Sure maybe, but I can barely read the plan you posted so I wouldn't get into any detail on the layout.

Have fun building your home, hope you don't build it and end up with expensive redesigns midway through the construction process.

The plan by A. Gruppo Architects, posted by DE, is a perfect example to demonstrate that she doesn't know what she doesn't know. It is a very competent and creative design by a talented and experienced architect--hardly a DIY house by a consumer.

First of all, in this thread titled "Is a self designed house doomed to be bad?", DE posts a design by an architect which she characterizes as "...it was done by an architectural firm. The house is beautfiul ,and simple..." which is an ironic comment given DE's passion for DIY architecture, to say the least. For her to first (mistakenly) extoll the virtures of this architect design, and then to follow with her subsequent vitrolic characterizations of architects is almost schizophrenic in nature.

Second, the design by A. Gruppo is hardly simple or economical. Click on the "more info" link in her posting and you will find yourself facing an International Style, or Modern Architecture style house, finished on the exterior with galvanized corrugated metal siding to create a "Texas Vernacular" aesthetic (it's located in Dallas after all), complete with exposted wide flange beams, projections, bump-os, roof monnitors and a series of other "Modern" components. The galvanized metal siding contrasts strongly with the brightly painted other exterior components.

This is not your standard Colonial Revival or your "neighborhood tract" house.

Look at the interior photos as well. Nothing you see on the exterior or interior is simple or economical to design, construct, install or finish. This house is the perfect architectural example of "simple is very time consuming and expensive". For example, I'm guessing that a house which is this strong of rectangular forms and finish is unlikely to be framed with standard 2X lumber which, these days, is bent, twisted, cracked and anything but straight and plumb. It's likely this house may have been constructed with all metal studs and framing. This takes it out of the realm of 2X builders and into a much higher quality and caliber (and cost) of builder.

How will such a house weather on the exterior and interior over time? How much upkeep and maintenance will such a house require? Who can say for sure? It all depends on the quality of detailing and the quality of construction and finish.

Cost for this "simple" 2-bedroom 2,500SF house has got to be far north of $1M USD. $400-$500/SF is probably not out of line. That pretty much takes it out of reach of a great many consumers, both in terms of cost, function and aesthetics.

This is one of those houses which one either truly likes so much that one is willing to accept a variety of shortcomings and compromises, including cost. Or one simply shakes one's head and walks away.

This house is anything but simple and economical, which are among DE's criteria for a "good house". And obviously this is not a DIY house; it could only have been created by a talented and experienced architect, which, again, removes it from DE's criteria for a "good house".

Time for you to complain and pull this thread again, DE?

@ D E - I promise you, in all sincerity, from your posts it is easy to tell that your problem isn't that your house will not be designed by an architect, the problem is that it is going to be designed by you.

I completely agree with your assessment that not everyone needs an architect, but that is immaterial to whether or not you need an architect. Once you prove that every project doesn't need an architect, you are absolutely no closer to having a good design, you just have confirmation that someone, somewhere managed it. If I dunk a basketball and learned that DIY, does that mean you can dunk a basketball?

You seem to have established the criteria that proving Virgil Carter et al. wrong, will then also prove that your DIY design is acceptable. I suspect that much of the conflict comes from finding your efforts and work so summarily dismissed as bad.

It is your money. Go out and build any house you want, and I will make you a promise, it isn't going to be any better or worse because you won an argument about DIY design versus and architect design on an internet forum.

And D E- honestly. What, exactly, do you want from this thread?

Did you honestly think the point of that was bragging? I am nearly 50 years old and haven't touched a basketball in a solid 15 years. However, apparently I am compensating for being a bad lecturer as I can't convey the point of a story...

The point of the story was that certain people are predisposed to certain things, whether or not they do them professionally. Finding someone doing one of those things that they are naturally talented at, doesn't make you naturally talented at it.

You are simply chasing an exception fallacy. You want to demonstrate that people who say "get an architect" are wrong, and they are sometimes. However, would posters be better off if the pros said you can do it yourself?

I will argue that it is irresponsible to note the exception over the rule when the stakes are so high.

Who are you trying to convince? Back in the day when I was running around dunking basketballs left and right, we used to say "put up or shut up."

Build your house and impress us, or don't... but for the love of everything decent please stop talking smack...

MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!! JUST go get a house and be happy!! It's a free country. Just go do it. I doubt anyone here cares : )

You don't know what you are talking about, and there is no reason to keep displaying and emphasizing that glaring fact.

I love this below..............what more need be said.......? That says it ALL.

"architects, aka exterior designers"...............

"Exterior designers seem to only know how to create art. They do nothing for, or worse yet harm, the livability of a house.
"architects aka exterior designers are no better than plan Mills or draftsmen at designing a livable house."

If you haven't lived in a architect-designed house that's been specifically designed for the site, you simply don't have the experience to comment on its livability.

As is true with so many things in life, you don't know what you don't know until it is too late.

Malcom Gladwell says it takes 10,000 hours to master something. I figure by the end of grad school I had about 3/4 of that. It was several years later before I started to get good.

Too vague, too general to be true.

Some tasks can be mastered in a relatively short time; for example, in spite of being extremely Southern, I've never been able to make really excellent biscuits. About a year ago I decided I needed that ability, so I worked on it -- I read and practiced, and now I'd put my biscuits up against anyone's. I probably put 10 hours into the task, but -- honestly -- baking biscuits isn't a particularly difficult thing.

And we all vary in our abilities. Some people go out for their first driving lesson and have the basics down; others are still hopeless after weeks of lessons. Some people could put in 10,000 hours working at dunking a basketball or hitting a golf ball and still couldn't do it well.

As for designing a house, that's something that certainly can be learned. It's a task that contains many smaller tasks, and those tasks can be learned. Once learned, however, some people will always be better at it than others -- and the people who weren't meant to be architects will quit long before they master the job.

It's safe to say that the average consumer cannot design a house of the quality, creativity, resourcefulness and long-term value that the average architect can design. That's simply reality. It's not debatable."

Okay, average isn't very good. It's average. Mediocre. Middle-of-the-road. An average person probably isn't very good with math and proportion and doesn't have the creativity to create a house "from scratch".

Keep in mind, too, that people's desire to own "the perfect house" varies. Some people want a masterpiece with multiple stories, a complicated roofline, and lots of fancies here and there .... they want to optimize /upgrade every detail right down to the outlet covers. While others simply want a simple ranch house with a few specifics that matter to them, and they'd never really notice a problem with a snoz-garage or a door that swings the wrong way. The average person has a better chance of success designing the simple house.

But the question was, Can it be done? And the answer is, of course it's possible, but it's not something everyone can accomplish.

Didn't Thomas Jefferson design Monticello and the University of Virginia? Was he a licensed architect? Of course, I wouldn't say he was average either.

For anyone who still has enough interest to read this thread, and would like more information about the house posted by DE, 16 Vanguard, above, go here: https://www.agruppo.com/16-vanguard The project description, by the architects, is an interesting read.

In their description the architects note that the floor area is 2,455 SF with the first floor being only 900 SF. Note, too, in the third from last paragraph, the description of steel "windframes" to compensate for the lack of lateral bracing opportunities. The "windframes" are innovative, but costly designs, required by the "simplicity" in the overall house design.

Once again, evidence that "simplicity" in architectural design may be anything but economical.

Interestingly, the architectural firm also designed the next-door house at 17 Vanguard, pictured here: https://www.agruppo.com/copy-of-trammel-residence

For those who have small and/or oddly configured lots, both houses are instructional about what can be done with creative and experienced architectural design.

The more DE posts and comments, the more it becomes obvious that she simply doesn't know what she doesn't know when it comes to architecture and the design of houses, or about architects.

The thread is getting tiresome.

"I've never owned ... a BMW. I probably don't know what I'm missing there too right?"

HAHA! As a BMW owner, this is absolutely correct! I can't speak to the SUVs as I'm not an SUV person, but for the cars, after driving them, they'll ruin you for just about anything else!

Here are three examples of (out of many) things in our architect-designed house that enhance livability and delight, that you'd never notice on a floor plan:

1. There is a hallway from our kitchen to the children's wing of the house. This hallway also perfectly frames the large art in our foyer some 40+ feet away from the side kitchen door. Every evening when I come home from the office, I walk through that door, and seeing the hallway/porthole to that piece of art puts a big smile on my face.

2. Every morning when I get up and walk down the hallway from our bedroom to the rest of the house, at first I see a brick wall at the end of the hallway. Then, as I walk, it opens to another, taller brick wall. Then as I reach the end of the hallway, it opens to yet another brick wall revealing the great room. In essence, the house unfolds and reveals itself to me every morning.

3. In the back of our house, we have 25' of sliding glass. From fall equinox to spring equinox, sunlight streams into the house, warming it. From spring equinox to fall equinox, no sunlight reaches, keeping it cool, yet it remains bright. It's almost like magic. The architect did this through a combination of translucent fiberglass overhang, foot print, and situating the house on the lot so that as the sunset moves along the horizon through the year, the house shades itself, and then opens itself. Is livability enhanced? Mais oui.

Not only can this last example not be seen on a floor plan, it could never have been accomplished by starting with a floor plan. As latitude matters, it would be impossible to recreate with a plan mill, and no DIYer drawing a floor plan could ever hope to replicate.

Joe T.'s description helps to make understandable how one's quality of life may be enhanced and reinforced by creative and experienced architectural design.

"Quality of life" is another ingredient of architecture which DE has sneered at in an earlier response. So unknowing.

If nothing else, this thread should make it clear to other people (if they dare stomach this thread as it rapidly devolves) whether hiring an architect may be right for them. Priorities. It has also made me feel inferior for my absolute inability to make biscuits, and made me appreciate my 14 year old BMW a little bit more.

The truism in this thread, and all the others, shows only that while some amateurs could design one not bad home, any DE designed home plan is doomed to be bad.

I make lousy biscuits, worse pancakes. I "make" a great glass of wine, and a superb steak! I steer clear of the first two and leave them to a great bakery and or restaurant. : )

"thankfully the ones that scream hire an architect are the small minority
as the vast majority of us happily live in tract housing, use builder
plans or buy plans online."

If that's your opinion, then why are you here??? Most people I know who couldn't care less about design, proportion, balance, color, pattern, siting, fenestration, etc., aren't on Houzz asking for advice. They just do what they want and live how they want. Those who care seek help and respect the opinions of professionals.

Okay, average isn't very good. It's average. Mediocre. Middle-of-the-road. An average person probably isn't very good with math and proportion and doesn't have the creativity to create a house "from scratch".

Average is just a word that means typical. Average may be the median, the mode or the mean when discussing numbers, which may or may not be adjusted for outliers. However, when referring to people, as it is in this context, it overwhelmingly refers to the first standard deviation, "the typical person."

While you can certainly argue that the arithmetic mean is not very good, the first standard deviation is the center 68% of the population. In other words, were the entire entire population told to design a house, 68% would produce a middling design. I would think of this as being a not so great home, but something that you can live in. The remaining 32% make up people who are worse than middling and those who are better than middling.

In defense of D E, I agree this forum struggles to communicate the value of architects.

Joe T did a better job of explaining why someone might hire an architect than most here have done in a while.

I am sure the architects get frustrated and don't want to put in the effort of making that same point for the hundredth time, but I suspect the shortcut of "hire an architect," or the passive aggressive "what does your architect say," does more harm than good.

I am not saying you should spend significant time writing posts, but if you really want people to respond to your advice, I would copy and paste Joe T's comment all over this forum, and be sure to buy Joe a beer if you happen upon him.

DE your ignorance regarding art and rchitecture seems to know no bounds

Joe T's comments are important because they point out the inherent power of strong architectural design to lift a project from simply "functional" to something significantly greater, i.e., the power of strong architecture to enhance the quality of life; to boost the spirit; to encourage and reward one's daily endeavors.

This quality applies to all strong architecture--residential, religious, educational, medical, office and industrial projects. Importantly, for this forum, these qualities can be found in strong residential architectural designs, as Joe T describes.

If you are one of the fortunate ones, like Joe T, you know and appreciate this important quality of strong architecture, which lifts a building from simply functional to something greater, longer lasting and more important.

If you haven't experienced this quality of strong architecture, you may think this is simply architectural mumbo-jumbo. But, if you think that, then you are wrong.

If all you're looking for in a house design is keeping the weather out, reducing the steps to the laundry, a 4-car garage and a huge granite topped kitchen island, you simply don't know what you're missing.

Joe T is giving a very important lesson about the design of homes that benefits everyone who listens.

Joe T, solar shading is nothing new to the plan mill world or diy world, sorry. the first plan I personally ever did completely factored in solar shading, so yes, DIYs do think of that as well.

you talk about a brick wall opening up to another brick wall, which opens yet to yet a taller brickwall - and that enchances the livability of your house"??? What?

your house frames your art and that makes it special?

Im beginning to think the field of architecture aka exterior decoration is very similar to the field of audiophilia

"Joe T is giving a very important lesson about the design of homes that benefits everyone who LISTENS."

I designed and built my own home. If you want to see it, here's the link:

[https://www.houzz.com/discussions/new-home-reveal-dsvw-vd~5395404[(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/new-home-reveal-dsvw-vd~5395404)

I am blessed in that I can look at a two dimensional floor plan and visualize it in three dimensions. I also have a bit of experience in design and construction, but would I recommend designing your own home? If you have access to a professional architect or designer, then no. Creating a floor plan is just the beginning and there is so much more to consider.

Let's start with the floor plan. Do you know how to place rooms so the flow through the house is maximized? Do you know how to place rooms so privacy is guaranteed? What about the size of the rooms? Just because something says 16' x 16' on the floor plan, do you necessarily have 16 x 16 feet of space, or is the space taken up by pathways? Do you know how to create good sight lines throughout the house? Do you understand proper proportions when it comes to room size and ceiling height?

Have you considered the lot the house is going on? One of the hardest parts is placing the home in the best possible place on the site and taking advantage of views and creating privacy from your neighbors. There are so many homes in my neighborhood where the garage has the best view and the windows of neighboring homes are directly across from each other.

Do you know the best place for windows to minimize or maximize sunlight? Do you know where to place HVAC and other mechanical chases so they won't impact poorly on the interior? I learned this one the hard way. Do you know what are the best materials to use on the interior and exterior of the home in your climate and how they will work together? Picking out all of those materials is a huge endeavor. I had to make thousands of decisions about materials and it almost drove me crazy! And once you decide on said materials, are they available in your area?

I'm on the Architectural Committee of my HOA and we approve the exterior colors and lot placement/drainage of the homes. I can't believe how many people mix brick and stone and stucco and siding on their homes. And everyone wants gables, and dormers, and eyebrow windows and fat houses so their roofs are 30 feet tall. We don't comment on the interior but sometimes I wish I could say something. We just looked at a home that had all of the bedrooms and the secondary bathroom opening directly into the living room. The bedrooms were 9' x 9' and the bathroom was 10' x 12'. The laundry is back behind the kitchen (and that kitchen has no windows) and far from the bedrooms. The living room faces north with a 12' deep patio. In our snowy climate, that house will never get any light. This house was designed by the homeowner and the builder.

I'm pretty lucky in that there are only two things that I'm not happy with in my home. One I could've done something about and the other I have no control over. I don't like that when I turn left after walking in the front door I can see my fridge in the kitchen. I really wish I would have noticed that when creating the plan as I wanted my kitchen out of site of the front of the house. The other is that when I'm in my backyard, I can see down into all of my neighbors' yards. But our lot is small and there's nothing I can do about that but wait for my landscaping to grow in.

If you want to design your own house, then go for it and good luck. But, I wouldn't discount the expertise that a good architect or designer can bring to the equation.

Suru: Nice house but the front door isn't facing the street!! (Inside joke if you've seen the comments of the last two of my houses posted here)....I think your house looks great!

"the first plan I personally ever did completely factored in solar shading"

Well, let's see the math (angles of incidence, rotation, etc) that shows your final intended result. There's a big difference between putting in an overhang that you call "solar shading", and actually designing a functional solution.

And outside of maybe some Eichlers, which were not designed to be site-specific, and so not as effective as they could have been, I don't think I've ever seen a tract house with any sort of solar shading, effective or not.

"your house frames your art and that makes it special?"

I don't know why you would denigrate a house that enhances art. Our house displays art beautifully, and in a manner that protects it as well—very little wall space actually receives direct sun, despite the considerable amount of glass. As art collectors, this enhances our livability, especially compared to the tract McMansion we previously had where sunlight limited where we could display our art.

"you talk about a brick wall opening up to another brick wall, which opens yet to yet a taller brickwall - and that enchances the livability of your house"??? What?"

I know it's just a typo, but I really like that—enchances—an accidental portmanteau of enchants and enhances that accurately captures living in a sculpture. Be thankful that you don't get it, because like driving the BMW, it'll ruin you for mere bare functionality.

Every morning when I get up and walk down the hallway from our bedroom to the rest of the house, at first I see a brick wall at the end of the hallway. Then, as I walk, it opens to another, taller brick wall. Then as I reach the end of the hallway, it opens to yet another brick wall revealing the great room. In essence, the house unfolds and reveals itself to me every morning.

Joe T - I completely get what you are saying. I don't like "open floorplans" because the entire house hits you in the face as soon as you walk in. I love when a house reveals itself and there are little surprises around each corner.

In my humble little house the kitchen is the showpiece. I didn't want it to be seen until you walked into it. That's why it bugs me so much about my d%*m refrigerator being visible from the front door. But, my kind husband says it's ok because it's like a little hint of what's to come. :-)

it wasn't me who wrote that "architecture is the DECORATION of construction.

That's not what the pre-eminent 19th century British art critic John Ruskin wrote either.

What he wrote, about Gothic Revival architecture in Britain, in his 1849 essay "The Seven Lamps of Architecture", is this:

"Architecture is the art which so disposes [emphasis mine] and adorns the edifices raised by man for whatsoever uses, that the sight of them contributes to his mental health, power and pleasure."

In the same work, Ruskin also writes,

"I believe that failure is less frequently attributable to either insufficiency of means or impatience of labor, than to a confused understanding of the thing actually to be done."

It's also important to understand Ruskin's architectural writings in the context of his time -- Victorian England -- and also with respect to religion, since "Seven Lamps" was the Protestant Ruskin's reply to the Catholic Augustus Pugin.

" Well, let's see the math (angles of incidence, rotation, etc) that shows your final intended result. There's a big difference between putting in an overhang that you call "solar shading", and actually designing a functional solution. "

therein lies some of the hypocrisy that is displayed on this board - the inability to accept that a a diy design can FULLY factor in solar shading, and the inability to see that many designs by EXTERIOR DECORATORS do not factor this in at all.

its clear to see, that most architectural work is decoration - a fashion statement. with little regard for the livability of the house or cost, maintenance etc.

Mies Van der Rohe's glass house was hailed by Architectural Forum as "above all a work of art of supreme integrity, unity, and perfection. What remains after Mies' subtraction is a concentration of pure beauty, a distillation of pure spirit. Sounds like something Virgil Carter would say as he is fluent in architect speak.

the house didnt have one operable window.

from the book "the old way of seeing"

Well said, Becky. Thanks!

Becky, thanks. as Ruskin said, architecture is adornment. the exterior decorators pretend they can design a structure better than a draftsman when in reality their skill is in adornment

OMG. Lets REALLY go off the rails. ...................adornment. "Gimme" a break.Maybe someone needs a month long APPRENTICESHIP at a good residential firm. Go sit your fanny down at the meetings with clients and try to listen. Yes......try.

DE, sounds like you have very,very modest desires for your new build. And it sounds like you assign a lot of value to "designing" it yourself. (whether you value DIYing more than deriding architects I can't tell) So,maybe things will work out for you.

Thanks for the word "enchance" and getting Becky to share that great Ruskin quote. Which I will do again because it is so germane. "I believe that failure is less frequently attributable to either insufficiency of means or impatience of labor, than to a confused understanding of the thing actually to be done."

"therein lies some of the hypocrisy that is displayed on this board - the inability to accept that a a diy design can FULLY factor in solar shading ..."

You miss what I'm asking—if you have a "fully" or "completely" factored solar shading, you have drawings. Otherwise, you don't know where and when the sun is inside the house. I'm giving you the opportunity to show that you've "fully" and/or "completely" factored your solar shading. And if you provide those, I'll be suitably impressed and sincerely applaud you.

Unfortunately, I don't think you'll provide any drawings, because I don't think you know what a "fully" or "completely" factored solar shading is, nor what "factors" are required. And I don't mean this to be insulting—I just think you don't know what you don't know.

"Mies Van der Rohe's glass house ..."

When we lived in Chicagoland, we lived 15 minutes from The Farnsworth House. Saying that it was stunning is an understatement. An easy (some would say cheap) criticism is that "the house didnt have one operable window". What this misses is that openable windows aren't needed in this house. The exterior part of the house originally had a screened section where Edith could enjoy some fresh air sans the mosquitoes of the Fox River. And the interior part of the house was so designed as to seem to be exterior—sliding glass + the required screening would ruin that.

We also had a pied-a-terre that was a few minutes' walk from the Mies apartments at 860-880 LSD. Those are beautiful buildings that have to be experienced in person as well, as lakefront photos can make them look like plain black boxes.

"...Virgil Carter, care to prove me wrong?..."

DE, you've proven yourself wrong time after time after time. You don't need my help.

DE - do you think of form and function as separate concepts? I seem to recall from prior threads that you are moving to this new house with kids and a spouse. Does your spouse share your construction philosophy? If so, I don't know why you don't just "follow your heart" so to speak and get moving on your build.

"I get it that you ascribe a large amount of value to looks or "aesthetics""

Of course—we are visual creatures—is enjoying beauty somehow decadent?

Perhaps you'd be happiest in a Khrushchyovka.

I think that was Tom Sawyer, but I get the reference. :-) I'll go mix up the whitewash for the fence...

Perhaps DE is just having fun aggravating those of us that appreciate good architecture, but if he/she is serious then I just feel sorry for him/her. I hope that DE has had the opportunity to feel how uplifting just being in a great building can be. For me, some of those special places are the Pantheon in Rome, the re-built Mies Pavilion in Barcelona, the Salk Institute. Even in my own condo in a good SOM building in Chicago I appreciate the way the longish hall turns and then opens into the living room, directing me to a wide open view that seems to extend to the edge of the prairie. It’s not about floor plans, or exterior decoration. When well done it’s about elevating the human spirit.

I first got an appreciation for architecture when I read "A Pattern Language" while we were renovating our home.

Just one example of something that we learned from the book is that we deepened the window in the dining room, facing the back yard. The dining room and the adjacent living room felt different as soon as the hole was cut, more inviting. It just looked right.

We live in a tract of largely identical homes, and every neighbor who has visited has commented positively on it, often saying "I'm doing that when I replace my windows!"

Building on Becky's earlier post above:

"...I would have, then, our ordinary dwelling-houses built to last, and built to be lovely; as rich and full of pleasantness as may be within and without: * * * with such differences as might suit and express each man's character and occupation, and partly his history..." John Ruskin, Seven Lamps of Architecture, The Lamp of Memory.

I would like to boast that I am the amateur exception to the rule, but, alas...

We have drawn up our own additions twice and the contractor pointed out some things that "might not look right," and he was correct. So, for an entire house, I can think that there could be any number of things you could live to regret. I have a friend who did an addition and thought it was a good idea to add a half bath here and closets here and here...long story short--she had not a single wall to place a couch on in her family room, due to all those doors--an error she didn't notice until the job was done. An experienced architect or contractor (her husband and friends did the work) would have pointed that out just from seeing the drawing. I think that if you ARE going to make your own design, it would be a good idea to hire an architect to review the drawings and point out shortcomings in the design.

My cousin gutted and renovated her childhood home, and forgot to leave enough walls to take the forced air heating up to the second story. They had to install a second system.

And her upstairs layout removed all hallways, so the stair landing goes directly into bedrooms. The only way to get to the master bedroom is to go though other bedrooms, which they thought was OK because it was their "forever home" and they used one bedroom as an office, the other as a guest bedroom. Their life has changed recently and they are finding it very awkward because it now needs to be the third bedroom. And the second bedroom shares the only bathroom with the master in a very awkwardly non-private way. They spent a fortune on the reno.

^^ Oh. My. God.