I have a 27” GE wall oven as my second oven—in addition to my range oven—and it fits 17” x 13” half sheet pans like the one below (which is what I use for cookies) more than adequately.

One more thing: My wall oven does NOT have a convection option (range oven does), but it is self-cleaning.

Don’t build in something that is already obsolete. 30” is the standard and has been for years.

The 27” size is actually becoming more prolific than it once was. The only reason I have a GE is because there were very few — if not zero — other options in that size at the time I remodeled my kitchen.

If I were shopping for a 27” wall oven today, I’d seriously consider the Thermador 27” Masterpiece Series.

No, the 24” is becoming more common as Euro brands and specialty ovens like steam ovens become more common. 27” is still the lonely orphan that almost no one makes.

There are nine brands at A.J. Madison alone that offer convection and self-cleaning in a single 27” wall oven:

1. Bosch
2. Dacor
3. Electrolux
4. Frigidaire
5. GE
6. Monogram
7. Thermador
8. Viking
9. Whirpool

Edited to add that, in addition to the Thermador Masterpiece, I’d also take a look at the Monogram ZEK7000SHSS, which appears to have good reviews.

Thank you both for comments already! We are seriously considering 24", too--it might make more sense as we will have the big oven in the range as well. We'd do a second 30" oven, but it seems excessive for two, and even though we're gutting the kitchen, in this 'second kitchen' area, there physically isn't room for the 30" without sacrificing aisle space, which we won't do.

Does anyone have experience with any of the 24" or 27" european or european-convection brands? We don't need or want a $3,000-plus oven (the splurges have come in every other part of the kitchen--trying to stay realistic :D).

I would forget a 27 inch "extra" oven with a 36 inch gas range, unless yu are running a catering business, and certainly wouldn't include it in "the worlds most awkward kitchen" whatever that is. People have lived with a single range for eons. They still manage Thanksgiving and Christmas too.

All 27 inch ovens will take a cookie sheet and have for decades, despite nobody WANTS a 27 inch oven. A GE monogram 36 inch gas range will take a catering size cookie sheet! And it is a marvelous machine as well on all counts including virtually no service issues.

Show the world, the worlds most awkward kitchen........draw it with all dimensions , entries, windows NEATLY and load a photo.

For fun, here's the original kitchen layout. We love love love the rest of the house, so this wasn't a deal breaker, as we went into it knowing that we'd re-do it. I'm sure others loved it, but it's not built how we cook or live.

We have a great new floor plan that deletes the redundant first-floor full bathroom (there's no first-floor bedroom) and eliminates the Great Wall of Doors in the family room (to left of kitchen).

Maybe not the world's most awkward, but certainly the most awkward we've lived!

We definitely need two ovens--we use two at least once a week. We're leaning toward a 24" convection self-cleaning oven for the second (Verona, Fulgor Milano or Bertazzoni, maybe) but would still love feedback!

Post your after layout . What 36” oven have you decided to use? Very often, those who want a second oven when choosing a 36” will get better capabilities and more utility by switching to a 48” range. You get a standard 30” oven, and a smaller 18” oven that can do most of the breads and cookies. Of course that also means increasing the ventilation to a 54”, and make up air. But make up air is a reality with the 36” as well.

A 36" Viking pro natural gas range--this will be our third :)

There are obviously still some ? marks that won't be answered until walls start coming down, but we are excited! the dishwasher will be much closer to the sink in actuality. The base of island to the right of the baking oven can't get any more narrow, which is why we're looking at narrower ovens. The narrower oven will also be more efficient.

Hire a real KD now. And an architect. That’s the most bizarre original that I’ve seen in a while. You need an architect to figure out a better overall space plan for the whole. And a KD to figure out the kitchen specifics. And bales and bales of cash. This will be a darn expensive endeavor.

A Viking? Just no.

You need a lot of Pro help here. It’s beyond any crowdsource tweaks.

don't worry about your second oven being small if you have a primary full sized one. i'm a constant baker and am satisfied with my 30" and 27" ovens.

that said... i bake in my 30" one, and use my 27" for dinner casserole cooking.... so, just a heads up for how you arrange anything.

my whirlpool 27" is over by the rest of the kitchen.

@sophie wheeler- thanks for the feedback! Isn’t the original bizarre? We have a KD and great architect and feel confident in design as this is our 6th house, so we’ve definitely learned what we do and don’t like. I put layout up for fun but am really just looking for wall oven feedback. Do you have any experience with the ovens I mentioned?

@leelee sometimes...occasionally... we roast veggies on the cookie sheets too :)

@ninigret thank you! pretty sure the second oven will be 24”, but should accommodate most baking regardless the non convection gas range oven can jump in to bake the few things that really won’t fit

@ninigret great kitchen!! Ours will be similar in that baking oven will be further from range. What are your gray stone counters?

LG rococo quartz

thanks for liking my kitchen. i like my deep baking sheet drawer, myself.

HouseNumber6, wowzers, six houses, I am tired just thinking about it! Your pros must love working with you, though. You must know what you are doing very well by now :-)

I have to agree with Sophie. And yes the original is bizarre but this isn't much better if at all. At least before your work zone followed in a line.

It looks like your aisle space between your island and perimeter cabinets are 3'3 9/16" from cabinet to cabinet. First when measuring distance in a kitchen, it needs to be measured counter to counter. So right there you'll lose 3".

Secondly, the space is too narrow. 42" is really minimum for a 1 butt kitchen and if 2 of you work together in the kitchen, you ideally need 48" of aisle space.

Also when we cook, we take food out of the fridge and pantry, bring it to the sink to rinse, then prep between our cooktop and our sink before bringing it to the cooktop to cook.

Look at the hike you have to get food out of the fridge and bring it to the sink to prep.

On top of that you're crossing zones in a narrow space to get to the cooktop. If someone else gets something out of the fridge and you're cooking, then what? They have to walk around the island to get to the sink or do you stop cooking and move yourself against the counters so the person can squeeze through?

You have lots of space to the right of your sink but only barely enough for prep between the cooktop and the sink.

Another question is what is the door to the right? Is that a pathway to/from something? Will people be walking through your work zone?

One more thought. If my sink is on the perimeter, I'd want my trash next to my sink on one side. I wouldn't want to have to pivot 180 degrees to put trash from the sink into the trash bins.

If it were me, I'd seriously have the people here take another look at your layout and suggest some better ways of organizing it. I'd especially try and get beuhl to look at it.

PS: I know that's not what you wanted to hear, but better to get it correct on paper than to curse it the rest of your days. LOL.

@CPArtist,

Thanks for your input! Again, I put up the layout for fun (since the original is, really, interesting/unusual). This will be the 6th kitchen we've designed--we know that it probably won't look like the average American kitchen. We've had the trash near the sink, and much prefer it in the island, where the vast majority of cooking scraps end up. We've also had wide aisles, and find that we prefer what we're used to, which are admittedly not what most people suggest. Too wide and we feel it's awkward. It's yet to be a problem for resale.

To be clear, also, the design rendered above is my 'sketch,' not what the contractor etc are using to actually build and design. It is a general idea. For how we live, and cook, it's much more functional than the original with the stove facing the opposite way with air behind a false wall.

Again, thanks for your suggestions! If you have any experience with a 24" oven that you loved, I'm really looking for opinions there.

@Rita Number 6! It's easier every time, as we take the parts of the house and kitchen that we liked and apply it to the new one, and can leave the parts that didn't work. I certainly hope they like working with us... and I'm not sure we know what we're doing, but we're definitely more comfortable with doing it now!

I haven't had it for long, one week, but I am impressed with my Miele XXL 24" convection steam oven (CSO). It is my #3 oven in the kitchen as I have a 48" Wolf dual fuel range. We aren't big bakers ... like someone said above, cookies are bad for you! lol

I anticipate the Miele CSO will get used much more than the Wolf ovens. There is a bit of a learning curve with the CSO, but well worth it.

I went with the plumbed version and put it under the counter in the island, next to the prep sink to utilize the water supply and drain.

If you make the island longer, you have room for your sink there. That gives you an nice long stretch of counter between the range and a wall oven placed in the corner to use as rolling out space for baking. The space to the left of the sink also is your prime are for stovetop cooking.

I'd suggest the GE Cafe side opening oven. It has great clearance, and is easy to get to.

Island Style · More Info

I also cannot recommend the Miele CSO highly enough. It is by far my favorite thing in the kitchen. It would make an ideal second oven. Mine is plumbed and under the counter in an island as well.

PS Ah yes, now I remember why this wasn't something I recommended to start out with- does not meet your criteria at all. Plus it's way better for salmon and veggies than for cookies.

Cooks Kitchen, that works so much better.

I don't have any info on a 24" oven but I do have the 30" Bosch oven and am very happy with it. They do make a 24" and a 27".

@chispa, @Rita, thank you for the oven recommendations!

@TheCook'sKitchen What an interesting idea! We had considered bringing the island down, but hadn't drawn it out. It looks great on paper. Our prep area will be the island, but our sink has always been under the window, and we don't find that arrangement burdensome even though many might. Also, the wall space in the kitchen on the other side of the powder room is very important as we have an antique pub sign from a favorite part of England that will live there, and it's basically a member of the family at this point so must have a home :) Thank you for taking the time to make such a thoughtful new plan.

I've added the GE Cafe to our list to go over with our appliance guy--we had a bluestar we didn't like, but we did like the french doors. I somehow missed that GE made something similar. Thank you so much for the recommendation!

@cpartist Will look at Bosch too. Thanks!

I added a 27 in. Bosch oven because my stove is a commercial gas range with no broiler and very iffy oven temperatures. The stove is great for roasting a very large bird or suckling pig, but not so great for precision baking and gratinees. The Bosch does the job, but does seem to take a while to pre-heat. The interior dimension is 21 inches, so it will hold an 18x13 sheet pan horizontally only.

My lesson learned: the only place for the second oven was in the island which is also my main prep area. Occasionally (but now less frequently) I find myself accidentally leaning into the touch pad and setting off the beeper for resetting the clock or timer...

Good luck! BTW: Your kitchen looks like it will be fabulous!

Also, the wall space in the kitchen on the other side of the powder room is very important as we have an antique pub sign from a favorite part of England that will live there, and it's basically a member of the family at this point so must have a home :) Thank you for taking the time to make such a thoughtful new plan.

So put a wall up like below (see arrow) which also helps hide the powder room from the kitchen and hang your wonderful sign there. (I love collecting things like that. In fact if you look at my kitchen, 8 years ago our cabinet guy made us an 80" wide buffet out of cherry and lacewood and I designed a niche in my kitchen just so it would fit.)

Cooks plan is so much better in terms of layout.