I agree with a lot said previously.

I'd work it so the kids learn to share bathroom space. Since I see 6-7 bathrooms in this house, I think working on eliminating two or three is important - re my previous post about being laid up with my ankle - the effort can certainly be made on the second floor. No jack and jills… even on the first floor. Someone will lock all sides and not remember to unlock the side they didn't exit from... Even if the guest has to walk a few steps further (or more design needs to get in place), dual-entry bathrooms are a PITA. Yes, I missed the FOURTH bath on the second floor... NO!

Yes, I'd lower the roof pitch, you are in North Texas. Up where I am, that would perhaps be an unreasonable request, but you'll see minimal snowfall where you are.

I'm glad CP went into the shadings of areas in your plan.

Having a (nearly) fully-daylit house is wonderful.

I keep looking at the living room, and I think about my kids when they were, well, kids. It is the first and only thing you see coming in the front door and, in fact, it can be seen from the street with the broad expanse of windows at the foyer. There is no storage.

The kids will not always want to be playing upstairs, they will often want to be in the middle of things (and the parents might want to be able to keep an eye on preschoolers while they play, while going about the business of the house).

So, will some of their toys migrate to the living room, but have no place to be? Will books (yours and their) and tablets (yours and theirs) pile up on the coffee table? Will family games and puzzles take over?

When I was working at home, my kids' favorite place to play was in the wide hall outside my office! It worked great for them, because there was no furniture in the hall so their Thomas trains and Hot Wheels had lots of room for tracks. Your kids may just migrate to the foyer!

cpartist, I had to amend your pathways to account for busy kids using living room furniture as an obstacle course (and I want to point out that the breakfast room chairs will never be so tidily aligned again):

artemis, I think the family room has a 14' ceiling, so it will be closed off from the upstairs. Noise won't travel as much as if it were "open to above".

cpartist, I had to amend your pathways to account for busy kids using living room furniture as an obstacle course (and I want to point out that the breakfast room chairs will never be so tidily aligned again):

True I hadn't accounted for that! LOL.

All—appreciate the comments to date. Definitely have given us a lot to think about.

cpartist—we definitely appreciate the time you’ve given to critiques to the plans. I do wonder if you have suggestions for improvement beyond tossing these out the window? It would seem that to most of the suggestions given, your feeling is effectively that ‘fixing that issue doesn’t matter since there are so many other issues.’

I respect the position if you think the design so fundamentally flawed that It cannot be fixed without a complete restart from scratch. But also helpful would be larger picture suggestions, since I get the feeling you think the issues are bigger picture issues.

Or perhaps your view is that we should just sell the lot since the only way to have a private family room that’s not visible from the street is to have it on a “dark” side of the house? Again, I respect that position. But it’s sort of helpful in a “Nuke it from orbit; it’s the only way to be sure...” kind of way.

And, of course, I understand I’m not paying for any of the suggestions here, so even if your thought is nuke from orbit—thanks for that, too.

LOL bpath that looks like a family circus comic strip, (Billy's path). I like your floor plan but think the foyer is a huge waste of space. It is like a second living room. (maybe that is the intent)I also don't think each child needs their own bathroom on the second floor. But this is your dream house so maybe that was on your list of wants.

K H—thanks.

A note on the separate bathrooms upstairs: that is more for us than the kids. One of the bedrooms is a guest, which we want to have its own bath. My personal view is that if it is feasible, each bedroom should have its own entrance to a bathroom. And I dislike jack and jill arrangements between bedrooms. So that’s how we ended up where we are.

If you like bedrooms with private entrance to a bathroom, perhaps you could still do one bath, but with a single entrance off a space, a small hall, shared by only two or three bedrooms.

So,, the guest will be up with the kids? And their toys and games? Lucky grandma!

I take the point about having a “more private” shared bathroom, but I guess the question I’m struggling with is the “why” of it. Money? Because it causes issues with flow? Regardless of whether kids “need” en suite bathrooms or walk in closets, we are all (probably?) all past subsistence living, so “need” isn’t really relevant.

I guess I’m asking for the argument against bathrooms for each bedroom upstairs other than that they’re unnecessary?

Good point. I suppose one can argue equally for shared or en-suite baths. If you don’t have to clean them or even do a quick swipe daily, then I suppose it doesn’t matter. But with young children, I found it handy to be able to monitor their habits and guide them in personal hygeine and in common courtesy by having a shared bath, and not having to move from one bathroom to another each night and morning. That’s my personal experience, yours may differ.

Totally get the point and appreciate the perspective. Thank you.

Shared baths teach kids how to cooperate so when they go off to college and later marry, they know how to share.

My kids are 21 18 and 16 have shared baths when younger and I fixed that as soon as I could. They share in many ways many times are well adjusted one has completed 3 yrs of college fine sharing bathrooms for 1 year her own for 2 and will share next year. What ever you decide for you will be fine.

Designing a home for you personally then opening it up for wanted critiques can be hard it seems your sorting through well. I liked your plan but the stairs concern me as well. Rotating them may work but As a lay person I unfortunately don’t have opinions I would but stock in for design but I’m sure your architect will.

I don’t think getting rid of the covered porch will solve the darkness problem as there will still be considerable coverage and this is a potentially very nice space. Consider just ensuring you have lighting to compensate and maximize windows.

Good luck!

Larger picture suggestions......Outside of the overly large foyer, the master bath and the bedroom 2 bath location which appears more like an after thought.....(Client to architect: "But where's BR 2's bath?"...Architect: "Huh? Oh geez!"...and five minutes later.... Architect "Taa Daa!! We have a bath!!!")...... I think the house works well. Never have been a fan of these two story family rooms but maybe that more personal taste.

But good luck with your build. Exciting times ahead!

You wondered about the stairs, and I wonder about the living room being shrunk by being the passages to master and kid bedrooms. So, I wonder (I wonder a lot!) if the stairs can be moved toward the back, they would have a window of their own, and the master suite door can be near the foot of the stairs?

Or, flip that, and have the stairs land where the master suite door is now.

Both changes might make it easier to arrange furniture in the LR, because you’ll have a corner.

The more I think about it, the more I like the stairs landing at the back of the house. Makes it easier for kids moving their play among upstairs and outdoors, they land facing the outdoors instead of a bathroom, and the back of the house becomes a kind of loggia for all. It’s more direct for the kids’ and your paths.

My idea to land the stairs at the back is something like this. The stairs, I know it would affect upstairs because they wouldn't be a switch-back, so perhaps it wouldn't work. This is just an idea.

I moved the fireplace and stairs to the right (you were already planning to redesign the bathroom, so I didn't worry about that). Since the stair configuration changes, I didn't do anything with that space or the space under the stairs. (some great storage potential there, though).

To create a little separation from the stairs to the master, I moved the cased opening to the master suite.

You now have some storage, maybe built-ins, next to the fireplace for objets, or books, etc. And the seating area is less of a walkthrough (because to be honest, few people will typically be walking from the study to the breakfast table so you have some versatility in furniture placement. And kid laundry and backpacks don't traverse the living room and kitchen island getting hung on the backs of the barstools, they slip between the island and breakfast nook.

I also turned the guest bath to open off the foyer. It's a little more private, since you're more likely to have guests or kids using it from the living room than from the dining room. You could add a pocket door from bath to study, or if you don't like that, you could do a pocket door at the cased opening to that new "suite", just for when you have guests using the study.

bpath—amazing! Thank you so much for the thoughts, time and attention. I definitely see the improvements in what you posted. This is an example of why this forum is so great.

Now...time for some very much needed improvements to the exterior and gigantic roof to make it less McMansionish...

Loki, thank you for your kind words :) I’m not a pro but I’m all about pathways (as you can tell from my username lol). I also like private spaces tucked back a tad, and little passageways that make you wonder “ooh, what’s through there?” like the library (when it’s tucked back like that, I like that name better than “study”

It‘s a nice house, and I agree it will look elegant with a lower roof.

What about addressing all the other issues with the house?

Also move the bathroom to where your master closet is and the closet to where the master bath is. Put closets on either side of a hallway to the bathroom.

cpartist, as with cleaning, "I don't do bathrooms" :)

Loki, cpartist laid out her bathroom suite in that way, it looks like it works great. Note, it's not that you are walking through the closets to the bathroom, but past them. There's a difference.

LOL BP. Neither do I.

And yes, my bathroom/closet suite works great.

My question about addressing the other issues was to Loki.

I'm no in any way an expert, but it would seem to me that squaring things up would help with the roof. Push out the wall in the laundry room to live up with the garage wall and fix the bathroom from bedroom two so that's it's not a random bump-out but rather incorporated within the main rectangle. As others have said, lower the roof pitch. And to me the open gable over the master and attic area on the back side just looks odd when the rest of the back of the house is hipped roof.

Some roof planes are a bit steeper, some less steep.

PPF—completely agree and like that look MUCH better.

Still not good even with PPF's latest update. The house with the combined gables and hips looks like a McMansion. And the nub on the lower left roof is just bad.

cpartist—thanks for the helpful suggestions for improvement you’ve provided thus far!

I don't know if that comment was truly a thank you or you're being snarky since I know I'm being a bit harsh about the house. But while there are some good points to it, there is enough wrong that can and should be made better when you're spending so much money. And the time to do it is now when it's just on paper. Once you start building and realize it doesn't flow right, it's too late to change or if you do change it, it becomes very expensive.

Nope, it was an “real” thank you. There are points where I don’t agree with you—utilizing design choices to ‘teach’ sharing for children seems silly and a rationalization instead of a reason, or summarily dismissing reasons we may have to pair a dishwasher with each sink instead of flanking a wall sink as ‘not the best design’—but you make plenty of good points.

There are points where I don’t agree with you—utilizing design choices to ‘teach’ sharing for children seems silly and a rationalization instead of a reason,

Fair point and truly each family needs to make their own decision regarding that. Again, that is why you build a custom house.

or summarily dismissing reasons we may have to pair a dishwasher with each sink instead of flanking a wall sink as ‘not the best design’—but you make plenty of good points.

My comment wasn't meant against the dishwashers. I see where what I said might be thought to be that. No my comment was regarding bringing food back and forth across the aisles from the cooktop to the sinks. Ideally if you could make an L shaped layout, then you'd have less back and forth.

cpartist—thanks much. I misunderstood what you were talking about. Apologies.

Many thanks for your help and contributions. Any other thoughts and guidance for additional improvement are welcome.

Here is the kitchen as an L. There are some other changes, like the butler pantry and pantry swapped places. The butler pantry can maybe serve as a bar as well? (oh, and that moved the closet to the other side of the foyer. It maintains the symmetry and creates a little separation of foyer and living space, while maintaining a graciously-sized foyer. And, some wall space for artwork, a console table, etc.)

And, you said you'd move the laundry out to the build line, so I thought I'd see what that looks like.

But I thought the passage from garage into the house was too zigzag, so I moved the powder room to the other side of the garage door. But I still don't like that you have to walk around the kitchen table to come and go. (We have a table that is in front of the doorway from our foyer, where the stairs land, to the garage, and we are always shoving a chair out of the way. It's a real bother.) I suppose you could bump out the breakfast nook more, toward the street side, as you said you were planning, but I wasn't sure that the view of the dog yard would be so, um, appetizing. Oh, and without the butler pantry jutting out, you might want to make a courtyard with a wall to provide both shade for the dog,and privacy from the street corner for the breakfast nook.

Pay little heed to the master suite on the right; I was just playing with a dressing area entrance to the bathroom.

This is what happens when DH and I finish the 3rd season of Outlander and don't have season 4 yet lol.

I see you have storage closets in the garage. When the cars and bikes are parked in the garage, will you have room to open the closet doors, and will you be able to open the car doors easily? (I'm not good with garage dimensions)

Would you consider a banquette tucked into the corner of the breakfast nook? They are not ideal for dining, but might be fine with kids. A nice curved one could work; someone here had a lovely banquette, I think her kitchen was yellow. (GWers, you remember, it had a cute bird-pattern upholstery I think?)

Looks like BP and I are thinking similar thoughts. Here's mine.

The biggest difference is I moved the staircase so it has a window and then moved the entry to the master bedroom so it helps create a better flow. Instead of walking through the living room to get to your master, you now walk through the lower "pathway" from the house.

Like BP, the office bath is only for that room now. You have a perfectly reachable powder room near the laundry.

I still don't like the laundry so far from all the bedrooms though. However, like BP I extended the space to get rid of a jog. Additionally now the entry from garage is not a funny jog but instead is a straight line into the dining area and then to the rest of the house.

I turned the dining table so there's more room to walk around.

I made the right side of the house a bit longer. Probably less than a foot.

I put the bathroom on the corner so now the room gets light from two sides. And now the bathroom has a linen closet, or you can make the door to the linen closet in the hall.

This also gives you the ability to make a closet under the stairs.

Yes the office is a bit smaller but still a very good size.

Question. Do you need 3 eating areas or would one larger eating area plus the island work? If so, then the butler's pantry and pantry I believe could be incorporated into the space without that strange jog.

The other thing I really don't like is that your house will be dark with the public spaces facing north.

I just saw what BP did for the pantry, butler's pantry and kitchen. Much better!

Thanks, cp, but please don't notice that I don't know where to put the oven now. That's buehl's job over in Kitchens ;)

Um I did notice but figured we could figure it out later.

Of course you did, you're an artist! You notice detail :)

I'm really having trouble with the breakfast nook in the walkway. You were able to have a walkway between your table and island that flows, is there a good way to do that here?

cp and bpath—thanks so much. I definitely see your points. Now I’m wondering about stretching the whole house to the left to be in line with the butler’s pantry as currently constructed, then moving the garage storage to the other side.

I like what you did with the master suite, cp, though the asymmetry introduced into the left and right sides as a result of the smaller study may be getting close to the uncanny valley. I definitely see where you’re going, though.

I need to think on the kitchen. The layout bp suggested is almost exactly what we have in our current home, except we have a U-shaped kitchen. The oven in our current house is where the fridge is in this design, and the fridge in the current house is on a wall where the breakfast nook is in this design. And I still don’t love walking into the breakfast nook. It needs to move. The “dog yard” is just shorthand for a separate area apart from the back yard. It will be kept clean and ununappetizing.

And in re the three eating areas: yes, we use all three regularly. We host extended family (10+ people) dinner once per week (need: large dining room), have nightly dinner with the children every night (need: breakfast nook), and the kids eat at the countertop bar every morning (need: countertop bar). The formal dining is too big and formal (rugs don’t mix well with messy small offspring) for nightly dinner. The countertop bar is where the kids interact with us while they eat and we unload dishes, make lunches, etc.

Could we conform to just two eating areas? Sure. But that feels like the tail wagging the dog.

moving the kitchen to the left, even with the butler pantry, could work but will change the upstairs layout, right? That’s a drastic change so be prepared. But it would allow more of an L (and room for the oven!) and space between the island seating and living room. And the garage entrance could move to the right, more of a straight line along the patio windows.

Maybe instead of 2 eating areas, a dining table could become part of the island. Of course first a question. Any more kids expected or are you stopping at 3?

The other thing that is really bothering me is that you're on a corner lot yet the side yard looks unwelcoming and not at all like it's worth showing. Corner lots are harder to design for because two sides need to be welcoming. I know that because my house is on a corner lot.

Understanding of course our styles are completely different but here's my front entry. (This is also before being landscaped and we're on a 9100 square foot lot so smaller than yours)

I even made it a point to put the same style windows on my garage sides so they don't become blank walls facing out. And while you can't see the door up the steps on the side, it's the same exact door as on the front of the house and even the same red.

I like what you did with the master suite, cp, though the asymmetry introduced into the left and right sides as a result of the smaller study may be getting close to the uncanny valley.

What's an uncanny valley?

My house btw is similar in that it too is a U shaped house.

And to explain better why pathways and an organizing concept matter, here are the pathways I drew for your house originally. Note the wasted space and the pathways. Remember I didn't include bedroom closets but did include the path to the toilets. LOL.

cp—thanks much. Points taken.

Uncanny Valley is a concept from human simulations. Basically says that the closer you make a simulated human look like a real human, the more people will reject the simulation. It can be applied to a variety of different contexts where close-but-not-quite causes a visceral response far more than not-at-all-close.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley

We are done at three offspring.

Thanks for all the input, folks, especially PPF, cp and bpath.

We have lots to consider and will discuss with our designer on Tuesday. Then we can go back to our architect with cumulative thoughts/comments.

Y’all have been a tremendous resource, and I appreciate everyone’s time. I’m going to step away from this thread for a while so that we can regroup, so you probably won’t see further input from me on here until we have a revised plan.

Thanks again!

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with. Best of luck.

Uncanny valley, I never knew the term but I get the concept. Thanks for the education! But, in the proposed bathroom? Is that because the sinks look like eyes and the tub like a mouth? I’m going to be looking for uncanny valleys all day now. (there are buildings and road signs I pass that are certainly candidstes.)

Have a good meeting Tuesday, we do indeed look forward to seeing your progress.

Ah, no—my reference was to the asymmetric sizes of the office and the dining room in cp’s revised plans. She needed to do that to accommodate the enlarged bathroom (assuming I’m reading it right). The reduced size of the office means that front elevations would be close to symmetric on either side of the entry—but not quite.

Thanks again!

The uncanny valley term gets applied for lots of situations where things are close but not quite something (human, symmetrical, etc.) in a way that feels more off than something that’s either a perfect match or a clear mismatch. It’s a super useful concept :-).