Sink and fridge walls

island

built in with W/D cabinet below (behind pivot doors)

A good layout for a small space. Efficient and pretty.

I'm planning to move the microwave to the counter (either next to fridge or on the W/D counter). Then I can replace that shelf with a full upper cabinet. (I'm planning to make the powder room door a pocket door).

My questions:

1) W/D built-in and broom closet: I'm thinking of flipping locations (need to move that wall). This would make the "built in" counter top more in the middle of the room.

2) the island feels like a weird dimension: 8' long by 30" wide (including countertop overhang/lip, so cabinet itself would be 2" narrower. Maybe we can go to 31 or 32 max but it would come at the expense of aisles. The aisle between island and W/D nook is 44" in keeping with the adjacent hallway. The aisle between the island and sink is 42"). How would you optimize island cabinets that are 28" deep? My cab guy can put in deeper pullouts. Would it be better to have is split, say, 18" on the sink side, and 10" on the W/D side, for more accessible storage.

3) any other fine tuning?

I've seen a lot of beautiful and functional kitchen designs. My house is small (plus long and narrow) so we don't have unlimited options.

Thank you so much for your help!

First impressions...

A five foot wide nook is virtually useless unless you're just planning to put a bistro table there.

What are the interior dimensions of your laundry closet?

Is the overall space 19'3" x approximately 10 feet?

Did you ever entertain the idea of swapping the kitchen and the guest room? Perhaps in that location the kitchen could be open to both the dining and the future family room. What you're planning as kitchen could possibly be laundry room and guest room. I'm just guessing, though. Would need to see a whole house as-is layout.

My guess is that you can do better. I have an old, small house too--1947, 1200 sf--and I like their challenges.

Please post a full floorplan.

I too would like to see a full floor plan also just the kitchen area floor plan to scale shoing all elements like doorways and windows .Where is your DR I assume you do not want seating at the island and post all measurements

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I don’t (yet) have a full house plan w/ this kitchen—it’s new that we are bumping out this area where the nook is. Those other sections of the house are set. I’m looking for feedback on this footprint. For context, to the left (front of house) is the original 1940s bungalow; I want to minizies change to it. Here’s that floorplan: Next to the 11x10 guest bedroom is a 7.5 x 10 jack and Jill bath, and then another 11x10 bedroom. Below on this pic, Next to the new hall from the garage is the DR/LR (one space, about 23‘ by 142”, DR closest to kitchen, LR when you open front door). Towards the back, Leading from the office, you see the door to the master suite—a bathroom comes first and then the master bedroom with big windows looking at the back yard. None of these areas will be changed. I’m focused on fixing this area. Is this enough context?

The top drawing is to 1/4“ scale and shows doors and windows. (The window above the sink can be moved slightly, depending on cabinet layout).

Dimensions:

kitchen 19’ 3” x 142”

W/D nook 6’ 2” (removing wainscoting and baseboard) x 38”

That’s a pair of 36” doors; with the bit of wall, it’s about 7’ wide.

Agreed, there’s no room for seating at the island.

Yes, the plan is to put a bistro table in this nook. I found a cute 24x36 walnut table on the West Elm website that will provide more flexibility than a round table. FWIW, the existing nook (where the W/D will go) was effectively 6’ by 50” (a wall cabinet made the nook feel more enclosed). It wasn’t huge but it was functional. We once even had 5 people (!) sitting around that area. (It was cramped but people were happy)

I’m hoping to get feedback on the cabinet layout in this footprint. I think it’s close but am open to refinements.

New Q: I will remove that wall between the W/D nook and broom closet, and will move the brooms to the left so the W/D built-in is more in the center of the room. Should I frame the broom closet as a closet or a cabinet? I have a feeling the cabinet guy will charge more.

THANKS everyone for your help. This kitchen (and the whole back of the house) was added on in the 80s (and stll had honey oak cabs). The kitchen had a single 5’ window over the sink, so I’m hoping to open it up to the outside and make the room feel more consistent with the original part of the 1940 bungalow. FWIW, I’d gone to a lot of open houses and these old 2B/1BA bungalows/cottages have floorplans that are difficult to add onto and maintain any decent sense of flow. I’ve got a long and narrow lot, hence a long and narrow house (and long and narrow kitchen, lol), but I want to enhance what I’ve got.

Thanks for all your help. I really appreciate it.

krdpm thanks for all your feedback and your encouragement. I'm glad to be doing this but some days it doesn't feel fun. Thanks for the reminder, lol!

Great, all your encouraging comments are helpful. For some reason, a broom closet (vs. cabinet) feels right to me. I haven't had any spare brain cycles to properly analyze the pros and cons, but it feels right. It's going to be 38" deep, so I can shove seldom used items (like the air filter) in the back and get them out of the master closet, lol! And then use the front as a normal broom closet.

Interesting ideas on just doing drawers. Yes, I'm doing custom (Needed to, with that W/D nook area). Let me talk to my cabinet guy about that. Also, if I split access to the island, would you do 18" on the sink side and 10" on the W/D side, and do this all around? Since it's custom, I could mix it up. FWIW, I just measured my current 1980 golden oak (yippee) drawers, and they are 18" with 14" extension, so 18" full extension will already be an big improvement.

yeah, the nook. It's going to be a pair of french door, a single pane (no divided light). My architect tossed out the idea of just one door and then a window, to create more of a nook feeling. But as he was talking he listed the pros and cons and kind of talked himself (and me) out of the idea, saying that the right-hand-side door would be stationary most of the time and could be viewed as a tall window. (I have gone to coffee shops where they have a bar-height countertop across a full-height window, so I'm imagining something like that). His point was that sometimes I may want to have both doors open, so keep that option. Hmmmm...on a practical note, it would create a large opening for the cabinet guy to bring in his wares (which is an issue we've discussed.)

Yes a counter-depth fridge. Interesting on the microwave. Maybe I'll keep it next to the fridge but put it on the counter. This week I began the exercise of imagining where everything will actually go, I would like more upper cabinet space that I can easily reach.

But maybe I can still move the toaster over to the W/D built-in to free up some counter top space.

Thanks for your help.

krdpm your comments were good food for thought. Here's a way to make the nook better and more functional.

The nook could have another 5' window (another pair of double-hung windows, 44" tall), to match the one on the sink-wall. I think the nook is much better (6x7 of usable space) but I'm not sure about the overall flow. This is the main back door exit. Also, it's super close to the master suite, so it may feel more like the master is off the kitchen and/or off a main thoroughfare. Also, we lose the benefit of having a set of double-doors somewhere in the house. And being in the kitchen, you might feel a bit more cut off from the backyard, having just a 44" window vs. doors. (and having to go around the corner to actually go outside)

Thoughts? Plans are being re-submitted this week, but I don't want to call my architect with every crazy brain fart. I think I may need to sleep on this. thanks!

It doesn't look as if you've accounted for filler in the corner between the range and fridge. You'll need to make sure the drawers on each side of the L will open past the hardware on the perpendicular cabinets. That issue would be eliminated if you use a corner susan.

You don't have enough prep space between the sink and the stove. Is there a reason you don't want the sink on the island?

I just did a small SF kitchen in a 1100 sq ft space like this..with open end on one end of island for 3 stools, also a small round table at 42” for dining. The microwave is on a pull out shelf on cooking side of the Island. All stock cabinetry btw

Another thought-don't forget to plan for lighting and outlets. Under cabinet lighting is so nice to have and easier to do at this stage. I would plan exactly where coffee maker will be and make sure you have perfectly placed plug so you don't have to see cord.

I know it is incredibly annoying when you request help and ideas for a particular space and people suggest changing things that you made clear are not going to change, and they basically want you to rebuild your house, but there is one thing that keeps jumping out at me.....

That closet in the office is really big. Where you have the laundry now leaves no room to even have a laundry basket, which if that's the only option then of course you make it work. But you could consider taking about half of that closet and creating a mini laundry/utility room accessed through the kitchen. It could also function as broom closet storage and then you could add something like shallow floor to ceiling pantry cabinets along the remaining wall, or configure it so you have a small pantry closet. If you steal that space you end up with lots of possible options.

Thanks everyone for the comments. This is super helpful!

mama goose_gw zn6OH, you may be right about this rendering. This was a drawing made by my designer that we gave to the cabinet guy for the estimate. I'm 100% confident that he is planning for stuff like this. (When I raised a similar issue on the filler on the master vanity, he was all over the issues on the filler, in that case, clearing the wide trim around the door). Good point that I may lose some space in that corner. Hmmm...maybe a lazy susan is the way to go. When I was plotting out my storage this week, I wasn't sure how I'd use all those drawers. When I later called the cabinet guy, I'd asked if I could exchange those drawers for a door to the Le Mans corner pullout. (switch it from the lower cabinet to the left of the fridge). He didn't have my plan in front of him but he thought, off hand, the Le Mans might not be swinging in the right direction if I flipped the corner location (he's looking into my plans). So maybe a lazy susan is better, and I'd gain have a better lower cab to the left of the fridge. Interesting...

Thanks for mentioning the upper diagonal. I just googled some images and I see what you mean. I think you are probably right. I was thinking in terms of square inches of storage but.....I measured my upper corner diagonal: I have 12" of easily accessible storage (on the angle) and then it's the black hole. With the easy access, it looks like I'd have two 12" sections of easy access and ...a smaller black hole, just in the back corner. I think I may do this. Thanks!!!

cpartist yeah, I wish I had more space between the sink and stove. I'm squarely in the clean-island club (no sink or cooktop on the island, I want a long expanse for a work space, doing crafts, use as a serving space with guests etc). Also, when I walk into the kitchen from the LR/DR, I want the island clear (no sink or faucet) so I have an open view of my backyard. So the only option might be to scoot the stove over a little. I don't want the stove too close to that corner. Also, we are trying to balance the upper cabinets so they look pleasing. We *might* be able to shift the stove to the right 6". Would that be better? FWIW, in my current kitchen I have 2' between the sink and the corner leading to the stove (and a 12" return). I have 42" on the other side of the sink, so for bigger jobs, that longer stretch is my workspace and then I have to carry things to the counter by the stove to cook. So I guess I though the 8' long island might be the replacement for that 42" stretch. What do you think???

sharleeg thanks for posting and for sharing the pic. That looks great (and thanks for the encouragement that we can nice small homes that are still beautiful and useful). I had considered doing the open area on the island for barstools but I think I'd rather have storage space. Congrats on doing that with stock cabinets. I had looked into that with a couple of brands and with my W/Ds in the nook and with pivot doors, I concluded that I needed custom.

What do you mean about the micro on a pullout shelf. I googled and couldn't find any examples. Do you mean a shelf below the island, as a landing pad? (like below) FWIW, I once used a micro under an island and it didn't seem as good, but maybe time to reconsider?

When I googled also found this:

Interesting and lots to consider.

Thanks everyone for your help!

krdpm thanks for your additional thoughts. Yes, we plan to do under cabinet lighting and just today I was thinking about outlets. (I'm looking into backsplash options). I've heard you can put outlets under the cabinets. Has anyone done that? One electrician I asked ages ago said you can do it but it's $$$. He didn't think it was worth it.

Yes, the closet in the office is big. It's 6x7. I have noticed that it could work as a laundry room but I personally want to shove a lot of my office junk into the closet so that my office is my library/office space--lots of bookshelves, the corner desk and an upholstered chair and ottoman. So that means all the office junk goes into the closet: the printer, the 4 drawer filing cabinet, all the supplies etc. And since this house is short on closets overall, it could be an overflow storage space. Whew. But that said...how would you envision this? How would I get to it? Whatever little hallway we create would then be lost as storage. Thanks for being sensitive to the how aggravating this can be to hear suggestions beyond the scope of what I was looking for, but when you said it so nicely that like that, it makes is easier to hear. Thanks for all your ideas and for thinking about my little house. ;)

p.s. just looked at the plan again. I didn't update it, but my current thought is to swap the broom closet w/ the W/D, so that built-in is more squarely in the middle of the room. Who knows? Maybe the next owners will knock down the pocket doors, turn the office into a family room and the closet into a laundry room and create a big pantry. (?)

Thanks again everyone. Last night when I couldn't sleep (who's OCD on their remodel?) I dug through old kitchen layouts. A year ago (before the 6-month delay with the planning dept), I'd gotten a plan from (believe it or not) HD; a kitchen designer there is well known and fantastic (she used to work at a KB store, but when it switched to design-build she jumped ship). Anyway, that plan has ALL THE FEATURES you guys have mentioned:

--stove is closer to return, creating a 30" workspace and 12" before the return (and cleared counter next to fridge)

--lower corner: lazy susan

--upper corner: no diagonal but squared off with EZ open

She also did a couple of things:

--microwave drawer in the island (I had ruled it out due to expense but...now I'm wondering, maybe worth it? I'm short, so putting a micro at the bottom of the upper cabinet is not only harder to reach but it takes up valuable cabinet space that I can easily reach). So maybe this is the cost of being short, lol.

--pullout trash in the island (hmmm...is this a good idea? To the right of the sink she has a bank of four 30" wide drawers. Maybe move the trash there?)

--she thought there was room for seating at the island (again, hmmm). It looks like she allowed 36" between the sink and island; then 36" for island (24" cabinet; 12" overhang); then 44" behind the island (this is also the main passage through the kitchen; the 44" matches the hallway into the kitchen). I may be wrong on some of these measurements (drawing is not to scale). Let me see if I can find my notes. I'm thinking 36" is not enough. Especially with a long island, a couple people may squeeze through (don't want to discourage anyone from helping with the dishes, lol)

So it feels like the design of the L is getting pretty close. Any thoughts on the island? (looks like she put the microwave drawer across from the sink and out of the way of the DW and drawers). Thought on the W/D "built in" design?

FWIW, yes, I would love to her work on this plan but I decided to go custom due to that W/D built-in with pivot doors.

THANKS SO MUCH for your help! ;)

Since you're open to the corner susan, check with your cabinet maker--you want a super susan with a contoured cabinet than follows the shape of the turntable, so that items are not lost in the back corner space. And since you are squaring off the upper corner, I'd recommend going back to the MW in the upper beside the fridge. I think you'll appreciate having the landing space on the counter. A drawer base below would also increase your storage space.

Thanks again everyone for your feedback. It gave me a lot to think about this week. Here's a new question:

Since the island is 8' long, what if I have seating at the end by the nook, something like this?

Family kitchen · More Info

The island extension would be 24" so each person had some space. The island is 32" wide

so that leaves enough room for knees. (recommendation for counter top seating is 15" knee space). My thought was to cantilever it, like this:

Contemporary Kitchen · More Info

Since I need to buy a nook table, maybe I can get/make one that is counter height, 32x24 so it could be brought over and set next to this island extension to have space for a crowd. (and to get really crazy, I was thinking, maybe I could have the nook table be adjustable height, so when it's in the nook it's 30" high, but can be adjusted up to 36" and set next to the island).

Thoughts??? Thanks in advance for your help!

mama goose_gw zn6OH I've been thinking the microwave. The kitchen guildelines recommend that the microwave bottom be 3" lower than the primary users shoulder. I'm short, the if I have a normal upper cabinet, it would be about 3-4" higher. A friend has a micro like this and she's a little taller than me and finds it a little high but lives with it. hmmm....Also, it's closer to the stove, which feels like the micro-stove choke point at my parents' house. I'm not thrilled about putting it under the counter, either the drawer (too $$$) or on a shelf (not super convenient). And across the room on the built-in feels too far. Not sure what the best answer is...If you have other thoughts, I'd love to hear them. Thanks!

sharleeg you said your client's micro was on a pull-out shelf on the island. Do you happen to have a picture of that you could share? I searched here and googled and couldn't find any micros sitting on a pull out shelf. Thanks!

Hi again everyone. I‘m trying to finalize this plan. If I allocated 30” between the sink and stove, that means I’ll have 30” for an upper to the right of the sink and 24” for an upper to the left of the sink, which seems like it could look unbalanced. What would you do? Thanks.

Is it likely anyone is going to sit/stand directly center of the sink to notice? As soon as you angle your perspective it doesn't really matter, IMO.

I had 24" b/w my sink and range in my old Kitchen. I absolutely hated it!!! I got so tired of having to shuffle things around or pick up and move things elsewhere to be able to have enough space to work! It was one of the driving forces of our remodel.

Based on your comments, I'm guessing you're a form over function (i.e., looks are more important than function) person, so maybe you're OK with spending all the money for a dysfunctional prep space. If you are, fine, but that would not work for me.

Your island is plenty big enough to accommodate a prep sink and still have lots of clear space for other reasons. An undermount sink isn't visible. Get a low-profile pullout faucet instead of a pull down faucet to minimize the faucet visibility.

Again, if form/looks are more important, then ignore my comments about functionality, I just wanted to point it out just in case. You will now be making an informed decision. You know the pros/cons and potential issues and won't later ask why someone didn't warn you -- b/c we did and you know going in.

Bottom line...we all have different goals for our Kitchens, so work with your goal.

Could you put your range in the corner, if you don't like having a corner cabinet?

Buehl , I’m trying to get to 30” space to work. That’s why I was soliciting ideas for the upper cabinets.

I still prefer to have my sink at the window to look at my garden and to have the long counter on the island for serving, doing crafts, etc.

maria, can you put a stove on the corner? I’ve never seen it? I actually like mama gooses’ ideas for the corner and was planning to do that (Susan on the bottom; square Off the upper and add an easy access door)

thanks everyone for your suggestions. I appreciate it.

My co-worker tells me that the best thing she did for her kitchen was to locate both the sink and the range in corners (no corner cabinets). So, it has been done. I've never actually seen it either.

nhbaskets has had two corner ranges, I believe. Here's one... https://www.houzz.com/discussions/2897958/kitchen-reveal-brought-to-you-by-nhbaskets

They can work, but keep in mind that corner appliances/fixtures take up a lot of room on both sides of the corner. A 30" range, for example, will take somewhere b/w 42" and 48" on each wall. You don't want to cram either one into a small wall space and crowd another appliance.

Most prep work is actually done on the counter, not in front of the sink.

Let me think about this tonight. I probably won't have time tomorrow during the day to work on it b/c of work, but maybe tomorrow evening while kids are trick or treating? (Trick or treating was postponed around here until tomorrow (Friday) in most neighborhoods due to very high winds, severe thunderstorms, and torrential downpours!)

Edited to add (ETA):

In the meantime, can you tell me where you're flexible? Can the Kitchen window move/change? You said some of this is part of an addition -- is the Kitchen in the addition or is it just from the Nook over?

FYI...my prep sink is in a corner and I like it. But, it's a prep sink, not a cleanup sink. I only needed to use a standard 36" corner sink base for my 15" x 15" (interior dimensions) prep sink.

My entire kitchen countertop is under 10 feet (no island), but the 40" between the sink and cooktop is holy.

Thanks everyone for your comment and sorry for the delayed response (busy couple of days). I did a little research on the corner stove. It looks a bit involved, so I'm going to see if I can make this current floor plan work, with some changes. (I did find an good article, which I'll include at this end of this post).

Thanks everyone for encouraging me to have more space between stove and counter. I have some good news--hopefully. We are bumping out the kitchen to enclose a weird jog (and shifting the kitchen over to create the powder room etc). My architect didn't label all the dimensions and suggested I just pull the tape. I think I may have 6" more than I'd planning on. (possibly 8" more, if they use 2x4 walls, but I'm banking on 2x6 exterior walls). If this is true (fingers crossed) it means I could

a) make counter on both sides of the sink 30", so the upper cabs would match OR

b) make the counter between the sink and stove 36 (!) inches. Yay! This feels like a no-brainer. Also, I think the upper cabinets will look fine. I have an older home with wide trim (so I need to allow space for that). So, if my math is right, the upper to the left of the sink would be 18", and the upper to the right of the sink would be 30". (from window to cabinets, I'd have 4" of trim + 2" of breathing room). Next to that upper left cabinet, is the stove's 30" hood, topped with a short 30" cabinet. So there would be some consistency and...the difference between the 18" on the left and 30" on the right is big enough that it will look intentional, not like a near-miss. What do you think???

I also called my cabinet guy. I'm going to meet with him again (this week?) to get his input and design/usability suggestions. This week I only talked to the office guy (Not the head cabinet maker) but he said what you all said, that pull out drawers are more efficient and they cost about the same. So...I am moving in the right direction. Thanks everyone for your help. If you have others thoughts I'd love to hear them.

p.s. Buehl the kitchen is a complete renovation so in theory everything is flexible. The window location is definitely dependent on the cabinet layout and will be finalized last. IMO I think the basic design makes sense: L-shaped with appliances at the end. With the DW at the nook end of the sink-wall counter, we put the sink next to that. I like the window over the sink for when I do dishes. Not sure what else could move but if you have other thoughts, I'd love to hear them. thanks!!!!

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Here's the Houzz article I found that discusses pros/cons of corner stoves:

10 Great Ways to Use Kitchen Corners

https://www.houzz.com/magazine/10-great-ways-to-use-kitchen-corners-stsetivw-vs~5526781

Install a range. This is not a move for everyone, as it can take up extra room. What's great about it is the way it can work within the work triangle, that it enlivens a corner and that it opens up the opportunity to showcase a special high backsplash.

As this look becomes more popular in the U.S., more corner-ready hood vents and ranges are making their way over from other countries, where it's already an established look.

Talk with your kitchen designer, contractor and cabinet designers about placing a corner range. Unless you are incredibly talented with DIY projects, a corner range can bring on some headaches. Some issues you’ll need to consider:

• Venting and how the vent hood will fit into the corner
• Extra fillers next to the cabinets — doors and drawers will need to clear the oven when open.
• Look carefully at handles when you are choosing a range for a corner and realize that the oven’s handle may stick out beyond your cabinet fronts.
• Make sure you have proper clearance for the oven door when it is open — you cannot have it bonking into an island when it’s only partially open. Also, think about trying to hoist a heavy dish out of it and then see if you have enough room to do so in front of the open door, or if you can manage grabbing things from the sides.
• The corner range layout works best with counters on either side.

In this open-space plan, everything is oriented toward the corner — in particular, the view from the bar. Placing the range and vent hood in this corner creates a focal point where the backsplash extends all the way up to the ceiling.

"We are bumping out the kitchen to enclose a weird jog (and shifting the kitchen over to create the powder room etc). My architect didn't label all the dimensions and suggested I just pull the tape. I think I may have 6" more than I'd planning on."

So, what is the actual space you have to work with? Could you please post a floorplan/layout of the space you have to work with and label the various dimensions. If something cannot change, mark and show exactly where it is.

I assume the picture in your starting post is with the bumped out Kitchen. But, if the dimensions are different, it makes a difference in what you can do/fit.

yes the space is defined by the walls in the original post. 142” wide by 19’ 6” long (to a pair of French doors.) Two new windows are on sight but not installed yet; exact location can change. Sink window is 3’x3’ . Nook window is 5’ wide. Windows also have 4” trim on three sides plus Sill is 5”.

The alcove at top of pic is 38” deep by 104” wide. I want a side by side w/d there. (I posted diagrams with my cabinet idea For part of the space). For the remainder, Not sure if I will frame a broom closet or do a cabinet.

thanks for your help.