Nobody has said the obvious, change jobs! Or start packin', get a gun, permit (if necessary) and learn to shoot straight.

I sure hope the OP’s daughter contacted the police when she felt threatened??If anything they would be apt to patrol the area more often.

Maddielee, that was my first question, did you or she call the police? No, her friend called her boyfriend and didn't get out of her car. The other friend, my daughter told her to make sure no one was following her and message her when she got home. I told her to notify the apartment complex too but don't think she has done that. They didn't get tag numbers so not sure it would help right now anyway. She loves her job and works day and night shift. I work until late at night too, does that mean I'm being irresponsible too? I worked till 1:00 and 2:00 am when I was 16 years old too. Walked home across town sometimes, took a taxi others, if I didn't have my mom's car available to me or my dad didn't pick me up like he said he would. I worked in a casino restaurant...I guess I was being irresponsible too.

I think there's a little too much infused drama in this story and attitudes.

There are safer jobs and less safe jobs, safer situations and less safe ones. Day work is safer than night work. Restaurant/bar work can be upscale or can be seedy, which is it? It sounds like it may be downscale a bit, upscale restaurants and bars don't tend to have "regulars".

Many women will immediately quit any job that puts them in contact with people who are constantly propositioning them. That alone can be unsettling. Is she in dire financial straits, is she in a position where keeping this job is her only option? If not, the solution is obvious. Having to worry every work day about the safety of leaving work and getting home is unreasonable. If she chooses to keep the job when she doesn't have to, then she's also choosing to have the propositioning, the risks and possible consequences. Not very sensible if so.

I'm not sure why you're being dismissive of comments and suggestions.

The restaurant/bar is in a new, upscale, trendy shopping center, Elmer. Most of the people who go there are young people. The only ones that bother her are a couple creepy old guys who come in there often, otherwise, she likes it. Why should she have to quit a job she likes because of a couple dirty old men?

I have to agree with Elmer. The daughter is in a business that women will be hit on. It is to be expected that it will happen. To not be hit on she needs to find another job. Waitresses have always been hit upon and it does not matter how old or how they look. Should not be that way but being friendly is part of the job and some will always think that they are being flirted with and can become too aggressive. If she stays in that industry she needs to watch the other waitstaff to see how they handle the more aggressive ones. If she asks management to step in except for asking that someone walk her to the car/transit station she probably will loose the job anyway.

If we quit a job every time a man made life difficult women would never have the careers and choices they have now.

Some here are blaming the victim. This young woman should be able to work when and where she chooses. We all have to be smart about our surroundings because there are bad guys out there after women, but to think that women in other jobs are free from unwanted advances/harassment/stalking and harm is naive. Women are followed, harassed and worse in broad daylight, on public transit, all kinds of jobs.

We need to hold men accountable who think they are entitled to attention (and more) from women who have no interest in them. It's an epidemic - and has been for years.

Maybe men shouldn't be allowed out of their houses without being accompanied by a woman companion. Let's try having men inconvenienced in every area of their lives for a change, instead of women.

Exactly Lucille, I'm a nurse and do you know how many times I've had inappropriate comments made at me by my patients and how many times I've had to talk to patients because they were totally inappropriate with my coworkers? Even over the phone we get verbally abused by patients.

My daughter left her last job because her bosses husband, who was the sushi chef pulled her skirt up in front of the whole kitchen staff. Her boss made all the young women there wear dresses or skirts, no pants allowed. One reason she likes her current job, black pants and shirt with company logo on it are the uniform.

I don’t think it’s a job thing. A fifty something guy was trying to flirt with the young cashier at Publix this morning. In a “what is a pretty girl like you doing here?” kind of way. She handled it well, but jeez. I am always worried about my younger daughter walking around Campus at night after working in the lab. There are around 23000 students there and things happen. With my older daughter, I was most worried while she was training for “Teach for America” in Philadelphia right after College. Rough area.

This is very scary! I like watching youtube videos about missing people etc. There are SOOOO many missing people, men and women that it's very scary to think about. It also angers me that in a lot of the cases, the police just dismiss these cases and assume they have just run away and don't even bother investigating. Mean while, the victim has likely been murdered and the culprit has long since gotten away and all evidence compromised by the time they decide something really did happen to the victim. Often times when they do finally figure out who killed the victim, it often times ends up being some random perp with no connection to the victim. They will be just a victim of opportunity most of them time.

Just be sure that she is always aware of her surroundings and paying attention. Being on the phone is NOT a good way to discourage a perp, in fact it is the opposite. The perp will see the victim as being distracted and an easy mark. She could use the phone though as a tool and if she sees someone suspicious, she could take a photo of them and their car and quickly send it to someone that she's chosen to do this with, like you for instance. You and she could have an arrangement that if she sees someone suspicious she will immediately send a photo to you of them. At least if something does happen, the police will have pictures and evidence that a crime really did take place!

The fact that these men are taking photos or videos of her is very disturbing and says to me that they are taking pictures and sending them to someone for approval if she's a candidate to abduct! It's crazy to think that these days a human life is no more valuable than a dollar bill!

There are these small personal alarms that wouldn't be a bad idea for her to carry. They are very loud and would provide at least a startle to the perp giving her time to run away! She should always lock her car door immediately when she enters the car.

Kath, what do you want to hear back on this post? You stated that you daughter is in what you feel is too dangerous a situation due to her work & living situation. But then you state that you don't want her to change those situations. Basically there are two answers to this problem, for her to change the job/living arrangements or for her to be prepared by being physically & mental capable of getting out of situations. You don't seem to like either of those choices so I and probably others would like to know what is the point of your post?

The scenarios that you mentioned in the first post aren't crimes and may have had nothing to do with your daughter.

Sometimes, when people post here, they are relating their feelings. The reason for the post is not necessarily a call to solve issues and indeed sometimes there may not be an acceptable solution.

The reason for the post may be to find empathy and understanding for disturbing events or issues, to know they are not alone. And certainly, where worries about our children are concerned, many of us can relate to being upset and worried about a particular issue, and it helps to share.

Raye, that is not a particularly helpful post. All of us need to express our feelings and worries at times. We try to support each other here.

i was very upset to get a notice from our local police warning that a huge mall not far away had been identified as dangerous for human trafficking. People were warned to not let teenagers hang out there unaccompanied. One person told the story of having strange person admire her bracelet and then not let go of her arm , encouraging her to show her bracelets to other friends who were standing near an exit. The “victim” was in fact a young adult who looked a great deal younger. She broke loose and informed mall security and the police. Had she been a teenager, she might not have had the sense to do this. This really makes my stomach turn.

Kath, I hope your daughter is safely in her new place soon.

Thanks for introducing "seedy" to this thread, Elmer. The restaurant biz is often a seedy business. It's alcohol fueled. A waitress needs to engage with her customers to earn a living. This is entirely different from working night shifts in other capacities; only the hours are similar.

Think of the ways in which public perception is different for a cocktail waitress and a nurse. All the 'should be's' in the world don't change this.

This is why I asked if Kath's DD must earn a living this way. Life has risks. Different jobs have different risks. I'd choose a safer occupation.

I fail to understand the Uber thing. I wouldn't use a jitney over licensed public transportation. I'm not hiring an alligator to ferry me across the river where I can cross using a company with a clean record that is licensed and insured to run that ferry.

dedtired - I haven't heard about the human trafficking. Is it the huge mall that I think it is?

It helps to post your concerns here, we learn that we're not alone with our feelings. And as dedtired said - we try to support each other.

It's only natural for a parent to worry about their children. From our vantage point we can see all kinds of situations that might be dangerous. I'm thrilled that my DD just moved into a condo in the same small complex as her brother in a much safer part of Philadelphia. For the last 2 years she had been living near Temple University but just outside their security patrol area in N Philly. Her street was relatively quiet since one side was subsidized housing for seniors. But her car had been broken into twice, she carried pepper spray and an alarm on her key chain. If she had to park a block or 2 away at night she called her boyfriend to come meet her. She was coming home one afternoon when a flash mob of high school students started attacking college students. Fortunately she is very athletic and had run track and played sports so she was able to outrun them.

But it is a constant worry.

Marie cate, yes. KOP. So glad your daughter is out of that neighborhood. When I went to Temple as an adult I didn’t carry anything beyond what I needed for the day plus a few dollars for lunch. I drove the long way around to avoid certain areas.

Thanks dedtired. She was at 19th and Cecil B Moore, now she's in Northern Liberties in an old warehouse that's been turned into small condos. There are only 23 units centered around a private cobblestone courtyard with gated access and the area is busy with lots of people out on the sidewalks. It is definitely an improvement, but parking is a nightmare.

Kath - last year one of the regulars on the Home Decorating forum posted about the problems her DD was having with a stalker. She bought a small personal alarm from Amazon for her DD to carry and also mentioned how loud it was. This is the alarm in case you're interested.

LynnNM

"This is the one, Maire. On Amazon as "Anrui 2 pieces/Pack personal
keychain alarm with flashlight". $9.99 for the two. I sent her one
and kept one for myself. I accidentally set mine off near the checkouts
at my local Walmart Supercenter and was shocked beyond words at how loud
it is! Most definitely loud enough to attract a LOT of attention!"

I have one of those alarms and a pepper spray in each purse.

Besides the sad fact that this conversation disclosed some lacking good judgement and common sense in their thoughts about life choices, it gave others yet another chance to express their extreme and irrational feelings of "all men are predatory beasts" feelings. And to reiterate the right of potential victims to in fact be victims even when better choices might have removed risks.

I'll reiterate what I said in an earlier comment - usually bars and restaurants with what I'll call a normal and respectful clientele don't have "regulars", unless it's a pick-up place. And if it is, everyone is a potential target, male and female, customers and staff.

maire...thanks for the idea. I'm going to buy an Anrui. When hiking, cells phone get "no" signal. This alarm would be helpful. Loud noises scare off mountain lions & bears too.

"usually bars and restaurants with what I'll call a normal and respectful clientele don't have "regulars", unless it's a pick-up place."

I think this comment is coming from a very narrow perspective. There are many places in this country where neighborhood bars and restaurants attract a dedicated group of regular patrons.....and they are not pick-up joints! Just neighborhood gathering places. I don't even live in small town America or out in the country but there are several local places I can visit and expect to see the same faces every time.

I'll reiterate what I said in an earlier comment - usually bars and restaurants with what I'll call a normal and respectful clientele don't have "regulars"

All over America there are restaurants where groups get together regularly, retired folks, businesses that take everyone to such from time to time, garden clubs, lunch clubs, not to mention the regulars who come in one at a time, and in very good restaurants expect to be seated at their 'regular' table.

...express their extreme and irrational feelings of "all men are predatory beasts" feelings.

You made that whopper up because not one person in this thread has said all men are predatory beasts. That has got to be the biggest straw man argument you've tried yet.

When I was younger and worked at a certain place my friends and I had a regular bar that we went to on payday. Most people who like to have a drink with friends do have regular places that they go. While not upscale by any means some of the Applebees in this area have regulars enough at least that the waitstaff know what they will order. I stayed at the Loews in Philadelphia this past weekend for the flower show and saw several people who were apparently regulars by the way the bartender treated them. The idea that bars and restaurants do not have regulars when Elmer has mentioned in the past that he goes to certain restaurants well enough to recommend them makes me smile.

This has nothing to do with bars or certain job choices. I've worked in professional offices with men whose behavior to me was appalling. One guy, an application developer, pulled my sweater up to see the shirt I had on underneath. It was so fast, I didn't have time to pull out my mace. And more than once I bought a piece of furniture from a store, had it delivered, only to have a salesperson or delivery person show up at my door a day or two later, in the evening, insisting I go out with them. Getting the police on the phone (that was before 911) or at least pretending to, got them to leave, but angrily, which was also scary. Yeah, I worry about young women.

But I also worry about my son living in the city. His neighborhood is okay (he lives above a bar!) but it's going on the public transportation, being on the platforms, that worries me. At night he often uses a ride share, at least. Worried less about sexual assault for him than being robbed or knifed.

I once asked a friend that had been a cop in a mid-size city in the 70's if the numbers of abductions and such now was more than back at that time. He said that no they aren't, we just hear more about it now.

I can only think of one situation where I dealt with an "inappropriate" acting guy at work. He probably has a much higher voice after I kneed him...

Chisue, do you know how many nurses are injured on the job? A lot. Attacked, injured by their patients? Some people don't respect female nurses any more than they respect waitresses. I posted my thoughts, not really for any "solutions", just talking at the table with a group of people. It had been bothering me for a couple weeks and I just came to talk about it, that's all.

A member of the Orlando SWAT team taught a woman’s self defense class I attended and recommended a mini stun gun from Amazon. I think your daughter of quite vulnerable when letting the dogs out at night if they are small. Hopefully she is under lights and near enough to the building to yell for help if needed.

I heard years ago that yelling fire was more effective than yelling help . People ignored the other words completely. Nothing gets people's attention like yelling the word fire. It brings them running. Hopefully in your direction when you need them.

We went out for dinner tonight. Our regular server came over to our table and asked if we wanted our regular drinks - Eel River Blonde for me, cranberry soda for hubby. Several of the regulars were there having dinner. One of the ladies always has a salad, and because she has a bad back, she stands while she eats. None of us are a threat to the employees at the restaurant/bar.

Actually, I think that estabishments that have regular customers are safer than those that don't. The regulars and the servers look out for each other when needed.

usually bars and restaurants with what I'll call a normal and respectful clientele don't have "regulars", unless it's a pick-up place.

Not true. Not true at all.

Kath -- People take abuse in many jobs. My point is that working the late shift in a restaurant/bar is an entirely different atmosphere from working similar hours in a factory...or as a nurse. IMO, the JOB is a big part of the problem -- as well as a problem that could be changed by choosing another line of work. It's hardly surprising to find risk where a young woman is *required by her employment* to be attractive and pleasing to alcohol-fueled customers. It's unrealistic to expect 'decorum' from every man whose inhibitions are loosened by alcohol.

It's unrealistic to expect 'decorum' from every man whose inhibitions are loosened by alcohol.

People respond to alcohol in different ways. If you are a male, and you realize your 'inhibitions' are 'loosened' by alcohol, it is YOUR responsibility to not drink. One should not blame the victim for being nice and attractive.

The OP was not talking about a few wolf whistles either, she was talking of worries of kidnapping and assault. Do you think we should OK those kind of loosened inhibitions?

"If you are a male, and you realize your 'inhibitions' are 'loosened' by alcohol, it is YOUR responsibility to not drink."

This is a biased comment insofar as suggesting indirectly that this is a male-only specific phenomenon and that the same caution doesn't apply to women. That's obviously not the case. And is a demonstration of the attitude I had in mind when above I wrote "yet another chance (for some women) to express their extreme and irrational feelings of "all men are predatory beasts" feelings"

Elmer you got your panties in a wad so fast trying to say something mean that you forgot to continue reading. My post was obviously a response to Chisue's post: "It's unrealistic to expect 'decorum' from every man whose inhibitions are loosened by alcohol." as she was discussing females in particular being hit on by some men because Kathsgrdn's daughter is female.

yet another chance (for some women) to express their extreme and irrational feelings of "all men are predatory beasts"

And this is still a straw man argument because no one is saying every man is a predator. Give it up Elmer. It is unbecoming to see you having a tantrum saying 'see, I was right".

No, not at all. Sorry if that disappoints you.

Your comment demonstrated the attitude bias I'd pointed out earlier. Nothing more. If that's your attitude (as it is for too many women, unfortunately), you're welcome to it. I'll feel sorry for you if your own personal experiences were so unrepresentative of our society that they have led you to point of view.

Maybe to back up to the topic - this young woman is working nights in a somewhat seedy place where customers are consistently disrespectful and the employees are wary and have attitudes about it. She often feels unsafe. She lives in a "not so great" neighborhood.

What are her life plans and goals? Is this where and how she wants to spend the rest of her life? If not, now's the time to do something about it. Why is she doing this instead of being in school, in vocational training, or in the military? The chance to make a change to better life circumstances is possible now. Each year that goes by, the ability to redirect herself will be more difficult and less likely.

Wow.

Speaking as someone who often has to shut down the amorous advances of both men AND women at every job I have worked at,(Though not as often as when i was younger,its true) I have never thought men where predatory beasts. No woman I have ever met has said anything close to that. And most women that walk this earth have dealt with at least one pig. No one (here anyway) is dumb enough to think that one pig represents the whole of the male half of the human race.

I will say though, if there were a room full of 100 predatory beasts, I would put money on at least 90 of them being male.That is, it makes sense for a woman alone to be afraid of a male more than another woman. Not the same thing as thinking all or even most or even a lot of men are predatory beasts. That's ridiculous.

And i agree that everyone is responsible for there own actions. And if alcohol influences those actions in a negative way, than it is your own responsibilty to abstain.

" if there were a room full of 100 predatory beasts, I would put money on at least 90 of them being male."

Do you expect women to proposition you? I've been hounded by inebriated women, not a just a few times and not in seedy places, and not just by strangers. And never by inebriated men. Should these experiences lead me to some general conclusion about what women do that men don't do? No, of course not.

I have been propositioned by both women and men. Both drunk and sober. What's your point?

I dont think either all men or all women are anything. That's dumb.

VERY well said, Amylou! !

Rusty

My point was what I said, and I agree with you that not all anything are anything.

There was a case recently of a college aged woman that lured and killed a high school girl. The high school girl had some issue where she was less mature, almost childlike. The woman wanted to find out what it was like to kill someone and lured her through social media, horrifying. Not all killers, abductors are men.

Who said that ALL killers,abductors are men? Who here said that or anything that alluded to that? Or anything close to that? Who?

You know, the focus ALWAYS gets turned from the discussion of women being targets of men's unwanted advances, unwanted touch, unwanted comments, stalking, and other victimizing, on to rape and abduction, and worse, to how some man had a drunken woman come on to him.Or some woman harmed a man. Yes, that happens, but it is not anywhere near the same level or insidiousness.

Men do NOT have to live with the level of alertness to danger (from predatory or violent men) that girls and women do EVERY DAY and every aspect OF OUR LIVES! Men do not have to listen to blame about working a job that they have or live in a neighborhood they do, or transportation they take, or the hours they are out and about, or whatever else life choice or circumstances she has.

So let's just hear about "poor victimized men" and those who'd rather blame women for our circumstances, than the problem this is for women everywhere. Let's not try to solve the problem by holding men accountable for what they think, say, and do to women.

I'm not guilty of your new accusations either. I was suggesting, with some intended hyperbole, the need for balance in the comments.

This young woman could have made life choices and employment choices that might have led to her spending less time in unsafe surroundings. I'll call them "better" choices. And still can.

You can attack me again for this next comment but there is also such a thing as having a passive approach to life, sometimes it's a victim's attitude. It's the rationalization that what happens is what happens, individuals have no control over their fate or circumstances in life. I don't accept that but that's how many people think.

The bottom line is that there will always be both predators and prey in all living things. If we use good sense we do what we can to not become prey.

There is healthy fear and unhealthy fear. Believing that crime lurks around every corner that mass media and social media promotes is unhealthy fear. This would include the nonsense that all men are potential rapists, women are approaching strangers in stores and malls to lure them into human trafficking, any stranger who smiles or speaks to you is a threat etc. That unhealthy fear will eventually make one prey. The relatively few true predators out there will always be able to pick the weak out of the herd. Unhealthy fear is weakness.

Healthy fear is knowing that there are some bad people and things in the world. Healthy fear is being aware of your surroundings. It is locking your doors and taking normal precautions. Healthy fear is Not because you expect to become a victim but because you are realistic enough to understand that bad things happen. Healthy fear is taking preventative measures but never allowing fear to paralyze you from enjoying life.

I part company with Elmer when it comes to dives versus nice establishments. The restaurant //hospitality trade has always been rife with corruption on many levels and it is not just the customers. From back door street drug dealing by cooks and local "thugs" in the local dives to women, kink, designer drugs and other services etc. in high end establishments often frequented by the wealthy many of who are politicians or the owners of the high end places themselves.

Raye Smith made a lot of good points. The examples cited in the OP were annoying behaviors but nothing criminal. Paranoia is not healthy fear and I think Kath realizes that herself. She just needs to work on getting past that and devise a system to help her DD gain the skills of surviving the life of a young adult.

The world is no less safe than it ever was. But for some reason we have become a fear drive society. We tend to divide people by gender, sex and race making shard human issues and threats more difficult to solve. On the other hand we blend criminal statistics into one big ball of fear without dividing them properly into their sub groups so we can view them in clear perspective and determine where and if the real threats are to ourselves.

New age feminists refuse to acknowledge that a young women having a consensual 3 way with guys in front of their friends is not in a good position to say no to the 4th guy. Being drunk doesn't absolve one of responsibility no matter if you are a man or a woman. If you want respect as an equal then act and take responsibility as an equal.

Only Kath's DD can make the decision to stay or leave her job. But if she does stay it can be a positive opportunity for her to learn how to deal with people and become mentally tougher which is a good life lesson for all to have.

Amen Watchmelol!!!

As an older woman I haven't & don't live my life in fear. I do believe in using common sense, keeping doors locked and such, that applies to all people, male & female. I don't believe that being a woman makes me a victim. Have I ever had a guy hit on me, yes and if it was unwanted I told him to buzz off, no big deal. The one guy that did try something learned immediately that his plans weren't going to work, again not a big deal.

Elmer, she was in college but the expense got to be too much. She is considering joining the Air Force but likes her job. She is 22 and hasn't decided what she wants to do with her life. Not everyone knows the minute they leave high school or has the family money to go on to college. Oh and if you think being in the service is any safer for women, you're sadly mistaken. I was stationed in Germany for 4 1/2 years and went volksmarching/traveling all over Germany and sometimes France. The only time I really worried about my safety was when the volksmarch was near an Army base. U.S. Army base, that is.

kathsgrdn, I know that service members have historically faced unacceptable circumstances of sexual harassment and danger. It's horrifying. I've read that the publicity of many incidents has led to major increases in programs and efforts in each service to identify, punish, and push out the people who have continued this legacy. I hope they're effective, it's essential.

She's 22? She's treading water (fear or lack of initiative?) and needs to pick a direction. Whether she's found herself or not doesn't matter, she'd be better off in a different environment while she's still pondering. You need to help her, push her to move on. Unless she wants to see herself waiting tables, worrying about her safety and getting ogled when she's 35. So long as she has alternatives, what she's doing isn't a good life choice.