New build kitchen layout advice needed

6 years ago

First post to the kitchen forum. I've been waiting for this for a long time. :)

Background: this is a new build, submitting for permits sometime this summer. Family is two adults and a toddler, not having anymore kids. I love to cook. The kitchen is an open galley with the great room in the front and the dining room on the right. The back wall is 320". The proposed island is 10' x 4', with 4' walkway between the back wall and island.

Nothing in the plan is set in stone except for the basic structure (room size, windows, etc). We are having the cabinets custom made so are not bound to any standard sizes.

Ideally this is what I would like to try to fit in the space. Do you think it's possible?

- Lacanche Cluny 1400 (55 5/16")
- 48" built in fridge/freezer columns

- 36" sink

- dishwasher

- 24" short wine fridge

- built in microwave and coffee center (24")

- at least 24" of pull pantry storage. We don't have a walk in pantry so this is all of our pantry storage.

- appliance garage for small appliances (blender, rice cooker, stand mixer)

- some place to put cookbooks

Also, currently our sink is in the island but would it look strange on the main wall with the stove? Would it fit? I'm not sure I love the sink in the island solution, but I don't want that back wall to be cramped.

Thank you in advance!

Featured Answer

Buehl

6 years ago

last modified: 6 years ago

Here's an idea:

The counters and cabinets along the perimeter are all 3" deeper than standard:

28.5" deep counters
27" deep base cabinets
15" deep upper cabinets

The deeper cabinets provide a lot more storage and the deeper counters provide more workspace. If your cabinetmaker does not offer 27" deep base cabinets, then simply pull standard depth base cabinets out 3" from the wall. Most, if not all, cabinetmakers offer 15" deep uppers.

The Cleanup Zone and Dish Storage are near the Dining Room for ease of setting the table and cleaning off the table. They're also a direct shot from the Living Room.

Dish Storage is in a 30" wide dish hutch. The upper cabinet goes from the counter up to the ceiling (or however high your uppers go). This gives you a lot of storage space for dishes, glasses, etc. With the deeper counters, the upper cabinet of the hutch is 15" deep so you can fit all your plates and platters.

The two Prep Zones are separated from the Cleanup Zone, which allows you to have someone cleaning up while others are prepping/cooking.

With two "primary" Prep Zones, you can have two people doing major prep work at the same time. It also provides you with a choice of where to prep - on the island or b/w the range and cleanup sink. As your toddler grows up, s/he will be helping in the Kitchen, so you will each have your own space! It also allows guests, etc., to help out during get togethers.

With the prep sink offset, you have a wonderful expanse of workspace for large projects such as baking, cookie decorating, crafts, school/science projects, wrapping gifts, staging food during parties, etc.

Both the MW drawer & wine cooler are on the sides of the island to keep people out of the main work zones. It really doesn't matter which side of the island they're on - you can switch them. I can argue for/against both arrangements. The refrigerator & freezer are on the periphery of the Kitchen for the same reason.

The trash pullout is located so it's easily accessible from both Prep Zones, the Cooking Zone, and the Cleanup Zone as well as on the periphery.

Small Appliances...There's a mixer lift for your stand mixer and the other small appliances can be stored in the 27" wide drawer bank across from the mixer lift. No appliance garage, but in all honesty, most people end up taking them out when they remodel b/c they take up too much counterspace and the what counterspace there is in front of the garage is useless b/c you don't want to block access. Better to store them where they can be easily accessed without having to move things around or even to shuffle appliances around in a smaller space inside a garage. With the drawers, they're all accessible without shuffling or taking up valuable counterspace. If there's room, you could also store them in the Pantry - 12" deep shelves hold the vast majority of standard small appliances.

Cookbooks could be stored in the shelves of the 24" upper cabinet, if you'd like. I ended up storing mine in an upper cabinet next to my hood b/c I forgot to plan for them and that location is actually working out quite well! They're right were I need them! If you have dozens of cookbooks, they probably won't all fit, but you could at least store your most used cookbooks there on 1 or 2 shelves.

I put in the Savigny range. It's still quite large, but at least you gained a few inches of workspace!

The pantry is a reach-in, possibly step-in pantry with only 12" deep shelves. Built-in pantries are much more efficient and flexible storage if their shelves are not too deep - and they're less expensive!
They provide a full view of what you have so there's no opening/closing drawers or roll out tray shelves looking for something
Shelves can be adjustable for not only flexible storage initially, but if your needs change later, you can re-adjust them.
If needed, you can store larger items on the floor.
You have access to the entire space for storage - floor to ceiling. You can even use the side walls to hang a broom or mop.

The "sweet spot" for pantry shelf depth is 12". Just about everything will fit on 12" deep shelves - cereal boxes, rolls of paper towels, cans, boxes, small appliances (food processors, mixers, blenders, breadmakers, standard size toaster ovens, toasters, waffle irons, etc.). The shallow depth doesn't allow you to store things too deep so things do not get lost. If you're concerned about organization, get bins or similar to organize smaller items on the shelves.

The problem with 24" deep pantry cabinets is that they are not particularly flexible, things get lost in the back and in the "middle" of the roll out tray shelves (especially those above your chest), and if you're not quite sure where something is, you have to open/close multiple drawers/roll out tray shelves looking for the item. In addition, you only have "access" to the internal height of the pantry cabinet - usually quite a bit less than floor-to-ceiling b/c of toekick and limited cabinet heights available, Oh, and they're expensive.

Layout #1:

Layout #1 Zone Map:

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Comments (16)

Buehl
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
The first thing we need is accurate measurements (or as accurate as you can be on a plan for a new build.) Since you said the "room size, windows, etc" cannot be changed, we need to know all the measurements - width of each wall/window/door/doorway and the distances b/w each wall/window/door/doorway. It would probably be easiest if you drew it up on graph paper, but labeling the above layout will work as well - just be sure the labels are dark enough and large enough to be readable.

Do you also have a picture of the entire floor so we can see how the Kitchen relates to all the rooms and how traffic will flow in, around, and through the Kitchen?
kayce03 thanked Buehl
Buehl
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Please check the following resources:

Layout Help - FAQ for asking for layout help. It has a sample measured layout as well as a description of the other information we need

Kitchen Design Best Practices/Guidelines threads - These threads explain best practices/good design guidelines for items such as work zones, aisles, island/peninsula seating, etc. These threads will help you understand questions/comments you will receive.

Read Me thread - Other, helpful information for using and navigating the Kitchens Forum. Especially useful if you are new to the Kitchens Forum!

.

New to Kitchens? Read Me First!

http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/4306041/new-to-kitchens-read-me-first

.

Layout Help:

How do I ask for Layout Help and what information should I include?
- http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2767033/how-do-i-ask-for-layout-help-and-what-information-should-i-include
.

Kitchen Design Best Practices/Guidelines threads:

Kitchen work zones, what are they?
- http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3638270/faq-kitchen-work-zones-what-are-they
Aisle widths, walkways, seating overhangs, work and landing space, and others
- http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3638304/faq-aisle-widths-walkways-seating-overhangs-work-landing-space-etc
How do I plan for storage? Types of Storage? What to Store Where?
- http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3638376/faq-how-do-i-plan-for-storage
Ice. Water. Stone. Fire (Looking for layout help? Memorize this first)
- http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2699918/looking-for-layout-help-memorize-this-first
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So, I took a look..and I do have some concerns, especially if you try to fit a 48"D island into your space. Your space just isn't wide enough to have that deep an island + decent aisles + space to move around the island. Even a 41.5"D island is marginal. A few things have to be taken into account in your design: (1) You definitely need to have enough room for multiple cooks: "We're a family of four. Two kids, one 5 and one 10. Wife and I both love to cook and share the responsibility equally. Kids will also help out in the kitchen and our oldest loves to bake by herself." This means your aisles really need to be a minimum of 48". It also means you need to have more than one place to prep and, preferably, a water source in at least two locations so you're not fighting over the sink. (Add in someone trying to cleanup or load/unload the DW while others are prepping/cooking, and you're asking for trouble -- especially when your kids are in preteen + teen! (Trust me on this!) (2) Busy traffic in the Kitchen. The Kitchen is in the middle of the path between the Family Room and the Dining Room and, I think, between the entrance (far left) and the rest of the house -- including the stairs that I assume go upstairs to the bedrooms. That area is going to be busy. So, You need adequate aisles to allow considerable traffic + table seating and considerable traffic + island seating. Do not skimp on aisle space (or seating space)! You need a minim of 48" between the island and anything behind the seats (e.g., the stairs). More would be better, but your Kitchen isn't deep enough. (3) Island configuration: Since you need the minimum aisle widths (48") around the island, you cannot fit a 48" deep island. Instead, have a 3 seats along the back and one on the side. Is it ideal, no, but it's better than most I've seen. Your island is then 41.5" deep: 1.5" counter overhang in the front + 24" deep base cabinet + 1" decorative door/end panel on the back of the base cabinets + 15" seating overhang = 41.5" In addition, each seats need 24" of linear space, so only one seat will fit on the 41.5" long side --and-- you cannot overlap seats on a corner, so even skimping on linear space won't work. For 3 seats, that means you need 72" (6'). Your minimum island needs to be 72"W x 41.5"D For your Kitchen size: From what I was able to calculate, it appears the longest part of your Kitchen is no more than 116" + 71" + 19.5" = 206.5" [Note: The 19.5" measurement might not be right, I had to base it on what I saw elsewhere b/c a couple of key measurements were missing on your layout.] The stairs encroach on that, so where the island ends, it's a bit less than 149" The minimum space you need is: 25.5" + 48" + 41.5" = 115" and then add in 33" to accommodate the needed the space b/w the stairs and island = 148" [Why 33" and not 48"? This can be a bit complicated...the stairs are on a diagonal, so a straight line measurement doesn't work. Instead, I had to work with rotated lines to calculate what was necessary to accommodate a 48-inch aisle. If it's too complicated or I didn't explain it well, don't worry about it...you'll see the results in the layouts.] . Layouts.... With all of the above in mind, I came up with two layouts -- I like #1 the best b/c I think it gives you the best functionality, more workspace, and a more open feel. Both have two Prep Zones: (1) in the island with a prep sink and (2) on the perimeter b/w the cleanup sink and range. As you can see, Layout #1 has more space b/w the range and cleanup sink. The sink run of counters and cabinets are 3" deeper than standard. This gives you more storage (especially dish storage) and and deeper workspace. It also pulls the sink 3" farther from the window and window sill so you can easily fit any faucet, clean behind it easier, and minimize window splashing -- without being too far from the window to open it. The base cabinets are 27" deep (If you cannot get deeper base cabinets or they're too expensive, pull standard depth base cabinets (24"D) out from the wall 3" when they're installed.) The upper cabinets are 15" deep (Most lines now offer 15" deep uppers for a reasonable price) The deeper uppers also provide better storage for deeper items like platters or large dinner plates. The counter is 28.5" deep The deeper cabinets & counter also allow you to have a Dish Hutch. A Dish Hutch has a lot more storage than a standard base + upper setup. The upper goes down to the counter and, allows you to utilize the entire height for dishes, glasses, etc. In your layout, it's a 27" wide Dish Hutch. (That means you have an additional 27"W x 18" tall x 15"D = 7,290 cubic inches (about 4.2 cubic feet) of storage.) Other items: The island has a prep sink so the island can function as a Prep Zone (key Prep Zone items are water and counterspace). There's still plenty of open space for baking, doing homework, science projects, crafts, wrapping gifts, etc. The island also seats four people comfortably. Dish storage and the Cleanup Zone are outside the Prep and Cooking Zones -- allowing you to have multiple people working in the Kitchen -- prepping, cooking, baking, cleaning up, unloading the DW, setting the table, etc. -- without getting in each others' way. The MW is on the long counter at the "bottom" of the Kitchen. That space also makes a nice Snack/Tea/Coffee Center and, if necessary, a "tertiary" Prep Zone. While there isn't direct access to water, it can be used in a pinch for prepping. That long space also has additional storage space for pantry items or other needs. I suggest building up the half-wall b/w the Family Room and the Kitchen to at least 42" tall to allow a bit of separation and to block a direct view of the MW (assuming you put it there -- that seems to be the best location. It's at a usable height and has room around it for landing space. The both have a full-height 18" pullout pantry and, in front of the furnace exhaust bumpout, a full-height shelved pantry cabinet 18"W x 9"D. A lot will fit in that 9" deep pantry cabinet! Layout #2 has a 9" Utility cabinet (or another pantry cabinet). The Dining Room In Layout #1 has a partial banquette style -- one long side and one short side are in the corner. The other seats are chairs. It easily seats up to 6. If you have leaves, you might be able to squeeze in a couple more seats, but only if/when really needed b/c it will create aisle/traffic issues. There is plenty of space around the table for seat access. This layout allows you to move the Refrigerator to the other side of the furnace exhaust bumpout. This frees up space to the right for needed counterspace. (This is the primary reason I prefer this layout. It's worth losing the 9" wide utility cabinet -- at least to me.) In Layout #2, the Refrigerator will not fit on the left of the furnace exhaust bumpout, so the amount of counterspace around the range is significantly reduced. To fit the table, there are minimal aisles on the left (36") and top (35"). However, they are not "through aisles", so they should be OK. You'll have to do a bit of squeezing, but with only 4 people, it won't be bad. The important aisles are wide enough. Here they are: Layout #1: Layout #1's Zone Map: . . Layout #2 Layout #2's Zone Map:
...See More
kayce03
Original Author
6 years ago
Ok let me try this again. :)

Our floor plan is below. The house is pretty set. Our outdoor space is still in flux (will probably get a bit smaller).

The kitchen/dining wall is 320" (interior measurement). 17.5' of that is the great room width, 9' is the dining. The island is 10'. There is 4' between the island and the main line of cabinets. 4' between the island and the window wall on the left. 7.5' between the island and the living room. 7.5' from the island to the dining table.
User
6 years ago
So, a 150-250K kitchen in a 1M+ house? You can do MUCH better than what your draftsman has inflicted on you for the house. Kitchen too.
cheri127
6 years ago
I can recommend from experience that you'll be better off with the sink in the same run as the stove. The cook spends more time prepping than anything else, and that's best done at the island facing children/guests. Architects LOVE to put the clean up sink in the island for some reason!

Another thing that's nice to have is seating at the short side of the island so everyone isn't in a line. Not always possible, but it looks like you could do it at the dining room side.
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Buehl
6 years ago
Here are the dimensions we need...
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kayce03
Original Author
6 years ago
cheri127 - In defense of our architect, we were the ones who originally suggested the sink be in the island. My husband likes the look, but I agree with you that it's not very practical for how people actually cook.

buehl - thank you for your patience with me! Here are the numbers (below). Looking at it, I had forgotten that the we had to make the dining room longer for structural reasons. It's now bigger than the kitchen! Would it make sense to move the kitchen there? I floated this idea to my husband and he shook his head at me. I keep making last minute changes, but better now than in the middle of construction, right?

A - 6’

B - 9'

C - 3'

D, E, F (these windows can change) - 19'

G - 26’8"

H - 4'

I - 4'

J - 5’6"

K - 16’6”

L - 31’2"

M - 19’

N - 12’2"
rantontoo
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
If you move kitchen to dining room, it make the walk bringing in groceries longer; and it is already a good walk from the garage.?
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Buehl
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Personally, I prefer the configuration as-is. I like having the DR off to one side with the Family Room off of another side -- both rooms have direct access to the Kitchen.

I also like a Dining Room with windows! The way this house is arranged, you should have plenty of light in both the Dining Room and Kitchen with nice big windows on two walls in the Dining Room.
I think that if you moved the Kitchen to the DR, you would have to reduce the size of the windows to accommodate cabinets on that wall - they'd have to be raised to 36" off the floor. You might also have to reduce the size of the sliding door.

Plus, Rantontoo has a good point - it looks like it's already going to be a hike to bring groceries in from the garage, so don't make it worse! Ideally, the garage should be closer to the Kitchen for just that reason.

.

A couple of more things:

Pantry...I'm really surprised this house does not have a walk-in/step-in/reach-in pantry. However, if the walls are already final, I guess it would be difficult to fix that oversight. Would you be willing to take some of the window-less wall that spans the Kitchen & Dining Room for a reach-in pantry? They're so much more useful than pantry cabinets - and a lot less expensive! Hmmm...that would increase the distance you have to walk to get groceries to the pantry...but, I'd consider it a fair tradeoff.

Mudrooom + Laundry Room...First, your "Mudroom" isn't really useful in it's current location, it should be closer to the garage - in fact it really should be just off the garage. Second, if you intend your Mudroom to be used by anyone other than immediate family, then it's not a good idea to put your Laundry Room in the same location - having guests, even close friends and other family members, walk past your dirty (and clean) laundry is not pleasant. I like that the Laundry Room is close to the Master Bedroom/Bathroom, but not combined with a "public" Mudroom, if it is "public".
kayce03 thanked Buehl
Buehl
6 years ago
OK - here's a blank slate...layout TBD! I'll work on a layout next, but in case anyone else wants to also work on it, I'm posting the "blank slate".

(1 square = 6" x 6")

.
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kayce03
Original Author
6 years ago
Thank you again, buehl!

I can see that the garage placement seems strange to folks, but it really makes sense for how we live and spinning it off the house allowed us to maximize our views and southern exposure. This will actually be our first house with a garage! They're not super common here. Likewise, neither are mudrooms. What we have labeled as "mudroom" really is more for storage and dumping sandy clothes (we're in Hawai`i).

Pantry - our earlier drafts had a walk-in pantry! I asked to give that space back to the master. It's the smaller closet. Pardon my ignorance, but what's the difference between a reach-in and cabinets? We had a walk-in a couple of houses ago, and I found that it ended up being a disorganized dumping ground. Our last house had a cabinet with pull outs and I liked that much better. I can see all the things in the back!

The more I stare at this, the more I think it's not going to be possible to move the sink out of the island. Would it be strange to have it offset? My husband dislikes the asymettry.

From my original post, I think we can get rid of the 24" cabinet for microwave and coffee.
Buehl
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
You do realize that the Cluny range + refrigerator/freezer columns will take up over 8'9" (105") of space, right? That's a lot of space to devote to just two appliances (3 if you count the Refrigerator & Freezer as separate) - especially since you don't have that big a house (only 2700 sq ft).

55.5" + 24" + 2" + 24" = 105.5"

(Alcove space needed for a Cluny 1400 is 55.5".

2" filler b/w refrigerator & freezer column sometimes needed.)

Plus, you want several other appliances - all of which will take away from your available cabinet storage space! Not all things store well in a pantry - e.g., your pots & pans, mixing bowls, etc.

Do you really need a 55+" range?

Your layout shows a 48" range, not 55". While even 48" is wide, I think it would be better than 55+".

I'm trying to figure out how to give you everything you asked for in the available space!

.

.

If you put your sink in the island, it would much better to offset it. Centering it would reduce your prep space and, in effect, waste space.

Something else to consider...putting your Cleanup Zone in the island puts your dirty dishes front & center and on display for all to see. Personally, I would not want to be highlighting my dirty dishes!

However, if it's b/w the sink and range, it's better to have the sink in the island.

Ideally, I would have a prep sink in the island and the cleanup sink and range on the wall.
kayce03 thanked Buehl
kayce03
Original Author
6 years ago
buehl - I know you're right. What if I shrink the range down to the Savigny? It's 43 1/2". You can also eliminate the bookshelf space.
kayce03
Original Author
6 years ago
buehl - this is amazing. I have to process it all. Thank you so much!
Buehl
6 years ago
(Refresh the page - I added additional information.)
kayce03 thanked Buehl

New build kitchen layout advice needed

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