dmny- thanks for the white recommendation. Iceberg sounds like a good choice. I'd really like to find something that repeats well. I ordered Sombreuil without researching the thorns and was shocked when I pulled it out of the shipping box! The prickles are huge, so probably not the best choice for next to the front door! Something about those jagged edges doesn't say "Welcome." Anyway, I found a place for Sombreuil in my side yard near the back deck where hopefully I can enjoy the fragrance but my kids won't get hurt on it. meredith_e, nice to hear from someone in my exact zone in addition to the other voices! I love the orangey- apricot tones, too, more than the yellows, in Westerland and Royal Sunset. Nice to hear it keeps those darker tones in the shade! I found a band of Royal Sunset at Burlington Roses if I can be patient enough for it to grow. Since the spot I'm looking to fill is on the front of my house, I'm anxious for it to get big. After doing more research, I came across Renae and Annie Laurie McDowell, which really piqued my interest, too! These roses sound like they might do nicely in this part shade spot and provide plenty of blooms. I was originally going for an apricot color, but I'd be willing to go pinkish. Maybe I should get them all...

If Royal Sunset survives for you in zone 6b, then I'd agree that it's the prettier of those two roses. For me in zone 5, Royal Sunset has failed to overwinter 3 times, but Westerland is fine. Even more hardy is its counterpart Autumn Sunset, but it's more on the yellow side of the color range. In my summer heat, Ginger Syllabub fades to a creamy beige most of the time, but it is reliably hardy in my zone 4 pocket. Polka is another lovely apricot climber, but I find it fades pretty quickly too and the canes are very stiff. Cynthia

There is no doubt I will! I love the color, my favorite. This is an interesting aside......last week I went with a friend to look at some property - some older people had it, were now infirm and having to move out of town to be near their children. The lady was a gardner - on a trellis by the garage, she had a huge old Mutablis - on ONE great big cane. It was leaning to the right, she kept it like a standard, with the top with the leaves and blooming. It was just beautiful, and I plan to buy a Mutablis and train it like this. Mutablis is a huge shrub, but never thought of it as a climber. She said it had died and this one shoot came back up and she trained it. So interesting, and just goes to show what you can do with roses. I have an offshoot of La Marne that is growing long and flopping. When it gets a bit colder and I can transplant, I am going to do the same thing with it. Let one huge cane grow, leave that one long, trim the other branches off, replant it and see what happens. La Marne is a super bloomer - have a potted one that is covered in blooms right now, its always the last to quit blooming in my garden. I am definitely adding the Crown Princess to my spring David Austin order, unless I can find it sooner at Teas, or some other nursery..... Hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving Day! Judith

Oh Beth, you don't want Handel unless you spray for blackspot. I hadn't read until recently that it is susceptible. No wonder mine looks hideous for a few months. The small flower size is excellent in my small garden and from a distance it appears as a nice bright pink, combining well with lavenders, apricots and pastel pink. But the Blackspot! Handel, florib. Cl., before defoliating from blackspot