Consumer Reports tested the Thermador ME301JS and rated it low (overall score 59 vs 89 for top-rated product) primarily due to it's poor predicted reliability. It rated the ME302JS the same on the assumption that it would perform similarly to the tested model.

It's top-rated oven was the extremely expensive GE Cafe CT9570SLSS but the Cafe CT9550SHSS appears very similar (based on geappliances.com) and is much less expensive. It has excellent reviews at Home Depot and appliancesconnection.com too.

Lawrence thank you and I appreciate your help. Unfortunately, those Thermador ovens are older and not what is currently available (advertised on some sites but no longer stocked), so I'm still wondering about Thermador current ovens. I did look at the GE Cafe but the capacity was too small for me. Do you use this oven?

I would love to hear from anyone who loves the oven (current models available) they are currently using

There are several of us here that have installed Miele CSO (Convection Steam Oven) and are really happy with them.

I have seen that chispa, thanks. Do they have a double oven with steam? I already have an opening from previous double 30" wall ovens....so I'm not looking for a single oven.

Also, my oven isn't set up/plumbed for steam and I thought the Miele was an oven that was actually plumbed oven?

My Bosch double ovens are 3 years old and I am not a fan--do love my Bosch dishwasher though. I have already had some mechanical issues and the top convection oven has never browned evenly. I have to rotate my food. :(

Thank you mom2sulu for your feedback on your double-ovens! I have heard this about Bosch, makes me sad because it's a great price-point and great capacity! I have a gas Bosch range at a cottage with no issues whatsoever, but there seems to be a lot of issues with their double ovens. My brand new Dacor has the same issue with horribly-uneven browning (along with many other problems).

Wish I could find some reliable feedback about the new Thermador ovens, or other brands...can't figure out why more people don't have input since there are so many kitchens being designed.

Does any manufacturer make a reliable convection double-oven anymore? Why are we consumers spending several thousand dollars and having to rotate our dishes?? I really miss my old Thermador double-oven....just a basic double-convection workhorse I could count on cooking food to perfection and proofing pizza dough in a flash.....

Oven interior dimensions (W x H x D), Price*, Consumer reviews*, Consumer reviews**

GE Cafe CT9550SHSS 25" x 17-3/8" x 20-1/4", $3460, 114, 112

Thermador MED302WS 24" x 17-3/4" x 17-7/8", $6999, 0, na

*appliancesconnection.com, **Home Depot

ccwaters, I didn't shop for wall ovens, but Miele has a 30" single wall oven that can be installed below their convection steam ovens. The steam ovens are 24" wide, but they sell a trim kit so that it matches their 30" ovens.

The Miele steam ovens are offered in several configurations. Some are plumbed with water supply and drain, but they also have a non-plumbed version. You would have to fill and empty the water reservoirs as needed.

As chispa recommends, I would probably pair a traditional Miele oven with a Miele convection steam oven. You may have a few inches of height leftover that should be pretty easy to cover with trim pieces at the top and bottom.

I am another huge Miele CSO fan. Mine is paired with a Lacanche range, so no other wall oven recs. I am installing regular Miele wall ovens and a CSO in my ski house. They have not gone live yet, though.

Is the Miele CSO a plumbed oven requiring a plumbed spot.

They make both plumbed and non-plumbed options. The non-plumbed ones have a water reservoir behind the control panel that you remove and fill.

If it is possible to install the plumbed version, then the extra convenience is IMHO well worth it. It might be a good idea to talk to a plumber and see what would be involved with installing the required plumbing. If you are lucky, that's easier than you are afraid. The water supply is similar to what you would need to do for an ice maker. And the drain could be a simple pipe that dumps water into a utility sink in the basement (if you have one).

On the other hand, if plumbing isn't a viable option, then the non-plumbed version isn't that much of a nuisance either. Filling/emptying the water tanks isn't a particularly big chore. It might keep you from using the CSO on a whim. But you'll still love and use it frequently.

Also, since I hadn't seen this mentioned earlier, a CSO is a lot more flexible than a regular wall-oven with a steam-injection feature. These are really two very different types of appliances.

Also wondering about the new Thermador double wall ovens (30") vs. the BlueStar (same size) vs. the Miele. My concern with the Miele is they seem very high tech, and I am more of an old school cook/baker.

I purchased a 30" Bluestar wall oven. It's been great. Holds a full sized baking sheet and has simple controls that let you do the cooking. There is a double oven version now.

@AboutToGetDusty, I hear you about wanting a low-tech oven. I am quite torn on this question. I am absolutely smitten by my new Miele CSO. It's an amazing tool that really opens up a whole bunch of new possibilities. Absolutely recommended.

I am not thrilled about it having an electronic menu, and I have encountered situations where I feel the menu imposes arbitrary limitations that get into the way. But mostly, these are all minor nuisances that can be worked around. And realistically, given the number of parameters that you ideally want to adjust when using a CSO, a fancy menu is probably the best way to control the oven. And in most scenarios, it does in fact still allow you to manually control individual settings. You just need to know where to look in the menu; and that's a skill you learn very quickly.

On the other hand, there is a reason why I decided to reuse our Bluestar RNB range. It has a great no-frills gas oven. Extremely old-school and very reliable. I am sure it'll still find good use side-by-side to my new CSO. It's a different type of tool, but it has its uses.

For the regular oven, Miele has a version with good old fashioned knob controls. For the CSO, as M points out, you probably need the fancy controls to use the steam to its full advantage. For our new build we're pairing the Miele regular oven with knobs (I believe they call it Direct Select) with a CSO with the full interactive touch panel.

Ok, so I went back to appliance store and am narrowing things down for a decision today (hopefully!)

To all you steam oven cooks:

1) Did any of you replace a dual-convection double oven [you actually baked in a lot] with your current steam oven.... and if so was it a big adjustment to get used to not having the second convection oven

2) What are your favorite disheS to make in the steam oven

3) Do you successfully bake things in them other than custards, cheesecakes, etc...what about things that are to be crispy such as cookies, pies, even pizzas

I'm leaning toward just going all standard-convection again as I do a ton of baking and I hate to give up one of my ovens....but I really wish so much that I had room for a steam oven somewhere as well. But I don't, so it would have to replace one of the current ovens in my double oven setup.

While you are correct and some manufacturers do in fact still make plain steam ovens. What we are mostly talking about here are combination steam ovens. They are fully functional convection ovens in their own right, but they also can combine steam in all sorts of flexible ways.

If you are buying a combination steam oven as a second oven, I would say it is an absolute no-brainer. In fact, it is very likely it'll become your most-frequently used oven.

I am particularly partial to the Miele CSO. It's an impressively versatile appliance. It even substitutes for a sous-vide setup. If you could only buy a single appliance for your kitchen, that device would be my first choice. It's a jack of all trades.

The typical ways to accomplish steaming are to put a tray of water in the oven, spritz the food with water occasionally, or use a water bath (though that appears to be more about temperature control than steaming). These ways have all been used since ovens were invented.

Combination steam ovens are unique in how they can add humidity over a really large range of temperatures (typically somewhere around 100°F — 425°F). Low temperature steam allows you to gently cook foods without drying them out and to sous-vide cook, which opens up a whole new range of recipes.

Medium temperature steam allows for steam cooking ingredients without loss or transfer of flavor. It's vaguely similar to boiling, but results are usually much more flavorful and it is easier to achieve the perfect texture. I would never eat boiled carrots, but much to my surprise, carrots out of the CSO have become my families new favorite.

High temperature steam allows for accelerated roasting of ingredients (steam transfers heat much more efficiently than dry air), and it gives better "oven spring" for many baked goods. I roasted a goose and it was done so fast, it completely messed up my entire schedule for the meal.

The fine control over both steam and temperature does make a big difference. I have used various work-arounds for adding moisture in previous years. But the CSO is a whole different experience. Even on my best days, I never managed to get results that came close to what I reliably do with the CSO now (and I am admittedly still a newby who doesn't fully understand what he does).

And even little things like being able to precisely control low temperatures makes life to much easier. I can of course improvise different ways to proof yeast using my other tools. But it is so much better to have an oven that I can set to a very precise level of "warm" (not hot!).

I have a Miele XL model. It is of course much smaller than my 30" Bluestar oven. But it is actually not all that different from the oven that I had in my first apartment. I like that I still have my Bluestar. But realistically, I don't expect I'll be using the large oven very much. The XL cavity is a surprisingly good compromise in size. And it preheats much faster than the Bluestar.

M, what is the biggest crowd that an XL could handle? (1-12 times per year, I'm entertaining 15-20 people.

It depends a lot on what foods you cook and how you manage your schedule. If you need enough roast turkey for 20 people, you'd have to plan very carefully. I suppose you could maybe fit two spatchcocked birds in there. Or maybe you could sous-vide three smaller birds, if you really got creative? I haven't tried if that would fit. You'd definitely hit limits at this point. And then you'd have to figure out how to finish roasting them all at roughly the same time.

If 20 people is a common scenario, maybe the XXL cavity would give you more peace of mind.

I wouldn't attempt any of this, if you didn't have some way to keep food warm. In other words, having more than one oven would go a long way to making this effort viable. In fact, multiple smaller ovens are probably better than one larger one. That also allows for a larger choice in different side dishes.

On the other hand, if you mostly serve vegetables and starches, I see absolutely no problem in serving 20 people with a XL sized CSO. That's kind of the ideal use case. You can squeeze a lot of ingredients in the steam oven and cook them all at the same time.

In about a month, I'll have to cook lunch for about 100 people. It'll happen in my new kitchen. I expect that I'll be using all three of my ovens (Miele XL CSO, Miele XL SpeedOven, and 30" Bluestar range). And there'll be a lot of advance planning, and I'll recruit helpers. But it should be absolutely doable.

I've really only ever wanted dual convections, I bake too much and have too big of crowds at holidays etc to give up the 2 full-size-convection-oven capacity I've always been used to......but the CSO idea that took over the thread was intriguing and good to know . Maybe down the road when I am baking less, for fewer people...but for now I will be getting the Wolf M series Professional Double Oven - this is to replace the Dacor Heritage Double Oven (that I just bought in November 2018) that replaced my old Thermadors double ovens that I loved.

It came down to Wolf, Miele, Thermador, and Monogram (better price and decent features). So after a LOT of research, I decided on the Wolf because of its dual convection fans in each oven, plus I spoke to a few actual people who have the current Wolf and absolutely love it and have had no major issues. I know one person who had a small issues and they have been extremely satisfied with the service experience. Plus I've had a Wold 36" gas cooktop for over 15 years and have loved that thing!...and it's still going strong!

The newest Thermador is too new and is like a whole new "chassis", not just new exterior....so I can't trust it right yet with no real reviews. It is also more narrow than the previous one I had and all the baking sheets I have fit right up to the sides (not ideal for convection) .

The Miele is tempting, but in working through it on demo mode at the store yesterday, it almost looks a little too complex for my brain that craves simplicity at this hectic time in my life...though I have a ton of admiration for that oven and those that have more patience than me :) The German-make of it is impressive, but not sure how getting parts would be....though I think it is an incredibly solid brand!

Finally, the Monogram was impressive with it's features, capacity and far more reasonable price point....but I had a bad experience with my GE refrigerator and just felt it was more of a risk (although, as I've learned, nothing is made perfect so anything can be a risk). Furthermore, though, I got my mind smitten over the dual-fans per each oven of the Wolf (and Miele) and decided I would bite the bullet and pray they last as long as I do in this house....

Time will tell....and maybe one day I will have a steam oven to someplace else in my kitchen. But for now, that' my decision.

Thanks everyone for trying to be helpful :)

Thanks for the additional intel on the new Thermador ovens - it should be of use to others searching in the future. I had noticed they were spec'd as smaller capacity than the previous generation and wondered where the delta came from (I also bake often, with larger sheet pans).

BTW, the new Thermador's also max out at 525F unlike the previous gen and most competitors in that price point. While you might not use that high of a temperature often, it's where I do my pizza's, and I didn't like the idea of not having any "headroom" on the max temperature. Plus I took it as an indicator that the new touchpad/swipe electronics were more delicate/temperature sensitive.

I was bummed Thermador made the capacity smaller. I actually brought in my cookie sheets I've used for years in my old Thermador. I tried them in each of the ovens (one of the ways I stumbled onto the Monogram) and was so surprised at the Thermador because they had such great capacity before. The misleading thing is that while the actual opening may be large, the rails for the telescopic rails stick out too much, making less room for cookie sheets... a totally unnecessary design flaw in a convection oven my opinion.

I do wish there was more reliable data on the Monogram oven, because it seems like the reviews that are out there are mostly controlled by the GE website and the appliance store doesn't have a lot of them out in the field...so all I can go off of is my own experience in the distant past with my GE fridge.

CC,

I had the previous gen Monogram in our last house (built in 2006) and loved them, but they definitely reduced the quality of the oven in the current version. The racks now, for example, are much, MUCH lighter gauge. The previous ovens were built when GE was the ownership company and Monogram was its own brand - even had its own service group. The new ones are basically going to be the same as any other GE, just more expensive. TBH, if the Monogram were of interest, I'd look at the Cafe line for basically the identical product at a more cost-conscious price point.

Personally, we were able to have our builder snag the last gen Thermador ovens at pre-increase price.

I'm jealous Michelle, those last generation Thermadors are nowhere to be found :( All of the online websites still have them advertised too, but they don't actually exist/aren't stocked.

I think that there is a big gap in price points now...nothing of good tried/true RELIABLE quality in the $4500-$6000 range for a double convection oven with convection in BOTH ovens. I considered Bosch, but that has had its own set of issues

Thank you for the info on the Monogram, appreciate all the info I can gather because I didn't make my purchase before store-closing tonight so I have several more hours to finalize.

The next oven (appliance) I love, I will take it with me if I ever move because I never want to go through this hassle again ;)

My daughter bought new wall overs this past fall. She got a microwave and a convection - GE. I don't have any idea what models. I'm sure she was price conscious, even though she loves to bake. She said it took a bit of time to get used to the speed of the convection oven (turkey was done sooner than expected!), but she was very happy with her purchase.

CC - just as an option, it's been months since we looked at them, but test-fit your sheet pans in a Bosch Benchmark set. Since they are the parent company of Thermador (and since they are advertised at the capacity of the previous generation Thermador), they might be an option as well. They don't have as many full-extension racks (but you can buy extra). They were my backup.

Ccwaters, hopefully you have read the threads about the blue enamel chipping in Wolf, even the M series and really most other blue enamel except Gaggenau. Their service is good during your warranty but they don't really stand behind known issues(10 year history) like this. There are some class action lawsuits over this because some people have repeated issues.

If I were buying Wolf, I would strongly consider the L over the M. The dual fans in back were a pretty good thing. The corner tower fans seemed to have set up sort of a linear flow along the sides that makes things brown faster on the sides so things have to be placed more to the middle if you don't want that. There are some threads complaining about that issue. The dual fans create more turbulence so you don't have the linear flow of hot air. Monogram and some others address this by periodically reversing airflow. They also did away with the multi speed fan in the M which is unbelievable to me. It set them apart and was the most usable convection mode to me. They claim on their website it didn't have much benefit but if you could slow the fan speed down, you might not have that issue with the over browning on the sides. These are screen shots that are from the video touting how evenly the M oven baked.

This is two casseroles side by side.

Each cookie sheet was placed on a shelf.

The ones on the outside (left) are browner on the bottom than the inside(right)

For some this won't matter but for others it will.

You can also buy service plans but make sure they don't exclude the enamel or deem it cosmetic.

I am replacing my wall oven at some point. I love my Electrolux. It had very usable modes and had two fan speeds but they tinkered with it too. It had issues with blue enamel chipping and they covered the racks with it. It has an error code that disappears with resetting the circuit breaker so I am nursing it along. I am looking at Bosch 800 vs Benchmark. I don't want the side opening door though.

As to roll out racks, I only want them on the bottom. I bake a lot and change the other racks around all the time. The roll outs take more to take them in and out.

Thanks Lisa, it's never too late to comment...if it can't help me (or any other original poster) it can always help other people that come on looking for answers (like I often do :)

That's so great that you like your oven so much, I had written off KA because a close friends had so many issues with her Convection/Combination Microwave Double Oven.

Anglophilia, she will never want to be without convection again once she gets used to that oven! Because I've been so accustomed to excellent convection bake, roast, broil plus proofing (I use this a lot) I really want to be sure I get something at least as good as what i had.

Michelle, I went back tot he Bosch benchmark again last night when I was trying out my cookie sheets at the appliance store, and Bosch did something as silly as Thermador's oven-rack rails sticking out too far....Bosch put a bit of a "lip" on the back of their racks (likely to make sure the baking sheets don't get too close to the back?) , but this makes my cookie sheets extremely close to the front of the oven door....which poses the same issue for me as the sides being too narrow for convection heat to circulate optimally.

All my cookie sheets are this size because of my old (Thermador) capacity. I could go and get new pans, but I have several recipes that utilize every inch of my current pans so as long as there is an oven to accommodate them (The Wolf, the Miele or the Monogram) I plan to just go that route instead.....plus I now really LOVE the idea of the 2 convection fans in the back of EACH oven in Wolf (and Miele)

Thanks again for all the input!

Thank you wekick! I was told the M series is the only Wolf 30" Double Oven that has convection both top and bottom (which is a priority for me). The E Seies is top-convection only. The L Series is a 36" oven...and I need 30"

And from the Wolf website, they can explain better than me

"There have never been ovens like these. The high-performance heirs to our pioneering L series, the M series combines four striking new looks and advanced Dual VertiCross™ convection for the most consistently delicious cooking results yet.

Yes, The convection Dual VertiCross "towers" are in the corners of each oven on the M Series:

The Miele had the two fans in the middle of each side on each oven, a really smart convection as well:

To be honest, this two-fan convection is what's making it hard for me to look at another oven! I am a huge baker and do multiple racks in both ovens at the same time often....and the attention to convection in Wolf and Miele makes them more appealing to my personal wish list ... others may find it overkill, but I find it pulling me toward the Wolf...but I will check out other threads if I can find any.

I did see all the posts talking about chipped enamel and was told by a few different reps at different stores that the blue enamel was not an issue they were seeing much of out in the field currently.

One rep told me that when a little chip happens on other blue-enameled brands, that the manufacturer often send out paint and instructions on how to paint over chip....but that a previous Wolf customer who chipped the paint [after a self-clean mode with putting the racks back in improperly] was contacted by Wolf and they replaced the whole entire oven!

Hopefully if I get a Wolf, the enamel won't be an issue...but if it is, I like that Wolf is very aggressive in their remedies. One last point, I never use self-clean mode, so hopefully that will prolong the life of whatever oven I get and keep repairs to a minimum like my old Thermadors.

Thanks for all your input!

Hi Rachel, I had electric double convections with hidden bake element (bottom of oven was smooth), and to be honest they were never all that dirty. I always took care to put a bit of foil right beneath anything that could spill over (pasta sauce, apple pie, etc.)....but NOT on the bottom of the oven. So in 15 years, the worst I ever had on the bottom of my oven was a LOT of crumbs from biscotti or cornmeal from pizza crust. In those cases, I aways just waited until the oven was cool and then took hot soapy water on a towel to wipe it all up (have even taken a vacuum to it before the wet rag)

The inside of my door would sometimes get splatted from roasts, etc...and in those cases I would wait until the oven cooled down and take soapy water to it. If that didn't do the trick, I would use vinegar and let it sit a while, once in a while I had to use baking soda too.

From the onset of having those ovens, I was uncomfortable with the idea of having a locked oven door at such extreme temperatures running on a cycle for a long duration...and then I also wondered if it was that great for the longevity of the oven. In talking to a repair guy several years later, he confirmed that the self-clean does - in fact - shorten the life span of the oven. Mine lasted 15 years and worked wonderfully until the electronics in the control panel needed a repair but there were no longer parts in existence to make the repair.

I know you have already made your decision but wanted to chime in for other readers. I recently purchased the Wolf M Series wall oven and so far I really love it. I went in knowing about the blue enamel chipping potential but am hoping that the customer service team at Wolf will be there if this should ever be an issue. I love how intuitive it is to use and while I haven't given it a strenuous workout, everything I have baked so far has turned out well.

@carladr I'm so glad to hear you really love the M series because it is reassures me in my decision of also deciding on the Wolf!!

In the same spirit of trying to help other readers, these are the reasons for my decision of choosing the Wolf [over the Miele or Monogram]:

-The Wolf M series is the largest USABLE capacity oven I found, racks and rails intelligently designed, the interior-back of the oven curving outward providing even more space inside.

-The dual-convection "towers" within each oven is one of the smartest convection designs I've researched for even-browning (though Miele has smart design as well).

-Wolf's standard warranty is an impressive 5 years: The first 3 years cover parts and labor when installed by a "certified" installer (otherwise 2 years parts/labor)..... and then the remaining 2 ( or 3) years cover parts only.

-Wolf offers 24/7 customer service - I actually called a few times in my research and love that I have that accessibility at any time of day or week....it could prove very helpful if I ever need to troubleshoot at an odd hour

-In the event I ever need service, I have a certified Subzero-Wolf technician only 5 miles from me. I called and was able to schedule a service/repair within 48 hours (except I don't actually have the oven yet ...but was a helpful experiment ;)

-The Wolf is manufactured in Wisconsin, and since I live in the US I'm happy to support American-made goods, and --- should the need arise --- I can benefit from parts being easily accessible.

-My 15 year old Wolf cooktop is still going strong and I've only needed service on it one time in 15 years for an individual burner....which was at about the 7-years-in mark

Overall, the functionality, and promising reliability, are what made me choose an oven I'm now pretty excited to be able to cook with... I will report back if I find that any of my assessments prove to be different in actually owning and using it.

One last thing I forgot to mention I recommend/did that was super helpful [when I was trying to finalize my decision that had been narrowed down to 2]

Locate an authorized service/repair place that services BOTH brands/appliances in question, call and speak to an actual repair tech about:

-if they see more or less repairs between brands, one over the other

-if there is a consistent or recurring repair that one or both have

-if one is easier to repair / more costly to repair than the other

-which they would spend their money on

I had narrowed it down to Wolf and Miele. I called Miele service and they gave me the name/number of their authorized repair company (that also services Wolf). That repair tech said:

-he gets about the same amount of calls for each Miele and Wolf double ovens,

-that there was no "recurring" repair issue with either, that the costs vary respectively depending on issue

-Miele was a huge hassle to repair because it always took so long to get parts in

-even though Wolf was more expensive he would go with Wolf (...then when he found out the Miele was more expensive, he was emphatic he would get the Wolf)

-also....because I asked about this sensitive issue ....he also told me that in the last year he had been working there, he hasn't seen a single issue with blue porcelain chipping

This tech I spoke to can't tell the future and there are no guarantees of escaping things going wrong with appliances, but this is one more piece of the decision-making puzzle that I highly recommend... and wanted to share.

Now all I can do is hope and pray all goes well.....but I will report back if the Wolf has issues!

I'm at that point right now in my double oven purchase. I'm not a gourmet cook but would need double ovens for holiday family/friends gatherings. I have narrowed down to three - between the Wolfe E or Bosch 800 or GE Monogram!

Bosch is atleast 2k cheaper than the Wolfe and GE Monogram 1k cheaper than the Wofe.

Chipping is the main concern! GE Monogram I currently have in my home (bought in 2011) has no issues with chipping. Never have used Wolfe or Bosch.

The more I read the more I get scared to make a decision but thank you all for taking the time to update the thread!

I have posted this a few times before but I will say it again.

I have the Bosch 800 Series double ovens. Honestly, they have never worked as well as my cheaper Kitchen Aid in my previous house. I have uneven browning where I have to rotate pans and also I have never achieved the correct color of browning for my meringues on my pies. Additionally, I have already had to replace the main circuit board already which cost me approximately $600. I use my oven heavily during Christmas only while I am baking. The rest of the year I only use it a 3-4 times a week. Now perhaps I have a lemon but when the tech has been here and has run tests, he says it is in perfect working order as far as all the technicals and such. But I still get the same results cooking/baking.

Also, I LOVE my Bosch dishwasher so I am not anti-Bosch, just the 800 ovens that I have. If I were to do it over, I would spend a little extra for something better.

You picked a really good thread to comment on. Lots of very useful information. I'd recommend reading it from beginning to end.

The only additional advice that I would like to give you is that I wouldn't want to buy a double-oven. It's really painful that you'll have to replace the entire unit, if one of the two ovens dies. Better buy two separate ovens.

Also, I learned that it is rare that I would need two full-size ovens. But I very much appreciate the faster pre-heat times for smaller ovens. So, I'd encourage you to consider two different-sized ovens. And for similar reasons, I'd encourage you two get two ovens with different complementary features. You could do gas and electric. Or convection and SpeedOven. Or (my favorite) convection and combination-steam.

Also, if you have access to outdoor space, consider getting a gas BBQ. Since we finished our remodel, I have now cooked for larger parties a couple of times (up to 100 people in one case), and I used my gas BBQ as another large oven. Works beautifully for things like slow roasting large amounts of meat. And I guess it would also work for slowly braising stews. All you need is a good thermometer.

I understand the double oven vs single oven in terms of replacement - but for “height challenged folk“ it helps to get double and place to at the lowest allowed height And of course the cost

Cost is of course the elephant in the room. Can't really argue around that :-)

But as far as height is concerned, I am extremely pleased with just how useful the size of my Miele CSO (XL instead of XXL) turns out to be, even though it is so much smaller than "full" wall ovens. It's hard to convey this to users who haven't tried it themselves. But it might help with your space planning.

@paddykk - why not Bosch Benchmark? They appear to be better spec'd than 800 series. They were one of my alternates to my Thermador Pro series (the older version, not the new swipey-control one).