It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 48

6 years ago

Hello everyone,

Welcome to this ongoing message thread. The previous part of this continuing series, It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 47
has exceeded 100 messages, which could make the thread slow to load, so we are continuing the series here for another fresh start.

The same guidelines apply here. Anything remotely related to zinnias
is fine. (Or plant breeding in general, or feral cats or precocious cats
or locusts or pet snails or chupacabras or book comments or whatever.)

My indoor zinnia project continues. This recent picture shows some of my second generation zinnias that are fairly far along.

My second generation has been a succession of planting of green seeds as they become ready. So many of my second generation zinnias are just little seedlings, and I am still in the process of planting more of them. I am planting the second generation exclusively from green seeds to accelerate the process.

During some of our recent mild weather I have done some preparation work in my outside garden area. Hopefully some of my second generation zinnias will contribute some seeds for a third generation, which will be planted outdoors after the danger of frost has passed and the soil has warmed up a bit.

I realize this is not a gardening season for many of you, but I look forward to your new or continued participation here in this message thread.

Featured Answer

zen_man
Original Author

5 years ago

last modified: 5 years ago

Hello Ninecrow,

" Now THAT is a Sparkler, HOPE You Can Get An Orange Or a White In This Form! "

I hope to get a complete color range in all of my zinnia forms. This is a current Razzle Dazzle.

Its "petals" are actually transformed pollen florets, complete with an internal anther bundle. This is a close-up crop from the same photo, showing the petal forms better.

I am establishing the Razzle Dazzles as a strain, and also crossing them with many other forms to get new flower forms in my zinnias.

Comments (109)

zen_man
Original Author
5 years ago
Hi Alex,

It is very possible that something equivalent could be found in the kitchen. This is a photo of my 2-pronged fork tool.
I have had it so many years that the brand information on the handle has worn off. I also have a companion 4-pronged tool that I do not use nearly as much, but I do use it.

We got our rain, maybe a third of an inch, and a very temporary cool-off. We are now back in the 90's again, with higher humidity on top of that. Oh, well.

Namaste.

ZM
samhain10 - 5a
5 years ago
ZM - raining finally, after threatening all day, and high humidity and heat to the point where I felt slightly ill after being out in it for so long. But I've taken my echinacea tonic, and after a lie-down, am having dinner, so I feel better.

I hope this isn't going to be one of those extremely hot summers; not sure if I'm up for it. Still about 3 large flats worth of stuff to plant, if I want to brave the heat. May wait and see if we have a cool down after the rains.

Namaste back at ya,

Alex
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Pls8xx, "One thing that has been on my mind the last few weeks is how important it is to me that a zinnia have a short compact plant form. I grow in a sand/clay mix rather than topsoil. It will hold plants upright fine when dry, but when wet the soil looses its strength and the tall plants become vulnerable to wind knocking them over." You have made a good case that you do need zinnias with a more compact plant habit. Last year, we had a very violent storm with high winds of 50mph and it blew down literally dozens of my zinnias. I had concrete re-bar tomato cages around a few of my more critical "breeders" and they were protected. But many of my big zinnia plants snapped off at the ground and many more lost their basal branches and some lateral branches. Interestingly, some of my big bushy scabiosa flowered zinnias and most of those F1s with a "scabi" parent came through just fine, with amazing resistance to the high winds. As is usual in a high wind storm here, for a period of hours we lost our electrical power, our telephone land line, and our cable connection. I studied the wreckage in my zinnia patch to see "what went wrong" structurally with my zinnias. As is usual for me, there were some surprises. I plan to apply what I learned from my "crash investigation" to make better decisions about plant structure this year. For one thing, I had planted a lot of Burpeeanas, from both Burpee and from Stokes. I had a lot of "out of the seed packet" Burpeeanas and some F1 hybrids from crosses that I made between Burpeeanas. (Incidentally, your picture of the "original" red Burpeeanas shows just how nice that Burpeeana bushy look can be.) To my amazement, some of the most disastrous structural failures were in my Burpeeanas. They have what I refer to as a "candelabra" stem structure, with basal branches coming out from the main stem at a 90 degree angle. Even though the stems look thick and strong, there is a kind of "joint" at the attachment point. Some of the basal branches that were in contact with the soil had actually sprouted roots and were apparently in the process of becoming independent plants. It's almost as if the stem joint was "willing" to detach from the main stem. But even higher up, those branches that cantilevered out from the main stem at a 90-degree angle seemed inherently weak. In almost all cases, the branches broke at their attachment points to the main stem. The plants that seemed resistant to branches breaking off had their branches leaving the main stem at a much more acute angle, like 45 or even 30Â°. So their branches were headed upward at the attachment point. For whatever reason, those branches seemed much better attached, even if the plant habit was more generally upward than outward. Despite the fragility of the Burpeeana plants in high winds, I plan to continue growing them and selecting the best flowers and plants. I will just be looking for stronger attachment points for their branches. If you want to emphasize compactness in your zinnia breeding, you can start with some strains that are already compact and cross some other zinnias with them. I personally have quit crossing the lower growing zinnias because I don't like kneeling and bending over to do my cross pollinating. I've always had a tendency toward lower back pain from my gardening, and a lot of bending over just aggravates it. However, short zinnias are interesting looking and fascinating in crosses, so I am thinking about constructing some really high raised beds that might bring those short zinnias up to a more comfortable working distance. There are some short zinnias that you can cross with tall zinnias that will produce some intermediate compact F1 hybrids, and the F2s from them should sort out into a wide range of plants that you could pick from for further breeding. Three of the shortest are the Thumbelina zinnia, the Zinnita zinnia, and Zinnia Short Stuff. Here is another view of Short Stuff and here is another seed source: Short Stuff at New England seed. Some taller but still very compact zinnias are Zinnia Swizzle cherry and ivory, Zinnia Swizzle scarlet and yellow, Zinnia Dreamland hybrids, Zinnia Magellan mix, and I just found that Zinnia Peter Pan mix is apparently still available. By crossing some of those compact zinnias with other zinnias you should have the basis for creating several new strains of compact zinnias, with various degrees of compactness. MM
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Hi JG, That twin-headed scabious specimen might be worth saving seeds from, just to see what you get. One head seems to have white-on-the-outside florets, while the other one apparently doesn't. For commercial scabiosa flowered cultivars, 5 percent on-type is about what I usually get. Some of the early Candy Mix yielded about 10 percent on type. But I have some Candy Mix seeds that yield considerably less than 5%, maybe in the one-percent range. I won't be planting them again any time soon. I can live with 5-percent, because I normally cull in the 90-percent range anyway. "The flower I have that is furthest along is merely a scabious example, and not fully opened. You might say it has tubes ... of the scabious variety..." You might, indeed. I probably should put more emphasis on adding scabious genes to my gene pool, because getting away from the "fuzzy yellow starfish" look in pollen florets appeals to me. And I really need to try harder to get interactions between scabious and tubular flower forms. This recombinant hints at the advantages of scabious genes. This closeup shows the details of the florets a little better. It is just a crop from the original large image that comes from my camera. Those aren't true scabious florets, but they differ some from the usual "fuzzy yellow starfish", and make it easier for me to like what is actually a single zinnia. I know that my prejudice against single zinnias is unjustified, and someone is going to breed some stunning single zinnias, perhaps starting with the Parks strain of Whirligigs. I can't wait to see more of your extreme rolled zinnias. And other interesting zinnias that appear from your gene pool. A lot of your zinnias have "the right stuff". ZM
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Comments (103)
Hi Jason, Welcome to this message thread. Zinnias are not houseplants, so growing them indoors is considerably more trouble than growing them outdoors. At least, that is the case here in most areas of the "lower 48" United States. Since your Philippine climate is summer and rainy season only, I would consider growing them outside as a less troublesome alternative. Zinnias are tender plants and susceptible to frost. Here in central-east Kansas we had a 23-degree F killing frost a couple of nights ago, so all of my outdoor zinnias are dead. But apparently that would not be a factor for you. There may be environmental factors in the Philippines that I don't know about, such as exotic insect pests or other creatures that have an appetite for zinnias. If there are any people reading this thread who have any experience gardening in the Philippines, we invite you to join in and share your knowledge here. As far as I know, there is no Philippine Gardening forum on GardenWeb, although there is a Tropicals forum, with several related forums. None of which address the problem of growing zinnias in the tropics, unless there is a message thread like that buried somewhere. There might be. Here in Kansas, zinnias are easy to grow outside and hard to grow inside. That said, as an enthusiastic zinnia hobbyist, I do grow zinnias inside, and have done so for several years, to extend my zinnia hobby year-round. I am growing a generation of newly hybridized zinnias from freshly saved seeds inside now. "I am thinking about planting it indoors using full spectrum CFL bulbs..... " I don't use compact fluorescent light bulbs because I don't need the "compact" feature, and I do need an extended light source. I use inexpensive 4-foot fluorescent shoplights, with 6500K T8 32-watt bulbs. Depending on the shelf size, I get three or four shoplights over each shelf. Each shoplight has two T8 bulbs. I overdrive many of my shoplights for nearly double the light output. Overdriven fluorescent bulbs are quite bright, although noticeably warmer to the touch, and probably have a shorter life because of that. But my bulbs are rated at 20,000 hours, so they usually outlast my fluorescent light ballasts even when overdriven. I get several years of use out of both my bulbs and ballasts. "should I germinate it first using paper towel method and then transfer it to the soil?, or should I just plant the seeds directly to the soil?" With paper towel germination, you risk damaging the root or cotyledons while handling the sprouted seedling to transplant it into the growing medium. The seedling can get into a contorted shape in the paper towel that is difficult to get properly situated in a growing medium without damaging the seedling. I plant my zinnia seeds directly in a growing medium, one seed per 3.25-inch square plastic pot, about a quarter-inch deep. I use a sterile growing medium instead of soil because there are several soil-borne diseases and pests and because a growing medium can have superior drainage and oxygen availability for the zinnia roots. Zinnias, like many plants, can "drown". "...and how many hours should I expose the plant to the light? " I usually set my timers to 16 hours of light and 8 hours of darkness. Sometimes 17 and 7. Zinnias are nominally Short Day Length plants, which means that the shorter days (or longer nights) of Fall trigger flowering. But the problem with indoor growing is that even with 17-hour days, zinnias will put out a first bloom in 5 to 6 weeks from when they germinated. I would prefer to get more vegetative growth, and I wish I could find a way to get that without pinching the growing point to cause branching. I am still learning the ins and outs of zinnia culture myself. I am thinking about experimenting with still longer daylight time periods. I can go into more details about growing zinnias indoors, but first I would like to know more about your situation -- in particular whether it might be better to grow your zinnias outdoors. And maybe somebody else can "chime in" with some comments as well. ZM
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Hi Four, This is an older message thread (Part 47, while Part 51 is current) but I will respond anyway. Yes, in your B photo, the pollen florets are maturing and setting seeds and they probably no longer have nectar for butterflies, so you could could remove that bloom if feeding butterflies is your primary motivation. In your C photo it isn't crucial where on the stem you make the cut.. I would cut down lower on the stem because there isn't any significant advantage to leaving a lot of bare stem on your plant. If you want to make further comments, it would be better to add them to Part 51, which has only 21 comments, while this Part 47 now has well over 100 comments. ZM
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zen_man
Original Author
5 years ago

Hi Alex,

Time flies when you are having fun. Our temperatures continue well above average. I am expecting near 100 today. My indoor project is very close to being phased out. I am transplanting indoor zinnias outdoors. These are some indoor zinnias in their outdoor "cages".
I have also planted rows of seedlings outdoors.
I will be weeding an outdoor bed of zinnias today. Hopefully I will get most of that done before the temperature becomes unpleasant. I plan to plant some more beds. Sometime in July is a practical "cutoff" time for planting zinnias in-ground here. More later.

A big fat Namaste to you.

ZM
samhain10 - 5a
5 years ago
ZM -

Time flies when you are having fun.

Oh, so true. After a brief period of halcyon weather (during which the most propitious karma allowed that my closest brother came to visit from Oregon at my home for the first time), the hot weather continued. Well, hot is relative. We are nowhere close to your 100* temps. But the intense sunshine on plants - and me - so soon after mostly cooler and cloudy days in the past weeks, was enough to have me and plants wilting like delicate roses.

I did manage to plant more zinnias, but it will be a smaller area this year than last. Still - hard to do without my zinnias, so there ya go. I had some nice forms going last year, and I've tried to pick only the most "progressive of the forms". Which for me, simply means those which are the biggest, coolest colors, and most dynamic forms. I don't have a breeding program per se, as you do, Zenman, but provided these guys reach bloom stage, I should have some interesting specimens.

Which brings me to a question: how close did you say you were allowing plants to be outside? Since I direct-seeded, I've got multiple seedlings in most rows. My beds are only 3 ft wide, and generally I only allow 3 or 4 to a row at that width. Are you letting them be closer? I know you cull after you see things bloom, and that gives you more space - but what if you didn't cull, how close would you allow them to grow in a three foot bed with rows a foot apart? I ask, simply because if I wait till bloom, it will be hard for me to cull - LOL.

Those tubies are getting bigger, if I can judge by the first pic you've posted. Yeehah! And, how - oh how - do you manage to grow things without weeds and grass, as your second pic shows? Is this all about how adept you are with a hoe? Sigh. I aspire to your grasslessness.

Namaste,

Alex
zen_man
Original Author
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
Hi Alex,

" And, how - oh how - do you manage to grow things without weeds and grass, as your second pic shows? "

If you look closely you can still see some dried remnants of chopped down grass. I have a "super hoe" that I can sharpen to razor sharpness and it can chop through a one-inch sapling tree. And shave the ground of grass and weeds. I touch it up before each hoeing session, to maintain that sharp edge.

" ...how close did you say you were allowing plants to be outside? "

My standard beds are two rows, four feet apart. In those rows I will place zinnia seeds as close as 3 or 4 inches apart. That allows for germination significantly less than 100%. My plants probably average about 6 inches apart until the first-bloom first cull, after which they are 2 feet or more apart.

" ...but what if you didn't cull, how close would you allow them to grow in a three foot bed with rows a foot apart? "

I consider rows a foot apart as much too close. But accepting that, I would stagger the plants in the rows, such that each plant is half way between the two plants in the adjacent row. If I were laying out beds 3 feet wide, they would consist of only 2 rows, 3 feet apart. If denser planting were needed, I would go to 3 rows 18 inches apart.

" Those tubies are getting bigger "

Some of them are bigger, and comparable in size to their non-tubie indoor buddies.
This is one of my recombinants that managed to look very much like a seed-packet cactus flowered type.
This is an indoor odd-ball bloom that manages to be a bit different.
It looks like we will finish the week and Father's Day without any rain. Next week hopefully there will be some rain. More later.

Namaste.

ZM
samhain10 - 5a
5 years ago
ZM - little rain last night and maybe today, so maybe it will come your way after.

I consider rows a foot apart as much too close. But accepting that, I
would stagger the plants in the rows, such that each plant is half way
between the two plants in the adjacent row. If I were laying out beds 3
feet wide, they would consist of only 2 rows, 3 feet apart. If denser
planting were needed, I would go to 3 rows 18 inches apart.

Yeah, I was sort of afraid you would say that, but for some reason, I thought I remembered your talking of planting closer. It was probably just the cull thing. You're fully intending to cull a large percentage.

Oh, well. I will continue with my usual. I've generally planted the zinnia rows only about a foot apart. The beds are usually raised, though, which allows for higher density. These latest beds aren't quite as raised, and one of them has serious grass issues, having been at the edge between the two larger areas which had been covered by tarps in the years before for the purpose of smothering all grass. This particular grass is extremely hard to eradicate. It can't be hoed down like a small weed. Really the only way to get it out is to re-dig the entire area, pulling the stolons out by hand. Or smother the area with a tarp. I'll deal with it as best I can this season, and then take drastic measures in the fall. Once the plants get going, I can mulch around them with straw, which will slow the grass somewhat.

But you've decided me that I will try your two-tined fork method to transplant some of these babies into some empty spots around the garden. Hopefully I remember to label them as to which cross they are. :)

Happy Father's Day tomorrow!

Namaste,

Alex
zen_man
Original Author
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
Hi Alex,

" This particular grass is extremely hard to eradicate. It
can't be hoed down like a small weed. Really the only way to get it out
is to re-dig the entire area, pulling the stolons out by hand. Or
smother the area with a tarp. I'll deal with it as best I can this
season, and then take drastic measures in the fall. "

Yes, the grasses with underground stolons are very tedious to eradicate. I got a lot of that when I first tilled my garden, and more when I re-tilled it. Now I dig out the stragglers with a spading fork. I got a few stolons yesterday, when I was planting a row of White Zinderellas.

I will be planting some of the colored Zinderellas today. I ordered 3 packets of White and 1 packet of each other separate color from Swallowtail Seeds. I think that Swallowtail had an exclusive on the new separate colors of Zinderellas. I think that the Zinderellas have the tallest plants of any of the currently available scabious types.

I am very curious to see how many Zinderellas "come true". Someone reported that none of theirs came true -- so that is a little "foreboding". I like Swallowtail Seeds -- they are one of my very favorite seed companies. So if these don't come true, I won't blame them.

Well, I need to clear out an area for a row of assorted Zinderellas, so I need to "get cracking" on that. Today will be another "hot one". More later. Thanks for the Happy Father's Day.

Namaste.

ZM
samhain10 - 5a
5 years ago
Howdy! No zinnias blooming yet, but they are progressing nicely. Hopefully I'll be able to post something in another couple of weeks or so. The weather has been extraordinary, I must say. All looks lush, except for where the tarnish beetles have had their way. Little beggars. I make a point of searching out at least one every time I walk through the garden. They don't move fast enough, fortunately. (evil laughter here - ha ha ha ha!!!!!!!!!)

Just thought I'd say that I used the two-tined fork method for transplanting some of the closely growing zinnia seedlings - works great!!! Also it's a good soil tester for mole trails when you're not sure whether there's a deep trail or not. Stick that baby in the ground and right away you can feel if there's a hollow space down there. Interestingly enough, even though there are still moles going through the garden, they don't seem to be killing things that they undermine. Maybe it's just because the weather hasn't gotten hot enough yet, and those plants undermined are getting enough moisture from the shallow planting. Anyway, I'm collapsing tunnels as I go, and I've upped the bounty on moles with the ferals. "Bring me a mole, and you can have sardines AND Fancy Feast!"

Well, I give them a little Fancy Feast anyway with their other food usually. :) Best fed ferals in the county.

Alex
zen_man
Original Author
5 years ago
Hi Alex,

Glad the two-pronged tool is working out for you. I really like mine. Our weather has been ridiculously hot. Maybe our air conditioner will "catch up" sometime tonight, but right now it is 84 in here and ninety-something outside. Our air conditioner is rather wimpy. Oh well. The air temps have been running over a hundred in this area, and the "feels like" temps are hotter yet, because the humidity is high. As they say, it's not the heat, it's the humidity. Some of my outdoor zinnias are coming into bloom now, like this Razzle Dazzle.
Yes, there is some out-of-focus native grass in that photo. I have been running our lawn sprinkler in my zinnia patch, because we haven't had any recent rains, and the patch definitely needed watering. More later.

Namaste.

ZM
samhain10 - 5a
5 years ago
ZM - you definitely have my sympathies on the heat. We appear to be
heading into hot summer days now, though it will be nothing like your
temps. Had 1/2" rain day before yesterday, which was enough since I've
been doing a lot of standing around hand-watering and admiring how
beautiful things look, and the weather was cool enough to make that
occupation pleasant. Now I will have to get the sprinklers out for the
next round probably.

The zinnias are growing like gangbusters; I
expect to see buds soon on the larger ones. My hybridizing was so
erratic last year that I gathered more self-seed, I think, than crosses.
But I have a fair sampling of both in the two partial beds. I expect
I'll have a few winners - winners by my standards anyway. That is: good
size, good color, good form - I'm not picky; just be beautiful - LOL.

That's
a pretty razzle dazzle! I'm feeling "into orange" this year, which is
good since I think that a fair number of the rows planted will be
primarily orange guys. I had this orange last year that I gave some
preference to when planting this year:

Plus, I have the hybrid
whirligigs that I gleaned from my friend's plant - that seed having
originated with me. She got a bold bi-color, something I didn't see in
my own garden.

OK - apparently back to having trouble loading
pics. Last night when I was updating my HYBRIDIZING ANNUALS thread (the
black pansies bred true next generation, BTW - pics at the Hybridizing forum), I was sailing through
with posting pics. Trying again...
Alex
samhain10 - 5a
5 years ago
Ha! Because I was writing in Notepad, and copied and pasted from there, my post comes out looking like poetry! If I'd realized that, I would have tried for some rhymes at least.
zen_man
Original Author
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
Hi Alex,

That's interesting about the Notepad copy-and-paste. That's a good defense against losing a long message to whatever gremlins tend to steal them.

I am enthusiastic about the Razzle Dazzles because they are "new" and because they give interesting results when crossed with larger "conventional" zinnias, like this current outdoor example.
A close-up view of the center area reveals the almost alien nature of this flower form. It is quite un-zinnia-like.
The heat here remains ridiculous, and is slowing my outdoor work to a crawl. A "cold front" is supposed to bring our temperatures down into the low nineties this coming Sunday. Bring on that arctic air! More later.

Namaste.

ZM
samhain10 - 5a
5 years ago
That's a cool variation of the razzle dazzle form. I like the "medusa effect" of it.

I am more sorry than I can express about your heat problem. I absolutely cannot work outside now when it gets like that, and I don't like to think of anyone else trying to either! We are supposed to have temps in the 90's again tomorrow, but I know from long past experience that 100* temps do, in fact, feel worse. It never gets that hot here, but 90's is already too hot. However, with the 1/2" of rain, and the continuing watering I've been doing, my zinnias appear to have grown another inch today! I'm not going to try to transplant anymore in this heat, and if possible I will give them the extra space they need by culling undesirables. If I like them all, I guess I'm in trouble - LOL.

Namaste

Alex
zen_man
Original Author
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
Hi Alex,

Thanks for your sympathies regarding my heat situation. Kansas is naturally hot this time of year. And maybe we are feeling the effects of climate change.

" ...and if possible I will give them the extra space they need by culling
undesirables. If I like them all, I guess I'm in trouble - LOL. "

Culling can be hard to do. This is another Razzle-Dazzle-based specimen.
Like many of my transplants, it is inside a "zinnia cage". I am going to do some more transplants today before it gets too hot. More later.

Namaste.

ZM
samhain10 - 5a
5 years ago
ZM - oooh, nice! Where's Ninecrow? You've got a good pink going on there; she'll want to see it - hee hee...

Hotter than Beelzebub's hibachi out there today - whew! Truly, I felt I was being baked whenever I stepped out the door. On the plus side, everyone still seems to be loving it and putting on growth extremely rapidly. Don't have a current pic of the zinnia beds, but here's a pic from 6-18-18 of the daylily beds - that's Osiris walking up the path. The zinnia beds are at the end of the tomatoes there to the right and in the next bed over (not visible) following the broccoli and eggplants:

Namaste and sending cool thoughts to all of you, currently experiencing this heat,

Alex
zen_man
Original Author
5 years ago
Hi Alex,

A "cool front" gives us a predicted high of 91 today, which "ain't bad".

That is an impressive number of daylily seedlings. You might get some really good ones. First bloom should be exciting.

This current outdoor specimen hints at the possibility of an "outside color" and an "inside color" for tubies.
However, it is on the borderline of being a cull, so it isn't a breeder. But I will be alert for the possibility of that outside-inside-color thing. Lots more transplanting to do. I will continue to use my two-pronged hand tool a lot for that. Much better than using my forefinger and middle finger. More later.

Namaste.

ZM
samhain10 - 5a
5 years ago
ZM - you're transplanting in this heat????????? You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din. I assume the plants aren't complaining too much? How do you - or do you - shade them?

That is a cool possibility of dual color - looks whirligig-ish. Speaking of which, I'm seeing some buds starting on the whirligigs and some others. Woo hoo! Won't be long now!

Here's a pic from this morning showing one of the little zinnia areas at the end of the pepper bed, and the eggplants and broccoli next door. The other zinnia area is at the end of the tomato bed. Won't be a tremendous number of zinnias, but I hope there'll be something interesting:

Namaste,

Alex
samhain10 - 5a
5 years ago
I know, I know - they're too close together. Maybe I'll try to transplant more of them after this heat passes. Otherwise, I'll have to cull.
brockthegreek
5 years ago
Alex,

I'm a specialist in growing things too close together. Check out these zinnias.

ZM,

I'm the one who posted about the disappointing results with Zinderellas. I got mine from Burpee. Hopefully your Swallowtail Seeds will do better providing they don't have the same source as Burpee.

BTG
rob333 (zone 7b)
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
ZM,

Two questIons? The one on the left, is the browning from large rain fluctuations? A lot of rain, droughty, a lot of rain.... also, I grew these both inside from a packet of seeds (Purple Prince), so do you often see a variation as large as the one on the right? The entire plant's blooms look like this.

Very upward cupping petals?
samhain10 - 5a
5 years ago
Hey Brock! How's the summer going for ya? Yeah, those zinnias are a wee bit closer together than mine - LOL! Though i presume you mean to plant them out soon? Or are you doing a pot garden this year - referring to the containers, of course.

Rob - we'll have to wait for ZM's assessment on the zinnia damage, but I can say that I've grown Purple Prince, and they tend to vary in appearance, as a great many of the commercial zinnias do.

1/2" of rain last night after very intense days of sweltering heat. Much appreciated!

Alex
brockthegreek
5 years ago
Hey Alex,

Weatherwise, my summer is about the same as ZM's. I live in SW Oklahoma. Most of my flowers are grown in containers. Here's some zinnias from a few years ago.

Although I have an acre of land, I don't have the resources to have a garden like you and ZM do. As long as they are watered each day, they do pretty well. I've had a few bloom so far this year but nothing interesting so far. They have all been singles and shades of pink.

BTG
samhain10 - 5a
5 years ago
BTG - I like that zinnia container garden! I'm doing many things in containers, too, on my little "old people's patio". I call it that because I put it in 3 years ago anticipating a day when I would no longer be able to maintain the large corral garden. Of course, then I went cuckoo-crazy over daylilies, so all bets are off - LOL. Anyway, the point is that I've discovered many things can grow just fine in a confined space. Some may not reach their optimum height, but in a small garden, that's not always a bad thing. And massed together as you have done, they create the effect of an in-ground garden. Nicely done!

Alex
zen_man
Original Author
5 years ago
Hi Rob,

I don't think that browning of some petals is due to rain fluctuations. That is an unusual problem. One possibility would be a caterpillar or caterpillars feeding inside the bloom. Pull the bloom apart to see what it looks like in its internal parts.

The upward curling petals are a genetic feature. Some zinnias have that feature. The California Giants are one variety with petals like that, some much more so than others.
I think it would be worthwhile saving seeds from the best cupped-petal specimens and growing their progeny, with the idea of finding improved forms of the feature. I think the cupped petals could produce some nice looking zinnias.

ZM
ninecrow
5 years ago
Hi Guys
Bah Alex Pink Is ICK Unless Paired With Grey, With More Grey Than Pink....
LOL

ZM
Why is That a Not a {8:11 Sunday} Breeder? As You Say it Opens Up Possibility's and
I Like it a Lot.....
samhain10 - 5a
5 years ago
Hey Ninecrow! You'll be happy to know that I may be focusing on orange this year. Unless of course the zinnias have different ideas - LOL. And I have buds - yippee!!! So even though I planted way later than I wanted, all will be well, and I should be able to get all the future crosses to maturity before the snow falls.

Oh, and were you around when I mentioned that I'm hybridizing African violets with my Amish neighbors? It just tickled the heck outta me when I was down there getting fitted for the garden aprons I had them make (great aprons!), and the second youngest daughter brings out two African violets and asks can we cross these? (!!!) And that after I'd posted that video on here about hybridizing them. Well - the follow-up to that story is that we managed to get 4 pods to set! I'm a bit concerned about whether they'll make it to harvest; 3 of the stems seem weak to me. But even if only one matures, that's still a potential 100+ seeds. Regina, the young Amish girl, is excited about it. Me, too!

Alex
rob333 (zone 7b)
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
Thanks for the answer! I was asking in order to know if I should treat the plant, but heck no! I grow zinnias for the butterflies ;) I'd be happy to know that's how it happened.
zen_man
Original Author
5 years ago
Hi NineCrow,

" Why is That a Not a {8:11 Sunday} Breeder? "

I'm not sure I understand your question, but that last picture I showed was of a out-of-a-commercial-packet California Giant that I grew a few years ago. Several commercial varieties already have nicely cupped petals, like this Tequila Lime that I grew a few years ago.
I grew that specimen from seeds right out of a Burpee seed packet, so I can't claim I had any thing to do with breeding it. To do that, I would have had to save a lot of seeds from it and grow those and find some individual that was significantly better in some way, and save seeds from it that showed the same or better improvement.

It is true that many commercial zinnia varieties do not fully live up to their packet or catalog descriptions, and you could become an amateur zinnia breeder by simply finding individuals that fit the packet description and saving seeds from them. One example of this is that some "giant" zinnias varieties describe themselves as "up to 6 inches in diameter". Actually, 6-inch zinnias are very rare right out of the packet, so you would be a successful amateur zinnia breeder by selecting out a 6-inch strain from such a zinnia variety.

ZM
zen_man
Original Author
5 years ago
BTG,

" Although I have an acre of land, I don't have the resources to have a garden like you and ZM do. "

An acre is quite a lot of space, so I am amazed that somehow you are confined to growing zinnias in containers. And your Southwest Oklahoma location would give you a significantly longer zinnia growing season than I have here in Central East Kansas. You could probably "get away with" planting zinnia seeds in-ground throughout the month of July. Is there something wrong with your soil that prohibits you from just planting some zinnia seeds into it?

ZM
ninecrow
5 years ago
Hi ZM, I Meant The Tubey That Has Colour Bother Sides In and Out

VERY Happy To Hear That Alex
LOL
Sort of Re African Violets {Stupid Body} REALLY Hope You Get Some Seeds From Your Crosses....

Well This End re My Point Plan
I Still Have My White and Jingle So I Will Be Starting Light Control Soon {Beginning Of September Maybe} On Them To Get Them To Flower Then Hopefully To Cross....
zen_man
Original Author
5 years ago
Hello everyone,

Well, it continues to be hot here in Kansas. I have transplanted a number of indoor zinnias outdoors, into our South Garden. That South Garden is located in our poultry yard, so I use "zinnia cages" to help protect the zinnias from accidental damage by the chickens and guineas, and from our Kansas winds.
The zinnia cages are similar to tomato cages, but smaller. I make them myself from concrete re-mesh wire. More later.

ZM
samhain10 - 5a
5 years ago
Hey guys - back to being hot and dry here. Though not like you in Kansas, ZM, or my friends out in California, who are roasting in extreme 3 digits.

Ninecrow, good to hear you're working on your poinsettia program. Hope you see some results. Am not so sure about the African violets - a few of the stems on those pods seemed a little flimsy. But I'm still hopeful for something.

ZM - nifty cages! But do those really keep the guineas away from the zinnias? I'd think they could peck right through those holes easily enough. But maybe they're like the cats and aren't intent on damaging the plants, it just happens if they get close enough.

Am seeing color on the buds now - lots of buds! Ninecrow, cover your ears - they're showing pink. Well, more like "watermelon". :)

Namaste,

Alex
zen_man
Original Author
5 years ago
Hi Alex,

" But do those really keep the guineas away from the zinnias? I'd think they could peck right through those holes easily enough. "

The guineas do peck through the cages, but to remove insects from the plants. The primary damage that both guineas and chickens do to garden plants is to "dust" themselves near or on them. They sort of dig a hole to partially submerge themselves in and shake the soil up into their feathers. I think they do that to remove mites. If you had any seeds planted there, too bad.

My South Garden is actually an extension of the poultry yard, so the zinnia cages are how I share that space with them. The cages also support the zinnias in some of our potentially damaging storms, in which we can experience wind speeds in excess of 60 miles per hour. The cages are going to show up in most of the photos I take of zinnias in the South Garden.
That is one of my current "Needle Petaled" specimens. Its petals are thinner than the cage wire, which I think is 9 gauge. I probably should get a wire gauge, to measure the zinnia petals.

I am working toward establishing Needle Petals as another strain, primarily to see what it yields when crossed with other zinnia strains. And I kind of like the "super airy" look of the "needle" petals. More later.

Namaste.

ZM
samhain10 - 5a
5 years ago
ZM - whoa those are some skinny petals! And completely tubular, aren't they, or is that an illusion?

BTW, I need to hire your guineas for tick patrol. Have found 3 spotted ticks crawling on me this summer. Oddly enough, not a one latched on, but I'm being vigilant now. Don't need any spotted fever or whatever - too much to do! Am checking the animals, too - the ones that will let me - and haven't found any, thank goodness.

Meanwhile, my zinnias are getting ready to burst into bloom within days now. The excitement mounts!

Namaste,

Alex
zen_man
Original Author
5 years ago
Hi Alex,

Our guineas do an excellent job of eliminating ticks around the house and grounds. They also eat all insects, including the beneficial ones, like Lady Bugs. Oh well. Fortunately the butterflies seem to be immune to them. However, the ticks are quite numerous about 300 yards out from the house.

This is one of my current outdoor zinnias. I refer to that flowerform as "Cyanus", meaning that it resembles a Bachelor's Button (Centaura cyanus).
Like all of my breeders, it is "caged". I need to make some more cages, because I have some more outdoor zinnias coming into bloom.

We have a couple of hummingbird feeders and several "resident" hummingbirds, and they share zinnia nectar with the butterflies. Hummingbirds are said to eat mosquitoes, and I tend to believe that. We had very few mosquitoes, even when we had had some rains. We seriously need some rain, because I am running our lawn sprinklers daily, just to keep things from dying. More later.

Namaste.

ZM
samhain10 - 5a
5 years ago
ZM - you getting that little bit of rain this AM? It's nice, but not going to be enough for us either. I've been watering almost daily as well.

I like that Cyanus form. Bright red, please, would be nice! The hummingbirds agree - LOL. Yeah, they supposedly do eat small flying insects, but we know for sure that they do dearly love zinnias, along with the butterflies.

Am seeing color on many of my zinnias now; was a bit concerned since mostly I only seemed to be seeing that watermelon center on things, wasn't even sure if I was getting doubles. But now I'm seeing some white centers showing, and definitely doubles rows of petals forming on others, so I should have a mix after all. Yay!

Namaste,

Alex
zen_man
Original Author
5 years ago
Hi Alex,

" Bright red, please, would be nice! "
I took that photo a few minutes ago. Its petals are only slightly different, but one of its parents was a Razzle Dazzle, so its progeny will be of interest. It needs a cage, and I am making more. We actually did get a shower of sorts, but we still need rain. More later.

Namaste.

ZM
samhain10 - 5a
5 years ago
ZM - Oh, hubba hubba! That's a sassy red!!! Build that girl a house to dance in - LOL. Razzle dazzle, indeed.

Just went to my usual weather station Weather Underground to check on the rain situation and saw that though there isn't much prospect for a lot of rain in the near future, there will be a cool-off at the beginning of next week - temps not hitting 80. Hope this affects you as well.

Should have a bloom to show you tomorrow!

Namaste,

Alex
zen_man
Original Author
5 years ago
Hi Alex,

I think I may have shown a previous photo of this exotic before, but this is how it looked yesterday.

It is a tubular, with thin tubes and a unique flare form at the petal ends. I also like its narrow pointed leaves. The cage doesn't show in this picture, but it is in a cage in my South Garden. More later.

Namaste.

ZM
ninecrow
5 years ago
Now THAT is a Sparkler, HOPE You Can Get An Orange Or a White In This Form!
I Would Buy In a Click of Fingers
samhain10 - 5a
5 years ago
ZM - that one is seriously radical! Those petal ends are something different; pretty lavender shade, too.

I'll wait till later to post a pic of the zinnias blooming - they've only started to open, so not much to see yet. And looks like I'll have the gamut of colors - yay! On the negative side, it had NOT gotten any cooler - boo.

Alex
ninecrow
5 years ago
WOW!!!
I LIKE a Lot, I Would Buy That Flower IF I Saw It In a Shop In a Click!!!

Think We Need a New Part as Now Over a 101 Messages.....
LOL
samhain10 - 5a
5 years ago
ZM - I agree with Ninecrow; that's a beautiful Razzle Dazzle!

Meanwhile, my latest batch are more on the conventional side. These are just opening, and will get alot fuller, if I can judge by last year. Have made my first zinnia cross - woohoo! - on the orange by the watermelon red.

Haven't a clue about the parentage of these without walking out to the garden and reading my little markers - which I need to do. Eventually. :)

Namaste,

Alex
zen_man
Original Author
5 years ago
Hi Alex,

Those look great. That cross with the red on the orange seems like a winner. The orange has a "special" look.

Hi everyone,

We are beyond 100 messages now, so I hope to see you all over at It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 49

ZM
ninecrow
5 years ago
ZM
Just a Heads Up, The Link Doesn't Work.....
zen_man
Original Author
5 years ago
Hi Ninecrow,

Yeah, yeah, I know. I created Part 49, but Houzz lost it somehow. I have a Trouble Report in with them, but so far the only response is an automatic "we got your message" response. This was caused by a bug in the Houzz software, and I am not impressed that after 24 hours from reporting the problem, I still have not communicated with a Houzz human being.

It will eventually get resolved, and there will be a Part 49. Oddly, the Link that doesn't work for you does work for me. But that is the only way I can access the new Part 49. I may just be accessing it in a local browser buffer. It doesn't show up in the Annuals message list or the Hybridizing message list (which I tagged for Part 49 because multiple forums for a message string is a feature of the new software).

Unfortunately, using that feature led to the disappearance of the new Part 49. If I had not chosen to use the new feature, Part 49 would already be there for us. We shall see what we shall see.

ZM
samhain10 - 5a
5 years ago
It's working now - will go check it out.
Wouter Addink
3 years ago
Hi, I am looking for someone who bred this, can it be jackier_gardener? Do you know how to contact him or her.
Wouter Addink
3 years ago
I also created a new group for Zinnea's on Facebook, as there seems to be none yet