Thanks for feedback Jamie, I will try those! Lovely lemons, mine are still dark green!

We love Tatsoi and wish we planted more in late summer this year. Dragon tongue bean not so much. We were disappointed by Gai Lan Chinese Broccoli (Very tough) so I wonder if his Yod Fah would be more tender.

Ooh I forgot about the dragon tongue beans- last year they did great, this year they didn’t. I’ll try them again before I make a final decision

The last new apple I looked into had a $1 royalty with the seedling purchase, which I could handle. But then they wanted 10¢ a year, every year for ever.... That was the deal breaker. I buy one tree I have to mail them a dime every year. Fifty some cents in postage. Not going to happen. And then we found a farm market selling the apple. We tried one, I called it the Chernobyl apple. Big lobe sticking out one side. The apple had hard pieces mixed in with the flesh of the apple. Not foreign matter just hard bits of the apple.

There are 1000's of apple varieties, some are excellent for eating fresh, some are excellent for other purposes. Many of the excellent fresh eating varieties have been destroyed by the improvements they make. The same people then come out with a new apple to replace the one they destroyed.

I spent a lot of time looking into the Red Delicious apple. Wiki lists about 50 sports of Red Delicious with next to no info on each. The "link" has a half dozen or so with extensive info on each. When it was discovered/developed and the improvement. Looking over all that info it's my opinion the improvement that destroyed the Red Delicious apple was the one that colored early. So it could be picked even earlier before ripening.

edit:

The early coloring Red Delicious was found in 1969 and received a plant patent in 1971, which would make my early memories of a delicious Red Delicious possible. The USDA calls the early coloring apple the Earlibrite Delicious.

</edit

Instead of developing a "new apple" why doesn't someone investigate going back to one of those old sports of Red Delicious. A proven apple for taste, for appearance. I'm too old, I'm thinking someone here could at least put in one of each. I'm going to try 4 of them on two rootstocks and all in one hole for my own use.

For some reason apple trees do not do well where we live now. I've tried half a dozen or more varieties over the past 30+ years and they never thrive. I suspect that it has to do with the wild juniper and cedar trees that are quite prevalent here. At our last house we planted a terrific apple tree that is still there and producing.

John and Cindy have y'all checked out Willis Orchard Company? They have 22 different kinds of apple trees and some 3 in 1 and 4 in 1 trees. The 3' trees are around $10. They have a Dietrich strain of Red Delicious that they claim is the most flavorful variety. The also have seedlings-10-2' trees for about $34.

Rich- At 10.95 an apple seedling is an excellent price. I looked up the Dietrich strain of Red Delicious which I see from several sources including Dietrich Orchard which is big. And I looked on Wiki and at the "link". That one's not on either list.

I'd guess there are many strains out there. Most of them are mutations as in branch or tree mutation where someone found a tree or maybe just a limb with different apples. They're still Red Delicious, but with a different twist. I'm thinking of growing those from before they were deep red, They still have those nubs at the bottom. They LOOK like a Red Delicious but obviously different. So that when you look at it you say well Red Delicious ain't so hot any more, but this one is different! I plan to also grow the first one that went near all red. And maybe the one that colors before it's ripe.

When I was young Red Delicious apples were delicious. I want to find out how they went bad. But I'm still aware that perhaps we've been spoiled with apples that are truly better tasting than those oldies. But I need to search in chronological order and I don't know where Dietrich falls.

John it says that the original Red Delicious was called Hawkeye Delicious in 1870. They are sold out on most sites but a place called Trees of Antiquity has them for $39.95 and they have a great description too. I would post the link but I am on my phone now. It does state that you have to have a different variety for pollination. John you can type in Hawkeye Apple-Trapple Orchard and it has the entire history of the Hawkeye-Red Delicious apple

Rich-I have the Hawkeye on my list. From my notes the farmer sold the Hawkeye to Stark Bros after winning a contest for the best tasting apple. Stark renamed the apple Delicious. Just for reference here are the two images from the USDA.

Hawkeye

And this is Delicious:

The background should be the same density in both pictures. If you allow for that the two apples are amazingly similar. And you can see the lobes a Red Delicious has on both apples.

The next one if you go by the USDA list is the "Starking" discovered as a limb mutation in 1921 and released in 1924:

It's loosing its green color especially on the bottom.

Next is the "Lalla Red Delicious"

I realize I need to change my story a few posts up. I have the date when the Red Delicious was released that colored up before it ripened as 1929 and it should be 1969. That would make sense as it would relate to my memory of a very delicious apple when I was young.

This one was introduced in 1957. The description says "indistinguishable from Starking Delicious". But it looks very much redder in these pictures.

The Redspur Delicious:

Looking at the scale on the background this one is Huge to me! This one was probably not being sold in stores when I was a kid.

Then there's the apple that was introduced so that growers could pick it before it ripened. Here's the Earlibrite Delicious:

It's ripe on the outside, but still green on the inside. Who cares! I won't be growing that one. It's my understanding that an unripe apple has a lot of starch. As it ripens the starch turns to sugar. Correct me if I''m wrong, but a starchy apple tastes bland. Also; to me the Red Spur Delicious looks taller, the Earlibrite looks flatter, not quite so Red Delicious looking. That might be this particular apple. DW says that today in the stores some are taller looking and some flattened... so lets ignore that.

I apologize for using so much column inches here. You read everywhere how the Red Delicious is such a bad apple. No one goes into why. But you have to wonder if the old apples are still available why doesn't anyone go back to growing the good ones. In my opinion; if a shopper sees an apple the shape of a Red Delicious but with different coloring they just might buy it. But I want to grow some of these apples.

Edit 11/28/19 to add a link to a pdf file that lists the number of apples growing in the state of Washington. There is information on many sports of Red Delicious growing in the mid 1980's and info on what had been planted for many years prior to the report. Amazing to me is that there were 22 million Red Delicious growing just in that state.

We are in for a messy Thanksgiving and weekend- http://www.memphisweather.net/forecast.shtml

How about the rest of you? We are not traveling this year (well not very far) fortunately.

I am a few days behind in reading this thread...but wanted to pop in and tell Cindy - Thanks! Got the seeds today.

Happy Monday! We are getting ready for a cold spell with lows in the 20's so time to drain the irrigation system including no more water in greenhouse until spring. Oh well at least I don't have to walk a mile to a river!

Working on garden plan for spring since it is raining outside! Bought my asparagus from Debruyn seed (20 Purple Passion and 10 Jersey Knight) and shopped at Victory Seeds in Oregon and of course Baker for other veges. Still on the fence about what long day onions to grow? Last year grew Whethersfield Red from seed which did well but were small. Also grew some generic sets that were barely OK. Any suggestions?

Margi - Glad that the seeds arrived before the move.

Jamie - We will be getting a cold front late Wednesday and Thanksgiving Day is supposed to be very windy with wind chill numbers. But it will be above freezing during daylight hours.

This past Saturday we got a little over an inch of rain. Much needed and very glad that it wasn't the "s" word. Still cleaning up gardens here.

Cindy- the number in the column is the high for the day row, and the low for the night row. I wish they made it more clear haha, but I, used to it now

Jamie - Guess it would have helped if I had scrolled down the the second chart. :-)

FYI: I've never posted here, but wanted you to know that vgkg was banned today. I don't know what's going on with this company, but all of the good people seem to be disappearing; many long-timers with 20 plus years at Garden Web. This happened on Hot Topics. I've never seen him post anything that would warrant such harsh treatment. It's very disheartening

Good grief. Hopefully he will rejoin under a new user name.

He'll need to get a new ISP number. That's how they track you.

I haven't been able to find the 'Hot Topics' forum. Anyone else?

It looks like the central part of the US is in for some severe weather today. We are expecting storms with high winds tonight- possibly some isolated tornadoes, but I think that it's only a small chance.

Jack, Jacob, and Margi- it looks like you are in for worse weather than we are.

Cindy- that forum is under the list of "Garden Forums" https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/hottopics It's mostly a cesspool of mud-slinging and hyperbole. Enter at your own risk, hahaha From what I can tell there is very little of value in that forum, but at least it keeps the mess out of the more informative forums on this site.

Jamie - Thanks. Curiosity is the only reason I was looking for it. Want to see what all the fuss is about. Am sorry to see vgkg go.

Hope everyone is safe during this nasty weather. Today is going to be nice here but tomorrow is all changes.

It's mostly a cesspool of mud-slinging and hyperbole.

Unfortunately, it has to a large extent been taken over by those without a desire for real discussion. Wasn't always that way.

Great weather today, Hazy sun and 58 for the high. Am wondering what the direction of the wind is for tomorrow. I'd like to clean up the leaves here for the holiday, but waste of time with the 40+ MPG wind gusts predicted for tomorrow. So I went on the internet to find what the wind is doing now in St Louis. Accuweather says 10-15 MPH from the SE. Is that what you're getting?

Finished my second potato bed yesterday. Hope to finish #3 today.

I don't go to the cesspool. Try to keep a low profile and if I make a misstatement I admit it and apologize.

I finished both passes on the 3 potato beds. I now have 38 feet of beds 4 1/2'wide, enough for 76 row feet of potatoes. That may be too much, which I'll judge from how much of our stash we eat over the winter. I'm pretty sure we're going to run out.

I dug these a spade deep on the first pass amending with two inches of mushroom manure. I figure I dug 10 inches below grade. I also maybe scratched down a little more. By the time I finished the second pass I'm at least 8 inches above grade. So I have 18 inches of loose amended soil. I can't handle a rototiller and can't find a tractor with a tiller/plow to rent. But I got this done and improved my health. I broke a rather new spade last spring, but it was guaranteed. Coming up I plan to start on next years tomato fields in fresh dirt.

I went to my tomato stash and picked out 4 nice large beefsteak tomatoes for Thanksgiving dinner. Having a tomato from the garden was a tradition of my mother. I want to make sure these are ripe, but I'm going to have to put them back in the unheated garage before long. Neither she or I have had such nice tomatoes this late. An excellent year!

Good work John! Cold here tonight for west coast...mid 20's...and dark at 4:30 PM.

I'm still looking for favorite onions to try.

Len, Debruyn Seed is about a half hour drive from our house. Your asparagus had to travel a long ways! I'm going to try to remember to take a drive over there next spring. It's a fun place to look around and reminds me of gardening with my father who passed away almost 10 years ago. He lived closer and bought seed from their bulk bins years ago.

I tried Red Wethersfield Onions, too. Mine did not get very big, but that is probably mostly my fault. They did not get the care and fertilizer needed for optimum growth. I bought them because I wanted to grow red onions from seed and this variety was available locally for a good price. Not sure what I'll do for next year.

It's raining here. Today's weather report called for "fading sun"....not quite sure what that meant.

Len. - surely Walla Walla should work well in the NW.

Ailsa craig has been a good long day variety also.

for whites I’ve had decent success with Sierra blanco, but it is an intermediate day variety.

I got an email from Johnny’s Seeds yesterday announcing that they have released their new tomato seeds for 2020

https://www.johnnyseeds.com/vegetables/tomatoes/?prefn1=prod_feature_marketing&prefv1=2&trk_msg=PKS1OUT74LUKT37OM49V2QN3LO&trk_contact=CP1TK27Q3O6CTC7C7T8BTLN3T4&trk_sid=OU4PGF10I7ENTNSVBNM6UAH65C&utm_source=Listrak&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Shop+Johnny%26%2339%3bs+New+Tomato+Varieties+for+2020&utm_campaign=new-tomatoes-11-2019-hg-090

any thoughts?

Jamie - Citrine looks like a good Sun Gold alternative. Also like the look of Bronze Torch.

I am thinking about trying my hand at grafting heirlooms and big beef onto rootstocks this year.... think that the added vigor will be beneficial in the hoophouses. The Shin Choeng Gang looks decent.

The seed catalogs are rolling in here... trying to resist temptations and keep seed splurging to a minimum but that is going to be difficult!

I like those two also, Kevin. Bronze Torch reminds me of Kumato and I wonder if they taste similar. I was also interested in Marvori, until I saw the price haha!

I have only gotten 1 catalog so far, but I expect to see more soon. I need to practice some restraint this year also, haha. I have a pretty good stash of seed on-hand and shouldn't order too many more vegetables. I do plan to order a lot of ornamental seeds this season though!

I will confess, though, that getting seed catalogs still makes me excited hahaha Even when I was a kid, i used to love reading through them. Looking through a web site isn't quite the same.

Kevin

I tried grafting tomatoes which for me was a failure. The rootstocks grow much faster than the tomatoes. I had expected this and had planted the tomatoes (the scions) in three groups with three different planting dates. I used a 36 cell tray and used the long side for the varieties. On the narrow (4) side I had a row of the rootstocks and 3 more rows of the varieties that had been planted at different dates. The rootstocks were planted last. I still had trouble matching stem diameters, the rootstock diameters to the scions.

But the biggest problem was that the grafted seedlings turned black and died. They say to cover the seedlings and keep them out of the sun, for a few days. In a few days the whole mess went into the trash. I still have two different sizes of the clips, which are available on eBay for a few bucks per hundred shipped free from China.

Burpee tried this, I think the year I did, They didn't offer it after that one year.

I have a plan. It does not include buying random seeds. Stick to the plan Len! :)

Rich

You had said you're scheduled for surgery the Wednesday before Thanksgiving. Is that today? If so, our thoughts are with you, and get well soon.

Yes- good luck, Richard!

Hope everything goes well, Richard!

I hope everyone has a happy Thanksgiving. We are in Missouri visiting family for a few days. At home and here it is currently sort of chilly, cloudy, and very windy. It’s supposed to rain tomorrow.

Ive wanted to get my garden dug over, but I fear it may have to wait until spring. It’s just too wet! In my spare time, I’m currently working at laying out some railroad ties to create retaining wall for the bank below the front garden and above the flower garden. I also need to finish the guttering for the chicken coop. And, of course, there’s leaves to take care of. We’ve managed to burn about half of the fallen leaves so far. I hope to get the rest this weekend. Of course, some will go to the garden....I cleaned out the chicken coop for winter a few days ago, and it looks as if I’ll have plenty of garden dressing....In the meantime, I’ve picked up a job doing construction work, which I’m certainly enjoying. Currently helping to build a house south of us...

My shoes are falling apart. It’s a funny story really. We went to Colorado about 5 years ago, and I forgot my shoes! My parents wound up buying me a pair of shoes that has lasted me since. I have worn them daily, even as a workboot! Now they’re falling apart, and I’ve been in need of a good set of work boots. I finally bit the bullet and bought a normally $190 pair of Carolina steel toed, leather logging boots (love that style for work, the high heel and aggressive tread gives me lots of traction on our steep hills, keeps my back straighter, supports my oddly shaped foot, etc.) on sale for $109 at a store locally. I’ve never owned such a nice pair of boots! No more sore feet after working...

Praying for you Richard. I hope everything goes well...

Gobble gobble gobble. I do like turkey....Have a happy Thanksgiving everyone.

Jacob, there are few real pleasures in life that are better than a great pair of boots! Happy Thanksgiving.

Richard we all hope you are well.

Happy Thanksgiving, all!

And to you, Jamie.

Happy Thanksgiving to all of you!!

Happy Thanksgiving! Hope you all have a great day.

Richard - Hope the surgery went well and all is well.

Let the 2020 planning begin. 3 seed catalogs have arrived already :-)

Richard - Have you had a good meal yet? Turkey Day would be a good day. I hope you're feeling better and on the road to a speedy recovery.

Happy Thanksgiving to all!

One seed catalog here, but I know it won't be alone for long.

Jacob - Nice looking boots! My Red Wing boots of about 10 years have cracked soles, I noticed this summer. I put a new pair on my Christmas list. I'll shop for them soon. Need a good pair of boots for the really yucky garden chores like rototilling.

Cold and rainy here all day. I'm not sure how much precip we got, but we really needed it.

I’ve received a Pine Tree Seeds and a High Mowing catalog so far. I’m hoping to order from Seeds of Italy this year. The only cool weather crops I plan to do this year are greens and potatoes (potatoes are really a summer crop around here, growing most of the summer, since I grow for storage...). Sun is just too limited in the early spring and fall. Summer crops do very well on my plot because of this, as my garden ranges from 6 hours to even 12 hours all summer long, but full shade by Oct. 1! The reason is that our property is bordered by a thick southern tree line. The sun remains good until it sinks just low enough, which is when it abruptly leaves!! I plan to grow lots of tomatoes....And I’m aiming for a 5lb per plant harvest goal from my taters this year. I met my 3lb goal this last year....I have a couple hundred pounds of potatoes in our crawl space haha.

Margi, I’m pretty happy with the boots. I broke them in pretty well today, exploring the creek way out behind my aunt’s....My cousins and I traversed the bluffs, creeks, explored under some of the little country bridges, etc. I don’t know if I could wear a cheap pair of boots again....I treated them with beeswax this morning and any rain today mostly beaded up and ran off the boots. Dry feet! Normally my feet would be sopping wet in the rain....I love the high arch and heel of the logging/fireman style boot. It supports my feet so well. I’ve always struggled to find a shoe that fits my feet.

I've been wearing Wolverines for 35 or so years. They're waterproof, insulated, and also have a good tread pattern. The main reason I've stuck with them all these years is that they were impervious to crab apple thorns which I used to have 1000's maybe a million of on my old acreage. My current pair is at least 11 years old. If you're trying to force a spade all the way into hard clay you don't want to be jumping on that spade wearing an old pair of sneakers.

Many of you probably got this e-mail too, but High Mowing Seeds is having a Cyber Monday(Monday only) sale of 10% off orders of $50 or more. I'm assuming free shipping still applies to any orders over $10. Discount code is GIFTOFSEEDS

Chris, thanks for the heads up...Bought 1/2 # of Cascadia snap pea seeds and some French Breakfast Radishes. Could not muster $50 but free shipping makes it fun! Hate to make a $5-10 purchase and pay $8.50 shipping fee.

For those of you who have left over turkey, you could try making Kentucky Hot Brown sandwiches.

Thoughts on these onions? 1000 pelleted seeds for $7 -- anyone who does overwintering?

ridger

Pelleted (F1) Onion Seed

December thread - https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5832452/veggie-tales-december-2019

my how time flies!

Tony- would you repeat your post in the new thread?