Hi Zen, I thought I left a huge comment here last night, but apparently I must have forgotten to click submit. It has only been this year and last year that I've had a lot of monarch caterpillars on my milkweeds. Before that, there was a few years with nothing at all. I was trying to raise all the caterpillars in cages last year. It was a lot of work, checking on them, getting fresh leaves, cleaning their messes, and I also got too attached to them. Monarch cats love to roam and leave their milkweeds for no logical reason. No cages this year. I let nature take it's course and I know some cats will become food for other creatures, but it's ok. So the way I'm helping the Monarchs is by just planting more milkweeds. And I was wondering if there was any way I could buy or trade for some of your white flowered milkweed seeds. It's a totally gorgeous plant. It would mirror the colors of the Asclepias variegata blooms. I have a question, What do you call the sharp zinnia seeds that stick to the petals? And are the seedlings from those seeds any different than the seedlings from the other, flatter seeds?

Namaste

Jay

Hello Jay,

" And I was wondering if there was any way I could buy or trade for some of your white flowered milkweed seeds. It's a totally gorgeous plant. "

I would be glad to provide you some milkweed seeds, no charge, except that I don't have any. Those seeds are wind-borne, courtesy of those white silks, and those seeds matured last Summer and we have since had several thunderstorms with high winds, well in excess of 50 mph, with severe damage to our trees. I will "keep my eye out" for any surviving milkweed seeds, but I don't expect to find any remaining dead plants, much less any remaining wind-borne seeds. Next Summer, when the milkweed seed pods open, I will try to save some seeds before our Kansas winds get them.

" What do you call the sharp zinnia seeds that stick to the petals? And are the seedlings from those seeds any different than the seedlings from the other, flatter seeds? "

They are different. I don't have a special name for them, other than "breeder seeds". I have noticed a correlation between zinnia petal seed shape, and size, and zinnia petal shape and size. Long thin seeds tend to produce plants with long thin petals, big seeds big petals, and so on. So I do tend to plant "interesting looking" zinnia seeds.

Namaste.

ZM

Hello four,

" Milkweed plants within a species can vary in toxicity, in some cases becoming too toxic for caterpillars. Variations influenced by soil, season, weather/climate. "

Today I went exploring and I found a few of our apparent surviving Milkweed seeds, and I hope to use them to grow enough Milkweeds indoors under lights to get a good seed supply to plant a Milkweed "patch" next Spring. And enough seeds to share with Jay.

Our wild Milkweeds occur as single plants, mostly few and far between. I can see how a butterfly might not even notice them. My Milkweed patch will be part of my zinnia garden and it will have a decent number of milkweed plants rather close together, which should register as "Milkweed" to a passing female Monarch. I hope to learn enough about Milkweeds and Monarchs to know how to keep my Milkweeds from becoming "too toxic". Right now I need to learn how to grow these Milkweed seeds indoors. I am not even sure they will germinate. I will document my progress.

Namaste.

ZM

True that visibility is necessary. However, even when single plants are impossible to overlook, the butterflies well might bypass them intentionally, because egg sites are regarded as suitable if the butterfly during inventory finds more plants very near. (The pre-laying inventory behavior of some other species is obsessive, carried on at length even around abundance of host plants.)

Don't concern yourself with toxicity. Predation of eggs and caterpillars is an infinitely more pressing matter with which you will contend.

Hello four,

" Don't concern yourself with toxicity. Predation of eggs and caterpillars is an infinitely more pressing matter with which you will contend. "

So what preys on the Monarch eggs? I assume they get laid in bunches rather than as single eggs. What are the precautions usually taken to protect Monarch eggs?

And as I recall, the Monarch caterpillars have characteristic markings that identify them as poisonous. However, our guineas probably aren't smart enough to recognize the caterpillars as poisonous. I will fence the guineas out of the Milkweed garden.

The Milkweed I am using as a seed source had a grouping of three seed pods.

One of the pods still had some seeds in it. It was located in a somewhat sheltered spot.

I have already planted some of those seeds in 3-inch pots, some of which were used as a handy support to take these photos. I had washed the pots and placed them on a shelf to dry. The milkweed seeds are about the same size as some of my breeder zinnia seeds. I hope the seeds germinate.

Namaste.

ZM

Insects and spiders are egg predators.

Monarchs lay eggs singly. Also, non-captives rarely lay more than one on any leaf.

Precautions: potted plants inside fine mesh enclosures; collected eggs inside small containers.

Poisonous should be taken to mean nasty-tasting. The individual predators that bypass poisonous caterpillars are individuals that have tasted; count at least one dead caterpillar per educated individual predator. Some kinds of predatos are undeterred. Lizards, wasps /hornets, ants.

Germination: many species' seeds require a period of cold. Tropical milkweed A. curassavica seeds do not; it is effective to water-soften them. (Not that I am suggesting the species for your location.)

Hello. Zen, it's very nice of you to be saving seeds for me. I was just looking and Kansas has 22 native milkweeds. I'm growing 13 of those, so once they get going you're very welcome to any of those seeds. Thanks for answering my seed questions too. Are those 'breeder's seeds the only kind you use for your research? That's interesting about the correlation between the seeds and the petals. I think the chances are extremely slim that any milkweeds that you grow would be too toxic for monarchs. It would be more likely to happen in an arid environment with a milkweed species that's already high in toxins. I've seen pictures of newly hatched monarch caterpillars that died from those conditions. This year a grew the giant tropical milkweed Calotropis procera. It has very toxic milky sap, and the people in Africa and Asia use it's sap to coat poison arrows, yet monarch cats can eat it safely. Monarchs and milkweeds have been having an arms race for millions of years. The milkweeds kept producing more toxins and the monarchs evolved to handle the poison. Some other butterflies and moths that use milkweeds have evolved differently and they are able to feed on the milkweeds and get rid of the toxins. I have 1 more question about Zinnias. I had some maybe did too well and they got tall, and were flipping over and laying on there sides. I had had pics of when they looked good. So anyway, if you cut back or pinch Zinnias will they stay shorter, and bushier and still look good? There's a warm water method for starting milkweed seeds indoors that everyone swears by. I've been talking to a guy who is very serious about hybridising milkweeds. He has 2 climate controlled greenhouses and he's still collecting seeds for species he wants to use. He wants to hybridize some exceptional species from the west coast and Florida with some northern species with the hope that, the hybrids will get more people interested in growing milkweeds. I've seen pictures of hybrids by a A. incarnata and A. tuberosa crossing. They were beautiful.

https://www.growmilkweedplants.com/blog/watergermination

https://www.growmilkweedplants.com/kansas.html

Namaste

Hi Jay,

" ...Kansas has 22 native milkweeds. I'm growing 13 of those, so once they get going you're very welcome to any of those seeds. "

That 22 number agrees with the book that have on Wildflowers and Weeds of Kansas. I can see how it would be very interesting to breed milkweeds, but I want to concentrate my limited resources on breeding zinnias. I guess, from the standpoint of breeding, you would need to know the chromosome numbers of those species. I am sure that in this time of Internet information, that information is out there somewhere. My book doesn't seem to have chromosome number information.

" This year a grew the giant tropical milkweed Calotropis procera. It has very toxic milky sap, and the people in Africa and Asia use it's sap to coat poison arrows, yet monarch cats can eat it safely. "

That brings up the question of precautions that people growing milkweeds need to take. I guess it obvious that you shouldn't handle the milkweeds and rub your eyes, but I imagine there are a number of safety precautions you should observe. What precautions do you follow?

" I have 1 more question about Zinnias. I had some maybe did too well and they got tall, and were flipping over and laying on there sides. I had had pics of when they looked good. So anyway, if you cut back or pinch Zinnias will they stay shorter, and bushier and still look good? "

Yes, you can and should pinch zinnias to get bushier plants with more blooms. I don't do that because I want to get to first bloom as quickly as I can, because I do a major culling operation at first bloom. I do grow some of my breeder zinnias in zinnia cages, to support them in our Kansas winds.

This is an enjoyable and educational conversation and we do have more matters for further discussion. So, more later.

Namaste.

ZM

Hi ZM. I don't know anything about milkweed chromosome numbers. I should, but I don't. There's a hybrid of Asclepias tuberosa and incarnata called 'Heron King'. I don't take any precautions when handling milkweeds. I just wash my hands afterwards. The milky sap has never bothered me, and I certainly wouldn't rub my eyes if it were on my hands. In Africa they put Calotropis sap on their skin as medicine. I wanted to ask you the name of the fungicide that you use with your Zinnias, that you recommend. I forgot the name, but I'll be sowing a lot of seeds soon. Some of the milkweed species are prone to damping off. Till next time, good luck with your experiments and tutoring, and have a happy thanksgiving.

Jay

ZM, about milkweed sap precaution, specifically skin irritation : For many plants that are common in gardens, we read the notation, "Toxic. Can cause rash or skin irritation". Only occasionally is added the practical "...in sensitive individuals" (meaning persons); and that is the key point. Sensitive persons know that they are skin-sensitive because they are affected by many things, not just plants. Conversely, rarely are the rest of us affected by these plants, and boldly handle them. Milkweeds included.

Hello Jay,

" I wanted to ask you the name of the fungicide that you use with your Zinnias, that you recommend. I forgot the name, but I'll be sowing a lot of seeds soon. "

The product in question is called Physan 20

" These all got too tall and eventually flopped. There was lots of twine trying to hold it all together. "

You have mentioned your zinnias "flopping" before, as a natural consequence of them getting tall as the plants matured. That shouldn't happen. Our Kansas winds frequently hit 50 mph here and occasionally 70 mph (hence my use of zinnia cages), but a mature zinnia plant should be able to stand on its own without "flopping".

It may be that you have a soil nutrient deficiency that contributes to your zinnias "flopping". Rice farmers routinely use commercial fertilizer that contains added silicon, because if rice plants "flop", their seed heads can get wet (rice likes "wet feet" and rice fields are frequently deliberately flooded for that reason). I have added a significant amount of sand to my garden soil, to approximate sandy loam, and sand contains silicon as silicon dioxide. Although sand is not soluble in water, there can be trace amounts of silicon available to the plants, so I don't consider it necessary to add silicon to my outdoor garden soil.

But indoors is a different story -- the ProMix BX that I use has essentially no available Silicon, so I add some silicon to the indoor nutrients in the form of a little soluble silicon. I use a product called Protekt. Its active ingredient is Potassium silicate.

In case I don't get another opportunity, have a happy Thanksgiving.

Namaste.

ZM (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

Hi Zen, I don't think my soil had a deficiency. I think I may have overfertilised them. Also, they were crammed too close together and the wind was partially cut off by the truck always being parked on one side of them. I had more zinnias and cosmos at another garden and they never flopped. I'm pretty sure that I've used that Protekt product before. I will be pinching the zinnias from now on too. The cold weather came on real fast this year. There weren't many nice days for working outside. Your zinnia makes me want a candy cane lol.

Jay

Thanks for telling us about silica.

Potassium silicate powder 1lb for $10 concentratesnw.com/catalog/soil-amendments/ag-sil-16h/ . I calculated that 1lb yields 3L of 7.8% solution (the Protekt concentration).

Hello four,

Thanks much for that AgSil link. The liquid ProTekt still makes sense for me in my limited scope indoor zinnia activities, but AgSil makes it feasible for me to experiment with Silicon nutrition for my outdoor zinnias. I will be purchasing a few of the 4-pound jars at $38.25 each for use outdoors in my zinnia garden. I anticipate that will be more effective than just relying on the sand content of my soil to supply Silicon. I am not expecting any miracles, but it will be an interesting experiment. Thanks again. And happy upcoming Thanksgiving.

ZM

Hello all,

I have several indoor zinnias that are beginning to bloom, as well as young seedlings. These photos were taken today.

Notice the curled upper leaves on the one bloom. That is almost certainly a sign of a nutrient deficiency. In this case it is probably a shortage of Calcium. So I have doubled the amount of Calcium stock solution that goes into my nutrient mix stock gallons. Hopefully some improvement in upper foliage will show in a week or so.

ZM

Has it been your experience that, without targeted intervention, many future leaves of the plant curl too?

The "upper foliage... in a week or so" : refering to current leaves? new leaves? both?

Glad to see you rocking those indoor blooms ZM! I got sidetracked thinking I'd grow z's outdoors, learned it sure ain't gonna happen during our "winter" months. Never been one to throw in the towel, I just this very day finished installing an indoor grow facility. Photos headed your way soon. Stay well. John, low mountains, Veracruz

Hello again,

Some of the small details of plant nutrition interest me. The Miracle-Gro Tomato Food that I feed my outdoor zinnias lists the usual Nitrogen Phosphorous Potassium (the "big three" of plant nutrition) and also lists small percentages of Magnesium 0.5%, Copper 0.05%, Iron 0.1%, Manganese 0.05%, and Zinc 0.05%. I think those are sometimes referred to as "trace" elements. Those are, however, not the only "trace" elements. In fact, the Better-Gro Orchid Plus (and Bloom Booster) list trace elements as Magnesium 1.0%, Boron 0.02%, Copper 0.05%, Iron 0.20%, Manganese 0.05% Molybdenum 0.0005% and Zinc 0.05%. Two of those trace elements (Boron, and Molybdenum) are absent from the Miracle-Gro formula.

However, seventeen (17) elements have been identified as "essential" for plant growth. Three of them, Carbon, Hydrogen, and Oxygen, are supplied from air or water. That leaves fourteen (14) to be supplied by soil or nutrient solutions. An element must satisfy three criteria to be considered "essential". The first criterion is that the element is required for the plant to complete its life cycle. The second criterion is no other element will substitute fully for it. The third criterion is that all plants require it. The 14 essential elements consist of six macronutrients (Nitrogen, Phosphorous, Potassium, Calcium, Magnesium, and Sulfur) and eight micronutrients (Boron, Chlorine, Copper, Iron, Manganese, Molybdenum, Nickel and Zinc). There are several beneficial elements, including Silicon which we discussed above.

It piques my curiosity that the Better-Gro products I use contain six of the eight micronutrients. The Chlorine is a "gimme", in that it is everywhere in at least trace quantities. but the Nickel makes me wonder. I have actually found a few old Nickel coins in the garden, oldish ones that may have had a high actual Nickel content. I also found a few old pennies, and they were actually Copper back in the day. But I don't think it is a good idea to depend on old coins to provide nutrition for my zinnias. And I know for sure that my indoor zinnias aren't receiving the benefit of old coins. So I have made up a trace elements stock solution that contains, among other things, some soluble Nickel.

I do include a "trace" (1/16th cup) of that Traces solution in every Gallon of stock nutrient solution for my indoor zinnias. My Traces solution contains some other "beneficial" ingredients. Maybe that helps my zinnias. Maybe not. Maybe my zinnia seeds and zinnia pollen will have a small amount of Nickel in them. Maybe not. Have a happy Thanksgiving.

Namaste.

ZM

These are interesting observations ZM. I'm especially interested in your conclusions. Not only am I embarking on joining this cult of indoor growers, but also because, as a potter who has always made his own high fire glazes, I have on the property my pottery studio replete with every chemical known to zinnias, if not known to man. It would please me no end to find that zinnias prefer a custom cocktail of ingredients not offered in Home Depot "Bloom-a-rama" products. Riding your coat tails and usual

John, Veracruz

Is your meaning of "edit" the revision of one's own already posted (submitted) comment? If so, then you initiate the revision by means of the link whose text is "Edit", which appears for a time (don't know length) after submission, within the field of the posted comment. It reopens the composition session, with previous content intact. If instead you are referring to the inhospitable program ("editor") used here in the composition /revision of comments, then it is a process of try-redo-curse. And of asking other commenters for help with specific operations.

Hi John,

" Never figured out how to edit a comment on Houzz. "

Just click on the little Edit icon in the upper right-hand corner of your message. If I wanted to edit my long message above, I would click on the icon in this part of my message shown in this picture of my message beginning. Click on this to make it big enough to see.

There may be an issue with your Browser.

ZM

Which "browser" would Houzz prefer I switch to?

Hello John,,

I really don't know which Browser Houzz would prefer that you switch to at this time. At one time they were touting the Chrome browser, but that was some time ago, and a website should work with any standard browser. I use Firefox, Chrome, and Edge interchangeably, depending on a whim. Probably use Firefox more frequently, and am using it to enter this message response. I should be able to refer you to the Using Houzz forum for the answer to your question, but I think you will find more questions there than answers. Just out of curiosity, which browser are you using?

ZM

Thanks for assistance. On my cell phone: chrome as far as I know is my "browser". But I should clarify, my areas of computer expertise do not include cell phones, or video games.

Hello John,

I do not have a cell phone and am using a desktop computer that my son built for me with a Sony 19-inch flat-screen monitor that gives me a reasonably big TV-like display. My control of the system is through a smart game "mouse" and a full sized keyboard. I am a reasonably fast touch typist (faster than 40 wpm). I have a smallish Wacom graphics tablet that I haven't hooked up currently because it is primarily for drawing and painting software. It is many years old and I probably will replace it with a larger tablet. I will probably get a larger 4K monitor when I do my upgrade.

So our interfaces to this forum are very different. Based on all the messages at the Using Houzz forum, I think that the majority of people using this Houzz website are using cell phones like you are. You have my sympathy.

ZM

"sign of a nutrient deficiency.... I have doubled the amount of Calcium"

Deficienies of some nutrients are caused by excess of others. A biggie : phosphorus excess inhibits nitrogen uptake.

Wouldn't a soil test clarify not only deficiencies but also interdependency issues in the lab's recommendations?

Hello John,

" Wouldn't a soil test clarify not only deficiencies but also interdependency issues in the lab's recommendations? "

I don't have soil tests done. I use foliage feeding techniques on my outdoor zinnias (Miracle-Gro Tomato Food). For indoors I use stock solutions based on Better-Gro Orchid Plus and Better-Gro Orchid Better Bloom urea-free soluble nutrients. I use foliage reading visual techniques to let my zinnia plants themselves serve as indicators of their nutritional status. To that end I own and refer to the books Nutrient Deficiencies in Bedding Plants and Hunger Signs in Crops. I don't know whether I have encountered any interdependency issues.

ZM

Hello four,

" Deficiencies of some nutrients are caused by excess of others. A biggie : phosphorus excess inhibits nitrogen uptake. "

I try to avoid problems caused by excesses by limiting my stock solutions to about one teaspoon per gallon (as opposed to the one tablespoon per gallon that I used in previous years.)

ZM

Hello everyone,

Some of my indoor zinnias are in bloom now. These photos were taken yesterday.

The curled leaves are symptomatic of a nutrient deficiency. I am still studying that. More later.

Namaste.

ZM

A thought : An empirical part of the studying could be to fully control the available nutrients by supplying them hydroponically.

Hello four,

That is an excellent suggestion. Actually, as I said in another forum, I considered it (hydroponics) at one time. Bought a book. Decided it wasn't appropriate for my zinnia hobby. Growing zinnias in water is rather awkward, because just keeping the plants upright can be a problem. The system I wound up with for my indoor zinnia project is essentially hydroponics, in that it is "soil-less" because I use Premier ProMix BX instead of soil. ProMix has only enough nutrients to get seedlings started. I apply liquid nutrients to the ProMix to keep the plants going. Plants need a lot of Calcium, and ironically the Calcium nitrate that I use came from a hydroponics supply place. I need urea-free nutrients, because the ProMix doesn't contain soil microbes to break down urea into a usable nitrate or ammonium ion form, so I use commercial soluble nutrients used by Orchid growers.

So, ironically, it turns out I am effectively growing hydroponically using the Premier ProMix in pots as a supporting medium. I simply pour some hydroponic solution into the PermaNest trays in which my pots reside. Capillary action moves it into the root zone. I need to adjust my hydroponic solution to fix the apparent nutrient deficiency symptoms in my zinnia foliage.

We have some white stuff on the ground now, and a lot of wind. It could be snow, but acts more like sleet. I think the temperature is supposed to get above freezing today. More later. This is a good day for me to stay indoors. I will plant some more breeder zinnia seeds.

Namaste.

ZM

You wrote that you do not analyze the medium, therefore you do not know what amounts of what nutrients may be retained in the medium instead of their being absorbed by plants. (You would have to analyze a liquid medium for same reason.)

Hello four,

" You wrote that you do not analyze the medium, therefore you do not know what amounts of what nutrients may be retained in the medium instead of their being absorbed by plants. "

That's true. I don't analyze the ProMix medium that my zinnia plants are growing in, so I don't know what has been taken up by my zinnias and what remains in the medium. I don't know whether zinnias have the ability to absorb some elements preferentially, or to reject other elements preferentially. My working assumption is that zinnias cannot absorb elements preferentially, and that ions of all sorts, cations and anions, get absorbed without regard to whether the zinnia "needs" that element or not.

If this were a university research project (or projects), I would not rely on "working assumptions" and I would do the available nutrient analyses that you have specified, and including analyses of zinnia plant tissue samples. And I would have graduate students to wash my pots, plant my seeds, make nutrient solutions, re-pot my plants, what have you. But alas, this is just my hobby, and I am having all the "fun". And some of the "advanced" stuff is not getting done, for one reason or another. But thanks for your comment, it does bring up some interesting questions about zinnia growth processes.

Namaste.

ZM

haha!

Hi all. I've got my "grow room" pretty much set up. Packs of zinnia seeds tapping their fingers: sadly, all of the space got commandeered by seedlings needing to get transplanted in the fields in time for Valentine's day harvest. Hmmm, maybe by the time space frees up in the grow room, it will be time to plant zinnias outside again....

John

Veracruz

Hello John,

I guess it is time to be thinking about getting zinnia seedlings going for Valentine's Day harvest. I am presuming that Valentines Day is also February 14th in Mexico. I also presume that Floret Flowers does not attempt to produce zinnias for the Valentines Day market. That is an awesome lighting fixture -- what technology is it? I still use my obsolescent T8 fluorescents, simply because I have them.

I am continuing to plant indoor zinnias, so I have some small seedlings going.

I also have blooms that need pollination.

I enjoy my indoor zinnia hobby. I probably would not enjoy growing zinnias commercially. Your situation in Mexico is kind of unique. I am under the impression that zinnias originated as Mexican wildflowers. So that may work to your benefit. Please do keep us informed.

ZM

Hi ZM... nice looking zinnias you are inventing there...you're quite a bit ahead of me.. I'm still figuring out how to grow them in this goofy climate... just dreaming of hybridizing..

I'm not sure I am much of a "commercial" grower..I've just always loved the sport of sales/marketing..if I grow it or make it, I want to sell it..lol. Plus it seems so special to me to hand someone a bouquet of flowers... 9 to 99 it seems to brighten their day.. The zinnias are a wonderful bouquet mainstay...what's not to like about a zinnia? I guess if I had to gripe, I'd say make em smell nice... but I just dropped in a couple of beds of snapdragons and sweet peas to intermix in bouquets..to cover that front... Ever notice how ANYTIME you hand someone a bouquet, or even just a single flower..the first thing they do is jam it in their nose?

The lights are both "Agrobrites" from Amazon...the little one in back is 1x2', the larger in front is 2x4' (I think it was about $200)

I'm still buried in infrastucture issues..I think I've got about 35 beds that are "grow ready". So now I can split my time between growing and expanding. Life's good

I've heard about zinnias being "born" here.. wbut in my limited experience..I have never seen a zinnia, anywhere, in this country. No florist I know of sell them. No farmers I know grow them. No house "persons" I know grow them...There is something people call a wild zinnia, I'm guessing it's some form of a naturalized tithonia that are small tree-like (15-20 feet tall) that populate the hillsides, along with all the wild pointsetias

Nice hearing from you Senor ZM!

John, low mountains

Veracruz

Hello John,

" The zinnias are a wonderful bouquet mainstay...what's not to like about a zinnia? I guess if I had to gripe, I'd say make em smell nice... "

That is much easier said than done. Apparently butterflies can "smell" the nectar in zinnias, and be attracted by it, but that is enabled by their very sensitive sensory ability. If someday I smell fragrance on a mutant zinnia, I will give it special attention. Since I have never detected even a slight fragrance in a zinnia, and I have been around a lot of zinnias, I conclude that fragrance is another of those traits, like the color blue, that zinnias will not acquire naturally.

A few years ago I did have a zinnia specimen that seemed to have a superabundance of nectar. It seemed to have nectar at the base of every stigma, as well as in the usual pollen florets. Its individual petals were nectar sources. Not surprisingly, small ants discovered it (it was an outdoor zinnia) and that zinnia's blooms were crawling with hundreds of tiny ants. The stems of the zinnia became superhighways of ants going to and from the zinnia blooms. Out of curiosity, I did sniff a bloom to see if it was also fragrant. It wasn't, but several small ants got on my nose in the few seconds they had the opportunity. I was even snorting ants out of my nostrils. I left that zinnia to the ants. I probably should have saved seeds from that plant, but I didn't. The ants even kept the butterflies and bees away from that zinnia's blooms. And it had no flower spiders, as many of my outdoor zinnias do.

I am continuing with my indoor zinnia project. More later. It is cold outdoors here.

Namaste.

ZM

Butterfles have superb eyesight. I think that they find nectar by seeing flowers then tasting them

Hello four,

Yes, butterflies rely on their compound eyes a lot, including to find flowers and mates. Interestingly, they actually taste the nectar with sensors in their feet.

I am continuing my indoor zinnia project. Currently I am planting some old zinnia seeds, with the idea that, if any of them germinate, they will be exhibiting desirable longevity. And my delay in planting them will have been, in effect, a selection process. I can't think of a good excuse for my delay in responding to your message. Have a merry Christmas and a happy New Year.

Namaste.

ZM

Hi gang

I've got a couple zinnia types that are hanging on in my climate. Will save seeds.. majority threw in the towel a couple months ago. Attached first garden bouquet, with yes, zinnias in December.

John

Veracruz

Hello John,

" I've got a couple zinnia types that are hanging on in my climate. Will save seeds.. "

Good idea. Save seeds from anything that appears better in some way. However, those yellow flowers in the bouquet look rather like sunflowers. Or at least, not zinnias. Am I right about that? These are a couple of my current indoor types with "different" flower forms.

Both of those have similar variations of my tubular zinnia petal form. More later. Have a merry Christmas and a happy New Year, in case Christmas comes before my next message.

Namaste.

ZM

I am impressed by the large number of florets.

Those are some mighty fine zinnias Mr ZM. To me they have a flavor of Scabiosa going on... Nice work

Yes sunflowers, and a smattering of experimental greeneries.

Merry Christmas
John
Veracruz

Hello four,

" I am impressed by the large number of florets. "

Me too. Those florets have floret seeds at their base, which is vital for the propagation of tubular petaled zinnias that do not have internal anther bundles (like the florets have). That specimen does not always have as many florets -- this is an earlier photo of the same bloom, with a smaller number of open florets that day.

Breeding internal anther bundles into my tubular petals is a priority of mine. Some of them, the ones I call Razzle Dazzles, already have internal anther bundles.

The Razzle Dazzles always have excellent seed yields, courtesy of their internal anther bundles. Their "petals" are just modified pollen florets. My zinnia breeding hobby continues to present interesting challenges. Merry Christmas.

Namaste.

ZM

Fascinating. Whole flower formed of florets.

"Modified", that is. Do they have nectar?

If the florets have a reasonable amount of nectar, then the volume of nectar in that one flower woud be a butterflies' bonanza.

Hello four,

" "Modified", that is. Do they have nectar? "

Some of them have nectar, the ones I have observed with butterflies, skippers, bees, or day-flying moths feeding on them. I have no way of knowing whether my indoor specimens have nectar or not. I think they probably do have nectar. Just no butterflies to confirm that.

" If the florets have a reasonable amount of nectar, then the volume of nectar in that one flower would be a butterflies' bonanza. "

I have taken a few tubular zinnia petals apart, and the amount of nectar I find in each petal is relatively small. I would not describe it as a drop, but something more like a "micro-drop". Zinnias always attract a bunch of butterflies and such, but I think there are probably other flowers that have more volume of nectar. I am of the opinion that you have to be careful what you wish for. I still remember that freakish zinnia bloom that had so much nectar, and the tiny ants that were attracted to it in such scary numbers.

ZM

Hello everyone,

Since we have more than 100 messages in this message thread, I have started a new thread at It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 54

See you all over there. And, again, Merry Christmas.

ZM