SHOP PRODUCTS
Houzz Logo Print
weedyacres

Pricing Little Beau....evaluating value of updating

weedyacres
4 years ago

Our little foreclosure house that we rescued 7 years ago and brought back to life is going on the market. I brought in 2 realtors and asked for price recommendations.


The one that seems to have a better handle on her comp analysis picked 4, all priced in the 60's. This is a small town in the midwest, so no crazy prices. Math geek that I am, I'm plotting them in a spreadsheet to determine how to price the house. I'm limiting comps to 2-bedroom houses within a few hundred sf either side, on average sized city lots.


So I adjusted up/down for square footage, using $40/sf, $2000 for a garage, $1000 for a basement vs. crawl space. Don't know if these are reasonable assumptions.


The variable remaining is condition. Ours is 100% updated/restored, the realtors both said it was beautiful, perfect, etc. The comps are what I'd call "medium updated." They have carpet or laminate (but not 40-year-old shag), they have clean kitchens but with original cabinets that have been painted, or honey oak, nothing to write home about, and some have bad layouts or are small. The bathrooms are meh. Or they might have a newer bath but older kitchen, so partial update.


So how do I adjust pricing for condition? I'm trying hard not to have a "my baby is the cutest" bias and overplay the value of the updates. You guys can feel free to look at the photos in the link at the top and tell me our renovations are "medium updated" if that's what you think. We certainly didn't go high dollar on our project, because we knew there was a limit to how much of our money we'd recover.


But what's my delta? Is a modest, sub-$100Khouse that's beautiful worth $10K more than an average house? $5K? $500? Nothing?

Comments (58)

  • User
    4 years ago

    I'm close to being a retiree (that's why I'm looking to downsize!) and I'm happy to climb a few steps. I know a lot of people focus on accessibility for us "older" folks, but I think a little exercise for as long as I can reasonably do it is good for me.

    It's rare for a home to offer a totally flat entry, at least here in my market.

    At the price you are considering listing for, I'd give you a cash offer today if you were in my market. :)

  • weedyacres
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    There's actually a single retiree that lives a few blocks away that often walks her dog in the neighborhood. We've chatted with her over the years, and she's interested in downsizing. She wants to look at our house, and as soon as we have the price figured out, we're going to offer her a tour. If she doesn't bite, we'll list it.

    Interesting response of each agent to my questions on their comps.

    Agent 1 picked higher priced comps. I asked her "why not these 3 comps" (the ones agent 2 used)? She said "the quality of your home is much better than those."

    Agent 2 picked lower price comps. I asked her "why not these 3 comps" (the ones agent 1 used)? She said "they are on water/larger lots/brick exterior."

    Nice when no one agrees. Arghhh!

  • Related Discussions

    Windsor: estimate age & value?

    Q

    Comments (7)
    Thanks for the input linda. Curious what your eyes see that makes you suspect plastic for the seat? (looked for shiny areas but my tired eyes don't see it ;) I really liked this chair at first look (love a Windsor!). What attracted me was that it was a little different. But now that I've had time to study the photos it seems as if it might be trying too hard to be Early American? It's the turned wood spindles on the back that keeps throwing me. I see what you mean about the rake and splay, both look on the tight side. But then I see something else that makes me wonder. Are you able to zoom in close enough on the rear view, to the back of the seat? Can you see the joinery? It's too precise for hand-made (which the really, really old Windsors were, but we already know it's not 18th century). Would they do joinery like that in a newer, more mass produced repro? In a newer/later (say 1950's) repro I'd expect screws and glue and perhaps a solid piece of wood for the back section of the seat, with support underneath? Not pieced together at middle + sides. Also wonder now if it that is a bad strip job but a good poly job. (Would expect finish 'wear' on the seat, maybe upper back from being handled, but not legs.) Doing a lot of wondering, here, lol. (Just stumbled onto it, & it's quite far from me so not easy to do a go see.) It's a little chair I was considering for the farm house. I like your value far better than asking price ;) Oh, I had all that typed and just now received seat bottom pic. Repair could explain rake and splay. Not thrilled with those staples.
    ...See More

    Which remodel would be better for my house value?

    Q

    Comments (17)
    I vote for the bathroom. If you are "looking ahead", here's our story. In 1989 we bought a 2bd 1ba cottage with an illegal 2-room apartment on the ground floor/garage level. After taking a hideous 18 months to remodel it in fits and starts, in 1991 it became a 2bd 2ba with a master suite downstairs to replace the apartment. When the RE appraiser came to look at it, he criticised us for putting in such a "disproportionate" and "huge" bedroom suite. Remember this is 1991 - very few people had ever seen big remodeled kitchens and master bedroom suites in our (older housing) city, let alone HAD them. We didn't get the appraisal amt we hoped for and couldn't refinance. Fast-forward to 2003. Neighborhood is gentrifying fast, old people moving out and young couples moving in. We decide to take out some equity and try the refinance again. Appraiser comes out, walks in the door, and says, "Wow, great job!" (tall cathedral ceilings, big picture windows looking out towards the hills). He goes downstairs and says, "And you even have a master bedroom suite! Gee, lots of people want these nowadays and so few of the houses around here have them!" We got an incredible appraisal, in fact he pulled comps on 3bd homes because he said so few 2bd homes in our area had the features we did. My niece and nephew, both of whom own homes and are getting married this year, would kill to have a master bathroom ensuite. Go for it!
    ...See More

    Price of Other Homes in Developement Affect Value

    Q

    Comments (33)
    FmrQuahog, Either you are just a troll or are just skimming my posts. I stated that comps are used and then adjustments are made for items that are not of equal value. Such as condition. Then you come on in the next post stating: "Why should an uncared for home drag down the price of my lovingly maintained and upgraded home" And again, it will not affect your value, as condition is another one of those items that are adjusted when comparing two separate properties. You also state: "I suggested that the value of a home should be calculated by independently appraising it in it's entirety." But at what baseline would the appraiser start at? At some arbitrary, random price? Like others have said, two homes exactly alike, can have two very different market values in two different locations. Everything in the free market is valued this way, rather you want to admit it or not, even your widgets that you make at work. You don't really think that the buyers of your widgets don't compare the attributes and qualities of your product against the competition do you? Sure they do. And after comparing them to the rest of the comparable products on the market at that time, they decide if your asking price is reasonable or not. Same process as valuating your home.
    ...See More

    Value of staging (in general and this home in particular)

    Q

    Comments (31)
    WOW... looks like a spread from Better Homes & Gardens! Rather than waste the $$ on a dubious "stager", I'd spend similar dollars for a PROFESSIONAL PHOTOGRAPHER to shoot and compile a great ALBUM, as is often done for premium props. *They* (the photog) will do the staging for "free", as part of the job... a 2-fer. ;') Rather than posting fewer pics, to "lure" buyers to visit, you want a sales "package" that's so complete, out-of-town (and int'l) buyers feel compelled to drop a deposit over the phone, just to "hold" it! I have family in Lilburn, and thought I had some knowledge of Alpharetta... can only surmise that your distance from ATL, smallish lot, and possibly "bad" roads, is the reason your property is not appraised at 7-figures. Your "realtor" and her behavior are pushing my skepticism gauge deep into the red! In addition to the oft-mentioned and obvious kickbacks mentioned above, consider some more sinister scenarios: 1) Realtor (licensed?) and/or Stager are new to biz, or returning to biz after long hiatus, and your home is SO juicy--in the photogenic sense--that one or both of these "service" providers wants to use it in their own sales materials, e.g. brochures, etc... so they REALLY need it to be "picture perfect". Having you pay for their benefit is part of the CON. Under GA law, you may have no rights to prevent this, or charge $$ for this, after house is sold... not sure. 1a) Same as (1), but some cable TV or infomercial angle is involved... behind your back. Red flag if they want you gone "all day" for an "open house". 2) SUPER naughty: Realtor is deliberately low-balling you, so her "straw" buyer (aka sister/brother with different last name) can get a screaming deal, and/or FLIP your house! =:O Your totally NON-distressed situ = hold out for high end of price range. Someone will fall in LOVE with what it offers. The US Dollar is dropping again... make sure listing is available to key INTERNATIONAL markets. As noted above, the Jumbo loan market is more than a little skittish right now, so your buyers are going to be "liquid" folks who can bring ~$150k cash to the deal. THAT is who you need to reach. PS: What is the SIZE of that lake, in acres?
    ...See More
  • Denita
    4 years ago

    I have to say that comp selection is important. The comps can be adjusted for condition and location etc. but showing a sale that happens to be in the neighborhood doesn't necessarily make it a comp. It's a good thing you asked why they chose X comp. Did they show you the adjustments on each comp?

  • weedyacres
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    Neither one showed adjustments.

    Agent 1 said "It's hard to find comps in 2 BR with improvements, because most comps aren't improved as much as yours. Closest one just sold for $83K [2 BR, on 1 acre, has a better basement and a carport, medium updated]. There's another one that sold for $95K [2 BR, on 1 acre, 1800 sf, dated]. We should list yours at $89K and it will sell in the 80's." She backed off the 89K list when I pointed out the larger lots, square footage and better basement in comparison to mine. I hadn't seen photos at that point to know what the insides were like.

    Agent 2 said "here are 4 comps with 2BR, similar size and condition" [note: only 1 was similar condition] they have garages, but your condition outweighs that. Recommended price $66,500 [=sales price of the highest of the 4, which was the fully updated one, which is only 816 sf]. I'd list at $74,500 to leave room to negotiate."

    Yeah, everyone's shooting from the hip, no one's doing math.

  • Denita
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    You could hire an appraiser to develop the most probable sales price; however, two important facts: in general they use average condition of the comps and because they are using closed sales there is a lag in an appraised value from the market. The lag is especially apparent in a rapidly rising market. As a result, you would still have to tweek the list price accordingly.

    I can tell you that certain improvements generate more dollars than others and that there isn't a per square foot formula that you can plug in your living area and building area to determine sales price. But you probably know all that already. The improvements that generate the most value are determined by your neighborhood and the current market. This is where an appraisal helps.

    BTW, I'm not surprised that the agents are shooting from the hip and not doing the math. Although there are a variety of agent types, in general, agents aren't math oriented. They are sales oriented. I have found that most agents lean heavily toward the sales side and not toward the math/analytical side. And, at the end, you probably want your agent to be more marketing and sales oriented - as that is the ultimate goal, to get your home sold.

  • new-beginning
    4 years ago

    Weedy, I am soon to be 81 yrs old, live in a garage apt (owned by grandson) and have 13 stair steps to my apt. I am able to climb them.

  • midcenturymodernlove
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    If you are selling, I would remove all that mismatched furniture in that one room that I think you called a dressing room? Looks cluttered. The living room furniture looks large for the size. I'd weed a lot of that out.

    And honestly, I'm not a huge fan of the large diamond in the middle of the floor, which to me, looks like an obvious patch. I would probably disclose it, but cover with a beautiful light colored rug that brings all of the colors in the room together.


    All that said, you did do a fantastic job!

  • weedyacres
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    @newbeginning: I want to be like you in 30 years. Way to stay active!

    @mcml: that “closet room” is now empty for purposes of staging/showing. The LR furniture is a bit different too, and the sofa half covers the patch in the center of that floor.

  • Ally De
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    I don't mind the floor patch at all. It's a restored older home with charm, not a perfect plasticky mcmansion.

    Brilliant job, well done.

  • nickel_kg
    4 years ago

    It's a really beautiful house, great for starters, retirees, or anyone who simply doesn't want a huge house for whatever reason. I enjoyed your blog of fixing it up, weedyacres. Good luck getting a good price :-) For what it's worth, I'd guess a premium of $10 - $20K for having a lovely, move-in ready home versus a house needing work. Split the difference at $15K? Either way, the market will speak.

  • bry911
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    In my experience, improved, low price houses in rural areas are almost impossible to objectively price. You just have to go with your gut and your experience. Also it has been my experience that appraisals get very fluid for low house prices in low price areas. Maybe an appraiser will disagree but that has been my experience.

  • weedyacres
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    Well, the neighbor told us she didn't feel like now was the time to downsize, and also said that her ideal was about 800 sf with a small kitchen. But she came and looked at the house this afternoon anyway. She raved about it, and said it was tempting.

    I'm think I'm going to call agent #2 tomorrow (the one with the lower comps) and list it with her at $78K.

  • homechef59
    4 years ago

    I'm the appraiser in this group of house obsessed junkies. What would I do? Of course, I'd be limited to using closed comps. You already understand that. Those are lagging numbers.

    There are so many factors in trying to arrive at a valuation. I've seen bunches of these smaller rehabbed homes. I've got to tell you that you do really good work.

    Yes, this house should sell at a premium to the other homes in the area. The question is how much? It's going to be a range of 3% to 7% more than the other comps. But, it's important to note that what you need is good marketing advice rather than appraisal advice. It sounds as if your realtors are experienced but a bit lazy. The one piece of advice I would give you is to be very careful not to over price. Your realtors will encourage you to do this. If you get it right, you will have a bidding war erupt. There is huge demand for houses like this.

    You need to be very aware of pricing points/ranges and psychology of sales. With a home under $100,000 pricing ranges are in $5,000 and $10,000 increments. Be very aware of this when you set the number.

    I really think that this will go to an investor. Investor's are hungry for these types of properties. If they can make the ROI work, they will snap this up. A few weeks before listing, I would put a sign in the yard indicating that investors are welcome.

    Investors pay cash. They don't over pay, but they are really easy to deal with and there are no banks involved. What are your typical rents in the area? Before you sign a contract with a realtor, do a rental market analysis. This isn't typically done on most residential properties, but I think it would be worth doing for your situation. This will let you know if an investor offer is reasonable.

    Nice work.

  • Denita
    4 years ago

    @homechef59, this is one of the few times I disagree with you.

    IME investors don't pay enough. They typically (try to) pay substantially under market even if the property is in great condition, like this one.

    IMO the target market should be a down sizing buyer that has enough funds to pay cash or put a substantial amount down so if the appraisal comes in short, the buyer will pick up the difference to avoid the hassle factor. We have those buyers in my market, there is no reason that those buyers don't exist in the OP's market.

    Another good target market is first time homebuyer where Mom and Dad are helping the buyer purchase by gifting an amount. We have those buyers here in my market too. Mom and Dad don't want the adult kids to be saddled with a fixer upper so they would rather help them by giving a gift that allows the new buyer to have a better property.

    Either of those markets will work with this home. There are probably other markets in the immediate area of which I am unaware but the OP's agent will know.

  • weedyacres
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    Interesting perspectives. This is a small town in the midwest, so bidding wars are non-existent. Investors don't overpay. There's not a lot of parent money subsidizing kids' houses. And realtors aren't that impressive.

    I asked my agent (who should be over there taking photos as we speak) if 2 identical houses were next door to each other and one was fully updated and one was medium updated, what would she expect the premium to be on the updated one. She said she would expect them to sell for the same price. Huh?

    homechef: I ran my comp calculations your way: removed the $10K premium for condition and then used 3-7% range instead. Result: you predict a sales price of $71-74K.

    Hopefully we'll find out very soon what the true market price is. Because our proceeds determine our budget for renovating 2 bathrooms and a kitchen in our current house. :-)

  • Denita
    4 years ago

    I am surprised your Realtor answered that way. It doesn't make sense to me. She sounds like she is stuck on a per sq foot number rather than market value.

    As to taking pics - she should have a regular pro real estate photographer there to take the pics, at her expense. Very few agents have the training necessary to take their own photos - and that's why the MLS is filled with awful property pics. When you have professional photos - it shows. Not only in the pics, but in the sales price too. It's not that expensive at all.

  • homechef59
    4 years ago

    Denita, it all depends on that rental analysis. This property may be a cash generator. Rentals are in demand. You are correct that most investors are looking for bargains and steals. There are people who want a good quality unit to add to their portfolio. Good rentals are few and far between. If I was a buyer and thought it would churn cash, I'd want to look at it. I might only make a ridiculous offer, but some people actually use the ROI number to make sound purchase decisions.

    Weedyacres, If I were setting a price, understanding that is not a valuation, rather an example of pricing psychology, I would start at the higher end at $79,900. Your second pricing point will be $74,900. This way you are under $80K and $75K when a buyer does an internet search.

    I'd also advise to put a $5K premium back into the equation. Don't sell yourself short. It's a Goldilocks house, not too expensive not too cheap. I like the $79,900 starting point because it includes that premium.

    I've had great experiences with agents in rural areas for my personal homes. That comment from your realtor was disturbing. You get the other side of the coin sometimes, lazy and set in their ways. I'm not impressed with what you have described.

  • Denita
    4 years ago

    I understand about the rental analysis, but rarely run into an investor that will pay market rate. If the investor is a long term buy and hold type person, then they are more likely to pay closer to market. Because they are looking at the long term view, they value not only the rents but the repairs and fix up money that they don't have to put into this property before they get it into service. That's a big benefit to an investor buyer. Are they out there? Sure. But not your average investor IME.

  • bry911
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    Real estate is a local game, both rental and retail.

    The amount I am willing to pay for a rental property is not that connected to the price a seller sets it at. Where I live currently, the market uses a 10% annual cap rate. So if a property is going to bring in $800 per month net rental revenue, then I am going to offer $96,000 (give or take 10%) for the property. If it is truly a nice property, as this one is, I will probably go in at a bit over $100k.

    Where I currently play, most investors pay a premium for rental properties over what they would bring as a retail sale. Multiple first week offers with a 10% - 20% premium from investors are typical. I am actually starting a project to build rental houses as it is simply cheaper for me to build new than compete with the other investors. It is just the nature of the rental market versus retail market in this area. The retail market is slow and houses don't appreciate fast, so houses are a long term commitment in this area as you are going to be in a loss position for 6 to 8 years here, where most markets will appreciate beyond the transactional costs in 3 to 4 years. This bolsters the rental market and depresses the ownership market.

    In my experience rural markets tend to skew towards competitive pricing from investors and urban markets tend to skew towards bargain offers from investors. That isn't to say that my experience is the norm, it is just my experience.

  • ncrealestateguy
    4 years ago

    I would advise listing at $79,900, knowing it is worth about $75,000 or so. That is about 16% over the homes in average condition. I would also market it as "Coming Soon" for at least a week, and going live on a Friday. I would also make sure potential buyers know that there are 0% home loans for this house... USDA, and now with these Opportunity Zone loans, a buyer can get $7500 towards closing costs and get credited with a 3.0% down payment by rolling it into the loan. If they do not need all of the $7500 to pay the closing costs, the buyer can use the remainder to buy the interest rate down. One heck of a deal for the buyer and the seller.

    Causing a buzz around a property can be, and should be about more than just the actual property. Marketing the available financing options is a huge driver of getting top dollar. It ranks right up there with location and condition.

    I also would prefer using comps that the one agent did that had the comps closer in, with same size lots and same sq. ftg. For me, it is a lot easier to adjust for the condition, than it is for a home that is on water, one with much more land or one with a better basement. When I give a listing presentation, I show all of my adjustments, I calculate the Absorption Rate, and I take into account the Competition. (The Actives) I sometimes even visit the Competition, if warranted. I sit down with the sellers and tell them to pretend they are a buyer, and we look at all of the Actives, and ask ourselves if our property would be chosen over each one or not. By the time we are finished with all of this, the price at which we should list is usually really clear.

  • rrah
    4 years ago

    First, absolutely amazing work on the house! I'm always impressed and intrigued by people that can do this work. I think your list price of $78,000 is pretty close. As I read through your post and the comps I thought you should list between $75,000 with little negotiation and $80,000 with a bit more negotiating room. For what it's worth, one of the areas I worked in as an agent was rural, small town Midwestern. Comping those houses was always more difficult than comping places in my small city.

  • weedyacres
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    Update: we accepted an offer for $77K. Had 4 people look at it the first week, #3 went back for a 2nd look yesterday, and we came to an agreement by nightfall.

    One interesting tidbit: the offer came in without earnest money. I requested that blank be filled in as part of our counter and our agent said they've mostly stopped doing earnest money here because it's such a pain to get it out of escrow and the buyer always gets it back anyway. That didn't feel right to me, so we asked for $500 EM and they agreed. Has anyone seen that in their locale?

  • Denita
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    No. I've never seen that and I don't believe it (the agents answer!). How can it be pain? The money is held in escrow until closing. If the buyer cancels during the inspection period then they get their funds back. It's just a matter of the buyer and seller signing the release and cancellation and the escrow agent cutting a check.
    Congratulations on your contract. You were right to demand a EMD.

  • ncrealestateguy
    4 years ago

    Hogwash... her agency probably refuses to reconcile a trust account, so her particular office probably does not accept monies. But most of the time, it is deposited with the closing attorney anyhow.

    Congrats on a quick sale.

  • Denita
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    BTW, anyone making an offer without EMD specified (date and amount) is not making a real offer. You were right to counter with an EMD amount and due date.

  • lyfia
    4 years ago

    Congratulations!


    I think I agree with the part of the statement of the money is generally always returned no matter what to the buyer, however that doesn't mean that having the money anyways is a bad thing since it often means that if the buyer is considering pulling out for some little minor thing that is just in their head at least they will think more about it as they do have to go through the hassle of getting their money back and the delays involved in it.

  • User
    4 years ago

    Congratulations Weedy, hope it goes through smooth sailing from here. I'm still jealous - I love what you did to that house and wish I could find something similar here. All my choices seem to be McMansions or beat to hell older homes.

  • weedyacres
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    Not so smooth.... They met with the agent to sign the final amended offer today but COVID-19 and a work layoff is freaking them out, so they decided to wait. Agent and lender are trying to talk them down.

    We haven't had a single confirmed case in our rural county, just the widespread TP shortages, "sky-is-falling" media coverage, school and restaurant closures that everyone's going through.

  • User
    4 years ago

    That's what I wondered Weedy. I'm in NY so the "sky is falling" media is more or less right here. I was wondering if this would impact your sale...

  • ncrealestateguy
    4 years ago

    A job layoff is more than having a "sky is falling" paranoia.

    Hope it all works out for you and them.

  • homechef59
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    Just a point of order. It's not a contract without goods and other valuable considerations being exchanged between the seller and buyer. In this case, at least one dollar. The agent was way wrong to suggest no money exchanging. The contract would fail because it lacked this element. Earnest money usually ends up in the closing attorney's trust account pending the sale.

  • bry911
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    A sales contract doesn't require any earnest money. The exchange of consideration is a house for cash.

    Earnest money is used so buyers have some vested interest in the deal.

  • ncrealestateguy
    4 years ago

    I believe bry911 is correct. No EMD is required to have an enforceable RE contract.

    I think I know where the confusion comes in here... I am pretty certain that I was taught in RE licensing class, 16 years ago, that at least one dollar was necessary. But I do not believe that is true.

  • Denita
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    I was taught many years ago (40+ yrs) that you need consideration for an enforceable contract. Consideration doesn't have to be money. However, money is what we use (generally) to show interest in the property in the form of EMD. I haven't had anyone offer something else of value that a seller would accept, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen with other parties.

    In the OP's case, the buyer wasn't offering anything of value, at least according to the original post. Not a trade, not an item, not anything. The OP countered with an EMD due date and an amount for the buyer to pay. I think it was a very reasonable response to the buyers offer.

    We can get into esoteric type offers, but the reality is this: If you have a buyer with no money, your ability to close the sale is significantly reduced. You can get creative, but then what happens when the house is taken off the market (pending closing) and the seller loses those days when they could have been marketed to someone that has the ability to close? The buyer has nothing to lose. The seller loses time - and depending upon how much time, may lose some market value (with long DOM's suggesting a stigma or an issue with the property).

  • bry911
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    I was taught many years ago (40+ yrs) that you need consideration for an enforceable contract. [...] In the OP's case, the buyer wasn't offering anything of value, at least according to the original post.

    A contract is an offer and acceptance for an exchange of consideration that mutually binds parties with capacity.

    In the case of a home sale. If party A offers to buy a house for $100 dollars and party B accepts. Assuming both have the capacity to contract, you have an enforceable contract. There is no requirement for EMD at all and there never has been. It is a fabrication to explain a complicated principle to people.

    There need not be an immediate exchange of consideration, just a commitment that obligates both parties to an exchange. That is the mutuality of obligation. There are thousands of contracts without a required deposit, for example, a listing contract with a realtor is valid without you requiring a deposit from the seller.

    EMD serves as a demonstration of "skin in the game." Without an EMD I could make an offer on your home without being committed to buying the home. I could withdraw without any penalty and your only recourse would be suing me.

    EMD's are supposed to prevent this, if I cancel I lose my earnest money. However, because of the complications associated with these contracts and things like due diligence periods and contingencies in contracts, keeping the EMD has become increasingly rare. So at this point it serves no real purpose at all, I would have no trouble accepting an offer without EMD. Also we should note that home inspections, appraisals, etc. still create skin in the game.

  • Denita
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    I see your point. However IMO it isn't prudent for the seller to accept an offer without any EMD at all. It's great for the buyer - because the buyer could change his mind at any point during the purchase process (including the day of closing), not just the inspection period, and have no penalty whatsoever. The fact that the buyer has paid 3rd party fees doesn't protect the seller one bit from a buyer that fails to close by their own choosing.

    If buyers could make offers without putting up any funds, what's to stop them from making offers on several properties and being "in contract" with several sellers? Nothing. They haven't put up funds which is a limiting factor to many buyers. In your scenario there is no penalty to the buyer when he cancels a contract other than a lawsuit. I realize most buyers wouldn't go to the extreme of many contracts and closing only one, but there is a subset of buyers that would do so. How would you know at the outset that the buyer, without funds, is going to close? What is legally possible is not always prudent.

  • bry911
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    I see your point. However IMO it isn't prudent for the seller to accept an offer without any EMD at all. It's great for the buyer - because the buyer could change his mind at any point during the purchase process (including the day of closing), not just the inspection period, and have no penalty whatsoever.

    Denita, this is a common misconception, arguably a useful one to keep people from suing each other. Anything that would allow the seller to keep the EMD is a breach of contract and would also allow the seller to seek any and all damages, including forcing the buyer to continue with the purchase.

    EMD has nothing to do with your loss or penalty for breech of contract. Once a buyer has made an offer, they can't change their mind for any reason that is not stated in the contract. Some states, such as North Carolina, provide a due diligence period. In that due diligence period a buyer may change their mind for any reason, but outside of that period they can't. In most states there are stated contingencies such as inspection and financing and those are the only reasons a buyer may withdraw. Once those withdrawal periods or options have passed, then the buyer can't simply pull out without a penalty.

    The EMD just provides money in hand to the seller so now the buyer carries the burden rather than the seller. It was intended as a, "I have X amount of your money, if you want it back you will have to sue me."

    In reality, today the EMD protects the buyer and not the seller, which is the opposite of its intended purpose. In most areas the amounts are too small to create any real vested interest in the deal and its existence forces the buyer and seller to negotiate its surrender or return when deals collapse. This effectively limits the liability of the buyer and gives the seller a very small (if any) amount of money.

    An example to show you what I mean. Suppose I am selling a $1,000,000 home and I accept a purchase offer for $1,000,000. Then right before closing the buyer backs out and I have to remarket the house. During that time the economy shifts and I end up selling the house for $800,000.

    With EMD - Suppose I accepted a $10,000 EMD and when the buyer cancels we negotiate that I can keep $8,000 of it. That negotiation is a settlement for the breach of contract and now I have no recourse on the $200,000 I am short.

    Without EMD - Without any EMD the breach remains unsettled and I can seek recovery from the buyer for the $200,000 of damages.

    In reality, attorneys are expensive and that is why people don't regularly sue for breach of purchase agreement. But that doesn't mean you can't. It does happen in every state, even if it is a bad idea.

    If buyers could make offers without putting up any funds, what's to stop them from making offers on several properties and being "in contract" with several sellers? Nothing.

    Because even though litigation is expensive, any attorney would win that case on bad faith alone and the buyer would be in dire financial straits real quick like.

    ETA: How does EMD prevent that now if it is always returned? If I have $50,000 I could put $2,000 EMD down on 25 houses and would probably get all 25 returned just so the sellers could remarket their houses. The seller can't put the house back on the market until the EMD is settled which gives the buyer more power than the seller to get the refund.

  • Denita
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    You are in a different area where the EMD's are apparently very low as both your examples illustrate. Here, it is customary to collect enough of an EMD that the buyer would think twice about walking away from an executed contract. Typical is 5% to 10% EMD or more. If there is a very small EMD, it is followed up with a second deposit at a specified time, usually a day after the inspection/due diligence period expires.

    I do understand your points. Attorney's are expensive and buyers and sellers are generally not going to sue if one of the parties default in a typical residential transaction as the cost of the suit could easily exceed the EMD even if it is 5-10% of the purchase of a low dollar purchase. The point of the EMD is to make sure the buyer has skin in the game - and paying 3rd parties the appraisal fee and inspection fee isn't going to keep the buyer from walking if he changes his mind or defaults. The EMD is meant to make sure the buyer thinks before making an offer and the seller is compensated for the lost time on the market between the contract date and the cancellation date. Serious buyers have no problem putting up the EMD. Buyers with no money always want to go in with a $1000 deposit or some other low amount. As I said, maybe its our area but the low EMD's would make the buyer's offer very weak and an offer without one wouldn't be considered a serious offer (typically, there are exceptions).

    ETA: Most of these buyers and sellers are people actually looking for residential property to live in and don't take the offer/contract process lightly at all. They don't want to lose a penny. They actually want to close unless something unexpected comes up during the inspection period that can't be resolved.

  • bry911
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    Here, it is customary to collect enough of an EMD that the buyer would think twice about walking away from an executed contract. Typical is 5% to 10% EMD or more.

    The amount of the EMD is largely immaterial if always returned. I wouldn't care to put down an EMD that was 50% of the purchase price as they always get returned here. I am far more concerned about the $400 on inspection and the appraisal fee than I am about a $50,000 EMD. I do that all the time to trick unsophisticated sellers, large earnest money deposits make my offer look better than it really is. Then I just use a due diligence contingency to get out if I really want. I am not making offers I don't intend to honor, but there is no real risk either and I get properties at a discount.

    Furthermore, the reason that most markets moved away from large 5% to 10% EMD's is that research clearly demonstrates that large deposit requirements hurt the sellers. All you are doing is reducing the number of people who can make offers and driving the price down. I didn't realize that many market still have large EMD's.

    Finally, the seller still can't market the property unless the EMD is resolved. Typically sellers are more at risk than buyers and so even when EMD should reasonably be kept, it is just returned. I just called my realtor for reasons not related to this and she said she hasn't had a seller keep earnest money in years. It just isn't worth the fight.

  • Denita
    4 years ago

    It's true, I haven't experienced a seller keep a buyers deposit in many years either. If the purchase is going to fall apart, it happens during the inspection period, not at closing.

    No, we're not experiencing prices being driven down either.

    Yes, the seller can't market the property without the signed Cancellation and Release. It isn't worth the fight, but it certainly isn't worth accepting a buyer with nothing to lose either.

  • bry911
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    No, we're not experiencing prices being driven down either.

    I am not trying to start a fight but I suspect the laws of supply and demand hold true in your area. There are some "would be" buyers who are serious and could get financing that don't have immediate access to 5% to 10% of liquidity. There are solid loans that don't require that kind of cash to fund so requiring sellers to present funds in excess of their total cash needed has to lower the demand.

    No matter what you do, the equilibrium price has to be reduced when there are fewer buyers. There is simply no way around it. That might be small or large but it certainly wouldn't help with a $77,000 home. I bet that most houses that sell for $77,000 don't close with 10% cash down.

    It isn't worth the fight, but it certainly isn't worth accepting a buyer with nothing to lose either.

    But there is nothing to lose. You can't have it both ways. Either there is some chance I will lose my deposit or not. If there is no chance to lose my deposit then I have nothing to lose. This is why inspections, appraisals and loan application fees are a better sign of vested interest as they represent non-refundable monies invested into the property.

  • sheilajoyce_gw
    4 years ago

    Weedy, what a beautiful job you have done on this little gem. I admire your determination and know-how in getting the job done as well as the creative solutions you develop for sticky situations. Congratulations on all your hard work well done.

  • Denita
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    @bry911, you just proved my point with this statement: There are some "would be" buyers who are serious and could get financing that don't have immediate access to 5% to 10% of liquidity.

    Lets assume you could find a home in the $77k price point here in Palm Beach county (not likely). Lets also assume that the seller accepted a financed offer over the many cash offers at that price point (also not likely). But if it were financed FHA, for example, the buyer would have to have 3.5% as a down payment plus 4% minimum of the purchase price for closing costs and pre-paid expenses. Probably more since the HOI is high here. If the buyer doesn't have access to the funds for the 5% EMD then that discussion is made at the time of the offer and the buyer has proven he doesn't have the capacity to close. Could he get gift funds? Yes, but then that discussion is known right up front too. Could the seller contribute toward his costs, only if it's agreed to in a contract, but then all the buyers cards are on the table. Same thing for VA mortgages except that the down payment is zero but the closing costs and pre-paids are similar. We don't have USDA here in PBC. The point is to not obligate the seller without also obligating the buyer. Your point is that the buyer is never obligated to follow through with the purchase right up to the day of closing and that losing $4-500 on an inspection and $500-600 on an appraisal is enough deterrent from a buyer that doesn't have the capacity or ability or desire to close. And then the seller has lost that 20 to 30 days entirely with a buyer that can't close and they knew it when they made the offer!

    My point is, if the buyer has no intention of actually closing, we would rather know up front before the seller signs the contract so the seller can choose not to accept an offer where the buyer doesn't have the capacity to close. All of this comes to light when we see the EMD or lack of EMD as a point of information separate from the "pre-approval". Then the seller can make a choice to go with one of the other buyers.

  • weedyacres
    Original Author
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    Update: So 2 months later and we're under contract. We have continued to have about a showing a week since the shutdowns, a few sounded like they were going to make a move, then one did. $75K, a bit less than offer #1, and a USDA loan. COVID has hit about 100 people in our rural county so far and killed 14, but vast majority were in a nursing home spate. I think having a vacant home was a plus because we didn't have to worry about sanitizing all the time and wondering what they touched.

    Let's hope this one sticks!

  • Denita
    3 years ago

    Congratulations weedyacres!

  • homechef59
    3 years ago

    Congratulations. Stay safe.

  • kathyg_in_mi
    3 years ago

    Beautiful!

  • function_first
    3 years ago

    It was fun following your renovations a few years back. i think it’s a lucky buyer who gets to move in to a place that’s had so much careful work done to it. Congrats on your nearly completed sale.

  • mjlb
    3 years ago

    Nice job, but I get exhausted just thinking of the amount of work you did!