For me, more sempervivum and some new crevice areas, and I absolutely need some more fall color next year. So I'm excited for spring planted bulbs.

I have a lot of anticipation waiting to see all the new iris I acquired and planted this year. I also planted three hydrangeas and am anxiously waiting to see if they make it through the winter. I'm not sure what I will be planting, if anything, this coming season. I will concentrate a lot on my container gardens and annuals. And I just found out that I will be getting 4 weeks off from the end of may through mid-June to spend in the garden!

I always vow not to plant much more but then find treasures at the swaps that I must have. So next year are looking forward to seeing if any of the new iris bloom. Seeing if any of my roses make it through with this early start to winter. Getting all the great tomatoes and other veggies at the swaps to enjoy through the summer.

I have not got to checking out my seed stash so have not even started thinking about ordering seeds but maybe with the big snow coming this week I can at least take inventory. Looking forward to improving the flower beds here in Westminster and getting the two cold frames in the ground that the HOA approved. In Aurora the front yard is so busy it's more a matter of maintenance and thinning and some swapping out. The Aurora vegetable garden is in a state of transition after moving the high tunnel there from Westminster. So quite a bit of rearranging.

Heidi Denver, there was a way to add Autumn color that I discovered a few years ago. One has to be mindful that Spring chrysanthemum colors are readily available ... right after Memorial Day. Fortunately, they aren't all pink flowers.

What I have done is buy the mums on clearance. Cutting them back within a couple of inches from the soil line and transplanting them to the flower bed give adequate time for them to grow and bloom before fall frosts shuts them down. Mostly, yellows ... unless you are happy with those springtime pink colors.

November is just about the slowest month of the year for me. That is an Osbourne Seed catalog and they arrive very early, along with Harris and HPS. It's actually the next page over that has the escarole that I find more tasty than the radicchio but those two pages are such a colorful tease.

Yes, and maybe I will finally come up with a suitable pink cherry that won't split so easily in a dry climate and overhead watering ...

Steve

Steve, that's a great fall color suggestion! At the moment, I'm enjoying the snow day and finalizing the game plan for food on Thursday. I got the last of the bulbs, acorns and peach pits planted over the weekend, so nothing more to put in the ground. I think we have about a foot of snow so far.

We're contemplating a move in a few years, selling our place and taking over my parent's house, 30 minutes away. It's something I didn't think I'd ever be open to. But, as I get older, a more open, ranch style house in a quiet neighborhood, close to shopping has some appeal. It's a little daunting and sad to think of leaving here, too. I planted some larger trees that have been on my must-have list this year and finally feel like I have the "bones" of the yard in. It only took 20 years, lol!

Steve, gj and anyone else, you'll have to share tips on how to garden at 2 places while working full time, as I think I'll be doing that for a few years!

The current project for spring is revamping the veggie beds. The grass has really been encroaching and over time, I don't love layout. I've been dealing with it for years, but it could be so much better! It's hard to give up the garden for a growing season, but if I do and just container garden next spring, I'll be so much happier. DH is actually pushing to do it, so if he's willing, we better do it! I think I'm not going to order seeds this year. I have plenty on hand to plant containers.

Popmama, wow! You must be over the moon to have an entire month of prime planting weather at your disposal. You go, girl!

Barb

treebarb, I am over the moon. I keep saying I feel like I won *both* showcases on the Price is Right! I can hardly wait!

Happy Thanksgiving!

Gardening in multiple places, Barb? It took me a while to better understand that just because I can't see it, doesn't mean that nothing has changed. It isn't even as though there have been all that many unexpected things that have occurred - like the time Wiley Coyote chased a bunny into the garden and broke 5 stakes holding a trellis. He left plants and twine dangling.

I became a scheduling fanatic. Gardening is all about dealing with Life. There is growth and change and needs. I can also mention, wants and wishes! Have fun ... with Life.

Steve

Happy Thanksgiving!

I need to work on the having fun part, responsibilities have piled on these last few years and I've not made that enough of a priority. I agree, gardening is all about dealing with life. You just do it! You learn and grow and learn some more.

Have a wonderful holiday, everyone!

Barb

Steve

took me a looong time to get that photo on here!

Do you know of a beet variety that does well in summer heat?

Steve

I don't make pies, Digit, but I think any of the acorn type squashes would be "too wet" to work very well for punkin pie! I don't have room to grow squash here, but back in the day my parents always grew acorn! In the last ten years or so I've discovered (store bought!) butternut type squash, and I very much prefer the "drier" flesh over the acorns! So, unless you were to cook the acorn flesh long enough to "reduce" it before putting it in the pie, I think you'd have better luck with a butternut variety. Just my speculation! Since I've never actually done it--I obviously don't really know what I'm talking about!!!

With the beets, due to "technical issues" I haven't been able to grow beets for a buncha years now, but when I did grow them I never had any problem with them in the "summer heat!" I had two "major" problems! The first was leaf miners--'cause I really, really like beet greens--but the leaves always looked too gross to eat!! And--I have a really, really, really hard time thinning things, and since beets are compound seeds and come up in "little clusters," when I didn't thin them--most of the time!--they never developed into very big beets! The first problem I never found a fix for, and the second problem clearly had a fix--but I could never bring myself to do it! But even for the ones that wound up far enough apart to develop, I never noticed any problem with their development when it got hot out!

I don't really think the specific variety will make any/much difference! I grew Touchstone one year and really liked it! The other--red--one I grew isn't in your catalog! It's Warrior, and I grew that one because my brother in Illinois had grown it successfully for many, many years--and it can get HUGE and still be tender and good! There were other misc. varieties I tried for a year now and then, but I don't remember any of the names--so none of them ever really stood out!

Skybird

P.S. I got my Fedco catalog already! Won't be ordering any seeds this year tho! Barb and I went together on some orders last year--and I have enough seeds to last for several upcoming lifetimes! I am excited that I'm pretty sure--after about 6 years!--I finally found a replacement for my red Sweet Baby Girl cherry tomato! Due to the Roundup Catastrophe this year I didn't get many tomatoes, but I got enough of a couple varieties to taste them and I believe Sweet Aperitif is going to equal or exceed Sweet Baby Girl! Also tried Farthest North this year, it's a large red cherry, and the ones I got off of that one were very good too! Will be growing both of those again in 2020 to see how they do/taste in a "non-RU year!"

Thank you, Skybird.

My problem with beets is that the small ones are a favorite food. Thinning doesn't need to be much of a problem because I'm down there harvesting as soon as they amount to anything. Late sowings are inhibited by the heat and I don't much care for mature roots. They are near the opposite end of my preferred veggies.

Leaf miners. Removing the leaves has been my best solution.

I grew acorn squash for about 5 or 6 years but don't remember ever using them for pie. Delicata was a no-go. The squash matured like one year out of 4 trials. Now that my very poor harvest of Buttercup has been used up in Thanksgiving pies, imma gonna try cooking then putting a Spaghetti squash in the food processor .... using that for a pie ingredient. Wish me luck!

Buttercup and the related C. maxima are preferred but the C. pepo Spaghetti did just fine this year. It's new to me but C. pepo Jack o'Lanterns always grow well. Those are useless for pies but I feel like I'm swimming against the tide with not using a pie pumpkin or its kin ...

Yes, Butternut also make good pies but I have run into that maturing problem.

Steve

If you're not wild about beets, Digit, you might want to give the gold Touchstone variety a try! They weren't really "quite the same" as "normal" red beets! It's been a few years so I don't remember exactly--not sure how to describe it, maybe like they were a little bit "sweeter!?" And if you just baked or cooked them and ate them plain, you might try pickling them--that would be simmering them in a sweet and sour sauce as you're making it--it's very simple and I could send you or post the recipe. And to the basic recipe which is "plain" you can add some very thinly sliced onions, or, alternately, you can add some OJ concentrate in place of the water to give it an orange-juicy flavor (like cranberry-orange!)--and could add a little spice like a bit of ground allspice, or cloves, or some cinnamon--or anything else you really like. Could also use cranberry juice in place of the water, with or without spices, but I'm not wild about cranberry juice so I don't do that one!

Just some possibilities in case you happen to be in the mood to give them a try again!

My problem with thinning isn't that I don't have easy access to them--they're (they WERE) right at the end of my house! I just can't make myself pull out or snip off "perfectly good plants!" It's the same reason I have pothos coming out of the kazoo! Whenever they need to be cut back I just don't have the heart to throw the stems I cut off on the compost pile--so they go in water to make MORE--and more, and more, and...! The first couple years I grew beets, before the leaf miners got bad!--I was snipping the little ones for baby beet greens! Then the leaf miners increased exponentially, and I didn't have an excuse to "remove" any of them anymore!

I didn't think of seeding beets later in the year! My gut reaction is that that wouldn't work at all! I do think they prefer colder conditions when they're just starting--but once they get beyond the "tiny baby beet" stage I've never noticed them having a problem with heat.

Have you ever grown actual pie pumpkins for your pies??? They're quite different from "Halloween pumpkins," and I suspect they'd ripen earlier than most of the winter squash. I did that one year as a kid, LONG ago, but it seems to me that even the pie pumpkin flesh was wetter than butternut squash! Another suggestion! If you want to try the acorn squash for pies, rather than simmering them to reduce the moisture, you could also cook them and then let the flesh sit in a sieve over nite to drain off the excess water! I grew spaghetti squash one year--but I didn't like it as "spaghetti," so I never grew it again!

Just some possibilities to think about!

Skybird

I looked at Johnny's website and they have three pumpkins they actually recommend as the best for pie:

https://www.johnnyseeds.com/vegetables/pumpkins/pie-pumpkins/

Yes, I see those on page 109 of the hardcopy catalog, PopMoma. Two are right against my 100 day-to-maturity imposed limit but I have been somewhat discouraged by experiments with my Jack o'Lantern pumpkins, left over from those not needed to scare tick-or-treaters beside the front door ;o). Those experiments will continue this winter. I've learned that those pumpkins can be successfully substituted for zucchini in recipes and I will soon try a batch of pumpkin and chocolate chip cookies ..!

Sure, I'm willing to guess that "pie" pumpkins would be a better choice in pie. On the same page is the Long Island pie pumpkin. It bares noting that it is a C. mochata rather than a C. pepo and, once again, a late 100 day. It's probably much like the Autumn Crown that I grew in 2017 and 2018. Not bad but it wasn't quite flavorful enough. Also, what Libby uses in the cans is a C. mochata. So are those Butternut, rightly acclaimed by Skybird.

The Cinnamon Girl pie pumpkin is a C. pepo and earlier! I just might go with that. I do, however, know that no amount of cinnamon will get my Jack o'Lanterns where I want to go in a pie.

Steve

There are a couple of less-than 90 day Butternut varieties in the new Harris Seed catalog that came today.

Also, oh so many punkins!

Steve

Hey!

https://www.johnnyseeds.com/growers-library/vegetables/winter-squash-eating-experience-slideshow.html 

But of course, this guy is just talking about flavor ... sorta. (Except that Candy Roaster idea, where the squash is filled with pumpkin pie filling and used in place of a pie crust. ;o)

Steve

HI Digit,

I got a catalog a few days ago from a place called Seeds 'n Such--have no idea where they got my address, I never heard of them before! But they have a lot of tomato seeds, so I paged thru the catalog to see what I could see! They have a butternut squash, Early Butternut Hybrid, that they say is 82 days! Of course one never knows how accurate that is in any particular climate! But it surprised me when I saw such a short growing season for winter squash!

They also have a pie pumpkin that they say is 95 days. It's Small Sugar, a/k/a New England Pie! Don't know anything about it but it's a cute little thing in the picture!!! In the description it says: "Undoubtedly the best pie pumpkin, although the larger specimens can be carved for Halloween."

They also have...

Sweet Aperitif red cherry tomato seeds! That's the one I decided this year is going to replace Sweet Baby Girl! They say it has a brix of 13, and describe it as "even sweeter that Sungold!" Based on the few I got to eat this year, I think that might be true! So if you like SWEET, I recommend trying Sweet Aperitif this year! It's also available at Fedco, and it's open pollinated so after getting the first few (pretty expensive) seeds you can save your own--free!

Skybird

P.S. Your link doesn't work, Digit!

How about this?

Johnny's winter squash

I've tried Early Butternut, Skybird. It grew, produced and matured. It wasn't very productive.

The bush-types haven't been very productive and have had little vigor, in dealing with the difficult weather, we sometime have. Early growing season chill, up-&-down temperatures, , wind ... then ... if they get through that and produce ... the squash have to mature enough to make it, at least, to Christmas. Or, I'm casting about fer sumthin new!

Steve

I made a butternut squash pie and brought it to one of the fall swaps. Must have turned out okay, no one openly complained. It was a store bought butternut so I can’t attest to it’s growing season or days to maturity. There is someone here in NE Colorado that is able to grow butternuts on a scale large enough to market at King Soopers, at least it SAYS the farm is located in Brighton. This year I am trying a couple of Johnny’s butternuts, butterscotch and JWS 6823 that I have seed on hand for a while but never have gotten around to growing. Metro and Waldo look interesting but since I am moving the garden to a new location entirely, which is much smaller than last years, I won’t have room for large vines.

With that being said, my main interest this year is getting vegetables at all. With the herbicide last year that killed virtually every plant I had, I have to start a brand new garden yet again from scratch. I’m not looking forward to the weeks of tilling and digging after I spent so much effort last year that turned out to be a colossal waste of time. And since I didn’t get anything done this fall, who knows if the ground thaws out early enough that I can even get it done. I was so miserable and bitter about what happened this summer that I wasn’t even planning on doing any gardening next year.

This was, the first seed catalog that I ever saw - I'm fairly sure.

No, it wasn't in 1870! Sometime in the 1960's. Dang. It was already almost 100 years old! I'm behind on most everything ... better git to goin so I kin catch up!

Steve

With an online and lots of local garden center availability: Do you have an important source for seed?

I realized today that this is Renee's Garden, for me. I have never ordered from them. They are well represented on the seed racks that I peruse. So often, those are the packets of seed that I'm bringing home. I wonder if those are in your local garden center ..? Their business office is in California but shipping is from Boulder, CO.

Steve

Johnny’s out of Maine is probably where I wind up spending most of my money on seeds. They are by no means cheap but Their selection and quality are both great. Plus in my experience, while the seed packets themselves are more expensive, they also give you more seed than most companies. Their bean packets for example are 175 seeds where most places you get around 50. They have a short growing season in Maine, like we do here in the Rockies so many of their varieties are suited to our location better than midwestern or southern seed companies.

I get virtually all my seeds from just three companies! None of them sell GMO seeds of any sort--that's part of the reason I like to deal with them!

Probably my "main" one is Fedco. Fedco is a cooperative, so they're not a big out-to-get-your-money conglomerate! They have a great selection and really good prices, and for things I definitely want to grow every year they have "large size" seed packets, which makes the price per seed very cheap--and shipping is free on orders over $30! They also have potatoes, and sell trees and bulbs.

https://www.fedcoseeds.com/about_fedco.htm

Second is Sand Hill, and their prices are almost ridiculously cheap. It's a mom & pop operation, and they grow almost all of the seed they sell. They have more than 700 varieties of tomatoes! And while their catalog says their packets contain "at least 25 seeds," I've never gotten that few! Most of the time I get somewhere between 100 and 200--don't think I've ever gotten less than 50! Most of their seed packets run from $1.25 to $2.50, with a few higher, and some as low at $1.00! Shipping for seeds is $3 per order of any size. But you do need to fill out a paper order form and put it in a real live envelope in the real live mail with a check to order from them! They also sell sweet potatoes and peeps--not the marshmallow kind! I like supporting a small company that's helping to preserve diversity! Sand Hill is a non-profit, and it is literally run by a husband and wife, with the help of a few others!

[They're updating their catalog now, but a lot of it is still 2019 info!]

https://www.sandhillpreservation.com/seeds-more-info

And the third is Seed Savers! Another non-profit that falls into my own personal "good company" category! They work cooperatively with other preservation organizations, and, in addition to seeds, have a large apple orchard where they're preserving hundreds of varieties of heritage apples, and are also preserving heritage grape varieties. They sell a limited number of heritage apple trees each year. They also have/are preserving, but don't sell!, heritage chickens! Their prices are a bit higher than the above two companies, but, like Fedco, they have "large size" packets of many things, so for seed you use every year you can save on "per seed" prices. (For things with long seed viability I've gotten into ordering the larger packets, and Barb and I often split seeds from the big packs!)

Seed Savers is in NE Iowa, at Decorah, and if you're ever going to be in or going by the area I highly recommend a stop at their farm. I was able to do that in '13, and I really enjoyed it! It was spring so they were just planting their display gardens, but later in the year it would be really fun to see everything "grown up!" Besides the gardens, they have hiking trails--I did a really short one, and I went to the apple orchards and walked around in them--they were blooming, and looked at the grapes, for a while. If I'm ever in the area again I'll go back, and plan more time to hike one or two of their longer trails! [And I can recommend a nice little cabin to stay in there!!!]

https://www.seedsavers.org/mission?_ga=2.55609134.486231633.1578349815-269583810.1578349815

Digit, I rarely buy "seed rack" seeds, so I can't say I've ever "noticed" Renee's Garden seeds. I checked out the site, but, compared to "my" three companies above, there didn't seem to be all that much of a selection, and the prices are higher than I'm usually paying--at Fedco and Sand Hill for sure. I enjoyed looking around the site, but can't say that I'll ever be buying anything there.

Zach, I haven't checked out a Johnny's catalog for a long time, but I seem to remember when I did one time that I thought their prices were too high for me, and their shipping was high and added too much to the price of the seeds. I know other people around here like Johnny's too, but I'm not one of them!

Skybird

Johnny's often gets most of my seed $.

However, I like to visit the garden center. I'm forgetful and chasing down a single packet of 2 online can be bothersome and expensive.

Perusing there today ;o) Today, the floor space for the racks must have been about 1/3rd of what it will be in another 6 weeks. I found employees 6, although I think one was on break. They outnumbered the customers at midday.

Steve

I have never ordered from Fedco or Sand Hill, though when I'm researching varieties, Fedco pops up a lot (I never purchase a variety without first doing a google search on it and reading several different descriptions).

I have ordered from Seed Savers and I check their catalog every year but while Iowa might get colder than the Front Range (they are zone 4 I believe where most of us are somewhere between 5-6) but judging by their selections, their winter must start well after Labor Day and end long before Memorial Day. I actually was in Des Moines last November when we brought a load of buffalo to a wildlife refuge there. Iowa was surprisingly beautiful but I spent a winter in the Midwest once though and it's an experience I have no inclination to repeat.

Johnny's definitely isn't cheap, I will attest to that. But, I think they are a good value. $4.75 for 350 beet seeds as opposed to $3.25 for 100 from SEE. Most people probably don't need 350 beet seeds though and Johnny's does market more to larger growers.

I made a much larger order than I probably should have on native perennial seeds from Prairie Moon. Well, the seeds are actually pretty reasonable, an 1/8th oz of milkweed (about 600 seeds) for $3.00. That's about what most places charge for just a pinch of those seeds (milkweed is wildly expensive, up around $200 a pound). Anyway, what got me with Prairie Moon was their trays of potted plants. Sure, the math comes out to just under $4/plant which isn't terribly unreasonable, but the trays are 38 plants...

I have 21 eggs sitting in a incubator due to hatch in a little over a week, if you're looking for "peeps" Skybird, I can set you up ;).

Most of the garden centers I frequent close for a few weeks around the holidays, but I'm typically one of the first customers once they re-open. They often have last years seed packets on sale while they work on restocking their shelves with fresh merchandise. Plus I have to resupply my starting equipment. Pots, cell packs, starting mix etc... I used to buy most of my "off the rack" seed (like you, Steve, I'm not going to pay shipping on the odd few packets that I missed with my main order) from Botanical Interests. A local Colorado Company that generally has quality seeds, but the amount of seed you get is kind of on the low side. They also used to have a lot of really cool species and varieties but over the past couple years their selection seems to have diminished.

I got my Prairie Moon catalog today, Zach! Prairie Moon is where I got the sweetgrass seed from! I'm also gonna do a quick post on your "winter project" thread with something about wildflower seeds from them!

For anyone interested in native wildflowers or grasses, I highly recommend Prairie Moon! They have seed in packets and also in large quantities for "restoration" projects, and they have a bunch of different wildflower mixes for a variety of different conditions.

You should try Fedco sometime. Getting $30 worth of seeds to get the free shipping is pretty easy to do, and I'm pretty sure you'd be pleased with what you got!

I've looked at Botanical Interests seed at Paulino's in the recent past, and, like you say, there's so few seeds in the packets--it turns out to be very expensive "per seed!" When I was still working at Paulino's, at the end of the season they'd always put the "left over" seed packets in baskets in the lunch room for anybody and everybody--employees!--to pick up whatever they wanted--and I'm still using some of those seeds at times--left there in 2000! I'm always amazed by how long some seeds remain viable! (But definitely not parsnips!!!)

Skybird

I used to get the Prairie Moon catalog, but for some reason it quit showing up. I just check out the website. I have never ordered from the before, I always "miss the boat" and remember to check them out when pretty much everything is already sold out for the year. But this year I got my order in on time!

Another place that looks good for native seeds that is more focused on species from our area (Prairie Moon is great, but a lot of their seeds are for plants from the wetter tallgrass prairie and eastern states) is Western Native Seed. I think they are located in Coaldale, CO. I haven't ordered from them before though. They have lot of higher elevation species. My FAVORITE native seed source, although they sell by the pound, is Pawnee Buttes Seed in Greeley. The owner, Donnie I think his name is, has decades of experience in CRP and restoration planting and the staff is amazingly helpful. I have also purchased seed (again, only by the pound) from Arkansas Valley in Denver and they are a good company as well (and usually cheaper), but I think Pawnee Buttes has more experience and has a little better customer service so for me the extra cost is worth it. Of course most people aren't planting 80+ acre restoration sites or trying to grow pasture/range so these probably aren't very good resources for most people (although if you are thinking about replacing your wasteful, illogical Kentucky bluegrass lawn, both have more sustainable options for turfgrass seed that are WAAY better suited for our region).

I will definitely check our Fedco Skybird. Like I said, I don't know WHY I have never ordered from them, I have been on their website tons of times, but for some reason I have never actually "shopped" there. $30 is extremely easy for me to hit, I typically spend about $80 on seeds a year haha (although I only actually grow about 2/3 of the stuff I buy... apparently the idea of growing things is easier for me than actually following through with it).

Hey, how come you are calling Kentucky Blue Grass "illogical," Zach?

I used to grow KBG seed! That is, I worked for a farm where KBG was grown. If you mean illogical because we filled the air with smoke every year because the acres of grass produced more lawngrass seed that way - then it borders on the criminal. The state government told EPA that they would regulate the burning. Then, the Idaho legislature, in its infinite wisdom, decided that the farmers could regulate that themselves, burdened as they were in the production of food ... err ... lawngrass seed! So, with the first violation, the EPA shut down the entire local industry.

Your relationship with some of those companies reminds me of mine with some whose offering I look longingly at every year but have never ventured an order.

Steve

I'm not sure about where you're at in Idaho, Steve, but here on the Front Range, KBG is one of the worst grasses for our arid climate and low fertility soil. Millions of gallons of water and millions of pounds of fertilizer are dumped on Colorado lawns annually try try and keep KBG looking BHG worthy. While it's a great boon to corporations like Scott's, it's not only a drain on homeowner's bank accounts and local water supplies, it's an environmental nightmare. There are so many options from a variety of fescues to native prairie grasses, like buffalograss and blue grama, that will provide a better looking lawn without the excessive effort, money, and resources.

Burning fields, pastures, and rangeland is actually a good thing in my opinion. It benefits to crop (whether that is sod, forage, or grains) and in "natural" setting, it's a critical part of ecosystem health. It improves soil, helps to cycle nutrients in a natural way (reducing the need for chemical fertilizers) and when timed right can be an effective control measure for weeds (which reduces the need for chemical herbicides). By improving the health and vigor of grasses, it allows them to more effectively sequester excess carbon from the atmosphere. A large field or pasture of healthy prairie grasses will likely absorb far more carbon over it's lifetime than it will create through periodic burning. Unlike trees, grasses store most of the carbon they take in in their massive underground root systems rather than in huge above ground trunks, branches and leaves so that when they burn, that carbon is left in the ground rather than being released into the atmosphere.

Places that are zoned as Ag here in Colorado have no restrictions on burning and every fall a good number of farmers burn their fields after harvest. This spring I will probably take advantage of this since I have a lot of brush piles to get rid of. We conduct a few thousand acres of Rx burns every year at work as well, but we are bound by certain restrictions that dictate when we can and cannot burn there.

I'm planning to post a "real" response to you, Zach, when I have time, but right now I'd like to comment that it's the people and the sales pitches far more than the KBG itself that are the problem with KBG! It's the people who actually believe they need to water their KBG three or four times a week to keep it from dying, and it's the stores and the companies that advertise their "four times a year" "systems" for "keeping your lawn healthy," and all the people who fall for that! KBG is far, far more drought tolerant than people believe--if it's watered correctly--as in slowly, because of our clay soil, and to get the water DEEP into the soil.

When I go on my fall trip I'm gone for about four weeks--my KBG doesn't get any water while I'm gone--no matter what the temp is (September)--and when I get back it may not "look very good," but it is far, far from dead. When I'm home it gets watered DEEPLY about every two to three weeks, so it has DEEP roots--in self defense! Sometimes I use a slow soaker hose and sometimes I use a "low" sprinkler which I turn on and off and on and off to be sure it's soaking in and not running into the gutter. Every couple years--when I get around to it!--I do use weed & feed in spring or early summer, mostly for the "weed" factor! I consider the sales pitches for four "applications" a year to be total scam and just one more part of our money, money, money Greed Society! Just my opinion! My grass doesn't look Crayon Green at any time, but it also doesn't die if it doesn't get watered for "a few" weeks. Some HOAs REQUIRE a certain number of square feet of "grass," and I suspect if somebody tried to put in an alternative grass they'd be required to replace it with KBG pretty quickly! As long as we have "typical" city subdivisions, and typical city codes, I think KBG is gonna be around for a long time--but if the Corporate Suits ever stopped trying to stuff more dollars into their pockets, and people stopped being sheep and falling for the line that their grass "needs" to be watered and fertilized constantly, it would certainly improve upon the issues you guys are talking about. (Even when there are watering restrictions, the "requirements" say you can't water your grass more than three times a week! Say what!!!) KBG CAN be grown without countless gallons of water running into the gutters--washing countless pounds of chemicals into our water systems.

ALL just my opinion,

Skybird

Infrequent deep water is definitely the ticket Skybird. Unfortunately it doesn't usually keep KBG from going dormant in the heat of summer. Much like your sweetgrass, it is a C3 cool season species that without lots and lots of water all the time "goes to sleep" during the hottest part of the year. Most people desire a lush, Kelly green lawn from April Through October and so the natural dormancy period in July and August is a "problem." Folks crank up the water AND fertilizer regimen in an effort to thwart mother nature. This isn't an issue, or even necessary, places further east that have higher humidity to reduce evaporation from the soil and also get regular summer rains. Unlike us who regularly see no rain for 6-8 weeks at a time and who are dependent on late summer monsoons that more and more frequently fail to materialize.

Comparatively a warm season grass lawn, like buffalograss and blue grama, wont green up until later and wont stay green as late, but will remain actively growing with almost no water throughout the entire summer. It's also exceptionally well adapted to low fertility soil (the majority of the great plains was a nitrogen-deficient ecosystem until agriculture arrived), However, some of the drawbacks is that these species don't tolerate traffic like KBG does and, like I said, wont "green up" until late May-early June and will not stay green until Halloween.

I have heard there was a time in American history when lawns consisted of a perennial mix of grass and Dutch white clover, which would be a great lawn I think. But for some reason ANYTHING besides a solid monoculture of KBG became taboo and the increasing accessibility of pesticides to homeowners has probably literally caused this turf mixture to go extinct. Clover is sometimes used as a cover crop for newly seeded lawns, but as far as I can tell, it's designed to be a short lived situation. The clover is either an annual species or is killed once the grass is established.

I know my soapbox diatribes aren't going to change hearts or minds any more than I will convince anyone that honey bees are an invasive species that stand about the same risk of extinction as cows or chickens. HOA's and new housing developers are among the worst offenders with their wanton despoliation of the landscape and ridiculous injunctions on what homeowners must and must not do that have no basis in understanding of the basic ecology and resources of this region. I know, I sound like an old curmudgeon but I guess this is the hill I am willing to die on.

Hey,

I have Dutch clover in my lawn. And, there is fescue, at least, where I overseeded it under a tree not long after I moved here. I think that it may be the dominant grass in that location. I learned later that you can match lawn grass colors and I guess that might be true, cross-species. Anyway, the color under that tree is very different from elsewhere in the yard.

Oh yeah, there is quake grass in an especially sunny location. Wish it wasn't there but that's true for the dandelions and lawn violets. Of course, the dandelions have those bright, sunny flowers and the violets cover the lawn on the north side of the house with charming little blooms, for awhile.

Steve

Well, hey, that's a diverse lawn you've got there! To be honest, I don't know what your conditions are in Idaho or how you manage your lawn so I'm really not trying to judge you, or anyone else specifically for your choice of turfgrass. Just a general "irk" of mine out here on the Front Range seeing sprinklers running with reckless abandon in mid-August despite the fact there hasn't been so much as a cloud in the sky since June. Seems to me there's much better uses for one of our most precious, and scarce, resources.

That may leave you wondering what I have growing out in my yard, well it's a nice mix of kochia, pigweed, lambsquarters, goatheads and numerous other weeds. Theres a few sunflowers that show up along with prickly poppies. There was some redwhisker clammyweed the year we moved in. It didn't come up last year but I did get a handful of stemless evening primrose. Cheatgrass, six-weeks fescue, false buffalograss, and sand dropseed I think are the only grass I have in the yard...

L

Grass is for playing football, baseball and soccer on!

There is still a Jack o'Lantern pumpkin in the basement! The spaghetti squash was met with less than enthusiasm as a pasta replacement. We like pasta, sometimes rice but a good amount of wheat pasta. I don't think that we can easily replace conventional pasta. I wasn't lucky with spaghetti squash run through the food processor as a pumpkin pie ingredient, it turned out as an unlucky choice.

Altho, there is sometimes trouble with the buttercup and kabocha maturing, they have generally had good seasons in the garden; 2019 was a serious one-off. I chose not to go with several of the other species. What did I decide to do? Buy seed for the earliest pie pumpkin that I could find: Cinnamon Girl ! (expensive!)

I hope that "short vines" doesn't mean low-vigor. Some varieties of bush squash have been disappointing.

Many seeds arrived in the mail, yesterday; expecting more, today. Included is a diakon radish variety especially for tasty leaves, I am hoping that the roots develop well also and are useful. A North Star bell pepper to grow head-to-head with King of the North. I guess I can also say head-to-head with Colossal but that is supposed to be an improved Whopper. It will be good to have Whopper back and it did well without improvement so I'm somewhat confident. King of the North does fine but I'm not too happy with the fruits.

An early melon, Petit Gris de Rennes looks real promising. I'm trying a different type of green Asian eggplant - Choryoku. The other one was fine (Kurume) but the name didn't quite have the ring to it that our more favored partner Shoya has. Hey, I've got preferences and some of them are unapologetically idiosyncratic!

And, Sweet Treats tomatoes to see if I can come up with a pink cherry that won't split. See, I'm practical ... There are some interesting Starflower Scabiosa and another try at a different broom corn (Texas Black) for DW's dry flower arranging. Last year, the broom corn never quite got to blooming.

Notwithstanding 2019, there are lots of what I think of as tried-&-true varieties back again. Including, Portuguese kale -- since it's true that I'm a little tired of trying to like collards ... Not having the Portuguese kale at all, was a little unkind. There are a couple of more varieties of basil but free seeds for something that I would be happy to try is okay, as long as they are fungus-resistant. Komatsuna will be back, good/trustworthy performance before. Oh, and there will be several new bok choy varieties to try ... not that there was anything wrong with Mei Qing.

Good Heavens! I hope this olde guy can pull this off. I'll be referring back to this post - trying not to forget getting these seeds planted. (of course, it's new seed so they can wait on the shelf until 2021 if'n I forget ;o)

Steve