You can't have a 30 x 60 table and expect to seat even 4 people at the table. Your island was too larger or the space. Best to center either the range or sink on the island.

If the HVAC chase can't be moved, maybe consider putting the sink off-center to the window, lined up with the right side, to provide a bit more space between it and the range. You can center the faucet on the window to disguise the sink being off. I added a few inches to the base cabinets on the sink wall, and made the island 48" deep:

How about an island that mirrors the angled stair wall.

could also round the countertop on back side

Spacing diagrams

FYI, the counter on my buffet is 18” deep and it’s never been too small for anything.

I prefer rectangular island with seating on two sides, but artistsharon's angled island fits the space well--as long as the aisles are sufficient.

I have a buffet counter in my DR--countertop is 18" deep, which is fine for trays of food and the coffee pot. There isn't quite enough counter space in front of serving vessels to put a dinner plate down while one is dishing food from a bowl or tray, but for desserts and dessert plates it works well.

I'm interested in this thread, but I've been holding off on commenting because I'm not a pro kitchen designer. But I do have a few suggestions based on that you said you all like to cook together as a family and that one of your kids likes to bake.

We are a family of 6 with a huge local extended family that is over here a lot. We have all the holiday meals, swimming parties, etc, etc. And we scratch cook all day every day. So about 4 years ago we remodeled our kitchen to suit our preferences.

If you have a baker in your family:

- Consider getting a second dishwasher. If you think it's just a phase, then don't go to the expense of installing one and giving up storage space. In our case, my daughter was just starting to have a passion for baking right at the same time that we were remodeiing. We did not install a second dishwasher. Well, 4 years later the passion has not gone away (catering, gifting, teaching...), and if you think this passion for baking is here to stay in your household, then try to find a place for DW #2.

- Also for the baker, try to figure out where you could put an electrical outlet in the island that is VERY FAR from the general prepping/chopping/cooking zone. This will become the plug in place for the baker.

The island and the seating:

- It's nice to design the island so that people can be more conversational. In our old kitchen the kids were lined up like I was a short-order cook in a diner. Our new kitchen island has 2 stools on one side and 2 stools perpendicular.

Space/distances/clearances:

- I recently helped my Dad remodel his kitchen. His is a one-butt galley kitchen. The design decisions were different - he needs everything close at hand, barely even have to move his feet to reach something.

- But in your case you want to have your whole family in there cooking and enjoying together. So I think you should look at those spacing diagrams posted above. Having a lot of elbow room will increase your enjoyment while you are all cooking together.

- SS

First, thank you all for responding to my post and offering your advice. Already y’all have shown me new, interesting, and better ways to think about this kitchen layout.

Not sure the best way to respond, so I’ll respond to everyone in this one post. But first some new questions…

- Would the rectangle configuration for the island give us more base cabinet space than the angled island?

- Could we go narrower than 48" on the dishwasher aisle since the travel distance is so short?

Sabrina- Yes, I suspected I took it too far with that island. My motivation was to get as many base cabinets under that thing so I could get more drawers and shelves since I don’t have many options on the walls due to appliances.

That area where the buffet will go could accommodate a 20”deep countertop at most because of the double doors. But I agree with you. I’d love to put in an undercounter wine fridge there and dedicate one of the cabinets as our bar. If I can find a reasonably priced shallow depth model. I’ll do that.

Beverly- Yes, I agree on the table. Thank you for your guidance on the size. We will follow that advice for our new table. Your advice on centering the island on one of those two items is appreciated too. Having some symmetry somewhere would be nice.

Mama Goose- Yes, I agree with adding more inches to the base cabinets as you’ve done. My drawings didn’t reflect that, but I was planning on it. And I do love the way you’ve configured the island seating. I especially love the end cabinet you’ve imagined on the island for the dishes. Makes so much sense with the proximity of the dishwasher, as well as access for the kids.

Artistsharonva- I did play with a concept that included cutting off that corner to match, but it was not as well thought out and designed as yours is. I will look at that a little more and see how I might make that work. Thank you!

Emilyam819- The max I could go is 20”. Maybe I should just max it out.

Ssdarb- Thank you for contributing your real life experience, especially as your goals and needs are similar to ours. Unfortunately I just don’t think we have the space for a second dishwasher. The electrical outlet advice is welcome, as is the confirmation on the seating arrangement. I think we’ll definitely be considering that advice.

Thanks again everyone! I appreciate your generosity with your time and experience to help us.

I spy an air return in the current pantry wall... You will need to take that into consideration as well.

Kirkhall - Yes, I was hoping to possibly integrate that into the base cabinets of the island somehow, or otherwise move it. Thanks for the heads up!

Have you considered changing the double door to a single? Then your perimeter cabinets can be longer and you wouldn’t have almost too much space where a table was meant to go.

daniel, you asked a question, and I started working on an illustration, but then took a detour for the holiday. This layout is approximate, since I don't know the exact angle of the stair wall, and length of the fridge wall. It incorporates artistsharon's angled island, and emilyam's single door suggestion. I also added an optional prep sink to the island.

Hello all,

I needed to attend to other projects, but I have been thinking about the kitchen and I have a new layout I'd love to get some feedback on.

To answer the question... we did consider changing the double door to a single, but we don't have the budget for that, and we like the double door.

Mama-goose - so this means your second sketch may not be a good fit, but your first one with the island with seating on both sides is interesting. What do you think would be the benefit over having the overhang and seating on the one long side?

Some questions I have with our new layout draft...

1. Is the refrigerator weird sticking out over there? It will have a finished end and cabinets above for a more built-in look. What do you think of it encroaching on the dining area like that?

2. The small pantry would be shelves and hold canned goods, spices, bottles, jars. And the larger pantry would hold most other food items, boxes, maybe small appliances on the bottom. Seems ok, yes?

3. I think 15 inch deep uppers would be well suited here. Thoughts?

4. Upper cabinet in the small space to the left of the stove, or no?

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate being set straight on these things. I don't want to make any poor choices we might regret.

Now I'm debating the pantry on the end vs. the refrigerator on the end. Even if I wrap the fridge, is it weird to have it sticking out there?

Not sure you have room for this, but it would allow for formal gatherings without a separate dining room and you might use an extension table here as well. Homework could be done here and there is a nice stone countertop all around behind it for for rolling out pastries

Hmmm... that's interesting. And something I hadn't considered. Thanks for sharing that!

Daniel,

Generally the idea behind having seating on two sides is the same as at a dining table -it is easier to have a conversation facing the other diners, rather than sitting all in a line. By having it this way, you are also allowing space at the end to have a cabinet that faces the dishwasher for easy unloading.

I like the general layout with the dining room to one side, and the buffet area closer to the living room. If you host frequently then it gives you a place to put appetizers/desserts where people in both the kitchen and living room can get to them without getting the in flow of the work space. Putting the clean up sink and the fridge on the edges allows a similar easy flow. My only recommendation, would be to go with the prep sink on the island, it will allow you to take fewer steps when prepping food. If the island is all one level, it should still allow plenty of space to roll out things for baking or to place cooling racks for the finished product. As a bonus, because there is a sink there, there would be no need to wipe things off the edge of the counter (and onto the floor, more than likely). One could just wipe them directly into the sink.

Joy, thank you for sharing your perspective. Sounds like you like the island with two stools on the left side and two on the bottom?

I was considering that further yesterday also. I think it might mean I can add more cabinets and get a little more storage out of it, so may be the way to go.

I would not mind having a sink in the island. But I am doing this DIY as much as possible and I don't want to get into any plumbing modifications. I'll look into it further though, I agree it would be a real nice to have.

You don't think the fridge all the way on the end is a bad decision?

You may want to adjust the sizes of things depending on what you are comfortable with, but these are some very rough (based on your general room measurements) pictures of how the layout may look.

So, I took a look..and I do have some concerns, especially if you try to fit a 48"D island into your space. Your space just isn't wide enough to have that deep an island + decent aisles + space to move around the island. Even a 41.5"D island is marginal. A few things have to be taken into account in your design:

(1) You definitely need to have enough room for multiple cooks:

"We're a family of four. Two kids, one 5 and one 10. Wife and I both love to cook and share the responsibility equally. Kids will also help out in the kitchen and our oldest loves to bake by herself."

• This means your aisles really need to be a minimum of 48".

• It also means you need to have more than one place to prep and, preferably, a water source in at least two locations so you're not fighting over the sink. (Add in someone trying to cleanup or load/unload the DW while others are prepping/cooking, and you're asking for trouble -- especially when your kids are in preteen + teen! (Trust me on this!)

(2) Busy traffic in the Kitchen.

The Kitchen is in the middle of the path between the Family Room and the Dining Room and, I think, between the entrance (far left) and the rest of the house -- including the stairs that I assume go upstairs to the bedrooms. That area is going to be busy. So,

• You need adequate aisles to allow considerable traffic + table seating and considerable traffic + island seating. Do not skimp on aisle space (or seating space)!

• You need a minim of 48" between the island and anything behind the seats (e.g., the stairs). More would be better, but your Kitchen isn't deep enough.

(3) Island configuration:

Since you need the minimum aisle widths (48") around the island, you cannot fit a 48" deep island. Instead, have a 3 seats along the back and one on the side. Is it ideal, no, but it's better than most I've seen.

• Your island is then 41.5" deep:
  1.5" counter overhang in the front + 24" deep base cabinet + 1" decorative door/end panel on the back of the base cabinets + 15" seating overhang = 41.5"

• In addition, each seats need 24" of linear space, so only one seat will fit on the 41.5" long side --and-- you cannot overlap seats on a corner, so even skimping on linear space won't work. For 3 seats, that means you need 72" (6').

• Your minimum island needs to be 72"W x 41.5"D

For your Kitchen size:

• From what I was able to calculate, it appears the longest part of your Kitchen is no more than 116" + 71" + 19.5" = 206.5" [Note: The 19.5" measurement might not be right, I had to base it on what I saw elsewhere b/c a couple of key measurements were missing on your layout.]

• The stairs encroach on that, so where the island ends, it's a bit less than 149"

• The minimum space you need is: 25.5" + 48" + 41.5" = 115" and then add in 33" to accommodate the needed the space b/w the stairs and island = 148"
  [Why 33" and not 48"? This can be a bit complicated...the stairs are on a diagonal, so a straight line measurement doesn't work. Instead, I had to work with rotated lines to calculate what was necessary to accommodate a 48-inch aisle. If it's too complicated or I didn't explain it well, don't worry about it...you'll see the results in the layouts.]

.

Layouts....

With all of the above in mind, I came up with two layouts -- I like #1 the best b/c I think it gives you the best functionality, more workspace, and a more open feel.

Both have two Prep Zones: (1) in the island with a prep sink and (2) on the perimeter b/w the cleanup sink and range. As you can see, Layout #1 has more space b/w the range and cleanup sink.

The sink run of counters and cabinets are 3" deeper than standard. This gives you more storage (especially dish storage) and and deeper workspace. It also pulls the sink 3" farther from the window and window sill so you can easily fit any faucet, clean behind it easier, and minimize window splashing -- without being too far from the window to open it.

• The base cabinets are 27" deep (If you cannot get deeper base cabinets or they're too expensive, pull standard depth base cabinets (24"D) out from the wall 3" when they're installed.)
• The upper cabinets are 15" deep (Most lines now offer 15" deep uppers for a reasonable price) The deeper uppers also provide better storage for deeper items like platters or large dinner plates.
• The counter is 28.5" deep

The deeper cabinets & counter also allow you to have a Dish Hutch. A Dish Hutch has a lot more storage than a standard base + upper setup. The upper goes down to the counter and, allows you to utilize the entire height for dishes, glasses, etc. In your layout, it's a 27" wide Dish Hutch. (That means you have an additional 27"W x 18" tall x 15"D = 7,290 cubic inches (about 4.2 cubic feet) of storage.)

Other items:

The island has a prep sink so the island can function as a Prep Zone (key Prep Zone items are water and counterspace). There's still plenty of open space for baking, doing homework, science projects, crafts, wrapping gifts, etc.

The island also seats four people comfortably.

Dish storage and the Cleanup Zone are outside the Prep and Cooking Zones -- allowing you to have multiple people working in the Kitchen -- prepping, cooking, baking, cleaning up, unloading the DW, setting the table, etc. -- without getting in each others' way.

The MW is on the long counter at the "bottom" of the Kitchen. That space also makes a nice Snack/Tea/Coffee Center and, if necessary, a "tertiary" Prep Zone. While there isn't direct access to water, it can be used in a pinch for prepping.

That long space also has additional storage space for pantry items or other needs.

I suggest building up the half-wall b/w the Family Room and the Kitchen to at least 42" tall to allow a bit of separation and to block a direct view of the MW (assuming you put it there -- that seems to be the best location. It's at a usable height and has room around it for landing space.

The both have a full-height 18" pullout pantry and, in front of the furnace exhaust bumpout, a full-height shelved pantry cabinet 18"W x 9"D. A lot will fit in that 9" deep pantry cabinet! Layout #2 has a 9" Utility cabinet (or another pantry cabinet).

The Dining Room

• In Layout #1 has a partial banquette style -- one long side and one short side are in the corner. The other seats are chairs. It easily seats up to 6. If you have leaves, you might be able to squeeze in a couple more seats, but only if/when really needed b/c it will create aisle/traffic issues. There is plenty of space around the table for seat access.
  This layout allows you to move the Refrigerator to the other side of the furnace exhaust bumpout. This frees up space to the right for needed counterspace. (This is the primary reason I prefer this layout. It's worth losing the 9" wide utility cabinet -- at least to me.)

• In Layout #2, the Refrigerator will not fit on the left of the furnace exhaust bumpout, so the amount of counterspace around the range is significantly reduced. To fit the table, there are minimal aisles on the left (36") and top (35"). However, they are not "through aisles", so they should be OK. You'll have to do a bit of squeezing, but with only 4 people, it won't be bad. The important aisles are wide enough.

Here they are:

Layout #1:

Layout #1's Zone Map:

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.

Layout #2

Layout #2's Zone Map:

@Buehl - Thank you so much for your time and input. This is a lot to take in, so I will spend the time to study and research what you've shared here. Thank you so much, this is very helpful.