I am curious -- why do you even want this house at this point, knowing full well that lead and nitrate levels in the water are high?

What I'm having a hard time finding FHA, however, is whether or not installing one RO under the sink, will satisfy their requirement with regard to clean , safe

I have told you twice where to find the answer to your question. The FHA mortgagee letter very clearly addresses the number of treatment points needed in each situation.

Since it is a pdf I can't link right to it, but use a search engine, I recommend Google, and read the letter yourself. It took me maybe four minutes to read the entire thing. I could absolutely copy and paste.the text here, but I am not going to. The entire letter is like 4 pages long using government margins. If you dumped it into normal margins and spacing it is like a page and a half. Go read it and quit asking us to chew your food for you.

After you read it address questions to your FHA originator for clarification.

@mzk3: all I have is a financing contingency. The only way i can get out of it (or preferably talk the sellers into at least helping me resolve) if I'm able to find a something iin FHA or Fannie me backing me up that one source of clean water is not sufficient

@bry911...I read the FHA document you specified. Just like the others, it is not specific enough as to whether or not the one source of clean water is sufficient.

Are you working with a realtor? If so, s/he should be going to bat for you if you want out - and hopefully get out of this if you want to because the water isn't safe to drink as-is. Even if for some reason you can't get out of it w/o losing your earnest money, how much would you stand to lose? Is not losing that money worth risking your health and the health of your family? Only you can answer that.

I hope everyone reading this learns a lesson: If well and/or septic, you *need* to have a contingency in the contract that covers these.

FFA =

For properties that are served by wells, FHA loan rules now say, “When an Individual Water Supply System is present, the Mortgagee must ensure that the water quality meets the requirements of the health authority with jurisdiction. If there are no local (or state) water quality standards, then water quality must meet the standards set by the EPA, as presented in the National Primary Drinking Water regulations in 40 CFR 141 and 142.”

Have fun with all of that paperwork and dealing with the government.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/40/part-141

Again I would not walk away.. I would run..

I read the FHA document you specified. Just like the others, it is not specific enough as to whether or not the one source of clean water is sufficient.

From mortgages letter 92-18 on page 3 [emphasis mine]...

If "point-of-use" equipment is used, a water
purification unit must be employed on each water supply
source (inside and outside faucet) serving the
property. (If a "point-of entry" system is used, a
separate water supply system carrying untreated water
for flushing toilets may be used);

If you don't understand the meaning of the quoted text, then you should not be crowd sourcing your real estate advice. You need qualified and experienced assistance. I am reluctant to even give you the information I have as I fear you are certain to misunderstand and misuse it.

I may as well be working without an agent as he has been no help. I appreciate this so much. If you have anything else, I beg you to share.

Ask the lender to refuse the loan.

So, let's clear up a few things:

What does "failed well tests for Nitrates and lead" mean? What exactly are the numbers?

1. Assuming the well doesn't have naturally occurring lead, then the lead is coming from the pipes. The solution to that is to replace the pipes that are lead or brass. You can have a R/O unit under the kitchen sink, but by definition you can't have a whole house R/O unit because the lead is coming from the pipes. There are other reasons whole house R/O is problematic - but this first issue just rules out any additional consideration.

2. There are some specially designed filters that reduce lead - but again you could only install them at the point of use because the lead is coming from the pipes and fixtures. Good luck with those filters btw - getting clear, third party certification is difficult. A water softener will not remove lead or nitrates.

4. Nitrates are found in the groundwater or surface water and are often present in agricultural areas (and not a result of the plumbing). They come from fertilizers and livestock manure. The typical way to deal with nitrates is R/O on the drinking water.

3. As others have pointed out, you can't force the seller to do anything. Likewise the seller can't just unilaterally declare the problem solved by a R/O unit under the sink. Assuming purchase agreements that I'm familiar with, both parties will negotiate what remediation is required. If you can't come to an agreement, the deal is dead and your earnest money will be returned. The purchase agreement was contingent upon satisfactory remediation of material defects discovered in the inspection.

Here's a tidbit though: Now that the seller and realtor know of this material defect - they are required to reveal it to any potential buyer. They can't "not tell" a prospective buyer that the well is contaminated with nitrates AND the water at the tap is exceeding lead levels. It will be very hard to move the house when you say "lead in water".

Here's what I would do:

-Have the water tested at the outlet of the well for lead. If the well itself has lead - walk away.

-If the well itself does not have lead, but samples taken at the tap do, then I would tell them to replace the necessary pipes / fixtures to get the lead level below action levels. No other remediation is acceptable.

As for nitrates, that's coming from the well. They will need to provide a R/O filter under the kitchen sink for cooking and drinking.

If these remediation steps aren't agreeable - remind them that they will have to disclose the defect and nobody else is going to buy it with lead contamination. If they still won't, then walk away from the deal.

But won't an ro system under the sink also remove lead?

And iif something, anything, can remove the lead, why walk away even if the source is the well and not the pipes?

And why replace the pipes if an RO system would remove the lead?

.029 lead / 12.1 nitratenitrate and nitrate alone listed at 12.1

Yes, an R/O unit under the kitchen sink will remove lead for cooking / drinking at that faucet. But as you previously pointed out, what about the bathroom sink or when they drink out of the hose, etc.

The EPA action level for lead in drinking water is 15 parts per billion. What is the .029 number?

The EPA maximum contaminate level for nitrate is 10 mg / L or 10 ppm I assume the 12.1 is ppm. An R/O unit under the kitchen sink would solve that problem.

Micrograms / L

Also do you know anything about whole house nitrate filters? Ty!

Stop even thinking of solutions of lead etc. until you know what the source is. Doing so could be making a problem that does not exist. If the water at the wellhead has high lead you have one problem and there are solutions to that. However if the water is from the pipes your problem is that the pipes are corroded on the inside and are likely to fail. No RO system will do anything other than be an expensive temporary solution when the solution if it is the pipes is to replace the pipes. Depending on your area the pipes may be more or less that the cost of a temporary RO system.

So at .029 micrograms per liter you are roughly 29 ppb which is significantly over the action level for lead.

Again, assuming that the plumbing is the source (an assumption you have to test), the solution is to replace the plumbing that is causing the problem. There isn't a workable filter solution for lead in the water throughout the house. Just filtering the kitchen drinking water isn't a solution.

R/O units are expensive - they require significant maintenance and they provide relatively low flow - so installing one for the shower / bath isn't really an option. You could re-plumb the house less expensively.

An R/O unit for under the kitchen sink to provide drinking / cooking water without nitrates is a workable solution for the nitrates.

Ask them to test the well for lead. Tell them that your acceptable remediation for the lead in the water is for them to replace the plumbing that is causing the lead throughout the house until lead readings are below the EPA action level at all faucets.

Tell them that the acceptable remediation of nitrates is a R/O unit for drinking / cooking water in the kitchen.

Again, remind them that they are required to disclose these defects to any potential buyer and are likely to have the same remediation requirements from any potential purchaser. Even someone without kids is unlikely to want to purchase a house that they potentially can't sell in the future without expensive remediation.

If they don't agree, walk away.

Thank you so much!

Why this property? While you are under no obligation to explain this to us, I would really like to know what makes this property so special. If your area commonly has to deal with water quality issues, then this might be something buyers in your area are fairly used to.

remind them that they are required to disclose these defects to any potential buyer and are likely to have the same remediation requirements from any potential purchaser. Even someone without kids is unlikely to want to purchase a house that they potentially can't sell in the future without expensive remediation.

The same goes for the buyer though. After the purchase you are going to own all the issues on your inspection report that were not completely remedied prior to closing. So if this issue wasn't disclosed by the current seller, the house was marketed and priced without this significant defect, something that you are not going to be able to repeat in the future. You are going to have to disclose these issues to potential buyers and that is going to deter many buyers.

Consider the number of people who have advised you to walk away from this deal on this very thread. That is about the same percentage of potential buyers that are going to walk away from the house once you go to sell it.

This may be an incredible house, but you need to make sure that you are this committed to the house and not the deal you have going. I see a lot of people who get so invested in the life that have visualized living somewhere that they are blinded to the overall implications. Don't do that.

bry911

I agree with what you are saying. The lead issue has to be dealt with and (assuming it's not the well itself) the only way to do that is replace the plumbing that's causing the problem. The problem is going to be specific to that property.

Nitrates on the other hand are going to be a "regional" problem for any home on a well in a given area.

The OP doesn't want to purchase a house that hasn't had the lead issue resolved - Otherwise she's left holding the bag when she wants to sell.

The nitrates are a different matter. A R/O in the kitchen is the proper remediation and it's going to be a common problem unless municipal water is available.

jane__ny

Googling "can nitrate in water be absorbed through the skin" - as in bathing and showering and the answer is "No". Babies and children can be bathed in water contaminated with nitrate. It's only a concern for ingestion. Ingesting small amounts isn't a concern (brushing teeth, etc).

Jake

I am from an area that is largely agricultural and have a little understanding of the significance of nitrates and well water. However, in my area a lot of rural properties will have municipal water. Additionally, suburban development is driving up the land prices in my area, it isn't farmers buying 50 acres to farm, it is urbanites escaping the city.

Because of this, pricing properties can get a bit weird. Simply putting the line "____________ city water available" will drastically increase the selling price of the property there. However, when land prices go up, they tend to bring up the price of surrounding land, and you end up with well water properties that are valued rather high, but move rather slow.

Complicated issue that I'd rather not go into detail here. The house is a great house in a fantastic neighborhood. But we are dealing with circumstances that don't make it so easy to negotiate. I am doing my best to save my baby from the health issues and will deal with the consequences if the Sellers don't want to negotiate. This is not ok but it is fixable. Its just a matter of how much will it cost to fix. Not an ideal situation but one I'm now forced to deal with one way or another. I really appreciate the information, time and advice everyone has provided. I never imagined I would get so many responses. Because of you I have taken this to another level and have things in the works. Fingers crossed things will work out so that we are not too negatively impacted.

Another solution is to say: Agree on 3 legit bids to re-plumb the house including fixtures. Tell them you want the amount of the middle bid in cash at the closing in addition to the cost of the R/O unit. Insist on the middle bid because you can't come back to them for more money if you run into a problem.

That way they don't have to deal with the re-plumb, just pay for it.

ONLY do this if the well checks out.

Then you will have to go through getting it re-plumbed but it won't hold up closing.

No easy way to find out if the plumbing is the problem I don't think but literally cutting through the drywall, right? I like your idea though.

Lead comes only from 2 places:

1. It's in the source of the water (the well)

2. It's from the plumbing (lead pipes, brass with high lead content, copper joined with solder containing lead)

Of those two places, the most common is the plumbing. You must have the water coming out of the well tested.

You do not want this property - no matter what -- if the water in the well contains lead. The only exception to this statement is if there is municipal water available now and they just haven't connected to it.

Again - You must test the well itself, and do not buy this property if the well has lead.

Assuming the well is not contaminated, you will then probably have to re-pipe the entire house unless you can identify a specific source for the lead (such as a lead pipe from the well to the house, for example).

What is the age of the house?

I agree with Jake. You have a non-specific well test (there is a lot more to look at than just lead and nitrates) and you don't know where the water was sampled (inside or outside). A whole-house R/O system would be expensive, and unnecessary if the source of the lead is the inside pipes.

I"m told that if they install a whole house, although it would not eliminate the lead, it will lower the levels to such a low level that more than likely, any lead in the pipes would not make a huge difference. Does that sound right?

abnik

No, you are not thinking about this correctly at all.

You need to get that well tested. Period.

Lead comes from 1 of 2 places - the well or the plumbing. The overwhelmingly most common source is the plumbing.

That means that you can't run R/O water through that pluming or it will also be contaminated.

What's more, R/O water is aggressive and is usually piped only through plastic pipe because it will leach metal that it comes in contact with. There are ways to reduce this - but any plan that runs R/O water though your existing plumbing is not a workable plan.

The cost of a whole house R/O unit is probably more - perhaps much more -- than the cost of just re-plumbing the house.

What's more, it will require expensive ongoing maintenance and it will use A LOT of water to produce the filtered water.

If you can't think clearly about this because you are too emotionally invested in the house then you need to stop. Seriously. This is all too much money, too much risk, and too many unknowns for you to not be very methodical about this. If you feel like you can't walk away from this house then you need to walk away - or you will make a bad decision.

If your fix for lead is an RO system rather than replacing the entire plumbing system..

Well enjoy your lead.. For no one here can help you.

the chemist said he neutralizing on the back end.

I'm going to push this back to something I said earlier: It's your job to set the parameters for what is considered " remediated ". You need to tell the seller that remediating lead means lead levels below the EPA action level on all faucets. If that's anything other than replacing the plumbing they need to talk to you about their plan.

Remediating the nitrates means nitrate level below EPA action level on drinking water in the kitchen. This should include the fridge if it has drinking water or ice maker. This will probably mean a point of use R/O unit.

It's not your job to figure out the rest of it. If they don't agree, the decision has been taken out of your hands and you need your earnest money returned.

By putting it on them to deliver a house with clean water, which is where the responsibility should be, you take yourself out of all of the details and make it about the results.

After putting more thought into re-piping after closing, I think that's probably unworkable. For one thing the lender may not agree to it.

Starting to wonder if this is a made up problem just to see what the comments would be after the comment "the chemist said he neutralizing on the back end". Much easier just to have the two parts tested but "no" must have an expert and perhaps wasted money doing something that is not necessary.

OP should realize that unless the back end is established correctly nothing any chemist can do to ease or stop the problem. I do wonder if they have even talked to whoever they were planning on obtaining the loan from. They are definitely not thinking about what their problem really is.

OP - if you don't know what the problem is, you can't fix it. To be clear, the problem for you isn't that there's lead in the water, it's that you don't know whether it's from the well or from the piping. Find that out first. Test the well water and if it's clear, then obviously it's the piping somewhere between the well and the house, or within the house, or both. If it's not clear, that's a whole other ball of wax.

I'm not sure why you're resisting the idea of testing the well before going any further: it seems kind of basic common sense to me.

" the chemist said he neutralizing on the back end."

Again - the vast majority of the time the lead in drinking water comes from the service lines or the customer's plumbing. If the source of the lead is the plumbing then you have just put very clean water back into pipes that are going to contaminate it with lead.

I know that some R/O units return minerals back into the water that make R/O water less aggressive. However, Google "is it ok to run reverse osmosis water through metal pipe" and see what comes up.

Look, you don't want to get up to your nostrils in water treatment. You just don't. And if you get it wrong, or don't maintain the system, or can't afford the maintenance you are in trouble.

@jmm1837 not resisting. I'll definitely have it tested. I'm just continuing discussions assuming it's the plumbing. This is a very populated area. If this was a ground water issue, wouldntit effect a lot of people?

Not necessarily.

You still have yet to perform the next logical steps... test the well water and call the lender to get the FHA guidelines.

Remember too, that is the well water tests positive, it does not mean the house does not contain lead producing pipes.

You say your contract has no inspection contingency... hard to believe.

And again, another reason not to enter into major financial transactions without an attorney. The obligation of an attorney that you hire is to protect you. Not the seller and not the deal. An experienced real estate attorney will know what remediation can be done and what your rights are.

It is very unlikely that there is no inspection contingency. I know that what is usual and customary in real estate varies, but standard offers have that unless a buyer refuses it.

Not sure what's standard in different parts of the country, but In my contract there was a "general" inspection contingency, and separate language that covered well/septic. Might be due to the fact that it can take longer than the typical inspection contingency period to get well water results back, not sure. But yea, a general inspection contingency should be in the contract -- I think it's a boneheaded move for a buyer to wave the contingency regardless of whether there is financing or not unless it's a tear-down. OP's contingency period might have expired before the water problem was discovered - ?

This whole thing is mystifying. Why on Earth would anyone knowingly and willingly buy a house where lead in the water is involved. Flint, anyone?

Rehabing apartment complexes for a living has me dealing with HUD, USDA and a few other good people..

Ask a HUD inspector about this earlier in the week.. His response and I quote as best that I can remember...

"If the well is contaminated their must be a filter system installed at the point where the water enters the dwelling to filter ALL of the water entering the house, If lead is found in the pipes, lines, fittings etc contaminating the water a filter must be installed at every point that potable water is used (sinks, showers/tubs, laundry etc) where it makes contact with the skin or is ingested.. Concerning high lead levels found in plumbing fixtures... Only a fool would apt to install filters instead of replacing the contaminated system."

Hmmm, interesting but not very practical. I don't know of Point of Use filters that reliably filter lead AND can do that at volume (such as shower or tub).

Again, the only solution is to replace the plumbing that is causing the lead contamination.

That could be a complete replumb, or it could be an old tank, section of pipe, or brass fittings.

If it's the well (much less likely) you don't want the property.

Put the responsibility on the seller to get lead levels below EPA action level on all faucets. It's their problem to solve. If they can't or won't - walk away.

Jake They have them that can filter up to around 60,000 gallons of water before they need replaced. But they cost and arm and leg to buy before adding the cost of installing the unit.. Do not forget the high nitrate levels also. He would have to add another couple of grand to buy a filter for it, plus installation cost that will need to be replaced at around 100,000 gallon..

Mule Meat These are Point of Use filters that can filter at say, 4 gallon per minute (tub) or 2.5 gpm (shower) and are NSF certified for lead removal? I haven't seen those. Please include a link.

Once you get into something other than a POU filter, (say, something in the basement) then you are talking about running new pipes to each of the fixtures and replacing the faucets... which would probably solve the problem in first place and you wouldn't need the filter.

The nitrates only need to be removed for drinking water. That's an R/O unit under the kitchen sink. It's some money and maintenance - but it's commonly done. I'm seeing cheap ones for $250. So let's say it's $500 for a decent one - that's not terrible for drinking water.

iSpring WGB32B for example is a cheap ($450 - $500) 3 stage whole house filter. It has a flow rate of 15 gpm and good for around 100,000 gallons.

You must under stand that a whole house filter in his case would only be good if his well is cotaminated. If his pipes are bad it would be useless.

Mule Meat

This isn't a lead filter and it's not Point of Use - which is what we were talking about.

This is just a carbon filter.

Believe me when I say that it's really hard to find ANY filter that is NSF certified to remove lead. Most of what you see when you see "NSF certified" is a certification for NSF 42 - which is not for lead reduction. The standard pertaining to lead reduction is NSF 53 and 58 The only ones I've found are very low throughput. There may be something else out there - but I think if you are looking at any kind of whole-house lead treatment (again, if it's not the pipes - which it usually is) then you are talking whole-house R/O.

So Mule Meat this is why I said the OP doesn't want to get up to her nostrils in water treatment. Get this wrong - or defer maintenance -- and the kid will be exposed to serious life changing stuff.

I'm not claiming any expertise on R/O - but a quick google search of what's involved in whole house R/O gives you these kinds of setups (and you are going to re-plumb to eliminate metal pipes)

From ISpring..

iSpring WGB32B-PB Model:

• Stage 3: Lead & Iron Reduction filter – Mainly remove lead, iron, mercury and many other heavy materials from the source water.
• Suitable For: Well water which contains high level lead and iron. If iron is a concern, it is advisable to go for the iSpring WGB32BM model.

Hi Mule Meat

What does "lead reduction" mean? I'm not trying to be an ass, but when you are talking about water treatment, there are a ton of claims and you really have to be specific. Particularly when you are talking about lead.

I know that there are cartridges out there that make this claim - this filter is not unique. I've tried to tie down those some of those claims to something specific - like NSF 53 or 58 and can't.

Here is the list of NSF 53 - 58 filters. There are a few commercial ones listed at 6000 gallons and 2.5 gpm and one listed for just under 6000 gal and 5.6 gpm - which is better than I was able to find a few years ago. The vast majority are under 1 gpm. At 1 gpm and less you are really talking about a drinking water filter or ice maker filter. 2.5 gpm is the flow rate of a shower - those are not at all common. At 6000 gallons, these would require replacing about every 2 months in a "whole house" use based on an average daily water use of 90 gal per day.

The filter that you linked to is not on the list either as the complete unit or the cartridge.

based on what I'm seeing, it looks like the point-of-use situation has improved for NSF 53 filters - which is what we were talking about. The whole-house situation is not really workable though.