I am also looking forward to more posts on this thread. The ph idea is very interesting. I have very acidic soil (super blue hydrangeas with no additives) and my roses grafted in dr. Huey and Multiflora both seem to perform very well. At least 60 percent of my roses are Austin’s grafted in dr. Huey and they never wilt or have any need for ph correction here.

@strawchicago z5 But the suckers coming out of the sick plant have thorns. You said earlier that Dr Huey does not send up suckers? So that seems to rule out my plant using Dr Huey as a rootstock?

You said something about roses with "glossy dark-green foliage" being varieties that like alkaline soil. Is that a correct generalization? I mean if I have roses that have glossy green leaves, that variety probably wants pH over 7?

Most people do not realize how much extra UV radiation a plant gets when it is against a light-colored wall. I have lost rhododendrons that were "in the shade" but up against a white painted wall that just created too much reflected light. In the case of roses, that extra light is probably a good thing.

Your plants look great, and there is lots of healthy new growth.

Diane: Is your soil loamy & fluffy or dense clay? How old are your roses? For both own-root roses and Dr.Huey-rootstock, the first 2 years of growing cluster-root they prefer slightly acidic & loamy, but as they get older, their roots get hard & woody and they prefer hard & alkaline minerals. Weste's roses are 30-year-old, and many of my own-roots are a decade-old.

That's a big contrast to the 1st-year-roses with cluster-root that thrive in fluffy & acidic medium. I'm looking out the window, none of the cluster-root petunia nor marigolds wilt in 95 F heat, but big trees here wilt in the heat with their woody & chunky root (less efficient in water-up-take than tiny cluster-root).

There's a British guy in San Francisco that did an experiment in his clay to prove that mixing 50% wood-chips into his dense clay help with water-up-take and prevent wilting. So the texture of the soil is another factor. My neighbor, a Ph.D. in biology & botany mixed pine-bark into our rock-hard clay to improve water-up-take and his tomatoes are very perky in the heat. Soil can be acidic and dense, or acidic and loamy (better water up-take and less wilting in heat). If I draw water from thick mud (dense clay) or water from a glass of fluffy particles mixed in, water-uptake is faster from the loose solution than from the dense & thick clay (like pudding).

@strawchicago z5 As long as the soil is being mixed with bark, I could understand that result. A lot of good soils have bark as a base component. But you would want to strictly avoid using sapwood. That has totally different characteristics and would also rob nitrogen from the soil. Unfortunately, many products being sold as bark - and certainly the results from what tree-trimmers do - is loaded with white sapwood.

Westes: My rock-hard clay prevents Dr.Huey from suckering. But if a rose is grafted on Dr.Huey, the plant itself DECLINES after a few decades, and Dr.Huey will take over (He has thorns).

Yes, my experience with 130 own-root roses: the dark green & glossy foliage like Evelyn and Savannah prefer alkaline pH as their root mature into woody & chunky at year 3 and beyond. Hybrid tea Double-Delight (dark-green leaves) has a reputation of black spots in acidic rain (Double-delight IS VERY SENSITIVE to acidic rain). Mine is 5 year old and it's doing well & no black spots with bio char (pH 13) applied.

Since your roses are 30 year-old, the rose-bush gets too woody and is LESS PRODUCTIVE than when it was younger. Since the own-root-plant gets weaker with age, Dr.Huey-rootstock will take over.

For own-root roses, the first 2 years they like it slightly acidic & loamy with their cluster-root (like petunia or marigold), but as own-root matures, their root GET HARD & WOODY like a shrub, and they prefer HARD & alkaline minerals.

I never have to UP the pH for my own-root roses when they were under 3 year old. Only when they are OVER 3 year-old that their root go from hairy-cluster to chunky & woody.

Same with Dr.Huey-rootstock in its youth ... I killed Young-Lycidas (grafted-on-Dr.Huey) when I planted that in rock-hard clay (pH 8). In its 1st-year, it could not grow "cluster-root" in rock-hard-clay so it died through winter. But the 20-year-old Dr.Huey-root-stock that I dug up had HUGE WOODY root to secrete acid to go through rock-hard clay.

Westes- I also garden in zone 9 SFBay area (Marin county near the Bay - approx where are you ?) Please post more pictures: 1) of the entire bush, 2) of a long shot showing the bush and the redwood tree and anything else around it, and 3) a picture showing the entire bushes of the roses you say are not doing well either, in whatever context they are growing in. it sounds like a general problem - not specific to this one bush. It also sounds as if this bush is not a TEA rose, but is an older Hybrid Tea rose. Do you know what kind of roses the other ones which are not doing well are?

I just think that before getting into the weeds worrying about PH, rootstock, etc., we should understand the layout of your garden better.

Jackie

@jacqueline9CA I am close to San Jose. The first photo shows the length of the rose garden, and the affected plant with the wilting leaves is the one on the right at the very end. The second photo shows the redwood trees, and the wilting plant is in the bottom right corner of that photo. The redwoods are getting enormous and cast a long shadow on most of the backyard starting around 2 pm. All of these roses look like dwarfs now, compared to a four-foot height and vigorous growth when they were in their prime. The knowledge about which varieties of roses these are is long lost. They were installed by a previous owner, who I knew, so I saw the plants at their prime.

Westes: Your roses look very good compared to hybrid-tea-grafted-on-Dr.Huey under acidic rain at nearby rose parks (black-spot fest). I have 3 Double-Delight (2 own-roots that died in my zone 5 winter), and one-grafted-on-Dr.Huey which is healthy in its 5th-year ONLY if I UP the pH with bio char. That grafted-Double-Delight was 100% healthy during its FIRST THREE YEARS, then it's prone to black spot after that .. Dr. Huey-rootstock gets woody after 3-years and produces more acid to go through my rock-hard clay. But the 1st-year-Dr.Huey-rootstock are wimpy and I have to plant them in fluffy & less alkaline soil.

Evelyn with dark-green & glossy leaves like ALKALINE only after 3 years as its root become woody. I root a bunch of baby-Evelyn to give to friends & family, and I use ACIDIC MEDIUM plus only ACIDIC RAIN-WATER at pH 4.5. Young roses have cluster-root that don't secrete much acid in their first 3 years, and they need loamy soil & can take acid well. A friend in Kansas (Serena) has been growing own-root roses for 15 years, she's right about own-roots are healthy in their first 3 years, then as their root MATURE they become more woody and produce more acid .. which is fantastic to go through rock-hard clay, but bad during tons of acidic rain.

LOOKING OVER YOUR PIC. It looks like the trees are STEALING WATER from that rose !! I had Golden Celebration near a cherry tree, and it wilted even when it got tons of rain. So I dug it up and found a bunch of tree's roots STEALING WATER from that rose. I used a pickax to chop the tree's roots. I spent weeks digging down to 2 feet and put cement blocks to stop trees' roots from invading. Then I planted other roses, and NO MORE WILTING for the past 2 years.

A possible clue to this situation might be found by looking at the garden from the other end. The rose with wilting leaves is on the bottom left corner. What is different about that plant is it has a circular ring of large stones around the perimeter, and as a result of that it has more of the mulch material than the other roses do. To the extent the mulch might be creating some acidity, this plant would have more of that.

@strawchicago Those trees are not just stealing water. Their roots are cracking my concrete patio, distorting the shape of the back yard, and in general they are a pain. I am asking a local worker to quote me on building a trench where the lawn meets the patio and we will sever roots and install large plastic sheets of root guards.

strawchicago: I will keep an eye on my roses from now own. My soil is hard acidic clay, so compacted that I can’t wash it off my shovel or shoes with the hose without lots of scrubbing. My roses are on the young side (4 years old range now) so maybe that’s why I have not noticed any difference yet.

Westes - thank you for the pictures! I think the smaller size and general decline you describe in all of your roses are because of the redwood trees - that is an entire grove! That is how redwood trees grow - in bunches - they need to be that way to thrive - it is their normal growth pattern. . It is impossible to grow roses under redwood trees long term - I have a friend who had exactly the same issues you describe - general decline, in her entire back yard where she had 40 roses, a few years after she put in a row of redwood trees along her fence line. It is not only that their roots are taking up a lot of water, but also their shade is growing. Those trees are babies as redwoods go, and will only get bigger and denser as time goes by. Also, it appears from looking at the roses, and your description, that they are all hybrid tea roses of 30+ years old. That is very old for hybrid teas. Old garden roses live for 100+ years happily, but modern roses not so much.

I do not have any idea why one of your roses is wilting, but if they are all declining, I would not focus on one rose if all of them are hardly blooming at all. If it was my garden, I would take out all of the roses and plant some shade loving plants which like to co-exist with redwood groves. You can look it up, but ferns, and rhododendrons (not modern ones which like sun, but the old ones which like shade - wild ones would be perfect). I would do some research first, of course. There are all sorts of shade loving plants which are compatible. Trying to grow roses in a place which has become rose unfriendly over a long time is just frustrating. You obviously have done a lot of work to take care of the roses and try to make them happy, but the surrounding environment is just not good for them. I hope you have some place on your property which gets full sun all day, and is not right next to any huge trees. Then you can purchase some new roses, and plant them, and have plenty of blooms and joy for all of your hard work.

Good luck - let us know what you decide to do.

Jackie

@jacqueline9CA Just to make it explicit, those roses do get about six hours of full sun in the Summer. For sure by 3 pm they are in the shade, and I agree this situation is getting worse over time.

By old garden roses, do you mean climbing roses, rambling roses, and rose bushes?

How many hours of sun do you think a rose needs to be successful? Are there any of these varieties that can do well in shade?

Unlike Jackie, I would like to continue focusing on the wilting, because it is the most fascinating aspect of this discussion.

Attributing the general decline to the reduction in sun to 6 hours a day is interesting, too. Up here in NJ, none of my roses get more than 6 hours a day - ever. Most get less.

Westes: Most of my roses are in 4 hours of sun, and the sun in zone 5 is MUCH LESS than in CA. I worked in CA before (near San Jose) and it was sunny EVERYDAY, versus only 93 days of full-sun and 98 days of part-sun in my Chicagoland.

If you google "StrawChicago and HMF", click on my JOURNAL tab where I listed a HUGE LIST of roses that can grow in partial shade.

Westes, Jackie is right that the bigger picture means that that area is going to those wonderful redwood trees. You will need to find a different area to grow happy roses. I have had trees encroach on some of my roses and they are winning here too, and they are not even redwoods.

Agreed with Shiela, Jackie and Straw.

I was googling about redwood and how their roots travel in widths and depth. It will grab as much water as it can and your roses will suffer worst fate. Redwood is beautiful tree .

Got to look at bigger picture now .

Think if this is happening to me what advice will you give me ? I think you will say, move your roses . It is only logical explanation.

My brother has Sequoia tree in OH. He has to move everything and it works out for best.

Best of luck ! 🌹

I am envious of westes’ free garden space. I have not a square foot to spare.

Nor mechanized equipment for those decades old bushes.

Start over with new roses elsewhere.

@rifis I am working on not having a square foot to spare. :)

@Plumeria Girl (Florida ,9b) or anyone else: can you describe what is the growth habit (and range of depth) for redwood tree roots? I am about to post a separate question on this because I am going to be building a trench the length of the yard and severing the roots and installing root barriers for subsequent growth. If I have to dig that ditch deeper than three feet, I cannot use an automated trench digger for the portion over three feet. That makes the job massively more expensive. But if the roots are at three feet, and I install a root guard that only goes to three feet, the roots will just dig down past the guard and then around it from the bottom.

Could you consider large pots, Westes?

It says here that redwoods have shallow roots that extend up to 100 feet from the tree.

https://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=22257

How far from the tree are you planning to install the root barrier? If you cut roots too close to the tree it could destabilize it and cause it to come down in a big windstorm. That is what happened to a big tree across the street from us. The roots were ruining the walkway to their house so they cut all the roots along the walkway to repair it. That fall we had a big windstorm and that tree fell in the direction that was away from the cut side. You could see all the chopped roots sticking up as the tree lay on its side across the street.

Stephanie that is the link I had also and a few others . But it is not wise to cut the roots at all. Like I said it is a beautiful tree and takes a long time to grow.

I was also wondering how far is the tree ?

@sheila Of course yes, I do a lot of container gardening. And it would be very interesting to transplant a few of these plants from the ground into a container and see how they respond.

@stephanie That is a valid concern about ensuring the tree is stable. The cut would be about 30 feet from the trees, but importantly it would be less than a 30-degree arc of the root system.

How close were the cuts to the tree you are describing, and how tall was the tree?

I am reading that Coast Redwoods have their "shallow" roots at five to six feet. If that is the case, it would probably just travel under existing concrete without disturbing anything. That would also mean my garden problems are probably being caused by roots of other trees, not the large Redwoods?

@plumeria_girl You cannot make a generalization that it is always bad or dangerous to cut a tree's roots. These are enormously adaptable plants and it has a 360-degree circumference in which to send out roots that are 100 feet long. If you have a reference that gives guidance about how much of a tree's roots are safe to cut and how far from the tree those should be, that would be worth looking at. But let's talk about facts not theories.

What I read online is the general guidance is to never cut more than about 20% of the roots. Additionally, measure the diameter of the tree and cut a minimum of three to five times the diameter away from the tree.

In my case, I would be affecting less than 10% of the roots (30-degree arc out of 360 degrees). The tree is five-foot diameter, and my 30-foot cutting distance is more than five times the diameter of the tree away from the tree.

One of the interesting things I am reading about Redwood trees is that they intertwine their roots with other Redwood trees. In my case, the "grove" is about three trees side by side. This means it is much more difficult for one of these trees to fall over because it is supported not only by its own roots but by the roots of its neighbors.

Westes: In my 10 years of posting, I never tell people what to do, I simply SHARE MY OWN EXPERIENCE. You know best about your situation, others don't.

When my house was first built 20 years ago, I was foolish to plant 20+ trees to block out the neighbors and the noise from the highway. My Mom told me "DON'T PLANT DECIDUOUS trees (trees that lose leaves), since their roots are harder to kill. She advised me to plant EVERGREEN trees, roots are easier to kill." So I planted a bunch of evergreen Norway Spruce, and a few fruit trees.

GOOD NEWS: The redwoods and firs do not shed their needles, as they are evergreens,

It took me several weeks to chop off the roots of cherry fruit tree (lose its leaves in winter). The roots of cherry tree are tough to chop, and it went deeper than 2 feet. I had to install cement blocks. Cherry is hard-wood. Its roots WENT UPWARD into my raised bed (2 FEET TALL and 40+ feet away). My 20-year-old cherry fruit tree is taller than my 2-story house.

My 20-year-old Norway Spruce tree is way taller than my house. Norway spruce reaches a height of 115 to 180 feet, versus 350 feet maximum for red wood tree. Evergreen tree's roots are softer-wood, and I was able to use a sharp-spade, plus a pickax to chop its roots (much bigger than cherry), down to 2 feet, then installed cement blocks at bottom, and plastic guard on top. The top 1 feet roots are SOFT and DID NOT go through the plastic for the past year. Took me only 1 week, much easier than hard-wood cherry. I did all the work by myself. Husband did only 10 min. of chopping the main root.

I had a bunch of pots near the spruce tree, and its roots WENT UPWARD through the holes to invade my pots.

However, the above work is nothing compared to the pain of ripping AT LEAST 6 INCH deep grass-roots to make a rose-bed. Grass' roots here are very deep in alkaline clay. The rosarian Karl Bapst gave me the fantastic tip of buying "MULCH FILM", very thick plastic strips 4' wide x 50 feet long to SOLARIZE the grass for 5 months. The plastic strip robs the grass of water, plus the grass is "cooked" under the black plastic under hot sun. In spring I pulled off the plastic, and the grass plus its deep roots decomposed into fluff (no need to pull up the roots).

To make it easier to chop off the roots of a tree, I put black plastic strips ON TOP where I plan to cut the root (months in advance). I put bricks down to secure the edges so water can't seep through. It will weaken the tree's roots by denying rain-water. The super tall Norway Spruce was actually easier to chop off the roots since it's an evergreen (softer-roots), and it's up on a dry hill (more surface root). But the cherry fruit tree was twice harder to chop off roots since its roots were near the rain-spout and went deep.

More than 20 years ago I rented from a house which had a very old walnut tree next to it. Walnut tree has the deepest root. Its root UPROOTED the house (heaved the house UP on one side), so my bed was tilted near the tree (I kept sliding off my bed). I had to put wooden wedges on the low side to balance out the bed. Lots of mice and giant-winged-black ants (carpenter ants) inside the house since the tree's root cracked the cement foundation. When I moved out, that house was destroyed to build a new one.

A neighbor had two Willow trees planted at least 70 feet away from her house, to shade her LARGE BRICK PATIO. After 15 years, its root WENT UNDER THE PATIO (built on a thick layer of limestone rocks). The root traveled far away to reach THE SOURCE OF WATER: the house's rain spouts. It cracked the cement foundation of the house, so water leaked into the basement. The owner paid $5,000 to get rid of the 2 willow trees. The house is over $300K and it has been on sale for over a year, no buyer.

Trees' roots RUN FAR AWAY from its canopy in search of water. It's also more aggressive with more water. I still have a 20 year old River Birch tree to chop off the roots. Two years ago its roots stay put within its DRY BED with rock-hard clay. The minute I made that bed wet & fluffy by dumping leaves & grass-clippings (over 100 bags) the trees' roots became stronger & more invasive and crossed under the plastic border, dug down 1 foot.

westes: I applaud your efforts to thoroughly examine and understand your problem before making your decision as to what to do. (I see this trait in your other comments too.) And it is a complex problem without any obvious answer. The consensus above, coming from experience, is a good one, I think. Its the roots of the big trees. Instituting a solution can be very hard. The roses maybe getting old too.

A few years ago I decided to plants some vegetables in a section of my backyard where nothing was going on. This area was about 25 feet or so away from the drip line of several hybrid willows. There is plenty of sun in this area. The short of it was those vegetable plants grew so poorly. they could not quite take off, looked runty and wilty, plagued by insects and fungus. All this in spite of profuse watering and plenty of feeding and sunshine. I thought it was me, I just dont know how to garden. Or maybe it was those specific plants. Never mind that vegetable plants did great in other parts of the yard. I felt sad that no matter what I did I could not make those plants grow but I will figure it out, I thought.

Quite a few years later, after X Y and Z I know what it is. Its the roots of those trees. They are viciously hungry and thirsty. They are big trees growing with inconceivable vigor. They can suck up everything there is in the soil around them. Suppose the baby plant has roots in 2 cubic inches of the soil somewhere where the tree roots are as well. You would think the little plant can get what it needs from that bit of soil and tree can get what it needs from everywhere else. But no, the tree sucks away most of the good stuff from those 2 cubic inches before the little plant can get what it needs. No matter how much you offer, the tree roots can always take it all and more. The last four sentences are speculation on my part but I think its a model that fits. You cannot win with tree roots. The best case scenario is poor plants.

On the other hand in another part of my yard I have a huge, I mean gigantic, sterile horse chestnut over 150 years old. The trunk diameter is about 5 feet and the tree maybe 80 feet. There are lush looking hostas growing very well underneath it right up to the trunk. I dont even water this side of the yard. At the drip line and beyond hydrangea are growing just fine.

So there are tree roots and there are tree roots. I imagine redwood roots will compete heavily.

You are the one looking at the problem. maybe you could do a small experiment and see how that goes. Plant two fresh young roses one in a pot and one in the ground right near the wilting rose. Keep the potted rose near there to control for sun, shade air... The new rose in the soil will control for all soil issues. Take care of all of them well. See what happens over the next few months. Choose a rose that is not finicky. This way you will get some indication where the problem is coming from. Or if the roses that are in your garden are just old.

good luck, you will figure it out.

It's interesting how big & woody roots like trees LOVE hard-minerals. One site stated that the roots of trees GO THROUGH A ROCK, rather going around it. Same with woody & chunky root of Radio Times rose (an Austin that's prone to black spot). When I moved that thorny rose, I found its roots going deep down the rock-hard clay at bottom with mostly lime stones.

Here's an excerpt from below link: "Where the soil is sandy or loamy or the water table is low, tree roots grow deeper in search of moisture and the minerals it carries. Where soil is clay-heavy or water tables are high, even deep-rooting varieties like the big oaks grow shallower, more numerous roots."

https://homeguides.sfgate.com/trees-strong-deep-roots-39326.html

For what it is worth, I think the problem is/are the large redwood trees on the other side of the fence. If you think about where redwoods naturally grow, they are near the coast in damp, foggy conditions. They have evolved into trees that have roots that go out (and stay relatively near the soil), so they can get the water from the damp conditions where they "normally" grow. When I was taking my master gardener classes, we learned that some redwood trees will take up to 600 gallons of water a day. Yes, 600! Plus, those trees are "baby" trees when you think about how big redwood/Sequoia's get in their natural environment. They will continue to get bigger and take water wherever they can get it.

Root barriers won't work for those trees. Their roots will eventually go through the root barrier. Where I live, we just took out 5 large coastal sequoia trees that were planted next to the community pool. We tried root barriers, etc., and had to get rid of the trees or face redoing the pool on a regular basis. It was a case of wrong tree, wrong place. When my complex was built, the builder just put any old tree that was available in. We are slowly removing them and putting in more appropriate trees that will thrive in our hot, dry area than a coastal redwood.

No matter how much water you are going to put on those roses, the redwood trees will gladly drink it up. It is their nature to do so.

I would go with the suggestion of growing roses in pots in the area if those trees continue to stay (I am assuming they are your neighbors since they are on the other side of the fence). You won't have to worry about the roses competing with the roots of the trees for water.

Westes: I'm more concerned about the roots cracking up your patio ($2,000 replacement), or the foundation of your house, allowing mice & insects to get inside. Below is a link on the effectiveness of root-barrier, the link states that it has to be CONTINUOUS and at least 2 feet deep. That's why I stack up cement blocks (see pic.) below to make a "concrete wall", dug down to at least 2 feet. Working with sharp spade, shovel for digging trench, and pickax ... I stopped 20-year-old Norway Spruce tree at 4'11", 110 lb. and 58 year old, so it's possible if done right. Husband helped for 10 min. with pickaxing the biggest root.

Automated trench digger (with thick prongs in front) tore down a long asphalt 2-car-driveway in less than 1 hour. Your redwood tree is 3 times taller than my Norway Spruce tree (350 ft vs. 115 ft.) I would hire an automated trench digger to cut the surface root, down to 3 feet. Then I finish the job myself by chopping the deeper root with a sharp spade, and making a "concrete" wall below by stacking up THICK cement blocks. The problem with plastic shield is it's NOT deep enough and one can't stack plastic shield on top of each other like cement blocks. I also use smaller Holland bricks to fill in the uneven spots.

Amazon does sell tree root control barrier, but only 18" dept at $112. Cement blocks are cheaper and thicker. Below is a pic. of the blocks I use to stop my trees' roots:

https://homeguides.sfgate.com/effectiveness-tree-root-barriers-49620.html

4 in. x 11.75 in. x 6.75 in. River Red Concrete Retaining Wall Block. $1.38 at HomeDepot, and if you buy 126 or more $1.24 each.

Westes: I moved 10-year old rose (grafted on Dr.Huey) and it took 2 months to recuperate from the move, not worth it. Your roses are 30-year old and such Dr.Huey-rootstocks would need several GIGANTIC POTS. The last time I killed a 20-year-old Dr.Huey rootstock it took me 1 1/2 hour, it extended 4 feet away in all directions.

Here's an excerpt on protecting a concrete slab, with fantastic pictures: "The purpose of root barriers is to stop the roots of nearby trees from getting under the concrete slab, removing moisture, thus causing the foundation to settle. The engineering report called for the root barriers or “root walls” to be made of concrete 10 inches thick and three feet deep, or plastic with a minimum thickness of 20 mil (0.02 inch) buried to the same depth.

The contractor I hired uses corrugated vinyl sheeting similar to what you would use for patio or awning roofing. It is flexible enough to bend into the semi-circle design two of the root barriers called for yet thick enough to deflect new root growth.
The crew hand dug the trenches with “sharp shooter” shovels, and used clippers and axes to create a 8 inch or so gap with the tree roots cleanly cut on both sides of the trench. The vinyl sheeting was placed in the ditch and held upright while the trench was back-filled."

https://www.repairfoundation.net/protecting-a-concrete-slab-foundation-with-root-barriers/

Westes, My neighbors were reckless. They hired bricklayers that knew nothing about trees. They cut the roots on 180 degree side of the tree about 5 feet from it. The tree was planted in 1948 when all the houses on my street were built. It was a deciduous tree that I am unfamiliar with about 50 feet tall with a trunk 3 feet across. I was so nervous every time I walked by it. I was very relieved when it fell across the street without damaging anything but two 10 year old gum trees in next door neighbor’s yard. I no longer had to worry about it after if fell.

I found a nice summary of when and where to plant redwoods that had good information.

http://www.portolavalley.net/home/showdocument?id=6448

Westes: your plan is to cut 30 feet away from the trunk, correct? My 20-year old Spruce tree (1/3 the height of redwood) ... I cut the roots 15 feet away (1/3 of its total circumference). That was done 1 year ago. No problems with strong-wind here, such as the one that toppled my neighbor's 18-year-old Ornamental pear tree. If you want, I can post pics. of the resulting brick-border dug deep down.

I did the above research for my next job: cutting the root of a 20-year-old river birch, which is harder. The hard work is digging & cutting roots, the easy part is putting down bricks or plastic shield. Below is a link to Lowe's various sizes of corrugated roofing panel (to use as root-shield), it comes in 3 feet deep. Husband is against it since it's hard to cut ,,, so I'll stick with laying concrete-retaining-wall down to 3 feet deep:

https://www.lowes.com/pl/Roof-panels-Roof-panels-accessories-Roofing-Building-supplies/4294806361

@mustbnuts Can you describe how you installed the root barrier? Did the Redwoods just climb under the root barrier, or are you saying they pushed a hole through the thick plastic?

@strawchicago Sure, I would like to see photos of how you used the concrete blocks to build up the barrier.

Note that the plastic sheets sold as root barriers come in one, two, three, and four-foot heights.

I would be careful about using the roof panels as those might be made of corrugated steel. It would rot out quickly and lose structural integrity.

Westes: An automated trench digger that goes down 3 feet is still feasible. The majority of the roots are in the upper 2 feet. I saw a crew tearing up the neighbor's asphalt drive-way, they used an automated digger that tore up the hard drive way FAST like a fork going through soft cake.

Digging a long trench through my rock-hard clay by myself was the hardest part.The easiest part was to use a SHARP SPADE to chop a few roots DEEPER than 2 feet. The trench was too narrow & deep so I could not use a pickax. A 4-prong pitch-fork is handy to pull out the tree's roots from your rose-bed.

A deep spade is a the most powerful weapon against black spots, fast drainage is created when one removes the rocks below. If there are rocks below, it will delay drainage and black spots occur when ACIDIC rain-water pools up in root area. David Austin Rose Catalog recommends using a pitch fork in gardening. I can't garden without pitch-fork and LONG DEEP SPADE. My long-spade is 25 year old and it was better-quality back then. Newer ones on Amazon can't compare to the old-garden tools.

Some pics. of the brick-border dug down to 2 feet to stop my 20-year-old Norway Spruce tree from invading my garden:

Above is TRIPLE-PROTECTION against root-invasion. 1) Right most is DUG-DOWN-brick-border (using 4" thick cement blocks at 2 feet depth, and smaller bricks on top to level out. 2) To the left of it I fill with stones from my garden (the size of oranges & lemons). 3) I put LARGE SQUARE BLOCKS on top TO DENY THE TREE-ROOT (ON LEFT) OF RAIN-WATER. The pots on top used to have tree-root CRAWLING UP inside.

Norway Spruce tree roots VARY IN DEPTH. Where it meets my rose-garden, it stole water to be VERY DEEP, at 2 feet, so I use 3 bricks-level (large cement blocks at bottom, and a small Holland brick on top). Then as the root goes toward sunny & dry spot it became shallow (so I use only 1 brick level). That's the advantage of putting down bricks: ONE CAN ADJUST THE LAYERS OF BRICKS according to roots' depth. If I had done corrugated vinyl siding .. it would be IMPOSSIBLE to adjust the height of the barrier. Plastic Shield like corrugated vinyl siding comes in FIXED depth (like 2 feet or 3 feet) and it's major work to cut a hard-plastic sheet. I have lots of thick Plastic-edging in my garden (dug down to 5 inch., and it takes me 20 min. just to saw off a 5" section.

Above upper-left shows the Norway-Spruce root going into my rose garden. Below the pots there's cement blocks dug down to 2 feet. On the right-edge of the pic. is another barrier of cement-blocks (dug down deep). Where the 2 barriers merge in a V-shape I put more square blocks TO PREVENT RAIN WATER from seeping in.

This was done last year. This month I dug in my garden to plant new roses, zero Norway Spruce's roots came in. The barriers are 15 feet away from the trunk of the 20-year-old-evergreen tree.

So if I am going to convert the hybrid tea roses to containers, maybe this is an opportunity to also grow a different type of rose. I am not crazy about the leggy nature of hybrid tea roses, and to be honest, I like the old-style roses such as English roses that have complex petal designs. What are some varieties of rose bushes or climbing / rambling roses that would do well in containers? I could install a trellis in the container for the climbers to go up. But I would want varieties where there is dense leaf growth and roses right from the base to the top. What are some options?

Westes: For containers: if the roses are grafted on Dr.Huey, it would need a SUPER-TALL container since Dr.Huey is a long stick. Grafted-on-Dr.Huey has "tall & leggy growth" versus own-roots having a rounder and more compact bush for the container. Local rose park's Jude-the-Obscure is grafted on Dr.Huey, but it's over 7 feet tall (I would need a ladder to sniff it). In contrast, my own-root Jude the Obscure is 1' x 1', perfect for container. These Austin are best as grafted for alkaline soil or water: Jude the Obscure, Eglantyne, Lady Emma Hamilton, Jubilee Celebration, Mary Rose. But since you have slightly acidic soil & water, any Austins roses would be fantastic as own-roots (they are bred in acidic England with acidic rain). In contrast, Dr.Huey-rootstock was bred in DRY & ALKALINE California thus roses on Dr.Huey prefer alkaline soil & alkaline tap water.

My grafted-on-Dr.Huey PINK PEACE (bought cheap at store for $7) is tall with bare legs, but my OWN-ROOT Pink Peace is small & round & bushy (1/2 the height). I get TWICE more blooms from my own-root pink peace. Own-root can take a smaller container & uses less water but more blooms.

From Austin website and Austin rose catalog (FREE if one request on-line), it lists which roses are sold OWN-ROOT and which roses are best for containers. High Country Roses in Colorado ships roses out ANYTIME of the year, and all their roses are OWN-ROOTS thus stay small (no bare-legs) in containers. HCR has a few David Austins as own-roots: Heritage (low-thorn), Wise Portia would be good for container, but Queen Nefertiti might be too thorny. HCR has modern roses with many petals such as Easy does it (constant-blooming for container-folks in Pakistan, even at over 100 F).

@strawchicago z5 I will avoid grafted roses and stick with the native root.

Queen Nefertiti has exactly the kind of bloom I like. How big does that bush get?

I will examine that one but need about six varieties for this area.

Since you are growing in pots you can adjust your soil mix to suit. Make sure you use a mix for potted roses as opposed to the soil from your garden. Drainage is all-important.

@vaporvac what kind of container mix do you like? I have been doing experiments with various structured soils for roses. To my shock, one of the big winners has been moderately fine sand. My test baby climbing roses really took off in it. 5-1-1 mix is not doing well by comparison. Sand and peat make a really wet soil, but it does drain, and I guess roses really get thirsty. The key is to not leave the roots in pooled water, so I have to get soil with the right amount of drainage for the pot I select.

Most commercial mixes for roses - and most of the guidance online - is to load the planter with compost. That kind of destroys the ability to get well-draining structured soil. In any case, I am willing to experiment with a few different soils and see which ones do best over time.

I thought it would be interesting to show photos of the leaves of the other roses in the affected garden. Some of these look yellowish and make me believe there are nutritional issues, not just lack of water from Redwood tree roots. Maybe this is a pH related issue?

I have been out of town, so sorry I did not respond sooner. I should have mentioned, that in addition to soaking up so much water, and blocking some of the sun, redwood groves slowly turn the soil under them to be very very acidic - that is what they like. So, adding things to create better PH for the roses will not do much. That is why ferns, species rhododendrons, and tiny forest flowers like forget-me-knots are all you will see growing under redwoods when they get going (go to Muir Woods if you want to see for yourself). They do drop their needles, just not all at once. The needles add to the acidity. The forest floor of a redwood grove eventually becomes a soft, spongy soil of deteriorating redwood needles. I don't think you can outwit a redwood grove, or control the roots. Redwoods are giants, can live for thousands of years, and have evolved to make over the area around themselves into conditions they prefer. Fighting that would be very frustrating.

If you want to grow your roses in large pots, that sounds like a great idea as long as they get enough light. That way you can control the soil & water. Just put the pots on some sort of solid surface, so tree roots cannot invade them through the drainage holes. Make sure they are propped up on something, so they drain well. if I were you, I would start another thread, and ask your question again about what kind(s) of roses can grow in large pots - some can, and some cannot. If you grow old fashioned roses in our climate, like old tea roses and china roses, it is NOT necessary to have them grafted onto any other roots - I have a garden with 100+ roses, and I have never bought a grafted rose. Those types of roses in my garden bloom 10+ months of the year, too. Some very old roses get too big to grow in pots, but others are fine, and if you start a thread on here with that sort of title, (include the Northern CA part) you will get advice from people who grow dozens of roses in pots in this area, which is what you want, because they can tell you what has worked in this area in their actual experience. I would not take advice from anyone who gardens elsewhere - how garden plants act is just like real estate - LOCAL conditions are what counts, especially for roses. Good luck, and I look forward to reading your new thread!

Jackie

Thank you to everyone who contributed to this - now very large - thread.