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Can I get some feedback on tree selection for front yard- Z9a Sunset11

Elle L
4 years ago

Hi, I am a newbie here and have scoured the tree forum for ideas and input I can use for my own space. I finally decided to make my own post. We have a front yard divided into two parts by the driveway, attaching pictures (please be kind we are renovating and hope to make things a lot more beautiful than they currently are). Our front is Western exposure and I'll be referencing the sections as if I were standing at the street looking at the house. On the right (South) side front we have a 36 year old Lace Bark Elm tree and two smaller Ash Trees planted by the previous owners. In the center left of the driveway was a raised planter with a 36 year old Sycamore that succumbed to disease and we had to have it professionally removed. We have since removed the raised bed there as it was really dated and an obstacle for the cars in the driveway. Which brings me to my dilemma. The entire left (North) side from the planter area on is SO barren. Its just lawn, nothing else and we lost all the nice shade the Sycamore cast over our front windows, not to mention the beautiful view from inside which is now of my neighbor's garage. However, I am afraid anything we plant will look dwarfed compared to our Elm on the right. I am a landscape amateur so I could be overthinking that aspect. The last variable to consider is that the neighbor to my left (North) has two large pines and pistache tree pretty close to our property line so I can't plant as far left as I would ideally prefer to because it would be too crowded.


Here is my preliminary tree plan: We loved the Sycamore that died, like LOVED, but the location in the center of that planter really did block our whole front door from the street. I don't know if it would be the best location to replant a large tree. I was considering planting a Platanus hispanica (London Plane Columbia) in the left (North) lawn area instead. I really love Cercis Canadensis (Eastern Redbud) with a multi trunk, and it is in our approved guide of trees, I was thinking back left lined up with chimney and in front of the courtyard. Do these two selections sound like they will work? Should I plant another tree in the center planter area close to the street? It feels like a mini wasteland but I don't know if a tree would be the best fit or just other plantings in that area. I was considering a Lagerstromia Natchez (White blooming Crape Myrtle) for that center. I don't want to block the front door but I also enjoy looking out to trees and green from my living room instead of street and neighbors.


I know this is a lot of information, maybe too much without enough detail, I don't know. I would appreciate anyone's input here. I did have a professional arborist come out for a consult and to make some recommendations but she was more in the camp of pick what you love, I just needed a little more direct guidance because we plan to be here a long time and don't want to plant the wrong thing. Thank you in advance and please let me know if there is anything else I can provide.





Comments (20)

  • Elle L
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    Another view of the left (North) lawn and neighbors trees along wall:

    My concern is not planting here and then her side changing drastically and losing all of the green/tree areas. Our neighbor on the right (South) side removed 5 fully mature pines from their front yard shortly after we moved and it is so barren now on the South side of the property. We enjoyed a ton of shade from those trees on the South side of our house exterior and interior and its totally gone. 100% their prerogative but I don't want to be caught in the same position in the future on this side of the yard.


    I tried to take a Pano picture showing the full width of our yard:


    I love our Elm, but seeing the picture it really covers our house! Although from our upstairs deck it feels like a tree house and is very private, which I love.

  • Christopher CNC
    4 years ago

    Your choice of trees, London Plane and Redbud, and their placement are sound enough. The Elm on the right could definitely be limbed up a notch to reveal the second floor terrace and more of the house.

    I'm a little sad to see the former planter box on the left is gone since it was formerly a pair. Oh well. I would lean away from planting a small tree in that bed and more towards a nice planting of low shrubs with perennial flowers. The new trees on the left side lawn will balance to the right in time and a center tree isn't really needed.

    If you do want a small tree there to screen the view, there has to be something more exciting than Crepe Myrtle for what I take to be California.

    Elle L thanked Christopher CNC
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  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    4 years ago

    If I was planting a redbud in CA, I would opt for the native one, Cercis occidentalis.

    Elle L thanked gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
  • Elle L
    Original Author
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    @Christopher CNC , thank you so much for taking the time to reply, I appreciate it. It's funny when you see your house in a picture you notice elements right away you sometimes otherwise overlook. I almost cringed seeing how much of our house is covered by the elm. We are a little gun shy on trimming it because we had someone come out when we first moved into the place who didn't do the best job on our Eucalyptus in the back. Totally our fault, we should have researched more. We took his word for it and were unhappy in the end, and after losing our Sycamore we've been really afraid to touch the Elm. I proposed lifting the canopy a bit to my husband right after taking these and was met with firm opposition. Unfortunately, we have a lot of really bad pruning jobs in our town and many trees end up looking butchered, so there's a fear there. But I agree 100%, I would love to see our house a bit more! Maybe I can ease him into the idea. :)

    We are really open re: the left planter area, and would also consider rebuilding something there like a new planter. The former planter was much larger than the one on the right and butt directly to the driveway with no buffer so it was really tight opening car doors when we entertain or park on that side. You'd think it offered symmetry but it really was double the size and felt off! It seems really barren to me currently though which is why I was considering a tree, but I think you're right about the other two balancing things more in time. I also like the low shrubs/planter idea, we would remove all the grass there and make it cohesive.

    We also added the pavers in the front of the house to make a sitting/courtyard area and I plan to border that with low shrubs/flowers so I wasn't sure if more would be too redundant in that center "median." It just is really stumping me! But thank you again for your feedback, I appreciate it and am glad the two trees I've had my eye on will be a nice fit in that area!

  • Elle L
    Original Author
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    Thank you, @gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9). We are actually in Southern Nevada. I have a neighbor on my street that has the most beautiful Eastern Redbud so that was my inspiration. I've seen a few more around town, but they aren't common. I prefer the size over the Western, though I know it's not native. We have a Southern Nevada tree selection guide and both the Eastern and Western Redbuds are listed as "bulletproof" options for us, which is why I chose the former since I prefer it size wise. But I will check into it a bit more on your recommendation, thank you!

  • krnuttle
    4 years ago

    What is the white area between the house and the area you have marked "Anything"?


    If it were mine I think I would consider taking out the side walk leading to the street, and the white area. This would de-emphasis the large garage, and emphasis the house The only thing the side walk is leading to is the mail box, which could as easily be accessed by walking out the drive. There already is a side walk from the front door to the drive.


    I would add a large flowering tree where you have the red box, and add some flowering bushes in the area where the white area and side walk are, again trying to emphasis the house not the garage. I believe I would trim back the tree on the right. This would show a strong point of the house the upper balcony area


    As I understand where you are thinking of placing the red bud, I think it is too close to the house, and too much considering you put a flowering tree where the red block is.

    You mentioned a london plane tree, I think something showy like a peach, pear, or crabapple. (If they will grow in your area.)

    Elle L thanked krnuttle
  • Elle L
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    Thank you for your reply @krnuttle I tried to edit my post to add more pictures but could not do so, so I apologize if I'm doing this all wrong. I didn't want to overwhelm my initial question with all the areas, but I guess I should have shown the area a little better. It's honestly a tricky space but the arborist/landscape designer we met with did help me map out a rough plan, I just wanted to get some feedback without paying for another consult just yet. I also don't know if this is the wrong area since it's the trees forum and now I am venturing into general landscape design...


    Here is a closer view of the white area, it's the dirt where we removed the previous raised planter. Beyond it is another patch of dirt that was cut out for the "courtyard" addition:


    This is close up of the courtyard area. My plan was to cut out the grass all the way around the courtyard and back to the side wall border to create a larger non-grass border/planting area around the courtyard. Like a living wall/barrier to separate the lawn and hardscape zones:


    I would place the Redbud in the bottom left corner of this border area. I should note we plan to have all the red brick painted white to match the house since the brown brick pavers clash. Which is why I thought of the color of the Redbud against the white house backdrop.


    This is me standing in the driveway facing the dead zone:


    This is standing in the courtyard area out to the street- nothing nice to see:


    And lastly, this is kind of squared up to the front door as close as I could stand to the curb (we were literally working outside during these photos, pardon our mess everywhere):


    I guess I was thinking London Plane since I truly loved our Sycamore that died and I love a true green tree. But that's why I wanted to ask here because I'm open to fresh ideas! I love the look of a Callery Pear like Chanticleer, but someone in my neighborhood has a Bradford and the smell kills me. That was my thought behind a Crape Myrtle like Natchez. I'm sorry if this is a little all over the place. My main goal was to identify the best tree placement and type for my yard/house and decide if should plant a tree in that middle space or what I could do to tie it together. It's all feeling hodge podge and overwhelming right now. Obviously I have so much work to do here.

  • Embothrium
    4 years ago

    Have you looked at the plant selection guide near the front of the Sunset Western Garden Book? There is a table of garden trees.

  • Elle L
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    No, I haven't @Embothrium thank you. I was using my Southern Nevada Centennial edition as a guide but I will definitely check it out.

  • krnuttle
    4 years ago

    With the your latest information on the white area, I would definitely put grass in that area, With a low bush like a rose of sharon, spirea, or other low bush.

  • Elle L
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    @Yardvaark firstly, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to shop that out so I could see it and thoroughly explain your feedback, I really appreciate it. Second, I do have some follow up questions to your post, but if you don't have the time/desire to reply, I do completely understand. I am just grateful for the initial feedback and I don't want to capitalize on anyone's time. Regarding our existing elm tree...I'm totally seeing the need to limb this up but I admit it's also very scary as I don't want to damage the tree. We inherited it this way as the previous owners did minimal maintenance. I am frustrated because I asked the certified arborist we hired what approach we should take with this tree and she told me that trees like this should only be minimally pruned with the smallest cuts possible and you never want to take large limbs out. But looking over these pictures my eyes are opened to how ridiculously large it looks covering our deck! I am afraid that the limb to the right you mentioned, however, is integral the tree at this point and don't want to totally stress it. I wonder if we could keep these limbs but really thin them up? Is that even a thing? I can have someone else out to take a look. Harder right now as we are in lock down. We were also told never to prune our elm after March 31st to avoid attracting the beetle that can spread dutch elm disease, so I'm afraid we have to wait until next year to fix this either way! Here is a picture of the elm closer up:



    And from the backside of the tree, note the left limb that is the right side from the street view is pretty connected to the main trunk:



    And regarding the street tree and redbud on left, from the placement in your mock up that's pretty spot on to where I was imagining them, so I'm happy I'm on the right track there. I am, however having second thoughts about the redbud only because upon seeing it I wonder if a tree there would block too much of the house creating something similar to what I'm currently dealing with on the right (albeit smaller scale with the size of the Redbud vs Elm). I'm really intrigued by your suggestion to curve the walkway, as this section has been totally stumping me. My husband strongly objects to curves because of our houses squared edges, but I am trying to show him the value of juxtaposition and contrasting lines. I agree with not wanting to close in the sides of the walkway, although I'll admit I was considering adding a front border at the street and planting there, so I'll definitely reconsider this. The one thing I'm not sure of though is continuing the pavers in the planting area in front of the courtyard. I've had my mind set on creating a little separation and privacy in this area as right now we are super exposed to our street. I want to sit out here and see my neighborhood but not be totally open to it, if that makes sense. I envisioned plantings in front of the courtyard that would create this soft separation, my husband has even suggested a low fence. So I don't know if I love the whole area being hardscaped. I tried a photoshop app on my phone so please forgive my shoddy attempt at this, but this is what I had in mind for that dirt area in front of the courtyard (not these specific plantings, but something mixed like a low grass, perennial shrub, and maybe dwarf evergreen shrub. Keeping things 3-4' max height and natural looking). I would wrap it around the whole courtyard towards the house and in front of the left brick wall. The dirt area here separating the courtyard from the walkway is 5' deep:



    But this is where I'm not sure if the Redbud would block off that left side too much. I think I would love the view from inside, but street view does it cover this side of the house? And then I thought well what if I didn't do the Redbud there, but maybe a cedar screen with some plantings so it's less of an obstruction but still living:





    I had really wanted to put a Redbud somewhere, just love them. Maybe in the center with the screen in the courtyard?



    But from straight on, I'm afraid it would block the front door too much. I cheated it left and forward a little here, but maybe that doesn't matter..


    And finally (yes!) do you have any other alternatives to grass in that middle section? I was hoping to remove the grass for something less water heavy since we are keeping the other lawn areas. I was also wanting to alleviate the water hitting the hardscape so much when watering as we have hard water and calcium deposits abound. But if the lawn would really be best to tie in the two sides of our property, so be it. It's already irrigated anyway!


    I know this is so much info. I am trying to be thorough but also without expectation as I understand this is a lot. We have already spent money on a consult and design advice with the arborist/designer so I was just hoping to have a better picture before paying for more. Thank you again!


  • Christopher CNC
    4 years ago

    The Elm: I think you could cut all three of the lower branches back to the trunk. They are not that big. That would significantly raise and change the shape of the canopy. The right branch in particular seems to go up more than horizontal. Maybe that branch can be kept and limbed up to balance the canopy. The back side branch I can't really tell where it is headed. I know nothing about timing, beetles and Dutch Elm disease.

    Keep the redbud tree. No to the screen. Planted at a diagonal from the front left corner of the house like yardvaark said will give some screening to the courtyard with out hiding it completely.

    Keep the opening in the pavers for the planting to soften and screen the front courtyard area. I like that.

    The former planter box area is what needs fixing. It needs to shrink since you said it impeded traffic. So working in a straight line from the left side of the front door add that much pavers to the right side of this bed making it that much narrower. You can have this narrower bed extend all the way to the curb as it is now or add more pavers to just past what I take to be a water meter in the grass. Either way remove the grass and plant both cutout beds in the pavers with water wise low shrubs, grasses and flowers like you did in you mockup. That will make your front sitting area all the more cozy.

    The two cut out beds in the pavers will balance and off set the need to repeat the right side planter box.


  • PRO
    Yardvaark
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    "I asked the certified arborist we hired what approach we should take with this tree and she told me that trees like this should only be minimally pruned with the smallest cuts possible and you never want to take large limbs out .... yada yada yada..." All I can say is I do not put that much faith in their opinions. These days, they come out of college obsessed by the tree's psychological health and are determined that everyone must help pay back their student loans, i.e., you must be overly cautioned about everything; you cannot think for yourself or make common sense judgments and so-called experts are the only ones capable of guiding everyone else to safety. I would chuck that and get an ordinary, common sense, experienced tree trimmer to make the call. Not a hick, but a bright guy.

    "I am afraid that the limb to the right you mentioned, however, is integral the tree at this point ..." This is the unfortunate consequence of not doing timely, ongoing maintenance on trees while they're in their formative years. The limb could have been removed when it was 2 or 4 inches in diameter and long before it became a permanent part of the canopy. A difference between us would probably be that if I can't have the form I want, which I'm willing to take the risk for, I'd just as soon start over with another tree if that's what I have to do. But I wouldn't really believe that that's what I would have to do as I've had a lot of experience making plants of all sizes conform (To what's really in their best interest :-) with extremely little actual complaining by them. Like Christopher, I don't think the limbs are that big that they are going to cause damage by the mere cutting of them. But I, too, don't know jack about when the elm beetles have their birthday parties and drinking fests.

    When I place a redbud off of the house corner, I place it farther left. You get it too close in front of the house. The other factor is limbing up. Trees in yards need to be limbed up to fit with architecture. It does not mean they have less head. It means the head is higher.

    My vision for a small tree in the island left of drive is the corollary to your vision of a small tree in an island at the square notched out area of the walk. The notch-out seems disruptive to the flow of the walk to me, but it could be because I have limited view, seeing only what's in the pictures. We're doing the essentially the same thing in different places. And we seem to have reasons for liking our chosen places better than the other person's place.

    As far as circle vs. square, I agree there is some disparity as the square being raised and sizable, dominates. That's how I felt like I could get away with a circle because it is not raised and therefore not as blatantly obvious. It seemed to me that some of the paving paths were tight in the area. Again, this could be my viewpoint from the photos. Maybe in real life, it seems more spacious than it looks to me. However, after making the circle, I found myself repeatedly wishing I could round out the corners of the raised bed across the drive. Actually, I wish that raised bed didn't exist. It seems like everything would look better if the tree was just in the yard with no raised planter. The planter seems overly obstructive to me.

    I do not know your area for picking plants.

    Elle L thanked Yardvaark
  • Elle L
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    @Yardvaark Do you think I could remove the planter on the right? I would honestly prefer it! I truly dislike these raised planters, especially the one we removed as it was enormous in proportion to the yard and an obstacle from both the driveway and the walk. I just got a little excited thinking about the idea of removing the other one altogether. We initially scrapped it thinking it might cause undo stress to the Elm to remove it.


    Thanks again for your other considerations and thoughtful responses. I appreciate it! I'm going to look around and find someone who can limb up the tree for us, I've been convinced! I'm less willing to lose it than you may be though, growing up in an area where mature trees are a rarity, I felt like I won the lottery with this one. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, right? ;)

  • Elle L
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    And our walk path is 5' wide from the street all the way to the bend to the front door where it widens to 6' for the remainder of the path to the door. I never felt they were too narrow, but the bend is awkward. It was a fight over the path jogging over to the mailbox as you see it or jogging over at the street. Obviously the former won and left me with a puzzle to figure out.


    I was hoping the dead space between the jog and the courtyard would look less awkward if I intentionally continued it as a planting bed around towards the house and created a living hedge/separation of sorts with plantings. I'm still seeing it as a possibility, but that's why I wanted to ask in the forum because I am keenly aware there are better trained eyes than mine to this sort of thing. Either way I'd like to incorporate your suggestion in the jog area to make it less severe in some way, so I need to ruminate on this a little bit. Again, many thanks.

  • PRO
    Yardvaark
    4 years ago

    You could not remove the raised planter while the tree was there without it looking extremely odd. Wanting the planter gone is one reason not to be overly concerned if the tree doesn't survive a limb-up job. Though death of something major usually brings pain, in the landscape world it can also mean progress.

  • Elle L
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    I wonder if adding some plants in front of the planter would help soften the offensiveness of its size. I don't want to get into a situation where I'm putting lipstick on a pig, but it's there and I want to make it look as nice as it can essentially. I could also paint it so it's not so bright against the grass. Idk, just throwing some thoughts out there...

  • PRO
    Yardvaark
    4 years ago

    Painting it would be OK, but planting in front of it would take it into a worse direction. Instead, consider planting a low growing, shade tolerant groundcover, especially one that will spill over the sides.