Marlorena, If you were to quit the forum, I would miss you postings as I am sure some others would. I hope you stay. But an unacceptable comment is unacceptable comment. If you quit due to my calling your statement out, good riddance

...edited..

...enjoy your roses, I'm sure you care for them with the utmost affection, as we all do...

Again, I do hope you stay. We all say things that we regret later on. I do that too, more often I would like. I do hope that you continue to share your knowledge and your roses with people on the forum.

Hi summersrhythm_z6a I think he does his research in southern China, but not entirely sure...

since we can’t import roses from Japan either, maybe there are strict rules for importing roses from Asia? I could be totally wrong... better to consult the experts.

Thanks Oliver. I will find out. :-)

Oliver, thank you for sharing these wonderful roses. Really wish we could have access to a wider selection of roses here in the US.

Marlorena, I don’t understand why you feel so justified to paint a negative picture against an entire country with a very broad brush simply because there is a virus outbreak there. I also don’t see the logic that one should question the validity of chinese roses because of a virus outbreak there that is being fought by many people through global collaboration. We come to this forum to love, share, help, and support, and let’s try to keep it that way.

Claire

Racism is racism. Call it out, or be complicit. Especially in these times.

Case need not to be made. The thread speaks for itself.

No, no, no! There are infinite gradations of opinion, and no one should be accused of anything based on one comment. This is exactly what’s wrong with our culture at the present time. When did it become acceptable to be so narrow-minded and quick to condemn? (That is a rhetorical question — please don’t respond to it.) This New Puritanism, as I perceive it, is very depressing to me.

You may disagree. That’s fine. Just let’s not throw accusatory bombs at one another.

please, please, no political opinions on this forum. I come here to relax.

I am not happy with how some of this remarks are being said on this forum about everything from ' Cherry picking ' history to veiled and overt racism.

I cannot believe what i am reading. Good Grief!

I wont be coming back on this forum only on Antique's.

Marlorena, this has nothing to do with you. Peace my friend !

For the record, it’s more than one comment. More like 5 or 6. However, the one that really gets me is the bat eating one. If that’s ok with you, cool. Says more about you than me. I was raised to apologize if I offend someone. Not double down.

Right, no politics in our rose forum. We don’t ever mention Christian Bedard with the Opioid crisis, David Austin with Brexit discord. The individual is not responsible for his whole country ‘s problem, and we’re just here to discuss our mutual hobby. So we should not associate a Chinese breeder, Zhenzhi Jiang, with the ills of his nation, either.

I've come back from a weekend away and am really saddened to find that a thread that seemed to have (quite rightly) resolved itself back into an appreciation of Chinese roses has become a thread bashing Marlorena. Why anyone thought it would be constructive to stir this up again is a mystery to me. Please take a moment to read this illuminating article about dealing with conflicts constructively. See especially the part that says "make it easy for your counterpart to be constructive." https://www.mediate.com/articles/jordan2.cfm

This is a community, even though it exists online. We are here for each other, and call outs should be issued in a way that invites members of this community to be better people -- not in a way that dismisses them entirely and escalates conflict. Does that ever work?

This is a world that, more than ever, needs tolerance and kindness. Thank you, Sylvia, for your wise and gentle words. We don't always know what burdens are carried by the people who share their roses here, but they are often considerable and heart-wrenching. The best we can do is to let the roses speak, and to keep love in our hearts.

The David Austin style roses have become quite popular in the Far East, and I do not see much reason to question the provinence, particularly after learning about the hybridizer. It doesn't require particular skill to be able to create the "English" old Rose forms. They were the default for many years. Hybridizers threw them away because they were considered crude and inferior to the high-centered teas throughout much of the 20th century. And it's worth noting that David Austin Roses seems to replicate many of the same Styles and forms of their prior introductions, so why be critical of someone else for doing the same?

I would be interested in knowing more about the health, architecture, and quantity of blooms on those Roses. Some of them do appear quite unique.

It seems there is a difference in opinion as to whether coming to the defense of somebody whose work and whose country *appear* to have been inappropriately maligned is "attacking" somebody or "defending" somebody.

Beautiful roses! I like the Light Makeup, Rainy Mountain, Peacock Dance, and Butterfly Stripes.

Plus one for keeping politically charged comments out of the forum. I'm sure we're all aware of how screwed up the world can be. Roses are a means of enjoying what's actually good with the world. I prefer to keep it that way. I'd rather talk about the world's problems somewhere else.

I always try to keep things light and funny on this forum , and yes stick to roses. As a person of Asian descent I found this thread quite hurtful. Honestly if my own mother said something deeply offensive to me, I’d let her know. It doesn’t mean I don’t respect her, I just want her to stop this line of commenting. If a friend said something you found deeply inappropriate, wouldn’t you in turn be a good friend if you confronted them?

Imagine if someone posted a bunch of beautiful pics of Christian Bedard‘s roses on a Chinese forum. Then a poster said they were fakes, all bred by either Tantau or Meilland, an American couldn’t possibly breed beautiful roses like these. I’m sure one of them is Augusta Louise ripoff, others look suspiciously like Romanticas. Oh and by they way, they abuse opioids in the US, they let their own kids drown in student loan debt, shoot each other at public celebrations, meddle in other nations’ affairs, incite trade wars. They even eat blue cheese too, its stinky and makes them fat! They are nothing but trouble and we have every right to be upset with the US.

Would that be an appropriate response to pretty pics of US bred roses on a gardening forum?

Krista,

I am not attacking Marlorena as a person, and my comments are with respect to the statements. Someone grows and cares for such beautiful rose and is are always willing to share her knowledge and help others CANNOT be a bad person. But good people sometimes do say horrible things. You would be shocked by what my family and close friends would say. While I despise race-based/identity-based politics/cancellation culture, certain statements in her comments are beyond the pale, and should be called out as such, especially since they were made on a public forum (where things that were said live in eternity).

As a Chinese American, it is heartbreaking to see her postings and the categorical defense of the statements by some other posters. Just yesterday, people walked away from me and a friend in a fancy downtown coffee place as we were some disease vectors. Mind you: these are likely fancy, "sophisticated" folks. Without sounding that I am condoning that reaction, I do see where they might come from, and I cannot fault them too much. At the end of the day, we all have to do what we think it is right. I do not regret for a moment for calling her statements out, but I also want to make sure that my comments are not seen as a attack on her person/her life experience. I can understand her frustrations (and I share some of them too), and but I cannot condone her statements.

Over the years, this forum has been a refuge for me from the daily stress of work, the politics and chaos in the world at large. I got to "know" wonderful people like Ben, Igrid, Seil, and many others, which without a doubt include Marlorena. We live different lives, which inform our perspectives. It si a beautiful things that we can come together on this forum. Hopefully everyone could move beyond this in a less damaging fashion as I firmly believe that people who love roses got to be fundamentally good and decent. If the things that we love most cannot unite us, I do not know what would.

Plumeria Girl -- you misunderstood my post. My point was that one cannot pick one thing about a group of people and view everything/everyone in that group from that prism. I was not cherry picking history. I will not respond to your other statements as I do not know where to start.

I'm sorry, but in view of some of the comments, I do feel compelled to chime in...

To argue that the "anything Chinese" comment was exclusive of the *people* of China who *make* Chinese goods was a rather poor defense of comments that painted a people with a very broad brush. But in view of much of what has been in the news of late, I could have overlooked that.

The doubling down, using an illness that has been killing folks in China as a defense for the offense, and then referencing memes disseminated by far-right groups with the intent of caricaturizing the Chinese as bat-eating freaks -- *those* are reasonable causes for offense. (Yes, bats are eaten in many communities throughout Asia. But the circulated trope - a video from a *different* Asian country -- has been widely circulated by alt-right groups, and the ignorance surrounding it has caused harm to folks of Asian descent.) I am not Asian and frankly have relatively few Asian friends, but I don't need to *be* nor to have friends who *are* something to recognize an obvious offense to a group.

I cannot believe that this needs explaining, but if you don't see the offense, please make an effort to understand. There are any number of news stories you might read. I'll offer you just one here for your consideration:

https://mashable.com/article/coronavirus-chinese-eat-bat-asian-racism/

I will apologize, on behalf of those who don't seem to understand, for the offense caused by fellow forum members. I'm not suggesting anything was said with malicious intent, but the comments AT BEST reflect insensitivity or unawareness. Please, let's all work to be more sensitive and aware of the perspectives of those we offend rather than defending the offensive.

And just to stay on topic, I'll reiterate:

Beautiful roses. Thanks for sharing.

Farmerduck, I am sorry to hear about those people in the coffee shop. It is as wrong, foolish, and hurtful for those people to behave in that racist way. When people do or say something that is deeply hurtful, the quickest and most instinctive response is to lash out -- to metaphorically slam the door on that person. It takes more reflection and empathy (and is less satisfying) to bite back the anger and extend a hand, inviting the person into the house, helping them to see why what they said was hurtful and understanding them better as well. Sometimes such a measured response is not possible, but when it is, it contributes to the hard work of building a better world. What you write above in your most recent post is opening that door. I myself am going to try to be better about opening doors on the internet rather than slamming them (God knows I do that often enough) and will think about this post as an example.

I was very interested in the conversation about the potential importation of Chinese roses. They would find many fans here in the Pacific Northwest.

Thank you, Krista. Like Ingrid said, this is a world that, more than ever, needs tolerance and kindness. While some lines cannot and should not be crossed, I myself will try to follow your example and am going to learn how better to communicate, in writing, on the internet, where shades/graduations are lost easily.

It could be presumptuous for me to say this, but I assume that the forums are escape for Marlorena too. I would have hated that she quit the forums because of what had transpired. So Marlorena, if you are reading this, please stay and continue to participate.

Yes, let's focus on the roses. After all, they are what we all came here for.

...edited.... too much information..

God bless xx

Bless you too. I do not know for sure whether I am failing to see racism. I see someone upset about human rights violations. It's ironic to condemn a person who I think cares very much about righting injustice . I do think Marlorena was meanly attacked. I think it is highly unlikely that people who get on a great high horse are themselves so much better people ...that they have rid themselves of all fallibility, all meanness, all potential to say something hurtful. It can be right to say your impression of a comment , and can be even better to try to get further information about what was meant. But to go with mere reactions as if they can define someone is not part of the solution, IMO. There are many ways to see things.....if shaming people hard is the right way , then you can be shamed too, or should be shamed. Nobody is above reproach so when you know that you are a little slower to point fingers. I like how KS Seattle values kindness. If one single thing taints the whole person we should all just give up. People are complex. People get to have room to grow. Anyway I don't see Marlorena's terrible sin. I do feel bad that some took it as a terrible slight. I don't think it's necessarily the right interpretation. I am sad for the awfulness of this experience for her.

Marlorena, I support everything you have said in this thread, and agree with it. I am so sorry to see you leave, but I sympathize with your reasons for doing so. May you have a bounteous spring rose season. Diane

Well said, Erasmus. Diane

For years, I have been reading this forum on a daily basis. Apparently, the world views of the posters that I respect and follow and those of mine are too far apart. I will quit the forum as well. May you all have a wonderful rose season.

farmerduck, please stay! You are family here!

It would be a shame if either of you left this forum because of this. Clearly some things were said that were at best very maladroit, but I would hope folks could get past that, make an effort to better understand the reasons for the pain, and move on. There are *very* real reasons for the hurt felt on both sides.

And other folks on the forum should not take sides and dig in when they have not walked in the shoes of another party, nor even made an effort to be more understanding of their point of view. For my part, if *my* comments caused offense or pain, I apologize. I merely wanted folks to consider what it's like to be in another party's shoes, and to give context in the form of one of many articles on the subject (that came up, yet had nothing to do with roses...)

Roses are the things that are supposed to give folks a reprieve from this kind of stuff. The world has too much tribalism and unwillingness to try to understand the perspectives of an "other," and *I* don't want to see that here either. It's what I want to escape.

Please stay, try to understand, apologize if needed, listen carefully to each other, and believe that folks intentions are not malicious.

This is just plain sad, I was feeling down today due to health issues I'm forced to deal with because of the outright neglect of doctors in my younger years. I struggle each and every damned day just to feel at times okay, as I sit and watch my elderly mother bounding with energy and enthusiasm. As for this thread, we're all concerned and many of us afraid of what's to come of this coronavirus, The last time I had the flu I was hospitalized, my resistance is low and there is no treatment for this new disease outbreak. The North America media downplays matters of what might soon be declared a global pandemic. I read of fear and frustration from within the above comments, I feel no ill will whatsoever against the good people of China, but it's now time for their government to take a good long hard look at food safety (cultural or not) and those so called wet markets. Just look at mad cow disease and it being a human induced occurrence that forced the change of how livestock can be fed. We keep learning, we go forward and this will get behind us, hopefully without exacting a terrible toll on mankind, every life is very precious!

Those who have stated of leaving the forum ... heck, smartin up and take a big breath and then start posting of your favorite blooms! You know for yourself you'll miss the forum and plenty of us will miss you in return! Disagreements happen, get over it! :)

I agree both Farmerduck and Malorena have been most valuable contributors to our forum, I wish they would both stay. We’ve known them for a long time discussed many topics with them, know they are good people and think of them as our friends. There are certain statements I objected to, but as I said before, even my mother and family say things that I disagree with, and I object to the words, I don’t reject the person.

But now I have to explain why it seems every Chinese poster has come out of the woodwork aghast at the progress of the thread:

When someone posts the pics of any European/Caucasian breeder, be it Tantau/Massad/Meilland/Warriner/Zary/Bedard/Jalbert/Austin/Delbard, others post compliments, talk about the breeder’s roses...there have been hundreds of such threads, and every single one has been complimentary, and stuck to roses. Everyone is polite, genteel, and ‘on topic’. Why is it that we have ONE thread about a Chinese breeder, suddenly everything awful and irrelevant is fair game...his roses are probably fake, and to conflate his despicability, his government is cruel and his country will infect us with deadly virus. Suddenly it’s ok to replace the golf claps with boxing gloves, discuss horrible non-garden topics over which this breeder has no efficacy. Yes, I get the comments are about Chinese State not Chinese people (My reading comprehension was top of the class). But why are we talking about ‘Political State’ at all in a thread about roses, and only at a most negative angle, only for the one Asian breeder? We don’t talk about immigration or gun violence (US State) in a Warriner thread. We don’t talk about health crisis (health insurance, opioids, anyone?) we just say Bedard’s roses are beautiful. It seems to me there is one set of rules when talking Caucasian breeders, another when talking that other non-European ‘foreign’ breeder. Even after it was established he worked with the Meillands and spoke at the World Federation of Roses, he was still inextricably linked to his background, his work could not speak for itself. If you are yellow, black or brown you have probably felt this clear distinction at some point in your life that you are some ‘other’ . Aspects of your background , over which you have no control, are OK when discussing you, the minority, and these irrelevant asides are invariably very negative, to bring down your overall worthiness. These same topics are off limits , never even crosses anyone’s mind to talk about, when discussing the majority. When I ran track , for example, people in the stands made fun of my squinty eyes, called out cling-clang sounds from the stands to imitate my how my name might sound (it’s Ben, by the way, and does not sound to me like clashing pots and pans). It made me ‘less than them’ regardless of how well I ran. Likewise, Jiang, the fake rose breeder from the deplorable disease ridden state, cannot be mentioned in the same breath as Austin, or even Jalbert. I’m sorry, but I have a word for this kind of behavior: racism.

So my first apology is to the thread starter, Oliver, who started a topic to talk about roses on a rose forum in Gardenweb. We should respected that and stayed on topic.

I for one am not going to keep commenting because it's like discussing over their head someone who is in the same room. Ot it's like putting someone under a microscope and not others. It causes pain. So I will quit. Not the forum. Quitting the forum seems like a permanent solution to a temporary problem. I am glad some people here can say , " I don't like blank but I still like you." That's big.

I do see how it's important to call out racism with no apology. But I thought she thought the rose breeder was a fake because she likes Austin a lot and wouldn't want him ripped off. I didn't conclude it had anything to do with his nationality. I'd have to go back and read the whole thread. She did add a couple of more things she felt critical of. I think Frozebud is right that food safety issues are something to look at. I don't have any ill will or condescension when I say that. And the things going on with Hong Kong are something to be concerned about . So if you look at each issue individuality there is some grain of truth there. Marlorena said she meant no disrespect to the Chinese people, only state policy and having some fear of the disease and she said maybe she was wrong about the breeder. I didn't think she doubted him because of his nationality.

I was just thinking that she may have had the sense that her friends here knew her background, knew her personal reasons for being so concerned about the Hong Kong situation. I imagine her trusting that nobody would take this negatively, that she was understood. I don't know. But not everybody reads all the posts and not everyone knows you that well. Ok, I do not want to stir the pot any further. I'm sorry about the awful things you went through , Ben.

I have always considered you very mature and thoughtful, Erasmus, and I thank you for reading my response, as I‘ve read yours, very carefully. I think two people can read the same thing and come to some different conclusions, and that’s OK, we learn when we read another‘s perspective. I agree this thread has caused more than enough hurt to go around, and we should probably move on.

...just to say, I have tried to pm Oliver, Rockridge Rose and farmerduck to offer my sincerest apologies for any offence caused but have not been able to do so, as the pm system doesn't work on their names... so I am saying it here..

...this is the jist of it... BenT, having just seen your post I include you in this too, but I'm not sure it will make any difference..

''...I do hope you don't mind me contacting you this way... I just want to say how sorry I am for the offence I have obviously caused you and others... I have written also to Oliver, farmerduck and some others .. trying to make amends in some way... I never intended to cause such a ruckus or turn the thread into something about me... I don't like being offended either - I flew off the handle on one occasion above.. and I am mortified if I have offended in return... I may edit or remove some of my posts, I shall think about that.. it may be best..

...so I am apologising sincerely to all those offended by my comments, especially from the Chinese American community..

...I don't hold grudges against anyone... the internet can be a difficult place, misunderstandings are rife, and I keep telling myself to exercise more care and refrain from discussing anything other than roses.. after all, that's why we're all here isn't it?..

...Please don't feel you need to reply to this message at all...''

I did write quite a bit more to Oliver on another matter, but won't repeat that here..

.

..may I also say thank you to those who have supported me...

…. and besides.. the first bud has appeared on one of my roses...

Malorena,

I’m so glad you’re back, please know that you are very well treasured here. We do learn from each other when we discuss sensitive topics, I wish we could do so without any hurt feelings. I thank you for your thoughtful words, and your roses are beautiful.

FrozeBudd, I appreciate your approach to the topic, mentioning somewhat of your personal struggles, fear and vulnerability of this new virus threat. I also had been thinking of that occurrence of mad cow disease discovered in 2015 within a Canadian herd of cattle, thankfully no human transmission in this incident. Food safety definitely must become China's (and all countries) utmost concern for prevention of further possible new virus outbreaks, all having very serious consquence to world health and economics. Your direct, yet blunted last few words made me smile and I'm thrilled to see that Malorena had obliged with lovely photos.

Welcome back Malorena, and your roses are beautiful :) Helen

Marlorena – this is Farmerduck. I got rattled by a few postings (not yours), and had deleted my Houzz account.

I got the new account mostly to say “thank you” for your gracious notes. I also want to apologize to you too: no matter how angry I was, I should have been more thoughtful in explaining why I felt the way I did. (I initially sent two messages. The first one was meant to be a silent moral support for Oliver. I meant to stop there, and was not able to stop myself.) I am sorry for the anguish I undoubtedly have caused you. Again, I was challenging your words, not you as a person. I know as human beings, we are all complicated and are often than not more than our words. We, me included, do say regrettable things when we are angry, frustrated or fearful.

I hope that you understand where I came from: anti-Asian sentiment has already been on the rise in this country even before coronavirus. I HAD TO be vocal and defend ourselves whenever I can.

Now back to the roses: yours are lovely, and I wish you many, many beautiful rose seasons to come.

The greatness of heart that's being shown here gives me hope for the world again. Thank you, every one of you, for rising above the pain and demonstrating the beauty and goodness of your souls that we've come to cherish all along. It brings tears to my eyes but they are very happy tears.

...thanks from me too, to those above who have recently responded with kind words... farmerduck and BenT - I'm very touched..... and thanks for going to all the trouble of re-registering Farmerduck… and that we can let bygones be bygones... and I know you all have fabulous roses that make me green with envy whenever I see them...

...I think this thread has gained something else too... the return of the much missed Ingrid, from SoCal…. I do hope you post some photos of your ever charming garden before very long... we've all been wondering what happened to you and were concerned...

Ingrid, I am so happy to see you posting again. I hope you will continue as you feel up to it. I miss your charming garden and views.

I am so very touched by everyone‘s comments here. Today when I worked in my yard and picked the last blooms of the season, I thought of you guys. Your kindness is truly inspirational.

these flowers are for each and every one of you. Thank you!!

America Cl. and the poets wife

Thank you so much for your kind comments. Many of my roses were destroyed by the combined ravages of roof rats and bunnies, and the rest were severely decimated, along with almost everything that was planted in my yard. That, along with my deteriorating physical condition, made it physically and emotionally difficult for me to post here. Just recently a few of the rose bushes grew some blooms, and I took heart again, but it remains to be seen what will happen in the coming months. I took a few pictures yesterday:

Mrs. B. R. Cant

William R. Smith

Mrs. B. R. Cant, SdlM and Mlle. Franziska Krueger

This is not a happy ending, it’s a happy beginning of friendships! What a great thread! Cheers! :-)

Ingrid thanks for sharing your beautiful blooms. You wouldn't know they had recent hardships. I hate roof rats. We have them here too. When I hear the Barred Owls at night, I am praying they are getting those stupid rats! They have chewed up a lot of my plants as well.

Mrs BR Cant is especially lovely. I love her fragrance too. She just gets its right, doesn't she!

summers, you said it so beautifully! sultry, this is the best the Mrs. has ever looked, what a gift that is. As are you all.

I am so happy to see everyone came to a mutual understanding of love. I was in tears and heartbroken and didn't know where to begin or where to end.

Yes, i been really sick and still sick. Have not been to work last week at all and still recuperating.

I am so happy to see all you guys !!

Oliver and Marlorena those are beautiful roses.

INGRID, holly Molly !! I missed you and wow !....look at those roses. They are gorgeous :))

I hope all you guys forgive me too in your hearts if i offended anyone or hurt anyone's feelings.

Glad to see this has come to a resolution of sorts. It broke my heart to see a group with so much common interest being torn apart from misunderstandings and words said in haste and heat. I'm glad to have you back Malorena, BenT, Farmerduck, Ingrid and everyone else. Jin, I don't think you could ever say a mean thing if you tried! I really care for everyone on this site and hope we've learned to breath before responding and try and find the correct words with which to disagree and question. It's a very difficult thing and I'm as bad as anyone in the heat of the moment. I've often thought this would be a most useful skill to teach in school. We actually did a bit in graduate school, but I think learning it from childhood would help us all, both as individuals and nations comprised of them. Ingrid, your roses are beautiful Marlorena, hope springs eternal which is really the soul of gardening! : ))

I am so relieved to see you back, Ingrid.

As usual, Ingrid, your posts are eloquent and insightful! So good to “see” you again here!

I just wanted to say how much I appreciate everyone‘s honest vulnerability here...what a great model of how, with earnest conversation, you can work through a difficult issue.

If only everyone could do this with as much grace and care as this group. Love you guys even more for this!! :-)