Another magnet vote. I think they're standard equipment for a roofer.

We had a messy tear-off and re-roof about 5 years ago. It was a 5 day job because of some repair work needed and a large roof for a single story structure.

There's a driveway along a good part of the front of the house. Even though they used a chute from the roof to the truck for the debris, there was plenty of stuff that fell astray. Before leaving at the end of each day, one guy would spend 15 minutes or more walking slowly in several passes swinging a large magnet (on a long metal handle and maybe 10 pounds or more in weight) from side to side. I appreciated that because that driveway is the path to the garage. Even on the last day when work was light, a number of nails were picked up.

No apology would be enough for me to accept the destruction of my any of my property unless there were immediate action taken to remedy the situation. That is unacceptable. His apology just sounds like lip service to me.

You could get someone else to clean it up and take it off of his contract if he doesn't act quickly enough. Good luck.

Not much to add. Everyone has given excellent advice about insisting the debris be removed at once and about using the magnet. I would also be livid because I take such care with my plantings around the house. The debris wouldn’t be there in the first place, I don’t care who was doing work, and we too live in a rural area. No excuse for that mess.

i hope your roses survive.

" take it off of his contract "

A written contract between two parties can't be unilaterally changed by one of the parties.

I used to give people the benefit of the doubt; I don't do this nearly as often anymore due to bitter experience.

I know what I'd like to do with that plastic - wrap up the roofer in it and let HIM bake in the sun and be in a rainy mess! A bit of "Old Testament" vengeance is what I would want, but probably not get.

I would make my expectations of the clean-up you expect made VERY clearly and in WRITING and given to him to sign his agreement. If he refuses to do so, start looking now for someone to clean up that unholy mess.

I have extensive perennial flower beds in front of my house - somewhat "delicate" ones - hosta, astilbe and ferns. Also, some flowering shrubs. When I last had my roof replace, I carefully chose to have them do the room in very late Oct when all these plants were already dying back. Then their big cloddy feet would do no permanent harm and the plants were on their way out by that time of year. It was a good call. Even then, they did nothin like what this guy did. Good thing he's retiring - he's lousy at what he does.

It bothers me to see professionals mistreating the property on which they are working, but it happens a lot :(

I recall my mother having a wall installed years ago and the builder backed over a lot of landscaping with his truck in the process.

It's good you brought it to his attention, and the whole ordeal will be over soon. It sounds like you have been through a lot in the past few years and the roof is an end that needs to be completed.

Last year we had a sewer main replacement and had to dig out a bunch of plants, including a small rose that took me YEARS to get looking beautiful (DH and I did the plant removal to be on the safe side). It looked horrible when it went back in, looked horrible all last year, but this year it is starting to make a comeback. It will probably not look like its old self for a few more years, but it will get there. Roses are pretty tough, so hopefully yours will make a comeback too.

Hope the roof is done soon!

So sorry. Not much comfort for you, but I have learned a lot from your thread!

Roofing is hard work, but 'a roofer' is seldom the brightest bulb. A friend once old me about attending a HS reunion where one classmate listed his 'profession' as "Part-Time Roofer". It broke us up!

I agree that if you trim down the roses once they're uncovered and not likely to be damaged again, they will spring back. I'm sorry you've had this trouble, Alisande, and it sounds like you've handled it all admirably and with compassion.

We've had a couple of roof tear-off's/replacements and I have never
seen a mess like they caused on your property, Alisande. Our roofers did
throw roofing material off the roof into the yard in some spots around
the house, but they threw it far enough to avoid all the plants, and
then picked everything up before leaving for the day.

That mess, the related plant damage, and his snappy response are
completely unprofessional. But since he is getting ready to retire from
roofing, he probably does not care about pleasing customers, nor bad
references.

Which brings up something else I'd be concerned about, since he is
going to go out of business, who is going to honor the warranty if there
is a problem with the roof?

kadefol the warranty is normally from the manufacturer for the materials not for the workmanship. Most companies will come back and fix obvious things if there is a problem but that is all. Always read any warranty to see if it covers workmanship not just the product.

^^ That was my point. We have never had a roofer who did not provide some sort of workmanship warranty. If there is a problem with something related to workmanship once the roof is on, is Alisande going to be able to get in touch with the roofer and have him fix whatever is amiss, or is she going to have to hire someone else and spend more money.

The first thing any roofer I have worked with has done when quoting a job is go up on the roof and see what he/crew will be dealing with. I am finding it hard to believe one would be so ill prepared as to not know how many layers of roof are needing to be stripped. Also the not knowing how much with need to be hauled away is more nonsense. An experienced roofer can guesstimate by the square footage. After all he had to know how many bundles or squares of new shakes or shingles to order. Layers are simple multiplication.

This sounds like a handyman who does roofs, not a roofing contractor.

Most tear-offs take a single day. In the event that they take longer the roofers we have hired clean the site daily, not just at the end of the job.

kadefol perhaps the roofers in your area are there year round in this area most are Travelers. Expecting to be able to find a roofer to honor a warranty is next to impossible.

^^Yes, the roofers we've hired were small business owners who live and work in this community, so easy to get in touch with.

Plumber and his helper came awhile ago to fix some shut-off valves in the cellar. He drove his van clear down the first long drive and nearly opposite the cellar door. No one does that cause it's hard to back up and out that long drive. I have my eye on the young volunteer redbud tree growing close to the bottom and edge of the drive.

When he goes to leave I say, "When you back out, watch those little trees there". I wasn't going to say anything but remembered this thread and thought what the heck I'll speak up. LOL (he made it past the trees fine).

Someone once told me that if you're mad at something, chances are you're made at yourself. Many times I've found this to be true. As I said early in this thread, part of the responsibility is mine. I got a few estimates that we all in the same ballpark, and wanted to give the job to the local guy who had always been very nice, and probably needed the money. Plus he was recommended by someone in an in-law's family. You'd think with a significant expense like this (a very Big Deal to me in my situation) I'd have asked more questions, made more things clear, etc. By the way, the other estimates didn't include anything for plywood either. I think they must have all assumed it was on my roof already.

I was out all day today doing a program at the library. There's a few routes I can take to get there, and today's included a hilly, winding narrow dirt road made narrower this spring by deep ditches on either side--gullies created by recent storms. I was about 3/4 into it when I was stopped by a Road Closed sign and a bunch of pylons blocking the road. No one was around. I got out and walked over a rise--didn't see a soul. So there I was. My choices were to attempt to turn around without slipping into a ditch, or attempt to drive a mile or so in reverse to the nearest crossroads. Talk about a rock and a hard place! Even with a backup camera, I didn't want to risk going in reverse on a road like that. So I made what probably ended up to be a 12-point turn . . . a few inches forward, cut the wheel, a few inches backward, cut the wheel, and so on. Thank heavens I wasn't driving my Caprice, which is much longer and has no backup camera. Anyway, this is the sort of place where I live. It has a lot of things about it that I love, and I even appreciate the lack of sophistication much of the time. But not all the time. :-)

Ah yes, they don't build cars like they used to. Remember when backing a car, you could lay your arm on the back of the front bench seat, squirm a bit to twist in the seat, look out the back window and actually see the road! Backing up was much easier back then. These days, sometimes I can make do with the outside side mirrors but then I am viewing only one side of the vehicle.

A few years ago, I found myself in the same pickle you were in. I backed for about 1/8 mile until I found a place that was wide enough to execute a turn-around. I kept remembering the time that I tried to turn around on a narrow dirt road and one of the rear wheels dropped over the edge of the road. I was out in the middle of nowhere and almost did not get out of that predicament without having to go for help.

I'm confused and I don't know if any of you can help me. You say there is no plywood, that there is 3 layers of shingles.

How does that work? What's under the shingles?

Why would anyone doing any roofing lay shingles on top of shingles?

I freely admit I live in a part of the country that was settled much later than the east coast. We don't have any truly "old" buildings here so maybe that's why I'm having a hard time picturing it but...what on Earth is under the shingles?!?? Is there nothing??? Just support beams??? What is it??

Does anyone know enough about construction/roofing to fill me in?

TexasGem, I suspect tar paper was under the shingles, but I don't know that for sure. I do know that I was up in the attic the other day while the guys were working on the roof directly above me, and it was a little alarming because the banging had knocked part of the interior insulation down, and when they removed the existing shingles and whatever else was there, all that was left were single wooden planks with maybe an inch of space between them. I could look through the spaces and see the sky. The house seemed so vulnerable.

But I reminded myself that when we first moved here we could see the outdoors through spaces in the wall planks too. (The house is a hemlock plank construction.) The previous owners didn't seem to mind that they lost heat that way, but insulating the house was the first thing we did.

That seems like an awful amount of weight on those planks! I think two layers is about all they should put on. I remember when I lived in Texas, it was common to roof over but here where we get tons of snow, they usually tear all off and start over. I have seen a couple of houses have shingles put over the old though. I don't know if that's OK with a plank style decking though...anyone? Most all the houses up here where we live (built in 50s) have that plank style decking with little spaces between them. I'd say they are 1X6 if I were to guess...maybe 1X8?

Alisande- that's crazy!! Thanks for answering my question. I can't imagine seeing the sky through my roof, even without shingles. Benefits of new construction I suppose!

A roofer is seldom the brightest bulb? What a horrible thing to say. How do you know this?

I'm glad that you asked about the decking TexasGem, I wondered too! I was wondering what in the world was supporting the weight of all of those shingles! I imagine that the roof pitch is very steep to shed snow. I cringe when my husband agrees to help a roofer friend with a job, very dangerous work. As to the intelligence of roofing contractors, maybe next time the 'intelligent' homeowner should plan the job themselves, then hire the crew and supervise the work. I would bet that would open some eyes about the complexity of any major construction project!

Alisande, best wishes for the plants bouncing back after the debris is removed.

I understand and appreciate your explanation Susan. I try to give people a chance and let them know what my expectations are....and ask "where do we go from here".

My property manager tried to give a young start-up landscaper a chance and he made a mess. She's not going to pay him and never use him again. He caused more damage than he fixed.....so I figure when the weather clears up.....I'll do it myself.....in my spare time. :0)

When a house does not have a sheathed roof but slats instead it was built for either shakes (wood shingles) or slate or something of that nature. When it was roofed with asphalt shingles instead(much cheaper) that roofer took a cheap out, probably as much as anything why you had problems. I had an old house where they had roofed over the original wood shingles and that with three layers over time. A proper asphalt shingle roof has sheathing with a layer of rolled felt (tar paper) of the appropriate weight and THEN the shingles and if you get snow there will be water proofing stick on layers around the perimeter to prevent leaks from ice damming.

When my roof was re-done, they as a matter of course had a dumpster.

They used it. Immediately. Okay, I can't say entirely efficiently because I found a couple dozen old and new roofing nails hither and yon, but they were able to avoid killing the foundation plantings.

I did have an initial issue with them leaning their tarps for things to slide off the roof against some flimsy structure that if any iota went awry, stuff would have come crashing through my living room picture window. Fortunately I was at home when they set up (having flex hours where I worked was wonderful in several regards), and I made them change it immediately before they went to work on removing the two layers of old roof.

Frankly, though - if they (any roofer) came out to provide a price estimate, they can certainly ESTIMATE how much roofing they're going to have to dispose of. I mean... seriously!

I had a similar problem with the concrete subcontractor brought onto the job to replace the cracked front porch. They made a huge mess! Did nothing to protect the landscaping, actually drove their dump truck over my stacked fieldstone planters, dumped a good 1/3 inch of sand and gravel over a swath of my front lawn, and concrete on top of the plantings next to the steps, spilled some kind of fuel in the lawn as well as a pile of cement powder, dumped their excess concrete in my side yard & tried to hide it with dirt, and to finish off when spraying the curing compound they managed to spray it all over the front door as well. Not to mention, the new slab is not as thick or nicely finished as the 76 year old one it replaced -- and they left a significant gap between the slab and the steps.

My contractor made sure they came back and cleaned up -- it took two call backs to get it reasonably so (the workers kept asking me "Is this good enough?") but they didn't touch the lawn, I ended up vacuuming the lawn with my shop vac to get most of the sand and gravel out myself (add another point to my crazy lady tally!). Believe me, I posted a thorough review on Yelp and on their facebook page.

Around here one problem with many contractors is they are using unskilled or minimally skilled labor for jobs with only a single semi-skilled person supervising the work, telling them what to do and how to do it as they go (often the only English speaker on the site.) I've run into this now myself with 3 different trades - roof, concrete and carpet install. I don't blame the workers for taking the work, I blame the contractors for sending partially trained and poorly supervised men to do the job on the cheap.

I don't see how dumping the debris willy-nilly made the job safer for Alisande's roofer. I do see how it saved him time and trouble. I hope that he has been wearing a harness, since he is concerned for his safety!

This last time I had my house painted, the guy pressure washed the whole house to get the flaking paint off. Yeah - when I came home it was like there had been a snowfall in July! I was in shock. He wasn't there, never left a note or called to say he would be back to clean up. I couldn't stand it and got the blo/vac out and "vacuumed" the yards front, back, and sides. That still didn't get it all up and I had to use a rake and a broom around the foundation and to get it off my rose shrubs. This was three years ago I think and I still find paint chips.

I keep checking back to see if the contractor has cleaned up his mess or at least promised to do so. But then I realize that you only posted a few days ago so I guess there hasn't been much progress and now we're at a holiday weekend. I know how you feel about your irises and roses and what makes it even more difficult is that this was unnecessary.

We were in our other home over 35 years and during that time replaced the roof twice. Both times the local contractors protected the foundation plants with large pieces of plywood that they leaned against the house. And they only tossed the shingles in those area that were protected. They had a young fellow whose only job was getting supplies and picking up the shingles and carrying them around to the driveway and dumpster.

It is amazing how many contractors cut corners either to save time and money (theirs - not yours) or due to laziness or because they figure they can just get away with it. But what's really a shame is that you had the best intentions and wanted to give the job to a local guy who had worked for you in the past and now he's acting like a total jerk. I hope he finishes soon and cleans it all up - and uses a magnet so the yard is safe again.

UPDATE: The dumpster delivery guy arrived last week and said, "What a mess!" I was surprised, as I imagine he's seen quite a few messes. The roofer and his family came on Saturday and cleaned it up. I wondered how they could pick up all the small bits of tar paper and cellophane, and the answer was: They couldn't. They borrowed my rake and did the best they could, but so many little bits and pieces were buried in the grass I hadn't dared to mow (worried about nails). So when I did mow yesterday I saw little cellophane strips flying about.

The rose canes look lifeless, but I'm hoping Lars is right about their resiliency. Also, a couple of them weren't covered by the shingles, and they look great. Since this rose propagates by underground runners, perhaps they'll spread their good fortune. Some of the iris are crushed, but I think they, too, may revive. I suppose the weeds will as well. ;-)

The roofers cleaned out my gutters, which was unexpected and most appreciated as they were in wretched condition. The one in front had little apple trees growing out of it! My son had refused to lend me his ladder, as he didn't want me climbing (probably wise), and he's been busy with his own chores. I was planning to talk to him about power-washing the gutters this summer (I learned extension wands are available), but the roofers preempted it. This explains why I did not point out to them that two of their shingle piles crushed the bottom sections of my gutter downspouts.

Wednesday night, after the shingles were all on, and only a few things had to be done to finish up, we had heavy rain. I went up to bed and was beyond dismayed to hear the unmistakable drip, drip, drip of a leak. It took me three trips to the attic to find it. I told the roofer, who said he hated to hear it. Yeah, and I hated to hear the actual leak.

I showed him where it had dripped, and he went up to the roof and applied tar. We're expecting rain today and tonight, and he told me to let him know what happens with the leak. But he added that if the leak is back, "I don't know what else I can do." That was certainly not what I wanted to hear.

The location of the drip is close to the chimney, and that's where he put the tar. But I would assume a roofer knows that a leak doesn't necessarily emanate from the spot where the water emerges. I don't know how a leak can be tracked, or even if one can be tracked, but I do know I paid him a substantial amount of money to get rid of my leaks, not add a new one. I sure hope the leak doesn't return.

Oh honey, sounds like you got rooked.

You said they had been up on the roof to fix incessant leaks in the past- they should have known the condition of the roof. Even if they hadn't been up there in the past, he should have been able to go up there and look to see what's going on before starting the project.

They should have ordered that dumpster before the shingles started getting torn off, and not knowing what size might be needed is a BS excuse. If your yard had only been able to accommodate a small dumpster, they would have had to work with that, there's no reasonable reason for them not to have had something out there before garbage started happening.

They were unprofessional about tossing the shingles down- I wouldn't trust someone that messy and "don't give an eff" about that sort of thing to go up on my roof to make a mess there. It just is sloppy/uncaring worksmanship and may indicate the job on the roof may also have sloppy/uncaring workmanship.

Gives you attitude and don't even clean up right after the job is done.

And now after a whole new roof.... your roof leaks. And he don't know what to do about it? So in the past he was able to find and fix incessant roof leaks, but now he can't track or tell or fix the roof he just got done replacing? Oh hell no.

Hate to say spend more money but- it might be a wise idea to hire a real roofing contractor to go up there and see what this guy did or didn't do.

Is the leak anywhere near the downspout that was crushed? I wonder if it is blocked and so water backed up and intruded. I finally figured out that was why I keep getting a leak in a particular spot -- even though there are gutter covers, I have to keep the gutter covers clean or the leak re-occurs.

IMO putting tar on the suspected area is an amateur's way of dealing with it. If it is from the chimney area then he didn't properly flash and install the shingles, and the area needs to be redone.

Thanks, Beesneeds. (I like your name.) I tried to find what i said about the roofer's past experience with my roof, but my eyes aren't cooperating this morning. I'd had a couple of contacts with him because he worked with a family friend, but I asked him to come to fix leaks only once. There were two leaks, and he was able to fix one of them. No one was able to fix the other one because we couldn't figure out where the water started.

I'm afraid I agree with your last paragraph. Sigh.

Raee, no, the leak is nowhere neither either of the downspouts or gutters. I was thinking the flashing has to be redone too. He said they did it very carefully, but ....? However, it's not a sure thing that the leak is located at the chimney. And it's at the highest point of the roof, so i can't even go out when the rain starts to see if I see a dark path of water under the shingles.

Something that people forget to look at when looking at roofs for leaks are the seals around any of the things that are vented through the roof. When they concentrate looking for holes and cracks in the roofing they may not look 6 or so inches higher. I have been having leaks and that was the cause. One is partially torn away from where it should be the other one has a triangle missing. I decided to redo my roof last month to fix the leaks. While the various people did find a few cracks in the shingles two out of the three found the seals on the vents were what was allowing water to come in.

Edited to add that some plumbers can fix the vent seals if it is the one from the bathrooms. You might want to call another roofer for a new inspection. They might be able to find the problem and it is easily fixable. Sadly you may find that your roofer did not install the roof correctly.

I'm so sorry they were careless. Why do roofers do that? I've lived nextdoor to people who have had their roofs redone and they always throw the nails and shingles in MY yard. They are always careless. Why?

Alisande, it should not be up to you to figure out the source of the leak. And no, the roofer’s application of tar is not a solution. A bandaid at best, not tracking the true source and he is truly blowing you off.

Did he even fix the downspouts he destroyed? Or offer to replace? Those should be replaced by him. So many things are wrong with this roof job.

Your recourse may be the local BBB or local TV station, putting his name out there as a scam or fraud. Friend or not he has taken your money and not guaranteed his work.

I went thru something similar when my Mother's roof was redone. She used someone the locals knew, and he was pretty much a one man guy with maybe one helper.

I visited her (from out of state) shortly after the job was done and found a disaster. The guy had used clear caulk and long strips of flashing along the chimney and the caulk was so thick it raised the shingles as he slid the flashing underneath them. There was no doubt water would be pouring under alI the shingles where he had caulked. I also found rotted wood underneath, something he should have replaced, but the worst was he had not used step-flashing around the chimney.

I contacted him and of course he immediately went on the defensive.....I could tell he didn't like a woman correcting his work......but I was livid and let him know as much. I left him a scathing report on Angies List and contacted BBB. He offered no credit and my Mother didn't want to take him to small claims court. So, we ended up bringing in a qualified, professional roofer after getting 2 other estimates. They all agreed flashing was wrong and there was rot around the chimney and another area where a carport attaches to the roof. We ended up having to pay $500 to have it done right, but for all the work they did I thought it was a good price.

I would start by asking your roofer for a partial refund since you're going to have to pay someone else to find where the leak is occuring. (A new roof shouldn't have any leaks.) Since he ripped off all the layers of old shingles he should have put new flashing around your vents and step-flashed the chimney. He should also pay to replace your crushed gutters. If he doesn't take responsibility, be prepared to take him to small claims.

Just so you know, cleaning the gutters is part of the job and something all roofers do. So please don't give him any credit where it doesn't belong. My worry now would be that your downspouts are clogged with debris and you'll soon have water backing up along the roof edge.

As in my Mother's case, I wouldn't want the guy doing any repairs, even of his own work, so unfortunately you're going to have to bring in a professional. The new roofer should be able to fix the problem without having to remove/replace many shingles and he can look for other future problems.

Suggestions: get at least two other roofers out there to give you estimates and their opinion.

Annztoo, your response, like many of the others, makes perfect sense. My first thought was, I need a job. This is not the first time I've thought of this. Unfortunately, the sensitivity to fluorescent lights and computer monitors (thanks to Lyme disease), along with my age--yikes!--makes it highly unlikely that I'm going to get one. But some regular income sure would be nice right now.

As you guessed, I didn't realize roofers routinely clean gutters. After reading your post I went outside to remove the crushed 3-ft. bottom sections of the two downspouts. (One of them, BTW, had become detached, and the roofers put it back on--without a word about its condition.) I discovered that one of them was indeed clogged--with roof debris. So I also checked the longer (5 feet or so) bottom section of the third downspout. Following an almost horizontal trajectory, it, too, was clogged--completely--with asphalt (?) and small pieces of shingles and tar paper. I am SO glad you brought this to my attention, Thank you very much!

My above comment was not about the flashing around vents. There is a rubberized seal that is inserted much above the flashing here the pipe goes through what looks like a ring. A seal is placed there to prevent water from going in the crack between the pipe and the holder which is connected to the roof. Not all houses may have this type of seal but it is common enough in this area that the two roofers that found that problem mentioned that it happens frequently.

Grrrr! While I was reading annztoo’s comments, I was nodding to every one of her suggestions. I am glad you checked in the blockage. That was a good call, and your roof guy probably just swept any old roof debris right down those gutters and into the downspouts it all went with the first rain.

I sincerely hope you get some help with this. People like this guy who prey on those who are unwitting make me angry. And now you may be facing interior damage due to his incompetence. Your homeowners insurance may cover some of that, but let’s hope it doesn’t come to that. Take photos and video!

I also hope you took pictures of the blocked and damaged, with a shot of the debris in, the downspouts, and continue to do so for anything else wrong that you find. Take a photo of the water leak inside, and if you can get someone up on the roof, of the tar "fix"..

This will help tremendously if you have to file in small claims.

Before the job began, did you mark or show the crew chief areas to avoid? There's room for responsibility to both parties: Yours to have identified areas to protect, and his to ask before starting. Its a gray area, however, and neither one of you were able to read the other's mind.

Before the job began, did you mark or show the crew chief areas to avoid?

Jemdandy, no, I didn't, which I thought would be obvious from my posts in this thread. I would agree with you about asking the roofer to avoid the roses (although at this point I know it would have been useless), but I think some things just fall into the category of common sense. I shouldn't have to tell someone in that business to avoid crushing my downspouts.

Well, the leak came back, and in fact it's worse than I thought. In addition to coming down the south side of the chimney, it's coming down the west side. I did think to take pictures, but it hadn't occurred to me to take pictures of the downspouts and resulting debris. Thanks for that suggestion!

Antique roses are some of the toughest plants out there. There is a group that travels to abandoned cemeteries to find roses that are untended, many for over a hundred years. During an August heat wave (daily temps over 100F), with no rain I gave up on watering for over a month and they were fine, even bloomed well.

Good point Raye. There's hope yet.

Yes, that's encouraging, thanks. Well, they certainly got watered last night! :-)

I don't quite see the gray area here - who could ever predict that a roofer would be so unprofessional? Especially one that was recommended and had been to the house before to repair a leak. As others have pointed out they should have arranged for a dumpster on day one and then used it for the debris. Their behavior was irresponsible and negligent - they destroyed landscaping, clogged and crushed downspouts, failed to clean up properly and then tried to pull a fast one with the latest leak.

I've had 3 different roofers on 2 homes and never had to deal with anything like this. The last company that did my roof was fantastic and I've recommended them to others who have had the same positive experience.

I'm so sorry that this is still continuing and can only imagine how disheartened you must feel. Good suggestion to take photos to document the conditions and I hope you can find another roofer to come out for an opinion.

I agree with Alisande here, you shouldn’t have to tell a tradesman not to crush your downspouts, dump a ton of roofing material on rose bushes or nails and similar rubbish on lawns.

(((hugs))) (((hugs))) I wanted to send hugs to Susan. Houses are such a PIA sometimes! I know I'm tired of working on mine.