Thanks so much for your posts, both here and on https://www.reddit.com/r/AntiqueRoses/  There is a free online library with many of these old American Rose Annuals. I've seen a few of them. I suspect that you are right and that could be the best source of information.

Cedemas, the above link didn't work for me but was able to find the forum main page and the following which I think you were linking to.

"Tea Roses for Southern Climates From the 1927 American Rose Annual: By CAPT. GEORGE C. THOMAS, Beverly Hills, Calif.

I'm finding it very interesting. Thank you rbehs for posting it and Cedemas for linking.

Mary, so sorry, I had to remove the period at the end of the link to make it work.

There was something strange about that period..when the link opened, there were several random characters and the error message.

Was interesting, though a little discouraging - lots of balling and mildew going on in Capt. Thomas's garden. In fact, I'm surprised he could say he liked Teas at all. And a lot of missing from commerce/no picture roses at HMF. I specially wanted to see "Anna Chartron. Cream-yellow, washed lilac-rose". Sounds like it could be either stunning combination or yuck. Guess I'll never know.

And another thanks to rbehs for providing all the HMF links.

I thought it was funny that he only listed the faults of each rose, not its strengths. Also, he ranked a lot of now unknown roses higher in his order of preference than some of today's favorites like Mrs. B. R. Cant or Duchesse of Brabant. It was a fascinating article to spend some time with, and made me feel like I got to know the man who brought us Dr. Huey a little better.

Yeah, he was extremely critical and seemingly dispassionate. LOL! I laughed, too.

cedemas - go to Amazon and look at the book "Tea Roses: Old Roses for Warm Gardens". It was published in 2008, and is the only modern book on tea roses I am aware of. Yes, it cost $69, but it is definitely worth it. Or, perhaps you can find it in a library. Yes, it was written in Australia, but it is marvelous - it is so nice to see comments about tea roses from people who garden in a WARM climate which teas like. The 5 authors really studied the teas they talk about in the book, and the book concentrates on tea roses only, and their history in Australia, and the discovery of the identity of tea roses which were imported into Australia 50 or 100 years ago. Fascinating. As you have noticed, a lot of old published comments about tea roses were written by rose experts who grew roses in England, or on the East Coast of the US, in climates which were TOO COLD for the tea roses to be happy - thus all of the negative remarks. Growing roses in climates they HATE will not result in good roses. Teas love the climate in Australia, much of Asia. South Africa, Southern France (where many of them were hybridized in the 19th century), and, FLA and California, among other places with warm climates.

The pictures below are of a tea rose called 'Anna Olivier', which was growing in my 110 year old garden (my husband's great grandparents started it), and was identified by the 5 tea rose authors when they were visiting from Australia. It turned out that it was lost in commerce in the US, although still in commerce in Australia. Vintage Gardens put it back in commerce in North America using cuttings from the rose in my garden. So exciting! It shows the color variability common to many tea roses. The bush below is not the original ancient one - that finally succumbed at about 100 years old, but this one is from a cutting I rooted from it.

Jackie

Thanks Jackie.

That is one magnificient Anna Olivier. I am still confused as to the differences between Anna Olivier, Bermuda's Anna Olivier, and Schmidt's Buff Giant. HMF suggests they are the same and yet others disagree.

I've read a lot of the comments about the Tea Ladies' book and it seemed to me that there was less history and more about descriptions of roses in commerce but not with the information on lineages that I seek. Still, I'd rather have it than not have it.

The teas I am most drawn to have probably have some early hybrid tea and might not be so ideally suited to Florida. I have that instinctive knack for wanting what I can't have.

BR Cant is great, and she is probably the most successful tea of all in Florida but I think it would be exceedingly rare for her to pass the age of 30.

Also I have seen some enormous specimens (on Pam Greenwald's property--Angel Gardens) of Rozette Delizy and a few others, white-to-beige blooms, a full cup shape, and not much scent). They might have been pushing 20.

The rest of those that find themselves on "recommended for Florida" can do well but most likely not as well as BR Cant. Aside from BR Cant, Dr. Manners recommends only grafted Teas. Worse, still, the teas that he does recommend comprise a very short list:

Bon Silene

Duchesse de Brabant

Etoile de Lyon

Maman Cochet

Marie Van Houtte

Mme. Lombard

Mons. Tillier

Mrs. B. R. Cant

Papa Gontier

(I have all but Bon Silene, Etoile de Lyon, and Marie Van Houtte).

On the whole I think that teas prefer Mediterranean climates so it doesn't surprise me that they do so well in parts of California. Much better than in Florida, it seems!

Chinas are happier here--the real Chinas, not the ones that are misclassified Bourbons, or the ones with HP or early HT injections or whatever. I just wish that I could get as worked up over them. They tend to have a more loose, informal flower as well as bush and they just don't thrill me. I've never squealed with delight or felt my heart skip a beat with a China.

cedemas, Anna Olivier is Schmidt 's Buff Giant. Bermuda Anna Olivier is Etoile de Lyon. So you might have to get Etoile at least if Malcolm recommends it. I agree some of these confusing different names are a work in progress. Let's not even talk about mistakes of wrongly labeled roses shipped. I still have a few without names yet.

cedemas - what Sheila said about the three rose names is correct. "Schmidt's Buff Giant" is the study mystery rose name they gave the old old Anna Olivier in my garden. Evidently 'Etoile de Lyon' got mixed up with 'Anna Olivier' in Bermuda, and also other places in North America - it resembles Anna Olivier except in color - EdL is always yellow.

The exact history of tea roses is hard to trace, as there were so so many of them, and the descriptions in old catalogs, etc. are usually so vague (also, they used the words "red" and "yellow" the same way current hybridizers use the word "blue".

So, currently rose folks who are interested in teas tend to focus on the ones which are still in commerce, and trying to find mystery teas and figure out who they are (the ladies who wrote the Australian rose book have pictures of unidentified teas which are gorgeous). Or, they like to find mystery teas and get them back into commerce under study names.

Jackie

Thanks to all for the input and suggestions.

I am a little bit afraid of the mystery or found roses because I always have a sneaking suspicion that they are something that I already have.

McClinton tea, which I have, may or may not be Bon Silene. So do I really need Bon Silene? Georgetown tea, which I have, may or may not be Mme. Lombard, which I also have, and to make matters worse they are within a few yards of each other. When I got them I knew nothing. Now I know epsilon, which in the math world is used to represent a very small positive quantity.

It would not be an issue if I had unlimited funds and sunny space.

I really wish I knew how closely some of these teas were related.

Sheila: If Dr. Manners recommends it and it is a tea, it is necessary to acquire it.

About color: in my garden at this time, most colors tend to be white or whitish. I do have a few exceptional medium pinks and yellows, but in general everything is washed out and/or shrunken due to the excessive heat and omnipresent rain. I look at pictures on HMF and they look nothing like my blooms! I guess I'll have to wait for Fall and Spring to see what my roses can really do.

My Georgetown Tea and Madame Lombard are both from ARE and they do look identical to me. I have china CS and tried to order LP on the phone from ARE and the nice lady said to me that I might as well get another CS leading me to think they were also probably identical from ARE. I love ARE, but I know what you mean cedemas.

Cedemas, your thread is extremely interesting. Thank you for posting. Yup, I was also questioning myself when it came down to Anna Oliver. One of the reasons why I did not get Schmidt's Buff Giant. I ran into Bermuda and other names as you mentioned above. So, I never ordered it.

Also, I heard SBF grows so huge. I read an article about the rose came from Jackie's garden . How the Australian achieved it. I wonder why it was name Giant ? Bec it grows so big !!

Jackie, it is a beautiful rose and makes it even better when it belongs to your GG grandmother. A beautiful history ;)

Jin