Thanks for the response. Helpful as yours always are.

On the subject of king size comforters and quilts, I just picked out king-sized down comforters as a kind of worst case scenario. I think it was Stacy T who was asking about king-sized quilts in her thread about Miele washers. I don't have any large quilts and the largest down comforter I have is only queen-sized.

I have been leaning towards the Bosch 500 model for many of the reasons you've detailed here and in your many helpful posts in other threads plus the fact that Bosch washers are the only compact models that local sellers carry in stock. Presently, the 500 series seem to be in short supply, at least here in darkest Montana. I asked about cycles in the possible alternative choices on the off chance that my old washer might suddenly and unexpectedly fail leaving me needing a quick replacement. Right now, local stock on hand would be limited to a few Bosch 300 units plus a floor model of the basic Miele W1 and another of the Electrolux compact. Hence, my question about which, if any, of their various cycles could be used for a bulky-item. Another worst case scenario question.

Now that you are here, I did think of another question. You mentioned washing towels on a long cycle at 170°F. How long is "long" and is Bosch's SpeedPerfect function worth engaging for a speedier hot wash of towels?

I looked at the Bosch very carefully and didn't go with the 300. Trying to remember why not but there was something missing -- just cannot recall what. Also looked at the 800 but it seemed to have only one more feature than the 500 which was not germane to actual laundry and didn't feel it was worth the additional cost.

There is a bulky items setting on the 500. I used it for my queen bed pad which came out very well. It's quite thick and certainly equivalent to a medium bulky quilt/comforter.

The towels cycle is 2 hours plus and washes on extra hot (170F). I've used it once. Mainly I use light soil cottons and that is about 48 minutes on extra hot, a few minutes less on hot (140F). Usig it for towels as I type. No need for that towels cycle unless there was a very big load or they had been used to get mud off kids or something of that nature.

My compact FL is not one of those brands, but I also cannot use chlorine bleach, and that's not a problem for me. I rarely used it before, and now I find the very hot wash to be enough in those rare circumstances.. (My machine has a 200F level, but I usually use the 140F level as sufficient.) I find the speed of the cycle is in the temperature of the water - the hotter it has to be, the more time it takes, since most of the cycle time is in heating the water.

Chlorine beach is a chemical alternative to using very hot water. It won't really remove a stain as much as it bleaches out the color of the stain. The hot water actual does a better job since it works to remove the stain and not just decolorize it.

Chlorine is also an oxidizer which will cause acelerated damage to steel and aluminum. Chlorine will also attack different types of rubbers/polymers and degrade them.

Some people will say bleach provides sanitation but hot water above 160F for an extended period will also work well.

i would think that a King Comforter would fit in any of those units for washing. The water would filter through the cloth to clean it. Drying is another matter as the dryer wouldn't have enough drum area to loft the quilt. You would be constantly opening the door and re configuring the quilt.

say no to liquid bleach. hot water, oxiclean and detergent gets white white. bleach is very corrosive and literally gets on everything

the drain extenders may be for horizontal distance, not vertical height. How tall is the standpipe?

Regarding comforters, my question wasn't whether one would fit or could be washed but, rather, what cycle or program to use if I were to get one of the compact FL washer models that do not offer a "bulky" cycle or duvet program? Oh, and FWIW, full size dryers aren't a problem in my basement laundry area. It's just the washer for which there is a space restriction.

In answer to your question about the drain extender -- yes, the drain hose extender would be only for horizontal distance.

Regarding the height of the standpipe drain: the lip is 70 inches above the basement floor. Reason for the height is the height of sewer lines that were installed 110 years ago when the house was built. (That height is why there is a Saniflo pump for the laundry sink.) Not feasible to cut that standpipe much, let alone shorten it down anywhere even close to the 1 meter/39 inch max height for Bosch and Miele washer drains. Laundry sink lip is 35½ inches, so within the height spec for draining those washers.

What prompted my question about anybody using a horizontal extension was the response I got from calling Bosch (twice) and Electrolux technical support. They basically told me that they had no information on horizontal extensions, that I could try one at my own risk and that it might void the washer warranty if it didn't work. (Actually, the first tech I spoke with at Bosch flat out told me that it was forbidden --- because not expressly allowed in the install instructions --- so even trying it would absolutely void the washer warranty!) Seems like a short horizontal extension should be fine but those responses caused me some concern.

Jakvis -- I agree that "hot water above 160F for an extended period will also work well." That's one of the abilities of the Bosch 500 model and the Miele models that make them seem attractive.

I was inquiring more about the Bosch 300 and Electrolux models as their programming doesn't go above 140°/60°C. (Maybe that's the something that Roco found missing when she was checking out the 300 series Bosch?)

Anyway, testing by the British publication, Which? (the UK equivalent to Consumer Reports) found that the 60°C/140°F cycle on Bosch washers actually barely got to 131° and only for 3 to 4 minutes on the 60°C cotton whites setting. Apparently, there is a lot of slop in the EU labeling requirements. Link to the Which? article is here for anybody interested in this somewhat esoteric question. I just wondered if anybody here had actually run into any problems with the lesser heat level of those models.

You might also want to consider the GE GNW128SSMWW compact top-loader with greater capacity than most (all?) of the compact front loaders. Its footprint (it's 24" wide) is about the same as compact front-loaders. It has a bleach dispenser. According to the installation instructions, the standpipe for the drain must be between 30" and 8' above the base of the washer. GE sells an optional, longer drain hose for the washer. $769 at Home Depot vs $1129 for the Bosch 500.

I appreciate your going to the effort of digging that up, but I've tried to focus the questions pretty narrowly on a few models of compact FL washers with on-board water heaters.

For anybody with questions about the relative merits (and perceived merits) of front loaders versus top-loaders, let me refer you to the dozens of sometimes very passionate prior threads that already cover all possible aspects of front versus top loaders. As I've already read them, there is no need to repeat those discussions for me here.

It does seem I may have created some other mis-impressions. I would like to correct them.

First, I did not mean to imply I somehow could not or would not buy a washer that did not have a bleach dispenser. I tried to frame a pretty narrow question about whether anybody had run into problems with the Bosch washer whose hottest cycle was 140°F versus the other models which have 170°F sanitize cycles.

Second, for anybody who needs or prefers to use chlorine bleach, let me say that most compact FL washers allow it and do have bleach dispensers. AFAIK, it is only Bosch and Gorneje-Asko machines that do not. .

Third, I seem to have implied that washer capacity was an issue for me. Let me make it clear that I believe that any of the washers I mentioned can take in and wash any load I might have. My old Frigidaire is only slightly larger than current compact models. My current regular loads only fill half-way to two thirds of the drum as it is. I am not worried about drum capacity on the models I am researching.

To repeat what I just said above, my concern was whether the more basic (and less expensive) compact FL models have a cycle that can substitute for the specialized bulky or down programs on the other models,

Finally, if I failed to mention somebody's favorite brand of compact FL -- such as GE/Samsung, Asko and Blomberg --- it is that (a) nobody locally has any on display; (b) they have very long wait times for fulfilling special orders from the sellers in in my area; and (c) they seem to have either no local warranty support or support with a poor reputation. I apologize if anybody feels I've slighted or overlooked a favored brand by focusing on what I think are my reasonably available choices.

"Some people will say bleach provides sanitation but hot water above 160F for an extended period will also work well."

Hot water >160F for 24 minutes will kill most pathogens unless you are dealing with Clostridium Difficile and it has the ability to sporulate and is resistant. You would need to use or add chemicals. I know several people who have had to deal with it.

You have to look at each one for specific directIons. Many involve liquid chlorine bleach. It has been the standard.

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2017-01/documents/20172701.listk_.pdf

", if I failed to mention somebody's favorite brand of compact FL"

That might be me, but (if so) no problem. I have a Gorenje; it's the brand I chose for various reasons, but I would never catagorize it as a "favourite". It's new in Canada, and I hope it works out well. So far, so good (LOL - it's only been a few months).

For me, service is also an important component of any brand. Another aspect to consider.

Honestly, the amount of time and energy to make a good decision about a washer/dryer is a bit ridiculous. I think it's easier to buy a car.

@jwvideo - you have nothing to apologize for!! You are here to get real-time user info. I know it gets a bit brand-o-rama but if you are not buying what someone else has no worries. But you know that.

If you are still considering a Miele I would say this. While the compact is pretty near double the cost of any of the competitors, it does things the others don't. F.ex. with bulky items, there are sensors that kick in and will automatically add water. Even if you choose the least optimal cycle on a Miele the machine is designed to compensate. Also, Miele has technical service where their guys bring a laptop that does the diagnostics from the chip. No sense in buying Miele, f.ex. if their factory service is not available where you live. From long experience I will tell you that any other service but Miele's isn't workable with their products. No diagnostics.

That's not a factor with the others.

I set out to buy Electrolux. The pair was very well priced and reviews here were favorable. The machine has a heater and gets to temperature according to users. But my set up was quirky -- only one outlet. So I had to go with a f/l washer that plugs into the dryer. That meant Bosch or Asko, both of which I'd owned before. Asko isn't a machine I would buy again even though they are serviced/repped by Wolf.

With the current Bosch f/l design, it's not possible to gauge the actual temperature in the machine as there is a double door likely meant to keep little hands from being burned. My whites get very white so I know it is hot enough. But I woudn't vouch for any exact temperature -- unlike Miele which can be verified easily -- with Bosch. Need to remember to pause an "extra hot" load and stick my instant read thermometer in the drum.

@H Seattle - I owned an Asko pair in our weekend house. It had a very short life. I did like the high heat, no question. However, there were other serious issues. The machine has a very low later level and no sensors. So washing a queen quilt was a nightmare. It never got fully saturated and had to be done three times and then the result was marginal at best.

The controller board broke and could not be repaired or replaced. Asko has a cold water intake (or did with mine) which then gets heated. Result was only long cold washes.

Additionally, the delicate, permanent press and other low cycles never worked on the Asko. The machine was replaced and those same cycles never worked on the new one. They told me there was an issue with my electricity. However, there was not. It was normal. The issue was with the machine.

For me, bottom line was that I was rarely using boil washes, which I recall as 205F and I rarely needed the next hottest 190F wash either. There was a lot of wear on my towels because modern textiles don't stand up to those intense temperatures very well I found.

Mainly, I use 125F washes, 140F washes and an occasional hotter one. With the Miele 158F was hot enough to remove set stains and whitened very well.

So while the capability is there it was not offset IMO by the very low water level and lack of sensors. Machines which don't have sensors (many do not) need higher water levels and some adjustability.

What's more, the Asko machine had something like a 4 year life in a weekend house where it wasn't even used very often.

This may not line up with experience others have but this was mine. In contrast, the previous Bosch didn't have the water heater but otherwise did a good job. My new one does.

>>>" Honestly, the amount of time and energy to make a good decision about a washer/dryer is a bit ridiculous. I think it's easier to buy a car."<<<

Indeed.

Are planning on stacking the set? You could put the washer on a pedestal to get it up to proper height for pump to work as designed.

I have 3 different Miele washer dryer sets. The w3033, and 2 w1918 sets. I never use bleach but the w3033 states bleach can be used. The old w1918 states to not use bleach iirc. One of my 1918 washes gets to 190f, and I use that for my towels that DH gets greasy and grimy with farm work. They get very white. The other w1918 gets to 170.

My machines handle a queen sized down or medium quilt. I don’t wash these often. For Down I use down wash liquid soap. It’s been a few years. I probably used warm wash 104f. The w3033 has a Pillows cycle & can do warm, very warm (122), & hot (140).

Do you/did you wash the quilts and comforters in w1918 washers? The only cycle choices are cottons, perm press, woolens and delicates, right? Nothing designated for bulky, down, duvet, or pillows, right? So, what cycle(s) do you/did you use for the comforters and quilts (or other large and bulky single items) in the w1918 washers?

Not looking for a set, just a washer when it comes time. (As mentioned above, the dryer space is fine for anything I want to put in there. (Full size vented dryer in there now and no need to replace it in the foreseeable future.) With washer and dryer being in the basement, I do not care if they do or do not match.

Already looked at pedestals before posting but, unfortunately, they won't work for my laundry room. The off-the-shelf ones available from Bosch and Miele still leave the machine a foot too low to drain into my basement's tall standpipe drain. Pedestals are not even available for the Electrolux EFLS210 --- Electrolux has withdrawn them from the market. Hence my question about using a short horizontal hose extension to reach the laundry sink at the other end of the room.

"The ones available from Bosch and Miele still leave the machine a foot
too low to to drain into my basement's tall standpipe drain. Pedestals
are not even available for the Electrolux EFLS210 -"

The "pedestals" are really just plinths to raise the machine - there's nothing magical about them other than they need to be sturdy enough for the weight and movement of the machine. You could have one made, make your own, or use something else (like an old, strong coffee table) instead. There are lots of DIY plans on line.

LOL. Height of the standpipe would require a 30" tall plinth. Can you picture a washing machine running on top of a dining room table?. ;>)

Can't imagine why a Bosch or Electrolux would be unable to work with a short horizontal drain extension, but if somebody can point to real problems with that on those models, then I'll just pay extra for a Miele for which there are no qualms about extending the length of the drain hose.

" LOL. Height of the standpipe would require a 30" tall plinth. Can you picture a washing machine running on top of a dining room table?. ;>) "

Yikes! At that height they'd be difficult to use, too.

I washed a comforter in the 1918 without problem. I think I washed an 80 year old quilt in it too. But used delicate. Delicate was fine.

Regarding the stand pipe, I guess you guys got me there. I didn't pay attention to the height, LOL. You could build yourself a laundry mezzanine ;)

Totally serious here, it sounds like a ha-ha moment but it's not: if need be, you could build a mold out of wood boards to pour concrete into to create a higher platform for the washer to sit on, then if needed, use some metal straps to secure the washer to the wall. I know it sounds silly, but sometimes you have to do what you have to do. Our house is older too and we have had to do some creative things around here that only make sense when you think on it for a while factoring age limitations in.

Anyhow, assuming your floor in the basement is not floating, but slab or similar, it just might raise you up enough for the drain pipe while remaining steady with no bounce if on a concrete raised pad. You could have a step stool situation to access the washer if you are now so high up reaching inside the machine is a challenge.

The mental visual is humorous, but hey, sometimes life is weird.

Disclosure: I am not a contractor, engineer or handy with machinery. Just used to thinking outside the box to have what I want in an older and cantankerous house.

" The mental visual is humorous, but hey, sometimes life is weird. "

Good one, Sea Sea.

I'm laughing so hard I can hardly see to type. Maybe somebody else will suggest draining the washer into a bucket -- after all, FL washers don't much use water, do they?

Okay, I'm better now.

Have I maybe made this seem way more complicated that it needs to be?.

Here is how simple it is: there is no problem draining the washer if a washer's pumps are too weak to reach up to the standpipe in my basement. My basement already has a Saniflo watewater pump. It is designed specifically for laundry plumbing located in basements with drains below the grade of the sewer outflow line. (These are a standard plumbing practice, too.)

The problem is how do I get from a new washer's drain over to the drain pump? Can I just extend the flexible drain hose to hook onto the laundry sink (which the Saniflow pump handles) Or, must I go to the time and expense and hassle of plumbing in new rigid piping for a drain line that will run from the wall behind the washer over to the inlet plumbing for the pump?. Extending the drain hose is far cheaper and easier. Miele had no problem with this, although they would like me to pay them $28 plus shipping to get one of their beautiful (if highly over-engineered) hose extensions. Maybe it would be easier to grasp if I rephrased my question --- was I just getting the corporate run-around from customer service at Bosch and Elctrolux because I asked a question that was not in their scripts?

Let me take a different shot at this.

1. There's a $10 solution. That is adding a few inches of additional flexible hose to stretch the OEM drain hose to reach the present laundry sink and wastewater pump.

2. Then there is a $200 solution. That is the somewhat onerous process of plumbing some drain pipe (rather than drain hose) to accomplish the same thing without apparently raising any possible warranty concerns. For that kind of time and money, I might also just plug in another Saniflo pump to take a Bosch or Electrolux washer's drain into the tall standpipe. (Which, btw, about covers the cost difference between a Bosch 500 and the basic Miele w1.)

3. Then there are more expensive major projects like large concrete piers or massive reinforced plinths.

Really, I'm only asking why I should not be able to use the $10 solution even if Bosch and Electrolux refuse to either allow it or oppose it?

enduring --

Thanks for explaining how Miele washers can do quilts and comforters on a "delicates" cycle. Maybe that exemplifies Rococogurl's point that "Even if you choose the least optimal cycle on a Miele the machine is designed to compensate" with additional water and balance management and etc?

Glad you got a chuckle. I did too. :) Suggestion was in reference to I believe it was voiding warranty on Bosch models (?) Wouldn't want to do that.

We don't have basements in this part of the country, so this isn't an issue over here, but I have seen a set up like above mentioned in Ohio in a 100+ year old house, which at the time seemed rather bizarre to me. I was told it was due to plumbing being installed before modern appliances existed and they had to improvise.

Hope you get it all sorted out before your present washer is out of life. Sounds like you will.

You know that your washer will only fail when you aren't prepared to deal with it? This exercise has probably added a decade to the life of my old Frigidaire. :>)

Agree.

You are good for a long time now :)