@Stax and @R J,

No, there are not salt free water softeners. Water softeners, by definition, use ion exchange to exchange hardness ions with something else - usually sodium ions.

Stax, what you linked to is not a water softener. There's plenty of snake oil being sold - but there isn't a water softer that doesn't use ion exchange. Note they speak of "conditioning" not softening. They claim that the hardness isn't removed - but won't adhere to surfaces. This is completely nonsense. There are some industrial water treatment techniques to reduce scale buildup, but you don't see those in residential applications much. Even so, the OP asked for soft water, not scale reduction.

Carbon filters - such as what badabing2 mentioned-- do not remove hardness. They remove tastes, odors, chlorine and many VOC's but not hardness.

A Reverse Osmosis filter will remove almost everything, but they are typically used only for drinking water. They are high maintenance and waste a significant amount of water for the filtered water they provide. They can be a reasonable solution for drinking water - but generally not for whole-house.

Water hardness can be measured with a water hardness test kit such as a Hach 145300.

Water properly treated with a water softener will test less than 1 using such test kit.

Water treated with a carbon filter, magnetic fields, etc. will not show reduced hardness using such a test kit.

RJ, you are asking for something that doesn't exist.

There are many good choices for water softening that will reliably reduce the amount of hardness in your water using ion exchange. They all require salt. They will require the ion exchange bed to be replaced after about 15 years. I bought and installed one from Amazon that was built with a Fleck control valve for about $600. I can tell you that the modern water softeners using demand based regeneration use significantly less salt than older models.

There's also a lot of snake oil being sold in residential water treatment. You are a good candidate for snake oil - because you have it in your mind that can somehow remove hardness without any maintenance. That makes you a really good potential customer for "scale reduction" based on electromagnets, and all other form of nonsense. Don't fall for any of that.

The link I provided below takes you to a detailed description of the methodology of implementing the "Water Softener Alternative. Conditioner. Anti-Scale" - it includes some number of reviews and Google can lead you to some forum type discussions.

I have no experience with the system, and no axe to grind. However I would not suggest dismissing the system as "snake oil" or some other dismissive term.

Do your own research! lol

ECOWater brand.

@Stax

Straight up question - does the product you linked to remove calcium and magnesium from the water? If tested with a water hardness test kit, will it show a significant reduction in hardness after being treated with such a "conditioner"?

The answer to both questions is "No." BTW.

I have said there is no "salt free water softeners" that's a fact.

When you say start "doing your own research" what you really mean is looking on the web for easy to understand testimonials and such. There are a TON of companies who charge a lot of money for really questionable products in the residential water treatment area. Most of them are simply carbon filters.

The general public does not have the means to accurately verify most water treatment claims. Most of the time they don't even know what contaminate, or substance, they wish to reduce or remove. Often when people spend a lot of money on something - particularly if they don't have an objective measuring tool- they will insist that it's great. Without lab tests, most customer testimonials are completely worthless.

If a residential water treatment company claims "salt-free conditioning" that's a solid indication that it's snake oil. Claiming "Salt free softening" is fraudulent, but by changing "softening" to "conditioning" they have moved the goal post to something that has no definition, isn't measurable and isn't verifiable. "Conditioning" then means whatever they want it to mean. There have literally been water "conditioning" companies which claim to restore the past life memory of the water - and customers thought that was fantastic.

The question "Does the proposed treatment remove calcium and magnesium?" stops the goal post shifting and makes the claims easily quantifiable and verifiable using standard testing kits. Very accurate and reliable kits are commonly available for about $20. THIS is something that an end consumer can measure.

The most common, effective, and cost effective way to dramatically reduce calcium and magnesium from residential water in a whole-house application is a water softener - that by definition uses salt.

There are other ways to do it using reverse osmosis, or distillation, for example, but neither is cost effective in a whole house application.

If the goal here is to protect the fixtures and make water taste better then activated charcoal may be easier. If you really need soft water then that's the other recommendations above.

https://www.waterfiltersfast.com/5-Benefits-of-Using-Charcoal-Water-Filters_b_64.html

@badabing2

" If the goal here is to protect the fixtures and make water taste better..."

Protect the fixtures from what?

The OP said he had very hard water. Assuming "hard water" means the standard definition of high levels of calcium and magnesium carbonates, bicarbonates and sulfates, a carbon filter will not solve the OP's issues.

If the OP wants to remove chlorine, taste and odor, a carbon filter can be a good option - but I didn't hear that from them.

Charcoal seems to protect my fixtures from the carbonates - very hard water here as well.

I tried.

badabing2 - what I know is that carbon filters don't remove hardness.

Just for grins and giggles I tested water from my KDF/Carbon filtered drinking water and it was 22 grains per gallon using a Hach 5B test kit.

My water from my other faucets that are softened are less than one grain of hardness.

Jake - looks like I was wrong about charcoal removing hardness - out of curiosity what does your unfiltered water test (no charcoal)? It does keep my fixtures free of the 'hardening' so clearly I'll need to find out why.

Hi badabing2, do you easily see water marks, hard buildups, on your plumbing fixtures, toilets, tubs.. .etc with your charcoal filtered water ?

Thanks Jake The Wonderdog. What brand(s)/model(s) would you recommend for whole house water softening ? And, any thoughts on ECOWater mentioned by sushipup1 ?

Thanks sushipup1. I wonder if you know if ECOWater brand uses demand based/initiated regeneration in their systems ?

@badabing2 - My water tests 22 grains per gal with or without the carbon filter. Over 10.5 gpg is considered "Very hard".

@R J What you should know is that ion exchange water softening is a commodity process. There's no secret ingredient or special sauce. You look for a softener that is sized properly, has a quality control valve, has quality resin (10% crosslinked if you are on municipal water treated with chlorine) and that you can get support on if you need it.

As I mentioned, I'm a big fan of the ones available on Amazon with Fleck control valves. Fleck and Clack are two of the best valves out there. Mine was $600 shipped to my house. If you need salt delivery and such then use a local service.

The thing to watch for is that there just isn't a lot of money in commodity water softeners and so folks will try to sell you a lot of extras that you probably don't need. If you are just looking for soft water, you don't need whole house carbon and reverse osmosis drinking water. If you aren't careful you can be sold several thousand dollars in water treatment you don't need.

Thanks Jake The Wonderdog. I wonder your experience on the differences between Fleck and Clack controls. Pros/Cons ? By the way, any thoughts on this video and the comments ? https://youtu.be/PQ8cR_bZTa0

Both Fleck and Clack are very good valves. The Clack based system is not available on the internet. The Fleck 5600SXT is a great valve and there are a lot of them in the field.

I have no idea, we sold that house 4 years ago, but had 16 years of trouble-free service with our ECO.

@badabing2 Perhaps your filtration system has something else, such as magnetic field so that minerals wouldn't stick to pipes/fixtures too easily ? I saw this one: https://halowater.com/products/halo-5/

@Jake The Wonderdog I wonder your thoughts on Halo 5 from the link above. It's maintenance-free. Item 5. describes how this unit deals with hard water. It clearly says conditioned water which you emphasize and I also understand better now. So to me the water coming out of faucets will still have calcium and magnesium ? But if there is no or very little built-up because of the claimed, if true, molecular structure change, then that's a big improvement. Thoughts ?

Hi RJ,

I don't really want to chase down every link you happen on.

I've already given you the information that would allow you to know why that isn't a workable solution:

1. There is no maintenance free solution to your problem. That doesn't exist- for obvious reasons including that you need to remove calcium and magnesium. When you remove something it has to go someplace - hence not maintenance free.

2. This is a back washing carbon filter. It removes taste, odor, chlorine and VOC's. It is cleaned by back washing it. Eventually the carbon has to be replaced.

3. This is a particle filter. It removes particles down to the micron level. That eventually gets clogged and requires maintenance.

4. This claims to "condition" water - a big "heads-up" that it doesn't actually remove calcium and magnesium.

5. It uses magnets that supposedly does BS for scale prevention. Magnets, electromagnets, magnetic frequencies, are all bogus. There is no evidence ever to support that in a residential environment.

So, like so many "water conditioners" this is a carbon filter. It makes the water look and smell good - so the water is visibly improved, but it doesn't remove the hardness.

Do we note an agenda? You do not need to remove calcium and magnesium!

@Stax

By "Agenda" do you mean, "I am in Southern CA and water here is very hard. I am looking for a whole house water softener..." ?

If you want soft water that's exactly what you have to do.

Unless you want snake oil that promises all kinds of things that have no valid studies to back it up - NONE, I've checked on the magnet stuff before - then go for it.

Look, again - ion exchange water softeners are a known commodity. There are very good, scientifically sound, explanations on how they work. The results can be tested quantified and verified. There's no "faith" or guessing. You can measure the results with a test kit.

Show me ANY of the proposed alternatives that don't remove calcium and magnesium that can say the same thing. There isn't even a valid scientific study on how magnets are supposed to work - let alone actual controlled experiments demonstrating their effectiveness in a residential application. This is after many years of bogus claims. There are some limited successes in industrial applications.

@Stax, you have no idea what you are talking about.

@Stax

When you exchange cash for something, you typically get something pretty measurable in return:

For example, you get a 10 gallons of gas, or 40# of dog food, or an ounce of gold at a certain purity. We measure, quantify and qualify -in detail- what we are getting in return.

Religion, and unfortunately residential water treatment, are the exception - where people give up good money on promises and faith - and often get cheated.

Good water treatment isn't built on faith or promises. You test the water for what you want to remove or correct, you apply the proven treatment for that issue, you measure the results to confirm you have done what you intended. No faith or BS. That's how it's done.

If you have hard water, and you want to correct that for your house, an ion exchange water softener is the proven treatment. It's measurable and quantifiable - you know it's working. Show me another system that does that for a whole-house residential application.

@Jake The Wonderdog If I don't want to see and clean on a daily/weekly(while monthly is probably an acceptable frequency for me personally I would certainly like a longer frequency) basis all the build-up on the plumbing fixtures/tubs/stainless steel sinks...etc from hard water I wonder if there are different ways other than ion exchange. Thanks.

https://youtu.be/NIIAwWolnLQ

Just had to replace our softener, an old Culligan . It was ok, but their customer service was awful. Awful. In multiple ways. We went with Rayne, this time. In fact, the largest size residential softener, rented for $50/mo, with 2 months free. To purchase it, would’ve been a little more than half Culligan price. A no brainer.

San Diego water tastes so bad, no one drinks it anyway, so no worries about drinking a little salt. Bottled water rules here, and/or those other very expensive filters. But even those folks buy bottled water as well, I often notice.

Edited to add: unlike Culligan, our experience with Rayne was there was no upselling at all. I asked about single sink filtration, but decided not to do that at this time. I’m no scientist, but a lot of my web research always leads me back to what Jake has written about here, over the years. We need to take care of our pipes here in So Cal. Water leaks can do hundreds of thousands in damage. It has happened to a few homes in my neighborhood over the past 15 years. And as a consumer not interested in diy’ing plumbing and tech stuff, I need customer service. Rayne has been great, so far.

Thanks Mrs. S. What is your primary goal for getting a softener ? After some more thoughts mine is to not see/clean the build-up on the plumbing fixtures/tubs/stainless steel sinks...etc. My secondary goal is make it so that I can drink it after carbon filters like Brita.

@Jake The Wonderdog It seems very easy to get a Fleck softener like online but not Clack. You happen to know where to get a Clack ?

A softener with a Clack valve is only available through dealers. Clack prohibits their equipment from being sold online.

Does Clack prohibit "dealers" from selling Clack online ?

https://www.discountwatersofteners.com/water-softeners/clack-pro-series-ws100-on-demand-water-softener/ Seems like a dealer but not sure

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Water-Softener-System-Filter-64-000-Grain-2-Cu-Ft-12-x-48-Tank-with-Clack-Val/324175346957?hash=item4b7a5b3d0d:g:vdgAAOSwiudcQE8~ Not sure if they are a dealer

@badabing2 Wonder if you finally found out why your charcoal keeps your fixtures free of the hardening ?! Thanks.

R J - I'm baffled on this too. Water here is quite hard but my fixtures stay free of deposits. Also the taste before is terrible and just fine after. I'm beginning to believe there's more going on than just charcoal. Here's the blurb...

https://rayneofsantacruz.com/portable-exchange-service.php

@R J - more info. This is the Resin Tank section in link below. Ion exchange is the explanation.

https://www.raynewater.com/blog/how-does-a-water-softener-work%3F/

@badabing2 Thanks for the links. For portable exchange service I guess they charge for initial install and also charge for regular scheduled exchanges as well ?

Save yourself some time, Jake is correct in this thread. There is a whole lotta snake oil water filtration out there - most of it is worthless. My favorite industry term is "water conditioner" - what does that even mean?

Virtually every municipal water supply is analyzed and chemically "adjusted" to make it pass standards. If you ever saw what the city of Denver does to its rocky mountain feed you would be aghast

Terrible tasting water and hardness aren't the same thing. If don't like the taste, you can get sink mounted RO filters. If you truly have hard water that is affecting plumbing (faucets, appliances) then get a whole house.

@badabing2

So looking at that, they are using a standard ion exchange water softener - except instead of regenerating it on-site they swap the tank out and regenerate it at their shop. That seems very labor intensive to me... but if it works, great. The point is though that it's using exactly the same process as a water softener.

@RJ

The first link you posted clearly says "Not available for online sales per Clack Corporation's rules." The second link is just waiting to be caught.

@R J

Rayne charges a $75 one-time install. They tap into the main for whole-house and there's a bypass switch on top for lawn watering and the like. Monthly depends on canister (e.g. usage) size - I pay $32 for monthly swap - they also do bi-monthly. The canister is just under 40" high.

Might check on nextdoor.com to see what solutions your neighbors are happy with. I like the ease of automated service. I'm sure Culligan offers likewise.

https://www.raynewater.com/

and @Jake The Wonderdog (and others) thanks so much for the education. Enlightening.

@delray33483 Thanks. I get the points.

1. It seems to me that "conditioners" only slow down the build-up which will still take place and eventually show up in plumbing fixtures/tubs/stainless steel sinks...etc as well as inside pipes. If they can do permanent changes on molecular structure to those hardening minerals so that build-up does not take place, then I don't really care if those minerals are still in the water.

2. Do you happen to know any softeners that have all these features ? Upflow regeneration, regeneration using soft water, precision/proportional/variable brining(using just enough salt I think is what they mean)

3. I think there are standard efficiency vs high efficiency water softeners. I think both Clack/Fleck are standard efficiency. You happen to know the criteria that determine the efficiency ?

I just talked to a plumber and he said salt or potassium would damage the water heater. Anyone have thoughts on this ?

@Jake The Wonderdog Thanks. Do you happen to know what classifies/categorizes a water softener as high efficiency ? In other words, what's the standard/criteria, if any ?

Let me be more clear:

I'm done. I'm convinced you are just wasting everyone's time.

@Jake The Wonderdog Thanks and have a good summer.

I read the long discussion... dealing with same dilemma for hard water and bad taste water in San Jose CA.

I am interested in learning what was the system you installed after all- a softener or a conditioner, (added a RO under sink?)and if it works for you.

Thanks!

itd3, lol. If you actually read the whole discussion, the answer to your dilemma should be clear.

I use a whole-house monthly service from Rayne (Santa Cruz area) - they replace a canister each month. They are in San Jose as well (CA, AZ, and NV). Still love it after 10 years.

https://www.raynewater.com/bayarea/

badabing2- thanks

drsaj- maybe I did not read it thoroughly enough. I am not sure what the bottom-line is on that matter...

Do you know what the difference is between various expensive branded water softeners that are salt-based? I quote from Puronics I got was $4000 while another installer quoted Ecomultiplex at $1700. Home Depot Rheem softeners are $400-600. Are the resin technologies and valves pretty much the same? It's very hard to find comparisons for what the difference is between all these companies. Some seem to just be rebranded Fleck hardware.

@Bob Ack

"Do you know what the difference is between various expensive branded water softeners that are salt-based?"

To be clear, all softeners are "salt based". If they don't use ion exchange to remove hardness ions and replace with sodium, it's not a softener. The answer to your question is "Not much". There are only a few major components to a water softener:

1. The control valve. Two of the best brand of control valves are Fleck and Clack. Both are widely available, reliable, and have a big installed base. Fleck is available on the web while Clack is not.
2. Resin. There are some different types of resin, depending on chlorine levels, iron, etc. At one time the best quality resin was coming from DuPont - but most is being sourced from China now.
3. The tanks, distributor screens, etc.

It's very easy to build your own softener using off-the-shelf tanks, resin and control valve -- and that's what many local water treatment folks do.

Since a good quality water softener with a Fleck valve can be purchased on Amazon for about $800, there just isn't a lot of profit to be made in that business. That's why there's been a boon in "High-End" water treatment that is mostly snake oil.