Difference in window construction mostly. Your wood windows will typically have a deeper profile to them and many of the newer window will have integrated nailing flanges with jamb extensions to the interior. What type of window were you looking at? Either way, it is easy enough to generate a slightly sunken look to the trim. What kind of exterior are you running on this home?

I'm a hundred percent with you, Ben. Flush windows make the house look like it was built with 2x2 lumber. Very cheap. In my opinion, the window installation in the top photo looks terrible. If you look at old-world European homes, the walls are thick and the windows a considerably inset. I window that is set back from the siding makes the home look much more substantial.

You're not the only one who feels the flat look is just "wrong" in a lot of cases. Especially when the style of the house is kinda-sorta traditional, rather than something more modern.

Upside, there are places that make custom azek or PVC window and door surrounds that LOOK like more substantial trim.

https://olsenmastermark.com/

It’s not where the sash is in the frame but where the nail fin is located on the Frame.

5/4 trim is often not enough to sit proud and may need to be furred out to achieve desired reveal.

OMC Archtrim is in the habit of putting flat trim below nail-fin windows. This can work only if the factory sill has a notch under it large enough for the top edge of the trim (it can be rabbeted) and the factory sill nose has a proper drip profile. Without a proper sill profile, the trim to sill joint must rely on caulking/sealant to stop water from getting behind the trim board and siding. Caulking/sealant is often poorly installed since it can't be easily seen and it will only last 5 to 8 years and most homeowners will not check to see if its still good every year.

Few manufacturers offer a sill that is compatible with flat trim. The only one I can think of is the Andersen 400.

The location of nail fins varies little except for vinyl windows where it can vary as much as 1/4". But I've never seen a window detail that would not accommodate 1" thick trim and a band molding is the traditional method of increasing the depth of trim for very thick siding or just for additional shadow lines.

The position of the sash can vary an inch or more which is very noticeable. The appearance is much like storm windows. Such windows usually only offer between-the-glass mullions which adds to the flat appearance.

Here is a detail of a bow window from my house, built in 1891. Note that the casing trim overlaps the window frame and a band molding was added for a more dramatic appearance. The house is in the middle of being painted.

RES, do you mind terribly walking me through this at the first grade level, so to speak?

To use the Azek historic sill, must you specify in your window order that you want them without the factory sill?

Does the Azek sill accomodate a trim such as OMC as you recommend, or can it be rabbeted to do so?

I'm trying to get a specific look on my window trim. These are the genuine articles I'm trying to get the feel of:

The Azek Historic Sill should be added below the factory sill and extend to the outer edges of the jamb trim. i.e. the bottom of the jamb trim sits on the historic sill.

If you use OMC you should ask them to provide the historic sill in place of the flat bottom trim. If they don't know what you are talking about or they don't make that profile, use another supplier or have a carpenter cut and install the trim.

The examples you posted appear to be of old windows that had sills that extended far enough to allow a flat trim to be installed below them. Modern windows have sills that only extend as far as the side and top of the frame (i.e. 1/2" to 1" too short) apparently for manufacturing and shipping efficiency. The top of the example flat boards were undoubtedly rabbeted. In the old days they rabbeted the top of the jamb trim too. You wouldn't install siding with butted square edges so why would you do it for window trim?

Those windows were built to last far longer than anything built today. But the invention of cellular PVC has increased the life of trim if you can afford it.

Here is the Azek AZM - 6930 Historic sill profile:

I googled the Azek sill detail and found someone had posted one of my old Garden Web drawings on Pinterest. Its of an Andersen 400 double-hung. This is one of the few windows that could also have flat trim under the factory sill if it had a rabbeted top edge, But that would make it more difficult to install if it were factory assembled.

This is what it looks like on a Marvin Ultimate Double-hung window:

"Everything depends on the details." - RES

A fact worth repeating.

You think they will give you useful details? LOL.

Two ways to install windows innie / outie. Innie or outie with 5/4 will give you some good depth.

https://arlingtonpassivehouse.wordpress.com/2011/11/12/are-you-an-innie-or-outie/

I think you guys are outie haters... LOL. And if you do innie with black windows and want to p.o. Res3D don't forget the bastard jamb with black paint.

Despite what I said, I know details are important.... but mostly I’m just seeing if I’m not the only person who feels this way about the flat/flush trim look.

Thanks for the feedback above. I don’t understand any of it, but I’ll learn what I can and use it help me explain what I want. Some nice non-flat trim!!!!!

PS: In that last photo they did fill in the line between the sill after I complained.

Andersen and Marvin have some nice trim that integrates nicely with the window.

Have you chosen a window yet?

What allows a window to be an "outie" is the frame and sash material. In residential construction the only material that allows that is PVC. The only advantage is lower cost and the thickness of the trim should not be affected. Many PVC windows have a channel built into the frame to receive PVC siding. The appearance may be more modern but on a traditional style house it's associated with builder grade tract house development.

Not sure what you mean by outie, my google search did not help.

Interesting, BT. When talking to the Windsor window rep, he actually commented that their windows are designed to sit back further into the opening so that the window is inside the surface of the exterior. He promoted this as better for thermal properties, better for window longevity, and better for historic appearance, in our specific case. (I hadn't had much of a chance to independently verify. And... salesmen)

Thank you, RES. I appreciate that. I'm not sure I understand all the detail, but it gives me a place to start and ask my builder what he is planning.

An “outie” was described in the link from BT although the author appeared to be inexperienced in such derailing issued.
It’s just a window with the sash placed toward the outside so there are no shadow lines. In practical terms it’s an inexpensive vinyl window.

you’re link pretty much states what I said. The nail fin determines where the window sits in the opening. Most wood windows Are this way as well as an expensive vinyl window. They showed 2 common solutions , install without fin or build out the wall.

It has nothing to do with the nail fin. Because PVC construction is thinner than wood/clad wood construction and because PVC windows are primarily designed as replacement windows, they have about an inch less overall depth. That pushes the sash to the outside. This is clearly shown in the details I posted.

You may also want to look up window details for a "Passive House." Typically a passive house has windows set farther back (center of wall or flush with interior) for optimal thermal performance. Granted, you may not want (or be able) to set them as far back into the building envelope as shown in a passive house (double stud wall construction) but at least it will give your architect a better idea of the inset window design you are hoping for.

Couldn't agree more. We ended up going with wood windows (aluminum clad wood) in our new build last year for this EXACT reason. Cost a bunch more but I'd do it again.

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/36906481/flush-flange-pellacom 

This is what I meant by nail fin location. I understand You’re pics and what you mean but the link explaining an outie /innie is showing What I said..

The nail-fin location depends primarily on the cladding thickness and the OP will be using shingles and stucco so it could be 1" to 1 5/16" which is typical. Innie vs outie will be determined by the window construction and sash location. In the fiberglass Impervia details what appears to be a flush fin is a replacement window.

I'm curious what would prevent the head detail from leaking.

I did not misunderstand , it was meant to Clarify what I said. The detail was meant to show nail fin location , the window. Material or type was irrelevant. The way casing is now typically butted up to the frame and Not overlapping the frame like older window is much re noticme and bothersome to me.

Material and type is never irrelevant.

You can still buy wood windows with factory or field installed trim that overlaps the frame. I recommend the Marvin Ultimate series with a composite sill.

The Marvin wood windows don’t look much different than the aluminum clad windows. I only use them to meet historic district requirements.

The illustration were only to illustrace how the placement of the fin would LS effect the setback. I suggested the Marvin and Andersen for the trim as well. If the trim is factory installed it will interfere with you’re nail fin.

I do a fair amount of historic work and the historical groups that control the work like there shadow lines as well, but then we cover them up with storms that sit flush with casing and hide it all.

Mark Bischak, Architect

"Everything depends on the details." - RES

A fact worth repeating.

My version:

"Everything depends on the details, including the budget" JRG

Its about money. Style and architecture adjusts to budgets. If you'll let them, some tract builders paint a false trim on their stucco. Head into a high end custom neighborhood. Windows are substantial, often recessed, with some heft to the trim. I'm thinking about a previous project in a Truckee gated community. The siding was board on board cedar, totaling 3" thickness (mimicked on lesser priced homes with 5/8" T111 plywood) with the window trims using a minimum of 2" thick rough sawn, 3" thick sills and thicker when needed. Real stone, 4-6" thick vs synthetic.

Are you quoting yourself?

The factory trim I mentioned would overlap a wood frame the way it’s been done for centuries and there would not be any nail-fin.

Should the sashes always be flush with the

trim?

These are my installed windows. Wondering if trim should be thicker or is it ok as is.

These are my installed windows. Wondering if trim should be thicker or is it ok as is.

You mean flush with the frame ?

That reveal will vary depending upon thickness of trim . If that is a new construction window the nail fin will determine how far the frame sticks out past sheathing And your casing will determine the reveal. Not always a fan of finned windows because of this. Easy in the caulkin!

Thank you for your response. “Professionals” are doing the caulking and we did have a conversation about that today.

Is the trim being painted? If so it definitely should have been primed/sealed before being installed.

Yes, the trim should have been primed and back primed. A better option would have been cellular PVC trim especially for the sill nosing which should have had a sloping profile.

Exterior caulking should fill a gap between two materials not be smeared on its surface.

To make the trim more prominent it is traditional to add a band molding to the casing perimeter. Mock it up first.