four packs of the hot peppers my son in law likes, plus some we all like (Thai) for food seasoning. Current pepper plants have already been harvested of the peppers more than once, and in the next couple of weeks will be harvested one last time of anything still ripening now. Our Japanese peppers have been harvested at least four times. They are super productive. We kind of just pick at the cherry tomatoes when we want some. I grow a huge basil crop, which is harvested all summer for many batches of pesto and for seasoning all kinds of other dishes. So I'm not throwing away the peppers, just the plants they grow on. I checked the rose hips on my Morden Sunrise, and it's like a little apple crop. Bunches of them are turning red. And the Abbaye de Cluny just has the one huge hip. I need to remember to photograph these. I'm especially excited about my larger Love Song plant which is enormous and blooming these huge lavender blooms, and I am taking photos of these monsters. I'm furious with Brother Cadfael (yes, again) and Jude the obscure which have totally bombed this September. Will someone make me dig up these old slackers and replace them with something bloomier. I'm so glad you're having this wonderful fall season. It's great so far here after the awful fall last year. I wish we had seasons that extended to November--then two or three months of winter when we rest, and then back to spring again. Oh, you said your birthday was Nov 22, I believe. Mine is Nov 7. So you were born on the cusp and are part Scorpio/part ?. I'm just a straight, nasty stinging scorpion. We soar like the eagle and sting like scorpion (our dual animal reps). It's all hogwash.

Flowers, OK, that sounds more reasonable. I wonder if Osmocote would whip my two biggest slacker roses, Bro and Jude, into shape. Two big monsters, they are currently sitting in solid green splendor, refusing to bloom in September (and very little in August, either). I dread digging up stuff that big. You are working so much harder than I am, or have, for that matter. I love your new rose bed. Right now, I mainly just sit and stare at everything, do a little deadheading and watering, and then sit some more. I will be totally out of shape when it's compost time in November. I never plant roses or perennials in the fall. The perennials never seem to make it through the winter. And this year, I can't get out to buy anything, anyway. What perennials are you planting right now? Like you, I can't believe it's almost over for the year. The older one gets, the faster time slips by. A cliche that is so true.

Carol and Flowers and anyone else out there--what are your very favorite roses--most beautiful, most floriferous? And what are the ones you most think I should try? I can't make up my mind about anything, and If I dig up any roses, I need to have replacements I'm excited about. Thanks for your help. Diane

Diane: Brother Cadfael is stingy on Predfern (20 min. from me with loamy soil, 38 to 40" rain per year), so there's no hope. Jude the Obscure (grafted) lasted only 1 year for the rose park, and Jude died on me 4 times as own-root.

My 6-year-old Own-root Dee-lish is drought tolerant and CONTINUOUS bloomer, even better than Evelyn. Right now after frost my 4 roses with PERFECT foliage and plenty of buds are:
Belinda's Dream (grafted on Dr. Huey, consumes the least water), own-root Dee-lish, own-root 6-year-old Munstead Wood (very bushy), and own-root Sweet Mademoiselle. But Munstead Wood (grafted at rose park) was bare sticks with blackspots.

A friend in Costa Mesa, CA with only 12" of annual rain & alkaline clay told me that her best bloomers (grafted-on-Dr.Huey) are: Anna's Promise, Neptune, Libensauzer, Yves, Piaget, Munstead Wood, Tess of d'Ubervilles, Jayne Austin, Nicole Carole Miller, Rouge Royal, Sweetness, Koko Loco, Tequila Sunrise. Those are the best among her 120 roses. She posted pics. of her favorites in HMF: https://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=99.4879524&tab=9

Below is from Roses Unlimited website as VIGOROUS own-roots that are healthy & easy bloomer: Roses Worth Growing

Earth Kind Roses – Roses proven to deliver outstanding landscape performance under widely varying soil conditions with minimal care: Belinda’s Dream Carefree Beauty Cecile Brunner Ducher Duchesse de Brabant Else Poulsen Georgetown Tea Knock Out La Marne Marie Daly Mme. Antoine Mari Mutabilis New Dawn Perle d’Or Pink Pet Pinkie, climber Reve d’Or Sea Foam Souv. de St. Anne’s Spice The Fairy

ADR Award – In the USA, Earth Kind is rapidly becoming a most coveted designation indicating high-performance, low-maintenance roses. In continental Europe, the designation “ADR” has been for several years reserved for European Roses that have withstood the same rigorous testing. Only roses that are outstandingly resistant to disease without chemical sprays can receive this prized “ADR” Award.

• Bajazzo
• Black Forest Rose
• Bro. Grimm Fairy Tale
• Compassion
• Dark Desire
• Dee-Lish
• Dortmund
• Elina
• Eliza
• Francis Meilland
• Golden Gate
• Grande Amore
• Inocencia Vigorosa
• Jasmina
• Kosmos Fairy Tale
• Laguna
• Larissa
• Lavender Dream
• Lion’s Fairy Tale
• Lone Star
• Lupo
• Oh Happy Day
• Pink Enchantment
• Pink Martini
• Pomponella Fairy Tale
• Roter Korsar
• Roxy
• Ruby Ice
• Solero
• Summer Sun
• Topolina
• Westerland

Carol: $83 for 8 lb. of Osmocote PLUS on Amazon in Canada is outrageous compared to only $22 for 8 lb. on USA Amazon. But roses need to be fed, esp. after pruning. What's taken out needed to be given back.

Most of my own-root roses are 6 year to 10 year old, and they need MORE NITROGEN as their roots become chunky & woody and less efficient in picking up nitrogen. Just like my 20-year old deciduous trees, as they get older, they have less leaves .. I don't fertilize my trees so soil is depleted around the trees.

The years that I skipped pouring 1/2 bag of chicken manure on my sour-cherry-tree, it didn't have much fruits.

Diane: Agree on stockpiling fertilizers. Even own-root roses need tons of soil piled up on-top to make-up for the nutrients used up each year. Own-root roses have perfect foliage for the first 3 years, then after that it's down-hill thanks to depletion of nutrients, esp. calcium & potassium. The only way to reverse it is to pile up 1 foot of horse manure each year FOR TRACE ELEMENTS. If roots can't extend out to 3 feet away like Dr.Huey rootstock to gather nutrients, then the top 1' x 1' patch of soil (ABOVE THE CROWN) is totally depleted of nutrients.

Clay is dense in nutrients, but I find my tomatoes to give 90% less fruits if I don't put 2 to 3 cups of Tomato-Tone in planting hole, plus 1/2 bag of compost humus & cow manure. That's 2 cups of Tomato-Tone (higher in potassium than rose-tone) plus 1/2 bag of compost or horse manure ON TOP of the 2' x 2' area above a crown for a big rose 3' x 3'.

My tomatoes are huge, each plant is 10 times the size of one own-root rose .. so own-root rose needs less nutrients than a tomato. Own-roots have small roots like 1.5 feet deep with a radius of 1 foot in all directions, so I really need to pile up stuff frequently. Dr.Huey is a bigger plant, spreads out more with a radius of 3 foot in all directions, down to 2.5 feet deep .. still need fertile topping of 3 times per year. Whatever I take out in pruning after a flush, I need to add back TWICE MORE weight on top. So I spend less money on buying new roses, but more money on fertilizer to keep the existing ones well fed & blooming.

Here's my random observations from my morning in the garden:

Lambert Closse, Champagne Arches and Jean Kenneally don't like the alfalfa I put on. I thought I'd give them a little extra boost going into winter so crumbled some alfalfa cubes. Now they have varying shades of yellow on most of their leaves. Interestingly some of the others I put it on (Queen N, Apricot Twist, Just Joey, Sexy Rexy) look fabulous. Trying the biochar on the yellowing ones and maybe I'll get some horse manure this afternoon.

The biochar experiment has really perked up Champlain, Love, and Henry Kelsey(? no tag but I'm pretty sure that's what he is.) Huge thanks to StrawChicago for the wisdom on the other thread regarding use of biochar. Instead of pine this char is oak with chicken drippings (the leftovers from my husband's grill) and the roses I put it on are looking so good that I went around and put it on everything else that looked like it could use a boost.

Too much fish fertilizer hindered growth on Wollerton Old Hall and Let Freedom Ring. When I put them into their big pots for winter I scraped out as much as I could of the not yet broken down fish products and replaced with a mixture of compost and more potting soil and the leaves and even stems are looking much healthier.

And a question: do roses usually have any color changes in their leaves before dropping them going into dormancy? I haven't paid much attention in past years and last year when I was really getting into the rose gardening we went from summer to winter in one day and one afternoon they were blooming like mad, the next morning they were covered in snow and the snow never left til April. So I never got to see a transition into dormancy. But this October is perfect fall weather!!

Joey: Thank you for the above observations that particular own-root roses have different preferences. I don't see any drastic color changes in their leaves, except that we have lots of acidic rain in the fall, and own-roots' leaves are darker-green.

Many, many thanks, straw. I want to comment on your helpful advice later when I have some time. I'll just make one brief comment, though. Brother Cadfael and Jude the Obscure are 16 years old, and I don't think they are interested anymore in blooming after spring. The plants themselves are huge and gorgeous with great leaves, so actually look quite nice as plants--but I want some blooms after spring--at least more than they have produced given their size. I feel that those two are ready for retirement, but I've got a lot of sentimental emotion invested in them. More later and thanks again. Diane

Carol: What are the results from root-pruning a rose for pots? Some folks do it for pots, and I would love to learn more. Thanks.

Diane: I accidentally root-pruned 9-year old Evelyn, and 6-year-old Munstead Wood when I moved them. These are own-roots so the main-roots become woody & chunky, and when I dug them up, I broke the lower half of the chunky roots, so they had to grow more upper cluster-roots (more efficient for water uptake and blooming).

Main reason for the fantastic blooming after moving is: soil-replacement. I'm pretty sure I burnt the old soil with overdose of phosphorus (too much chicken manure). Phosphorus mobility is a 1, it DOES NOT leach out of planting hole like potassium (mobility of 3), plus roses don't use much phosphorus (only 1/10 of rose tissue analysis is phosphorus, compare to 1 part of potassium, 0.5 calcium and 1.5 part of nitrogen). From U. of CA rose-tissue analysis study.

10-year old Pat Austin was stingy last year, so in spring I dug down 1 foot and put a layer of pea-gravel around its root-zone. That's to "re-mineralize" the old-roots. That pea-gravel has both calcium and potassium. Then I took out the surface soil (tainted with high-phosphorus) and put COMPOSTED grass-clippings mixed with bagged-top-soil (black clay), plus pre-mixed gypsum (months in advance so its acidity softens hard clay, rather than destroys roots). Gypsum is acidic and roses always break out in blackspots when topped with gypsum or acidic grass-clippings.

Pat Austin now is loaded with 20+ blooms in 4 hours of sun, a miracle for 10-year own-root. Another approach is SOLUBLE fertilizer high in sulfate of potash & gypsum to induce blooms, but it's expensive & time-consuming.

The problem with high-phosphorus from accumulated chicken-manure: that suppress both potassium and calcium, so I get less blooms, smaller blooms, and less petals, and esp. BURNT and LESS leaves from high-phosphorus.

It's easier to scrape off the top few inches of soil, than moving roses. I was ready to give up on 10-year-old Gruss an Teplitz (own-root) so stingy last year & half-naked. I was about to dig it up & trash it.

But I had so much fun prying out concrete blocks of clay around roses with a pitchfork, so I did that to Gruss, prying out the hardened clay (from pH 9 tap-water & high phosphorus). I threw those old-chunks of clay away, and put in new bagged soil (made fluffy with composted grass-clippings), and Gruss blooms well again & lots of healthy leaves.

The ideal soil replacement is bagged top-soil, mixed with alfalfa meal. Alfalfa meal has the perfect NPK of 2-1-2, plus growth hormone. The many-petals roses need an ungodly amount of calcium so I pre-mix gypsum months in advance in the bagged soil (black clay here).

My Zone 5 does rejuvenation-pruning roses down to 1 foot or to the crown after winter, but it doesn't help with roses at 10+ years. "What time of year should rejuvenation pruning be done? Rejuvenation or renewal pruning is usually done in early spring before new growth emerges. However, you may wish to delay rejuvenation pruning on early spring-blooming shrubs until just after they’ve finished flowering." https://organicplantcarellc.com/rejuvenation-or-renewal-pruning-to-restore-overgrown-shrubs/

For Austin roses grafted on Dr.Huey .. they tend to be giant & tall with little blooms & lots of leaves as they get older (climber-genetics?) I saw that at nearby rose park with alkaline clay and they use high-phosphorus fertilizer. But my 6 Knock-out roses (grafted-on-Dr.Huey) bloomed well past 15-year-old. When I dug them up per my daughter's request, these Knock-outs grew OWN-ROOTS above Dr.Huey since I planted they deep, at least 6 inch. below ground. I never fertilize them either !! Pakistan rose-growers in Facebook group are planting their grafted-roses DEEP like cold-zoners to encourage own-roots to grow above with a bushier shape.

Diane - you're born on my mom's birthday!!! How cool!! Yes, sometimes I'm a Scorpio and sometimes a Saggitarius...yes...hogwash. :) Oh, I see...I thought that peppers only ripened at the end of the season. I've never grown them. Sounds like you're harvesting all summer and really enjoying the bounties of growing your own food!! Maybe I'll try again next summer. I usually grow tomatoes, peas, beans, onions, parsley, and strawberries. Your Love Song is something else!!! My goodness!!!! As to Bro Cad and Jude...why not get rid of them and grow something else that will drive us mad with rose lust like everything else you grow. :) Oh, I see why not...they're monster bushes that would take too much effort to get rid of. Hmmmm....if I were to suggest any they would be: Chartreuse de Parme, Stainless Steel, PJPII, Memorial Day, Chandos Beauty (!!!!), Zaide, Jacques Cartier, or Jadis. Those are my best. Or...leave Bro and Jude there and grow some climbers/ramblers along them. You're right...16 years ... those bushes don't owe you anything. That's a long time!!

Straw - man, you went all out with some great suggestions for Diane!! Yeah, I know!!! It's so much more expensive for Amazon.ca than .com. I'm still not sure what I should do.

- Osmocote alone

- Osmocote with MG, Gaia rock dust, K, Su, fish fert, etc.

- just MG, Gaia rock dust, K, Su, fish fert. etc.

What do you think I should do?

Joey - it's so great that Straw's bio-char recommendation really helped your roses!!! My husband is cutting down our dying tree...I could burn parts of it...but we do have ordinances against city fires. Oh well...such is life.

Straw - well, I've only done it on one or two roses. I root pruned Nicole Carol Miller...same pot with no soil change in about 9 years ??? It wasn't blooming anymore...just one or two...and so I got my husband to take it out of the pot. We took most of the soil off the bush...just left a few inches around the roots and did minimal root pruning (2 inches) and changed the soil. This year it did really well!! I think it was more the soil change than anything...like you suggested. But...if roots are going round and round in the pot (which has never happened for mine) then root pruning would be very helpful.

Carol: Love that pic. of Nicole Carole Miller. How do you like its scent compared to your favorite Paradise Found? Osmocote Plus has NPK rating of 15-9-12 with trace elements. Answer to your questions below in bold:

Osmocote alone Not enough, since it's mainly for trace-elements and the release is very slow.

- Osmocote with MG, Gaia rock dust, K, Su, fish fert, etc. Yes, MG-soluble for plants at NPK 24-8-16 can leach out plus it's high-salt, so best in tiny dose (1/4 amount) with small amount of water to prevent leaching .. this SOLUBLE works instantly at the risk of elongated canes due to quick nitrogen.

Osmocote PLUS is slow-released at NPK 15-9-12: good reservoir for trace-elements. This make tiny rootings' leaves shiny and glossy thanks to Oscomote's high potassium of 12. But it DID NOT PREVENT acidic rain to cause blackspots on my rootings & lost leaves.

ALKALINE Gaia rock dust is needed prior to heavy rain (tiny amount) to neutralize the acidity of rain. Use sulfur during weeks of zero rain with alkaline tap-water (multiflora prefers slightly acidic). Save the expensive sulfate of potash for roses that are prone to blackspots, there's a potassium depletion with heavy bloomers or zillion petals-roses.

Fish fertilizer is to deepen the blooms' colors, plus trace-elements, but it's fast released so that gets leached out with watering.

- just MG, Gaia rock dust, K, Su, fish fert. etc. After seeing the health of tiny rootings with Osmocote, it's worth it. NPK of 15-9-12 is better than MG-Soluble NPK of 24-8-16.

I would use MG-soluble ONLY FOR TONS OF RAIN, since rain leaches out nitrogen and MG-soluble has 24 for nitrogen & also highest in salt compared to your other fertilizers.

CONCLUSION: take out MG-soluble during hot & dry if you use Osmocote. Alfalfa pellets NPK 2-1-2 is best for hot & dry rather than SALTY MG-soluble. Alfalfa releases acidic sulfur when it breaks down to neutralize alkaline tap-water, plus alfalfa has growth hormone.

Diane, if you ever decide to retire the Brother and Jude, take cuttings. You might even be able to replace them with their own babies and what a special gift for your gardening friend with the enormous yard. She wouldn't have the problem of no room.

Straw, my head is spinning after reading the above. I was in a hurry and speed reading, so I will go over it more slowly later. I'm so glad you're here!!

Agree with Andrea (Flowers) to take cuttings of roses that decline. I was able to root Jude years ago when I was just a beginner in rooting. A friend rooted Jude in 100% coarse sand and gave me a few rootings .. but Jude never survive more than 2 winters in zone 5.

Young roses have more cluster-roots (as own-root) and bloom easily. My 1st-year tiny own-root Jude gave 4 blooms per flush, that's more than rose park's Jude (grafted on Dr.Huey) which was 7 foot tall with only one bloom in fall flush.

Thank you RoseCanadian and Strawchicago and for starting this thread and for all the great info and tips for growng roses. Its been really helpful for a newbie like me who has started the rose journey only recently.

Thank you to everyone else too for the useful suggestions and tips.

I have picked up these soil amendments and fertilizers in the last few days after a lot of reading from all your posts here:}

-Leafgro soil conditioner compost

-Organic claybreaker soil conditioner with gypsum

-Black kow cow manure

-miracle gro garden soil

-scotts top soil

- miracle gro Peat moss

- miracle gro perlite

-coarse sand

-epsom salt

-oscomote plus

-mills magic rose mix

-Espoma Bulbtone to plant bulbs

-Espoma garden lime ph balance for the hydrangeas

- Alfalfa pellets is on my list(Havent found it in HD or lowes, planning to get from amazon)

- Alaska fish fertilizer is on the list. have to get it from HD.

Now in fall:

Part 1: Fix the drainage issue in a new bed where roses like Easy does it etc are struggling.

-Add coarse sand, perlite and claybraker with gypsum.

Part 2: Amend soil for the new bed and existing bed,

Mix together 1/3 existing newly dug soil, 1/3 miracle gro potting soil, 1/3 mix of leaf gro compost, cow manure, peat moss, epsom salt.

Part 3: Fertilze with Mills magic rose mix

In spring:

Amend with a mix of soil, compost and manure. Fertilize with Oscomote plus.

How is this plan? Please let me know if i am doing anything wrong. Anything else that i need to buy? Any changes?

Straw - it's hard to say...I haven't had Paradise Found in something like 8 years. It was when I was beginning to appreciate fragrance. I do know that I love Nicole Carol Miller's fragrance! It is always strong and sharp.

Thank you so MUCH!! I'm all set for spring now with what I have learned from you!! I did it backwards...I put alfalfa pellets in the spring...and that's when we get our heavy rain. I l ike how you reiterated (tiny amount)...LOL...I really did overdo it by a lot!!

Mysticwaves - you are most welcome! :) This has been a fantastic thread!! I have learned so much too! :)

If anyone here knows anything about fuchsias...please visit my new thread on the fuchsia forum on Houzz...I have a few questions. Thanks!

Carol

mysticwaves_zone7a Do you have clay soil? And how dense is the clay? Does it clump together? If your soil clumps together, then skip Epsom salt (magnesium def. is rare, occurs only in sandy soil). Is the pH of your soil neutral, acidic, or alkaline? Are there rocks mixed in with soil, or rocks below .. rocks UP the pH of soil. Also rainfall is another factor: more rainfall, more acidic.

Osmocote Plus is used for pots, not sure if it's good for the ground with a bunch of empty plastic shells after the fertilizer is released. If you have pics. of your soil, plus the above info. it will help to see what amendments are needed. For my dense & alkaline clay, brown stuff like hard-wood chips, peat moss, leaves, cocoa mulch GLUE UP and make my clay harder, since these decompose to alkaline. But GREEN STUFF like alfalfa hay, grass clippings .. these make my clay fluffy due to more acid released when they decompose, plus they decompose to NEUTRAL pH.

I spent a long time before I found the ingredients on-line of Lilly Miller product (Tomato at NPK 5-10-10 and Bulb & flower at NPK 4-10-10) .. both contain muriate of potash (potassium chloride, very salty at 116 salt-index). After a long time searching, I cannot locate on-line the ingredients of Lilly Miller for Acid plants NPK 10-5-4 so I suspect it also has muriate of potash like their OTHER PRODUCTS.

Organic Bloom Booster by Dr. Earth has sulfate of potash (LOWER SALT at 43 salt-index), with NPK 3-9-4. Ingredients are: Fish bone meal, feather meal, potassium sulfate, alfalfa meal, kelp meal, seaweed extract and seven strains of Pro-Biotic beneficial soil microbes, PLUS Ecto and Endo Mycorrhizae. Organic Bloom Booster granules by Dr. Earth

Below is the result of fertilizing with Bloom Booster by Dr. Earth NPK 3-9-4, it's W.S. 2000 in 4 hours of sun & tiny own-root at 1' x 1'. That's the 1st time that it did such a huge cluster in its 10-years in my garden.

Then I moved it away from my air-conditioner and put it next to the rain-spout, here's the result of its blooming with lots of Tomato-Tone NPK 3-4-6 in the planting hole, NOT as impressive as Dr.Earth granular Bloom Booster:

Ingredients for Tomato Tone (used inside above pic's planting hole) are listed in below link (similar to Dr. Earth but DOES NOT HAVE trace elements like kelp meal nor seaweed extract like Dr. Earth's.)

https://espomadealer.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/2020_Tomato-tone_Web_Analysis_Chart.gif

Warning about Dr. Earth NPK 3-9-4: the fish-bone-meal is stinky, it attracts flies, and midge is a type of fly. High phosphorus fertilizer also attracts thrips (an insect). I got the worst midge-infestation with Dr. Earth product. It does UP the blooming with high phosphorus at 9, plus kelp & seaweed for trace-elements. For health, I prefer top-dressing with horse manure for trace elements or cow-manure (without quick lime), plus sulfate of potash.

I read through Amazon reviews of Dr. Earth granular bloom-fertilizer NPK 3-9-4 and many folks voiced the same complaints: stinky odor which attract flies and gnats.

Lots of great info, Teresa! I'm wondering if the 2nd picture's roses are held more erectly than the rose you're holding in the first picture. Because I'd far rather have canes that hold the blooms up and have less blooms than have more blooms with floppy canes. Do you think that's what's happening there?

Still reading through all of this great info, thank you everyone for posting what they've learned with their roses. Really helpful.

@mysticwaves_zone7a - One thing I've read a little about is the difference in fish based fertilizers. You mention Alaska which is sold at the big box stores. I would recommend to look for Neptunes Harvest fertilizers if you're interested in fish emulsions (or seaweed). I'm new to roses myself, so I have only been focusing on their conditions/fertilizers this past season. No pro here.

But what I've read is that not only are the Neptunes fish based fertilizers more nutritionally balanced, but they're processed differently than most other fish fertilizers. I think they're cold-processed which leaves a lot of the beneficials in the fish/seaweed in the actual fertilizers to be used by your soil/plants. It is kind of like cooking vegetables/food. At a certain temp, you lose a lot of the beneficials in veggies and other foods. Sounds bizarre, but I can feel my body respond positively when I eat giant salads with raw veggies vs cooked. Maybe it's the same for plants and soils?

Also I spoke with Neptunes Harvest about what to use for some of my less-amended rose beds that have heavier clay/rocky soil. I've been reading about yucca extract being used in combination with Humic Acid to loosen clay soil and create more air for roots. The Neptunes guy agreed with what I'd been reading and recommended their "Lawn Starter" formula for early spring time application. He told me it really activates the soil life and in turn helps the plants. I might give it a try next spring. I believe the Lawn Starter formula is:

Fish

Seaweed

Yucca

Humate Concentrate

Molasses

You can either drench/or spray their products. This season I used Neptunes "Fish+Seaweed "combo formula and then their "Rose Formula" later in summer (only because I hadn't discovered it till then). I spray and use them to drench soil after watering too.

I found that the colors on my rose flowers became more saturated, and I am still unsure on this, but the flowers seem to last longer. I was disappointed with my New Dawns when they first flowered because of how white the flowers were (in May when I first planted). They've now flowered with that really nice shell/blush pink that does fade to white eventually, but feels richer.

I try not to overly amend my soils when digging holes/garden beds since I figure that after a few years, plants are going to reach my rocky clay soil with their roots no matter what. I'm still trying to read and learn as much as I can about soil health/life myself, so take all of this with a grain of salt.

Also for Mystic- If you're able to find any barn feed stores near you, they should have alfalfa pellets in giant bags. Might be cheaper to try that instead of amazon/online. Hope this helps!

Brendan: Fantastic info. that you shared, THANK YOU. I agree that Neptune RAW fish emulsion (preserved in acid) is best. The poster Seaweed posted the most DEEP & GLOWING colors in roses using fish emulsion. Molasses is amazing to deepen colors, in 2012 I got tired of Sonia Rykiel being light pink so I doused it in molasses mixed with vinegar and its color got deep pink. Molasses are high in iron & calcium & potassium.

Carol: You are super-smart and ask the most intelligent & discerning questions .. I love your questions. The dark red in my bouquet is Barcelona, the pinkish smaller blooms are W.S. 2000. The BIG reddish pink bloom is The Dark Lady.

I agree with you, Carol, that the 2nd pic. of W.S. 2000 fertilized with Tomato Tone NPK 3-4-6 is BETTER HEALTH with thicker stem than the 1st pic. fertilized with Dr.Earth Bloom/Flower girl NPK 3-9-4. The problem with high phosphorus at 9: it suppresses potassium and calcium (calcium, potassium, and phosphorus all compete for absorption). I wrote many times about how phosphorus fertilizer BURNT the leaves when I tested on geraniums (leaves got brown, then fell off). Also Rouge Royal and La Reine bloomed tons, but blackspot and lost leaves when I planted them in 100% cow-manure (high phosphorus).

Recent hot & dry August I tested high phosphorus MG-soluble NPK 18-24-16, and Evelyn stems became THIN like wires, can't support the bloom, plus blooms lasted 2 days in the vase rather than 5 days.

Warning about Dr. Earth NPK 3-9-4: the fish-bone-meal is stinky, it attracts flies, and midge is a type of flies. I got the worst midge-infestion with Dr. Earth product. It does UP the blooming with high phosphorus at 9, plus kelp & seaweed for trace-elements. For health, I prefer top-dressing with horse manure for trace elements or cow-manure (without quick lime).

Diane Brakefield likes the Lilly Miller acid-fertilizer I recommended 2012, it has chemical SOLUBLE phosphorus, but no stinky bone-meal (for calcium & phosphorus). SOLUBLE phosphorus works better than bone meal since bone meal can't be released unless the pH is below 7. Diane has much less acidic rain than me. The only reservation about Lilly Miller Acid-fertilizer at NPK 10-5-4 is they changed from sulfate of potash (back in 2011) to cheap and SALTY muriate of potash (potassium chloride) .. this has 3 times more salt than sulfate of potash.

So if someone wants tons of blooms for show (along with midge & thrips & less leaves or blackspot fest), then high phosphorus with stinky fish-bone-meal like Dr. Earth NPK 3-9-4 is best.

I want HEALTHY LEAVES (I don't spray), plus NO thrips or midge, so I prefer Tomato Tone at NPK 3-4-6, highest potassium at 6 (sulfate of potash at salt-index of 42) for THICK CANE. Tomato Tone has cattle bone-meal (less stinky than fish-bone-meal), so best for high-rain region. Bone meal for phosphorus gives better colors for blooms.

My main concern about muriate of potash (potassium chloride) in Lilly Miller products is its high salt-index of 120. Also muriate of potash turned my red roses BLACK !! It also gave my pink colors brown edges, ugly. I don't have that problem with sulfate of potash. See salt-index for granular fertilizer in below link:

https://www.alcanada.com/pdf/Tech_Bulletins/Compost_Fertilizer_Manure/Levels/141-Salt_Index.pdf

I located the pdf file of Lilly Miller for tomato NPK 5-10-10, Lilly Miller for bulbs NPK 4-10-10, and Lilly Miller all purpose NPK 10-10-10 and they ALL CONTAIN muriate of potash, salt index of 116. I can't locate the pdf file for Lilly Miller for roses, and Lilly Miller for Acid-plants like previous years. From below link, ingredients for Lilly Miller NPK 10-10-10 are: "Derived from dried poultry waste, alfalfa meal, ammonium phosphate, urea, muriate of potash, calcium and sodium borate, iron sucrate, manganese sucrate, sodium molybdate, zinc sucrate. *2.1% slowly available nitrogen from dried poultry waste and alfalfa meal."

http://lillymiller.cvt.int.central.com/labels/LillyMiller/LM_AllPurpose_4lb_300029054.pdf

Ammonium phosphate has low-salt index of 20 and provides SOLUBLE phosphorus and nitrogen, that's why it's MORE effective than blood meal & bone-meal in spring for roses. Blood meal needs warm temp. to work, and bone-meal needs acidic rain to break down. Bone meal fertilizer is best in the planting hole, since it gunks up on top even with tons of rain.

Lily miller granular products are STILL worth buying for alkaline clay since it has many trace elements added, along with SOLUBLE phosphorus rather than bone-meal.

I finally locate the pdf file for Lilly Miller Acid fertilizer NPK 10-5-4, yes, it contains muriate of potash (high salt-index of 116). http://lillymiller.cvt.int.central.com/labels/LillyMiller/LM_RhodyEvergreen_30lb_300029089%20.pdf

GUARANTEED ANALYSIS: Total Nitrogen (N) 10% 1.0% Ammoniacal Nitrogen 5.9% Urea Nitrogen 0.7% Other Water Soluble Nitrogen 2.4% Water Insoluble Nitrogen* Available Phosphate (P2O5) 5% Soluble Potash (K2O) 4% Sulfur (S) 3% 2.5% Free Sulfur (S) 0.5% Combined Sulfur (S) Boron (B) 0.02% Iron (Fe) 0.10% 0.01% Water Soluble Iron (Fe) Manganese (Mn) 0.05% 0.007% Water Soluble Manganese (Mn) Molybdenum (Mo) 0.0005% Zinc (Zn) 0.05% 0.004% Water Soluble Zinc (Zn) Derived from dried poultry waste, cottonseed meal, ammonium phosphate, elemental sulfur, urea, muriate of potash, calcium and sodium borate.

Some pics. of roses in my garden fertilized with Lilly Miller for Acid plants NPK 10-5-4. My clay is rock-hard so the sulfur in this fertilizer helps to make nutrients AVAILABLE to roots, rather than gunking up above like Tone's or bone-meal. Below is Radio Times as 2nd year own-root, fertilized with Lilly Miller for Acid plants NPK 10-5-4

Cluster of Sweet Promise hybrid tea with Lilly Miller Acid plants 10-5-4. Hybrid teas rarely do cluster-blooming unless the fertilizer is potent.

LOUSY RESULT when I tested Plant Tone NPK 5-3-3 with feather meal, pasteurized poultry manure, cocoa meal, bone meal, alfalfa meal, greensand, humates, sulfate of potash and sulfate of potash magnesia.

The problem is bone meal for phosphorus, which can't move down dense clay. One study showed that phosphorus from bone meal moves down only 1 inch. per year !! Also sulfate of potash magnesia gunks up, my sticky clay is tested high in magnesium, and I need SOLUBLE potassium, rather than sulfate of potash magnesia. U of Colorado stated that bone meal can't be utilized when pH is above 7. Bone meal has INSOLUBLE calcium and phosphorus, NEED ACID TO BE BROKEN DOWN TO SOLUBLE FORM USABLE BY PLANTS.

Plant Tone is BEST FOR THE PLANTING HOLE, rather than applied on top. I should had bought Lilly Miller for tomato at NPK 5-10-10 with SOLUBLE phosphorus and SOLUBLE potassium for more blooms.

Muriate of potash MOP or potassium chloride is MORE SOLUBLE (moves down immediately through dense clay) than sulfate of potash SOP, see excerpt from below link:

https://nutrien-ekonomics.com/news/potassium-fertilizers-muriate-of-potash-or-sulfate-of-potash/

"Both MOP and SOP contain a high potassium percentage (60 or 62 percent as K2O for MOP and 50 percent K2O for SOP). The potassium in both fertilizers is in the same potassium form, and both salts are water soluble, though the water-solubility of potassium sulfate is about one-third that of potassium chloride. The biggest disadvantage of potassium chloride is its high salt index (116 for MOP 0-0-60 vs. 46 for SOP 0-0-50)4 and chloride content. Potassium sulfate is often preferred over potassium chloride for some chloride-sensitive crops such as potatoes, tobacco, some vegetables and fruits, some tree crops like almonds, walnuts and citrus."

https://nutrien-ekonomics.com/news/potassium-fertilizers-muriate-of-potash-or-sulfate-of-potash/

From Straw: Lilly Miller for tomato at NPK 5-10-10 has salty Muriate of Potash, but it's LOW in salty nitrogen at 5. Nitrogen is best slow-released & less salt like alfalfa meal or blood meal. Alfalfa meal gives immediate growth thanks to its growth hormone, plus calcium & nitrogen.

I tested Miracle-Gro Shake 'N Feed Tomato, Fruit & Vegetable Plant Food at NPK 10-5-15 . Ingredients are: kelp, earthworm castings, feather meal, and bone meal. LOUSY RESULT: CAN'T EVEN DISSOLVE IN A BUCKET OF ACIDIC RAIN WATER AFTER 1 DAY !!

B cs - That's great information about the fish fertilizer!! Thank you so much!!

Teresa - when you're talking about molasses are you talking about the cooking molasses. I think I asked you this already...but I can't remember. :)

Thanks, Teresa!! :) :)

Man, did you do well in recommending Lily Miller fert to Diane...her roses are amazing!!! But it didn't work for you. Black roses and brown edging. Yeah, not so good!

I've never used bone meal or blood meal. Should I bother?

Oh, that's a BEAUTIFUL Radio Times bush!!! I would LOVE to have that growing here!! Really well grown!!!

Really? LOL that is pretty crappy...MG shake n' feed Tomato.

I was thinking as I was out in my garage taking leaves/buds off of my roses that maybe for new roses so that the bush can more quickly build a nice structure of canes (not wimpy, scrawny ones) that I should use more potassium...and then when they're taller and STURDIER in the later part of the summer...cut back or stop. I had some roses that really got sturdy canes...super sturdy...and yes, like you said, they didn't bloom very much. So obviously I gave them too much K. But, if I use that as a strategy for the first year...don't worry about the blooming, but add a solid structure instead. And then the next year...the structure is there already...so I can cut down on the potassium and have more blooms. Thoughts? Cause it takes my roses a long time to get big enough to have lots of roses.

Carol: Agree with your approach. High phosphorus is for branching = more blooms. When I was absent-minded and planted La Reine in the ENTIRE BAG of compost cow manure, it had more blooms than leaves (20+ bloom for a 1 foot-tall plant), but canes ARE THIN like wire, then it blackspot badly & lost all leaves after blooming.

In contrast, high potassium is for THICKER CANES, and thick cane can pump out cluster-blooming better. When I tested high-potassium, I get 6 to 8 blooms in CLUSTER PER THICK CANE, rather than ONE BLOOM PER THIN STEM like high phosphorus.

I used too much muriate of potash (potassium chloride at salt-index 116), that's why red roses turned black and beige blooms had brownish edges. Also muriate of potash in Lilly Miller is 3 TIMES MORE SOLUBLE than sulfate of potash, it's just too much at once, thus creating the dark-edges on blooms. I tested 100% muriate of potash, which is EVEN STRONGER than Lilly Miller.

Potassium shifts blooms to the blue-zone, thus creating the above effect. In contrast, phosphorus shifts blooms to the red-zone, so phosphorus is best used in equal amount as potassium like Lilly Miller for tomato at NPK 5-10-10. Phosphorus mobility is a 1, it moves down much slower than potassium (a mobility of 3), so roses STILL get more potassium than phosphorus (per U. of CA at Davis rose tissue analysis).

As to bone meal mixed in potting soil, yes, it has both calcium and phosphorus, plus many trace elements. But nutrients in bone meal can't be released unless pH is acidic below 7.

Getting pH lower is no problem in the first part of the season. Harder in August and beyond...but I have sulfur for that part. Thanks, Teresa!

So...I ordered a grow light (has a clamp) for my streptocarpus plants. After one day of use, the leaves are a deeper green, have more structure to them, and just look overall healthier. So, I'm thinking this would be really good for seedlings of any kind. Hopefully I'll get some viable seeds from my Stainless Steel X John Davis hip. Then I'll use this grow light. It has red and blue light that it emits. It has a timer. One day and I'm so happy with it!!

Grow Light for Indoor Plant, Semai 4 Head Plant Light Auto Timer 10 Adjustable Level 3/9/12H LED Grow Light for Potted, 40W 360 degree Adjustable Goosneck Plant Light with Clip.

Sold by: SemaiTek

Someone please help me. I am working on amending a new rose bed. Dug a deep hole, added coarse soil, perlite and some clay breaker too. When i pour water, its still not draining. Do i just keep amending with more of these stuff until the water drains? Any other amendments to be added?

Mystic, using a broad fork (look it up) and Humic acid on a clay bed will really help.

Thanks Sheila. will try

Is it something like this?

https://www.amazon.com/Organic-Liquid-Humic-Acid-Concentrate/dp/B00CSAMK4E/ref=asc_df_B00CSAMK4E/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=216531775325&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=12946314162608465082&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9007576&hvtargid=pla-383168472954&psc=1

Mysticwaves: I look at above link, it's $16 for 1/4 gallon of humic acid. So I looked up the acidity of humic acid: it's a WEAK acid: "Humic substances are weak acidic electrolytes with carboxylic- and phenolic-OH groups with a micelle-like structure ."

I doubt that something mildly acidic can dissolve dense clay or rock to help with drainage. Even vinegar can't break up my dense & poor drainage clay.

I have a spot that drains well if I pour water on top, but when I dug down to 2 feet, and pour a bucket of water, that doesn't drain. So that hole can only hold 2 feet of water, and no more. So I pour 10+ cups of EXTREMELY ACIDIC GYPSUM (with 21% sulfur) and broke up the clay at bottom of planting hole. Water drains a bit faster. THAT WAS NOT ENOUGH. Two roses died in that spot: First it was Versigny, then it was Old Port after zone 5 winter & tons of rain in fall that made them dropped all leaves.

I came back to that poor drainage spot this year, dug down to 2 feet, poured a 5-gallon bucket of water, it won't drain. I kept digging and THREW AWAY 2 wheel-barrels of dense clay and rocks (at least 200 lb.) Finally the 5-gallon of water drained well. It was 2 hrs. hard-work with a pitch fork, a sharp-shooter shovel (much longer than regular shovel), and a regular shovel. The pitch fork is to pry the rocks out, the sharp-shooter shovel is to dig deeper than 2 feet, and the regular shovel is to lift the icky-clay out of the hole.

I filled the bottom with coarse sand & put clay on top, and planted Queen Nefertiti. So far it keeps all the leaves despite week-long rain early Oct.

Conclusion: No acid nor amendments can dissolve the rocks and dense clay below, the best solution is to REMOVE the dense layer below. It's hard work but worth it.

Amendments DO NOT work with dense & rock hard clay at bottom. Already killed a tomato when I mixed perlite with clay for drainage. Tons of gypsum doesn't help. Coarse sand at bottom doesn't help. The best solution is to remove the dense clay and rocks below. Below is how my clay in IL is like:
https://www2.illinois.gov/dnr/education/Pages/ILStateSymbols.aspx

"Drummer silty clay loam is a rich, fertile prairie soil that was declared the Illinois State Soil in 2001. The topsoil of drummer silty clay loam is about 16 inches deep and is very dark brown to black in color.

The bottom layer, or substratum, starts three and a half to five feet below the surface. This layer is dark gray with spots or “mottles” of OTHER colors and is made up mostly of soil material called loam. Few plant roots can penetrate this soil."

Below is how the top 1 foot of my clay looks like (Drummer Silty Clay).

Below pic. is the poor-drainage clay, at below 2 feet, roots can't go through this dense layer so I throw it away since it impedes drainage. "When it is very wet, it swells to retains water, which makes it difficult to work with. Over time, this poor drainage can also stunt plant growth." https://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-clay-loam.htm

Hello, This is Sheila's husband. I have used humic acid for Sheila's roses and in my vegetable garden. This particular amazon listing seems expensive. I bought a bag of humic acid powder like this: https://www.amazon.com/Granular-Humic-Acid-Powder-Organic/dp/B01HRCLJE4/ref=sr_1_14?dchild=1&keywords=humic+acid&sr=8-14. 1/2 cup of the powder mixes with a gallon of water. That mix is diluted 1/2 cup into 2 or 3 gallons of water. At this dilution it goes a long way.

The acidity of the mix is not the way it works. The microscopic particles work their way in between the platelike clay particles and serve to open up channels for water to move through. Holes in the clay soil greatly help give a pathway for the humic acid particles to get around in the soil. A broadfork is a great tool for opening up holes in the soil, but it is kind of expensive and it helps to be a big guy like me to work it into hard soil. A spading fork also work well (a tenth of the cost and easier to use) but the holes won't go so deep.

Humic acid is an excellent soil additive and it is all but impossible to put on too much. It chemically all but inert and inexpensive at that dilution.

Best of luck,

Joe (Sheila's other half, or considering size her other 2/3).

I dunno, I drive by acres and acres of productive farmland and I’m pretty sure the farmers are not digging down 3 feet and removing the native soil. This goes for certified organic farms as well as non organic. How far do most rose roots grow? I was taught to not dig in amendments, it creates a bathtub effect, only to top dress. Sheila’s suggestion of adding humid acid was a good one, I did see liquid products available too.

I'm NOT ON FARMLAND, I'm in a housing complex. Our 400 single-family home division was built in 2000, they stripped off ALL THE TOP soil, down to extremely dense-clay sub-level (filled with dolomitic limestones) to dig the basements. When all the houses are done, they top off with only 1 foot of top-soil, rather than "fertile farmland" of digging down 3 feet and it's good soil.

In my last house of acidic clay, it's an old house, so digging down 3 feet and it's still black clay. But clay is very slow to drain, and when acidic rain water pools up, even in fertile black clay, blackspots was a problem. Folks who don't have clay all the way down won't understand the importance of good drainage in heavy rain.

One singular method doesn't dictate for everyone, since everyone's top soil and sub-layer are different.

Below is a map across USA to check what type of soil one has:

From the above pic, I'm in the gray area, with Mollisols soil, "Mollisols are characterized by a significant accumulation of humus in the uppermost layer. They are highly arable soils used principally for growing grain and cereal crops." When my house was built, the builder stripped all the top soil down to limestones layer to build the basement, then top with only 1 foot of black clay (taken from cornfields nearby). From Wikipedia: "Mollisols' parent material is typically base-rich and calcareous and include limestone, loess, or wind-blown sand." True, I'm next to a limestone quarry, and below the top 1 foot of dense ALKALINE black clay is ROCK-HARD yellowish clay mixed with dolomitic stones (the size of grapefruits to huge watermelons).

Any particular method doesn't work for everyone, since everyone's top soil and sub-layer are different.

@strawchicago z5 Thank you for the helpful info. There an area in my garden that doesn't drain well and behaves like the way you said. When you said remove the dense clay, is it just for the rose hole or the whole bed? I hope just for the rose hole because replacing the whole area is too big a job for me. Helen

We have glacial till everywhere...I decided to plant in pots...I love this, because I can get roses that wouldn't survive outside here.

Helen: Your CA has less rain than my 40 to 38" of acidic rain in short 6 months of summer. We have heavy rain that cause flash flood in spring plus rainy fall. For your less rain climate, remove about 5 gallons of dense clay BELOW the hole is enough. Five gallons of water per week is needed for roses-grafted-on-Dr.Huey (Frank Gatto suggestion for his rose nursery in WA).

I once went out in heavy rain to adjust the overflow of my 6 rain barrels and I witnessed a 50-gallon of garbage can filled up with rain water in less than 15 min (from the overflow). So my roses near a rain-spout should have 50-gallons of drainage below it, which means digging out a larger area below for fast drainage in heavy rain.

I don't trust any products promoted on Amazon, even those with 4,000 good reviews. I once found a probiotics with 4000+ good reviews, and all of them were faked (from customers that never bought the product).

My sticky black clay is already rich in humus. When my house was built in 2000, I saw how thin the top soil was so I ordered 2 truckloads of top soil (humus rich black clay) to UP the top soil from 1 foot to 2 feet. Every year I dump at least 100 bags of grass clippings and leaves obtained from neighbors, plus kitchen scraps compost, plus biochar from burning branches. I buy at least 20 bags of black-top-soil from Ace hardware per year and top roses with that after pruning.

See below link on the myth of humic acid: https://www.gardenmyths.com/humic-substances-humic-acid-garden/

"Benefits of Humus vs Commercial Humic Acid

Commercial extracts from coal produce humic acid. Science has shown that humus in soil is beneficial, but science has NOT shown that the commercial product is beneficial.

A recent review published in 2018 said, “There is currently NOT enough research to explain possible mechanisms and accurately predict when (commercial) humic materials might prove beneficial”.

In 2002, a search for studies supporting the use of humic acid on turf, found only ONE study which reported that “of the 14 non-nutritional growth enhancers studied, including several humic acid and humate products, NONE affected bentgrass root length or root numbers. ”

Iowa State University looked at root growth for soybean and corn in laboratory trials and found mixed results. “These effects seem to depend on the concentration and source of the substance and on the plant species. ” Humic acid increased potato yields and quality, but only three of the brands tested had an effect.

Dr. Daniel Fernandez, an expert on hydroponics had this to say, ” The literature (for hydroponics) is also quite consistent in that the largest effects are often seen on root growth rather than on shoot growth or mass.”

How much carbon is added to soil? A typical application adds about 15 lbs/acre. Compare that to the residue of a typical corn crop of 4,000 lb/acre. The amount is insignificant.

Liquid humic acid is NOT going to be very effective since the amount of humic acid applied is far to small to improve soil.

Solid humic acid makes a bit more sense since you are applying a larger amount of the product, per given area.

The commercial products don’t resemble natural humus or humic acid found in soil. If you want to add organic matter to soil, use traditional material, like manure and compost. We know they work."

https://www.gardenmyths.com/humic-substances-humic-acid-garden/

@strawchicago z5 Thank you. I’m glad to hear that. Helen

I use EasyFeed Liquid Concentrate along with Magic Mills Rose Mix for my roses. It works well so far.

Here's a random observation for the morning...I only took 2 cuttings this fall to try and root over the winter and both appear to have taken. After reading one of the other threads about biochar I took a handful of small chunks of burnt pine from the fireplace and mixed that into the soil when I planted them. That is the only new difference from all my other failed cuttings (I do not have a good success rate! These are #4 and #5 out of hundreds of attempts). It may or may not be what made them both work, but I thought it was interesting to note.

Thank you, Joey, for that tip. biochar is high in SOLUBLE calcium and potassium, essential to form roots. I'm collecting branches for a 2nd burning of biochar (pH 8.6). I'm using acidic rain water at pH 4.5 to water my rootings .. a few breaking out in blackspots due to acidity, so biochar will help with my rootings through winter.

Wow, Joey...that's quite the evidence for Straw's biochar method!!

Hi all! happy new year! I just got my lab results for my soil test!! Wanted to post here to see if you guys (experts) have any recommendation:

Seems the soil is pretty good, but my roses barely grew or flower, I suspect is because of the clay and how much rain we had. I even had to dig one out to save it. once I dug out the poor thing had allot rotted with all the water that was below in the roots...

any info would be much appreciated!

Roses do love sun. They do not love root competition from trees. Your soil looks great on the report. Roses do want good drainage. Clay can be very nutritious. Pots can work, in the meantime, if your drainage needs work.

Thank you Sheila! I might amend the soil better this year for the new roses. Lets hope that these batch takes off!

Where did you have your analysis done? I would suggest you post your results on the lawn forum with a request for interpretation - they will give you detailed info. Let them know what you are growing & they can adjust recommendations. I think they usually like the Logan Labs test but I’m sure they can help! Looks pretty good to me 🙂

Hi @Dingo2001 - Z5 Chicagoland i did it with Rutgers university... I really wanted to know the soil composition but not sure if I didn’t request or wasn’t part of it. Still happy as now I at least have a better idea of what I’m dealing with Instead of just adding stuff blindly

All soils benefit from organic matter, Ceres. Compost is great for all soils. Just top dress once or twice per year.