Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf made me a bit uncomfortable...

Also The Human Stain.

I often wonder what it is about us that draws us to dark literature/movies. Occasionally, I find I need to watch something that I know will "hurt"...

If it's just me, then never mind and pretend I never said that :)

Penny, no, it’s not just you. I too am drawn to what many others may find dark or depressing. Agree with you about who’s afraid of VW. Haven’t read The Human Stain.

Of late, I find heavy, sad music hard to take. I used to tend to listen to moody music. Now it’s too much emotionally for me. don’t know what changed.

The Virgin Spring, considered one of Ingmar Bergman's greatest films, and which I saw over 50 years ago, absolutely revolted me and gave me nightmares. It's the only movie I wish I hadn't seen; you can't erase those images. After that, I was very careful about movies, I still pour over reviews to weed out the nasties.

For most of my life I couldn't tolerate bloody movies, either; but as I've gotten older I find that I don't mind if the violence is appropriate - e.g., Band of Brothers, which is not for the faint-hearted, but which I loved. Gone With The Wind, otoh - I still have not looked at the Union soldier whom Scarlett shoots in the face, even after many viewings.

Also will not watch or read about cruelty to children and animals.

Interesting about Who's Afraid... I hated it when I saw it when it was first released, and although I have the dvd (part of an Elizabeth Taylor collection), I haven't watched it. I didn't buy the story for a minute. Many years ago, though, I did witness a fight between husband and wife at a party they were giving; it was very vicious and we were all embarrassed for them. So it happens!

There is something about many of the great marble sculptures that is disturbingly beautiful. A bit hard to look at for too long, as it begins to feel as though you're intruding on a deeply intimate ache of the soul. They're not alive, and yet they seem to practically throb with a life force.

Joseph Conrad "Heart of Darkness"

sable, I haven’t seen virgin spring. it must have been a special kind of disturbing for you to remember the feeling after 50 years!

Jen, yes, some f the sculptures and paintings are a harrowing window to someone’s agony. your examples are poignant.

Rory, yes conrad’s heart ... is dark, and so aptly named.

Anyone seen Almadovar’s All about My Mother? Beautiful and haunting movie. Couldn’t shake off the feeling for a while. Rewatched a few times because it’s a wonderful movie.

The Cook, The Thief, His Wife and Her Lover was just plain gruesome with little redeeming value. Bu5 the cinematography was exquisite.

There's a lot of art that is disturbing, but then again, it was a communication device back in the day when people couldn't read. St John's head on a platter, rape of the Sabines etc. Some of the religious images of hell are pretty horrifying.

sable I read the synopsis of Virgin Spring and it sounds like the 'classier more artsy' (due to Bergman) version of Last House on the Left (the original not the remake) - which trust me, has no redeeming art factor at all. I saw it when I was in college and just as you said about Virgin Spring, it can't be unseen and there are scenes that still haunt me. Violence on the screen, no matter that I know it's not real, disturbs me, even in the best movies. So I turn away and cover my ears as well as eyes. otherwise those images and sounds rattle around in my brain far too long.

Yes, I remember being horrified and haunted by Virgin Spring. I felt that way about the abortion scene in Splendor in The Grass, too. Other movie scenes have sickened me or frightened me but those two really affected me deeply.

When I was young I went to the Museum of Art in Philadelphia and saw the painting of Prometheus Bound where the eagle is eating his liver while he is alive and tied to a rock. I had nightmares for a long time after. It still gives me the willies.

That'd be a very very very long list..

I don't know whether "disturbed" is always the right word..sometimes it's very painful, it hurts..I need to think more of what'd be the equivalent of "disturbing" in Russian and whether that would be the word I'd choose. Sometimes it will be and sometimes other word might be more exact. I need to look it up

Some of the scariest books I read were by contemporary Russian authors..Mamleev, Sadur..I've no idea whether you know them, but I'm used to reading extremely..painful things, and theirs horrified me beyond whatever I'm used to.

But it can be very well known short stories..some by Flannery O'Connor, Teffi(Russian writer, first half of 20 th century..her memoirs are chilling even though she was famous for her satire and humor..some of stories are chilling too..seemingly very simple and all..), Chekhov..yesterday I remembered this one-I was very sleepy, you see, and couldn't fall aslep and I somehow remembered it, after which I couldn't fall asleep either..I read it first when quite a little girl.

it's a short story..can't say I love the translation that much, but if you never read it and want to..

https://www.shortstoryproject.com/story/sleepy/

I remember having really hard time with "Blindness" by Saramago..it was physically painful to read..I read very fast, and it's a small book, wouldn't take me more than a day under normal circumstances...but I guess I get old..took me weeks, because of how incredibly painful to read it was

I read "Lolita" the moment it was allowed for publishing in Soviet Union..maybe I was 14, 15, I don't know. It's such a great book it's very hard to be satisfied with movie after. Even though it's a good attempt to ekranize it and all..

So many new books appeared back then available for reading, and many of them were..ok it'll be too long a list as I said. Some, our teacher included in class program. Required reading, discussions, compositions. Very difficult, very hard..

Interesting how people read same books..and then you find out that after twenty years, they either forgot them, or something else happenned along the way..

okay before I go completely OT-back to Nabokov

I consider some other books by Nabokov very painful..yet one has to read them.."Luzhin Defence", " Invitation to a Beaheading"..one does need to be older for these.

As my post is too long already I'll leave movies and visual art and music out of it. But most of movies I'd pick-they'd be ..yeah. Maybe it's a bit of "Don't come to us BIG SORROW, we already have a smaller one". Maybe because they're good movies.

The Long Walk by Stephen King, under the pseudonym Richard Bachman. It's a short story, part of the Bachman collection. It moved me like no other story I have read. I've started many books that bothered me and I usually just put them back on the shelf. But this one was different somehow; I couldn't put it down. Maybe because I could relate as well to most of those boys. And the sadness of youth: you never think the bad things will happen to you, it will always be someone else. Until you find yourself staring at reality and the realization that your not immortal after all.

There is a painting in the Nelson Atkins Art Museum, Brutality by John Douglas Patrick, that makes me cry every time I see it; maybe because I grew up on a farm that it bothers me so much. It's a scene about a workhouse and looking at it you know that it's something the artist saw in real life; the tortured look on that poor horse's face is horrific.

I dunno about great art but I do know about disturbing...

I can't comprehend the idea of watching, reading, or hearing deeply disturbing things. My mind stays haunted by sadness, and I see no point in subjecting myself to it. Even if it is great literature. Sometimes in my musings I wonder whether I was subjected to great tragedy in a former life, and this life is an escape from that.

Outside, yes, I too find that particular painning painful.

Annie, dedtired, yes, great visual art conveys and evokes deep emotions, including sorrow and pain, which is more amplified and visceral than written words.

April, thank you for verbalizing a lot of what I didn’t do a good job of. Yes, “disturbing” is not exactly the right Description. Evoking deep emotions that moves us to sadness or feeling troubled, but still keeps us tethered to empathy for the characters is more like it. I’m glad you are able to enjoy Nabokov in Russian. I understand he wrote Lolita in English and translated it into Russian himself because didn’t want anyone else to translate it but fail to convey or mis-translate the English original.

the 1997 movie, particularly Dominique Swain‘s interpretation and portrayal of Lolita was just astounding.

Kris, I’m going to find Long Walk and read it!

graywings, it’s not that one looks for disturbing things to read or see, but some great art is discomfiting. So is some historical fact. my discomfort is not going to stop me from reading about the holocaust or pondering a photograph or painting of a war scene. Some things are worth, at least to me, to not spare my feelings because of the truth, beauty or creativity they convey.

Robo, that’s funny!

I don't know...I think I occasionally "look" for something disturbing or painful. Probably says a lot about me, psychologically.

Please note the word "occasionally"....

I went to see Ken Russell's The Devils when it first came out, and I could not watch all of it. While majoring in English, I had to read collections of short stories by Flannery O'Connor, and those were very disturbing to me because the characters seemed so real to me, but horrifying at the same time. Those stories gave me nightmares.

this is an aside about Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf...Edward Albee was the darling of the adoption/reform movement and I saw him speak at an Adoption Reform conference in NYC many years ago. He was a black market adoption baby - not sure if he was one of Georgia Tann's babies or not (Before We Were Yours) and could never know his original parents. His adoptive parents bought him; they were very wealthy. (eta: I just read a biographical sketch about him that says he did learn of his mother's name after his adoptive mother died - when I heard him speak, that was not the story he told).

He talked about his growing up - he said he was booted from the finest private schools up and down the East. His adoptive father eventually disowned him and many years later so did his adoptive mother. There are some very interesting analyses of his plays, including Who's Afraid, as being his inner struggles with not knowing who he was, where he came from, the lost baby and history he could never know. Their fight in the play about the "imaginary" baby is said to represent him and the feeling that many adopted people feel about not being "real" or of this world.

His play "American Dream" also echos that theme. His play "Three Tall Women" is about his adoptive mother, with whom he eventually reconciled, but still had a complicated relationship with. Some speculation that The Woman from Dubuque was also about his tangled feelings his adoptive mother and birthmother. I believe it was written when they were still estranged, but perhaps after reconciling because she was dying (I can't exactly recall). The Play About The Baby is another with a similar theme reminiscent of adoption.

After hearing him speak and reading as much as I could about him, it changed my experience of seeing his work.

Speaking of disturbing, can we talk about Hans Christian Anderson??!! I mean c'mon, "The Little Mermaid, The Little Match Girl, The Steadfast Tin Soldier"!! I'll never forget the horror I felt after my mother read me the first story in my new HCA book collection, "The Little Match Girl." And as a bed time story no less! And the Steadfast Tin Soldier sure made me feel differently about the inner lives of my toys. You can find shades of that story in the darker corners of Disney's "Toy Story." Oh well kids, as HCA might put it, it's time you learned that sometimes you win, and sometimes you turn into sea foam!

LOL, I was going to mention The Little Match Girl earlier....my mom used to read us stories by Anderson.

That one scarred me for life. Also (I'll get this wrong) The Red Shoes?....

What were parents thinking?

And has much changed? My kids all had to read Lord of the Flies at school. I hated that. I know it's a classic, but there are many more classics that don't affect a kid the same way....

The film "The Best Intentions" is the story of Ingmar Bergman's parents and includes a young orphan boy named Petrus as a somewhat pivotal character. It's been years since I've seen the film, but I still recall how haunting that child was, and even more so, how conflicting I found my own rather violently repulsed reaction to the boy. One isn't meant to despise a disturbed child, is one? And yet, Petrus was played as such a vile little thing that I held no pity in my heart whatsoever for him. I am still rather shaken when I think of it.

Oly, that’s very interesting. I had no idea.

Pinkmountain, Penny, I didn’t spend my childhood here and have no idea about the little match girl! I’m sure there were troubling children’s stories in my upbringing though, if not that particular one. Lol.

jen, best intentions sounds like it portrays a child with no control over his condition as a vile person by choice. How very unfortunate!

Yeah, like I said, it made me very uncomfortable to have such a negative reaction to a little boy. Oddly enough, I'd like to see the film again. Glutton for punishment, I guess!

I did understand you in the right sense, Jen, that it made you uncomfortable to have that reaction and to see the character portrayed that way. Sorry if I implied otherwise!

After reading Lolita I strongly suggest reading Reading Lolita in Tehran by Azar Nafisi.

Moxie, yes, I did read Nafisi’s book when it came out and also many if her interviews!

My most beloved fairy tales (and I love many) are by Andersen. My sister, she had a bigger collection of his work, two big volumes, "Fairy tales and stories", that was even better. (Ours was great, incredibly illustrated, but had just a selection, not all of them). Yes, many are incredibly haunting and sad.

I don't remember "Red Shoes"..I do remember "The Girl Who Stepped on Bread". You don't forget something like this..

I love "The Little Match Girl" ..

Even though when I was a grown up already one of my friends told me "you remind me of the little match girl..what you gonna do when you're out of the matches?"

(I thought about it, and left several. Lol)

My favorite fairy tale ever is "The Snow Queen".

My parents introduced me to many books..I must say they also tried to keep me off some but rarely..and rarely succeeded lol. My older brother-5 years older-he'd read me passages he'd be very stricken with, before we went to sleep, he had this need to share -and that's how some books I didn't touch for several years after, or never. The passages usually included some very detailed description of death..

But in general yes, they read me ballads and poems, and I loved them. Yes they left deep impression-I'd be reciting them to myself on a playground sometimes. Probably was real funny..

I still remember many by heart. And yes some were gloomy as hell. But they weren't just pointlessly gloomy, you know?..

Best things, they are always about life. Its glory and its victory. Even when they're about death. And they're always about humanity, even when they describe something inhumane

Or they wouldn't make the list of great art..

Brothers Grimm have some very frightening fairy tales

With all that, I like when fairy tales are not edited for kids..I like them how they were written. Whether original, or folk ones. There's a reason for that..many reasons. I won't go into that now, but that's my belief. I read couple good books on the subject that probably contributed to it.I don't like abridged versions.

Kids do have very vivid imaginations..they can get very scared of things that wouldn't scare grown ups at all, but can be also impressed by something that's pretty horrifying if you analyze it now, in a more abstract way, when it comes to storytelling.

Yes, nutsaboutplants, Nabokov translated "Lolita" himself..which I must say I'm very happy he did. Who knows maybe I wouldn't be able to appreciate it as much otherwise. Translation is art by itself.

And yes I agree..some things you read to know, and try to comprehend, and remember, and hopefully -hopefully-recognize evil when it comes knocking at doors and calling names, however it'll look or will be disguised. It's like for whom the bell tolls. You learn to understand it tolls for you.

Many memoirs and diaries-they're painful to read more than many horror stories, because you know that it happenned. It's chilling to the highest degree but you don't read for a thrill of it. You read to know. Many of these were under lock for decades, and key thrown out. Now you're handed the key.

Lars, you’re absolutely right about Flannery O’Connor’s stories. They still haunt me!

April, isn’t life amazing when you can read good literature in more than one language? I do wish I could read in more languages and keep thinking about the cultural and linguistic nuances we may be missing in translations. I’m glad we can access good movies in school many languages, though you miss a lot watching with subtitles.

I only recently understood some of word play in "Lolita"..took me years of living here.

And some things about "The Catcher in the Rye". I understood them only now as well. After years of living here.

That's because you understand the context deeper. In a more.. intimate way. Takes time.

And some things in "Pride and Prejuduce", I understood them only after reading Bill Bryson's book "At Home"..))

(which I highly recommend by the way. It's not fiction)

And all three, they were amazingly translated. And I loved them all, each in it own way of course as they are wildly different books.

There's alway more to understand about a good book I guess.

There's only one book I read in four languages..it's "Breakfast at Tiffany's"..I loved it in English and Ukranian, and I liked it less in Russian and French. Go figure..

"Great Gatsby" I didn't like until I read it in English. Something was missing in the translation I guess. So I grabbed it again and liked it by pure chance..when my kids were reading it for school.

I'm still to read "A Heart of Darkness"

I've a lot to read yet.

And I like very light funny books too..it's just that the thread is not about them.

I bought huge book of fairy tales collection, in French, when I was still hopeful to master it (bye-bye, hope), and I read them all, and it was a great pleasure. That's how I learnt that Charles Perrault actually had two rhymed morals in the end of each fairy tale-the one for kids, and one for adults)) Very amusing, it was.

Luckily for me I read subtitles fast..so it's fun to compare how they translate and all. If I know the original language of course. It's not that I know many. And I'm not even sure I know my own as well as I did. To put it mildly lol.

Thought about this topic some more. The worst story of all time for me is The Lottery, by Shirley Jackson. It was assigned in high school, and I still remember the chill of horror that enveloped me when the "heroine" learns that she is to be the sacrifice. I would never re-read it. I could have lived my life quite happily (and probably just as successfully) without knowing about it! The same with two other stories assigned in my English class: The Yearling, by Marjorie Kinnan Rawlings, and The Red Pony, by John Steinbeck. I was already a teen-ager and yet I had total meltdowns at home over those two; my poor mother, wringing her hands, trying to get me to stop crying.

Glad to know that others have seen The Virgin Spring and understand my repulsion. Good to know that I am not just some ninny!

Sable, I’m curious about virgin spring after all these comments, but not in a good way! lol.

april, I too read in more than one language (English is almost but not quite my nativelanguage) And my life is all the richer for it. I too keep analyzing and critiquing the translation!

When I was a college student, I saw an exhibit of Dutch painters' famous paintings sponsored by KLM. Included was one of the self-portraits with the bandaged ear by Vincent Van Gogh. Ugh. I found it horrifying, to think he did that to himself.

Lavender, yes, Van Gogh suffered from most severe mental illness by all accounts, and yes, he did that to himself durng a violent episode that also involved Gaugin. I’ve seen the self-portrait, but his face and eyes look harrowing even without the bandage.

The Long Walk was a book a could not put down. However, it was horrifying. I could never bring myself to read it again.

There is a another book I read that I will never forget. It is called A Little Life and extremely painful to read. Here is the overview.

When four classmates from a small Massachusetts college move to New York to make their way, they're broke, adrift, and buoyed only by their friendship and ambition. There is kind, handsome Willem, an aspiring actor; JB, a quick-witted, sometimes cruel Brooklyn-born painter seeking entry to the art world; Malcolm, a frustrated architect at a prominent firm; and withdrawn, brilliant, enigmatic Jude, who serves as their center of gravity.

Over the decades, their relationships deepen and darken, tinged by addiction, success, and pride. Yet their greatest challenge, each comes to realize, is Jude himself, by midlife a terrifyingly talented litigator yet an increasingly broken man, his mind and body scarred by an unspeakable childhood, and haunted by what he fears is a degree of trauma that he’ll not only be unable to overcome—but that will define his life forever.

Sorry that took up a lot of space!

Finally, a book made into a movie... We need to talk about Kevin. That was heartbreaking!

oh yes..if not my promise not to go into movies, save at least some of my blabbering to myself...yes, "We need to talk about Kevin" would be right there in the list

We started watching with my husband..he refused to continue even at some point, so I was myself and alone half of the movie..

it did lead me to some..new understanding. It's very scary and a very painful movie..but I'm still glad I watched it, or else I wouldn't get this small yet important enlightment of mine. In the end.

Aktillery, I’ve been meaning to watch We Need to ... Books or movies about children with issues are hard for me. But I do plan to watch it.

april, do feel free to talk about movies or any other form of art.

As an older teen I watched Who's Afraid of VW, and it's stayed with me all these years. Like watching a train wreck.

This picture is the only thing that came to mind because I found it a month ago. Many of you know I read everything I can about early, middle, and late medieval times.

I think I posted this picture in a book thread I did on historical fiction. Edward IV & Richard III had two other brothers, one of them being Edmund Plantagenet, Earl of Rutland. As many books I've read about them I had NO idea how their 17 year old brother Edmund died.

Edmund and his father Richard Plantagenet, 3rd Duke of York, fought together at the Battle of Wakefield, where the Duke died. Along with other nobles.

Edmund I believe was unarmed and trying to escape the battle but was cornered on the bridge of Wakefield by some Lancasterians.

When I read exactly how and why he died, my heart broke and I looked him up and found this portrait. Tears did come to my eye's.

This boy was begging for his life, and the enemy surrounding him were telling the man with the dagger to leave him alone. But since Edmund's father killed the man's father, well, it was time for Edmund to die.

He was stabbed with the dagger through his heart while on his knees begging for his life. 17 years old.

Edmund and his father's head were hung on a bridge. They were later taken down and given a proper burial.

We read We Need to Talk About Kevin when our first book club member to have kids was about six months along with her first.

She loved it.

I attended (and later worked,) at an arts camp where the author of We Need to Talk About Kevin also worked. Her name is Lionel Shriver and she taught silversmithing. Very quiet woman. Talented artist and author. But such a disturbing book.

Oakley, theexpression on the boy’s face is incredible!

robo, you’d think that a new mother would be spooked by the book, but she loved it? Wow. A clear-headed woman.

jojoco, that’s a very interesting story. I dont know any author in real life (well at least the non-academic/research kind).

I still remember the thwack sound from reading We Need to Talk About Kevin. Gah! A similar book is Defending Jacob. I think it is even worse to have a child responsible for heinous crimes than it would be to lose a child. At least I think so, having never experienced either.

I always thought Lionel was a man (or a train set).

Dedtired, i just watched we need to talk about Kevin last night and still can’t shake the feeling of dread and the dead sadness of the mother. can only imagine what reading the book would be like. Haven’t heard of defiending Jacob. Is it good or more harrowing Than good? Sorry about the punctuation. Typing with one finger.

Defending Jacob is both good and harrowing. I always read this kind of book from the parent’s point of view, which is heartbreaking. There is a TED Talk by susan Klebold, the mother of one of the Columbine shooters that I will listen to one day, but so far I can’t bring myself to do it.

Dedtired, that must indeed be heartbreaking. It’s unfortunate the frequency with which these mass killings are happening, which is a totakl6 different story.