myermike, how much time should I wait before using something else after applying the fish emulsion? Is it possible to have too much nitrogen even if it's organic?

Robert Pavlis says that fish fertilizer is a waste of money and damages the environment. https://www.gardenmyths.com/fish-fertilizer-damaging-environment/

I only use what works for me and the Alaska Fish Emulsion did a great job of greening up my trees. Pavlis who? lol. Fish emulsion is what is left after the meal and oil have been removed (ref 3). Wikipedia defines fish emulsion as ” the fluid remains of fish processed for the fish oil and fish meal industrially”. Since it's a byproduct, I'll use it. Fish is used for dog and cat food as well. Nothing personal against your post, but there is always somebody complaining about something damaging the environment.

Denise,

There will always be someone saying the sky is blue and one saying the sky is black looking up at the same time.. It's just life. Use if it your seeing a remarkable difference as I do. Many will disagree and even want scientific proof that it repels bugs, but I don't, since I can see it works for my trees in that way too. It's just that simple)

Mike

Denise, the link posted by Vladimir above suggests that at least some of the fish emulsion produced is NOT a byproduct. Instead fish are fished just for this purpose.

I personally choose to use mostly inorganic (in the chemical sense) sources of nitrogen for my plants. It is both better available and MUCH cheaper on a nitrogen per dollar basis.

Last year I tried Mike's method of FE as a foliar spray to deal with scale and it worked well so long as I sprayed weekly for several weeks then no more scale. Just have to accept that the smell will attract black flies from everywhere which stick around for the next few days. I also made the mistake of spraying my fig tree and overnight all the figs including the smallest babies disappeared so not doing that any more. This year I've been trying other stuff for scale with less success so am going back to fish emulsion and live with the flies.

If you are talking about soft scale you could have regularly sprayed with water under pressure and the result would have been the same.. For hard scale any oily product would do the same.

I don't care if there is scientific proof. lol. I just want to know what people have done and the results. My family uses echinencia and aloe vera for colds and it works great for us. There is no scientific proof of that either. So I agree with you Mike.

Mike, perhaps what you see is an illusion. What is wrong with trusting science?

Mike, you've NEVER steered me in the wrong direction, Your recommendations have always worked well for me, in fact you got me hooked on Foliage Pro. Your a good man with a huge heart. I, along with everyone that knows you, knows you would NEVER intentionally give out any bad advice. If someone tried something you suggested, and it didn't work, you have always been apologetic. I have an email coming to you soon buddy! I apologize for not getting in touch sooner. I dislocated my shoulder and broke 4 bones in my shoulder joint. That was St. Patrick's Day weekend and I'm still trying to rehab it and get it back to 100%

Mike, you never intentionally give bad advice but some advice, like using fish emulsion, is not the best advice and when I point that out you take it personally and feel hurt. I do not mean to hurt you. Can't we have a difference of opinion?

I would say that fish fertilizer does provide a benefit to plants that it is sprayed on, but the benefit is certainly minimal and not worth the money. Fish fertilizer is way over priced. For the same money a much much much greater benefit can be achieved from a fertilizer such as Peters 25-5-15, or Foliage Pro. On average the nitrogen benefit to the plant from fish is about 40 times more expensive than the same amount of nitrogen benefit from a good conventional fertilizer. However, people will do what people want to do good or bad.

Vlad, thank you for that link. I had read his blurb about the effectiveness/cost comparison before, but had not seen the other article. The use of the phrase 'damaging to the environment' I think is a bit odd. I would suggest that it has potential negative effects on the marine food web.

Pavlis presented the info, it is up to the reader if they want to accept it, research it further, or dismiss it.

Check this thread out for hurt feelings potential

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/do-any-citrusers-believe-in-global-warming-dsvw-vd~1833300

Andrew, thank you for those words. Yes I will look for your e-mail and I will be praying for you. I hate to tell you what I think of this forum lately, and the lack of courage many have here for the good of this forum. But there still exists a small handful thank god. I miss all the folks I've gotten to know that use to come here.

Steve you're to funny and thank you for that. You certainly posses a kind and good spirit I remember those days! You are a good man.

Have a good night)

I buy coated urea nitrogen fertiliser (45-0-0) with urease inhibitor for my in ground plants for 20 Euros per 80 pounds... I don't even want to try calculating how much the same nitrogen provided by fish emulsion would cost ...

Silica I have Foliage Pro also and know it's good for citrus. I like to rotate my fertilizers and use the stuff sitting on my shelves in the garage. Granular products is preferred because here in middle GA, we get almost rain daily which helps dissolve the granular products into the soil. I don't want to add more water to a pot that has plenty. It is also much easier to apply granular products because it gives the mosquitoes less time and opportunity to bite me in the mornings.

I too want to know what products other people have had success with or not and then I’ll decide for myself. I find the anecdotally info helpful, even if it may not be scientifically accurate. This is a place where people can share their personal experience with citrus and products. There’s no need for harsh criticism and attacks, ifone disagrees with another’s opinion.

When you garden in the earth, a soil test is the only way to avoid shooting yourself in the foot and allow you to put together an appropriate nutritional supplementation program.

Whenever we discuss what is or isn't an appropriate part of the methodology we use to make certain our containerized plants get all the nutrients essential to growth and good health, we would probably first want to be sure our objectives are on target. It's difficult to argue with the idea that our focus in supplying supplemental nutrition to our plants should be on ensuring all the nutrients plants normally assimilate from the soil are A) IN the soil and available for uptake at all times, B) in the soil in a favorable ratio - that is to say in a ratio that closely mimics the ratio at which the plant actually uses the nutrient, C) at a concentration high enough to ensure no nutritional deficiencies, yet still low enough to ensure the plant's ability to take up water, and the nutrients dissolved in that water won't be impeded (by a high concentration of solubles in the soil solution).

At this point, you might accept these premises as worthy goals or argue against them. If accepted, we should then necessarily examine our efforts at supplementation in the light of whether or not our efforts bring us closer to or limit our ability to see the goals implemented.

Al

Thanks for responding but that is just too much information for a simple person such as myself. Anything scientific makes my eyes just skip over it. A yes or no is what I was looking for and a simple explanation like to much of this or that. I am not going to pay for a soil test when I know that most of whatever I put into my containers is going to be washed out over time. That is why I fertilize monthly. I fertilized a few days ago and the plants are doing fine.

When talking about container growing a soil test is next to worthless. One can safely assume that NOTHING is available as nutrition to the plant and ALL must be provided by the gardener. Maybe just a pH check now and then if one is very particular.

In response to the original question, yes one can use fish emulsion or any 'organic' fertiliser in combination with any other fertiliser as long as one does not end up providing too much of a good thing.

Thanks nik for a short and sweet answer.

Hey Meyer Mike! I apologize, I lost your email address. Can u give it to me again please?

Hey Andrew! NO worries. Is your e-mail still the same? I will send you one right now. If not I will give you mines buddy!

Sent it to the 'ascott' one.

Mike

I'm running out of the 5-1-1 fish fertilizer need to get more, everything likes it and you cant overdo it. I have also mixed in watered down 1/4 strength or less miracle grow for tomatoes (cheap readily available everywhere), since a label comparison shows only 2 or 3 micros short to foliagepro (way too expensive and only mail order)and osmocote plus granules (readily available) should make up any difference in micros

Hey Mike. My email is andrew78@yahoo.com I have a day of parties, picnics and possibly a new baby to a close friend of mine :) I probably won't have time to respond to your email until late tonight or tomorrow morning. I just checked my Ponderosa lemon and it is blooming again. It has gone through a major bloom almost every month since March! All my citrus with the exception of the 4 I got from Four Winds are blooming again!

Short/sweet answers about supplemental nutrition, more often than not, lack the qualifications where almost all of the value would be found. If you're having a physiological issue and you ask your Dr if there is a vitamin you can take for whatever is ailing you, and he gives the short/sweet answer, "Yes", it's not much help.

Some growers would be interested in knowing that, when when summer temperatures are in the 90s, fertilizers that derive their N from an organic source can contribute significantly to the likelihood of ammonium toxicity - a very common malady, but one that almost always goes undiagnosed among us hobby growers. Ammonium toxicity is especially prevalent in soils that hold excessive amounts of water. Osmocote and other controlled release fertilizers present their own issue during the dog days. Since temperature is to the greatest extent what controls the rate at which nutrients are released, the volume of nutrients in the soil solution will be greatest when you should be dialing back the level of dissolved solids salts in the soil.

We CAN or MAY do whatever we want insofar as nutritional supplementation goes, but all plans are not created equal. If you rely entirely on an all organic approach, you really don't know what, when, or how much any given nutrient or group of nutrients will be available. If you use several fertilizers in a shotgun approach so you're "covering all the bases", invariably you'll be oversupplying some nutrients and under-supplying others - also not a good idea for several reasons. Obviously under-supplying nutrients creates deficiencies, but, so does over-supplying nutrients. An excess of nutrient A can cause an antagonistic deficiency of nutrient B. Too much Ca inhibits uptake of Mg. Too much Fe inhibits uptake of Mn. Too much of any of the mobile (i.e. mobile in the plant) nutrients can create antagonistic deficiencies of any of the other mobile nutrients. Plant nutrition isn't simple, but fertilizing can be VERY simple. I can teach almost anyone how to fertilize effectively in 5-10 minutes, understanding why a particular approach is effective takes longer.

In my first post, upthread, I outlined what my goals are when I fertilize. It seems like a perfectly logical outline to me, but perhaps someone can add something that improves it or has questions? Not having a nutritional end game is sort of like wandering in the wilderness, so it's best to develop a plan you can implement and depend on. Unfortunately, it's about impossible to give much in the way of meaningful advice to those growing in the earth, unless they have in hand a soil analysis. It's also nearly impossible to give container growers specific advice about fertilizer rates and intervals between applications unless we know the physical properties of the soil the grower is using and the grower has described his her watering habits. These two factors have the greatest influence on what, in the end, will be the most effective plan.

Al

I prefer the short and sweet answers because I am not going to remember all the details and don't really want to. Four paragraphs of scientific advice is overkill to me. My eyes just glaze over and have to force myself to read what you typed. I have been growing citrus for 20 years now in containers and they are doing well with the regime I am following. Fish emulsion is not something I use on a regular basis which is why I inquired. My trees look green and lush so I must be doing something right with my fertilizing "plan."

Hummm garrulous.

Silica, fantastic response. lol.

I was "wandering in the wilderness" of all that extraneous verbiage trying to understand what Al was trying to say.

I had assumed that each of you making those remarks are past 50 considering how often you folks tout your years of experience. And yet it is astonishing that you cannot resist the temptation to make petty remarks like this. I would have hoped that you could have shown some deference to a teacher who is trying to use his years of experience in a constructive way and free of cost. Needless to say I find this very disappointing.

tropicofcancer, Age has nothing to do with it. I asked for an answer that was short and to the point and yet it was not done. Who wants to read 3-4 paragraphs and not get a definitive answer? If I was a student at college studying agriculture or growing trees commercially, then maybe it would be a big deal to know all that stuff.

Here we go again.

Denise: My comment was not about that at all. It was Silica's cheap shot (garrulous !!) and then your gleeful support of that and then Vladimir's "wandering in the wildnerness"

I know some people have a hard time paying attention beyond a few words. But unless you think it was misinformation you could have just went past it. I guess you got what you wanted from the other posts. Although, no one really answered your question - "excessive amounts of potassium which would lead to nitrogen lockout". To correctly answer that would require a lot of explanation. Al did steer the discussion in the right direction. But no one else is ready to bite or take the time. So there you are.

DB - you misunderstand. My first reply addressed you directly and was meant to get you thinking about what your goals are. That failed - I'm sorry. From your response, I clearly got the message you didn't want my style of help. No problem. My second contribution on the thread was simply me taking advantage of an opportunity to share on topic information with anyone who might find it to be of value. I very often take advantage of such opportunities to address the forum when I see them. I think that meshes well with the spirit of civil exchange in forum settings.

I'm a wordy guy - what can I say? Even pedantic at times. I freely admit it. If I was a proud person, I'd be proud of it. Instead, I prefer to feel blessed by what others might view as a pedestrian fault; this, because of the hundreds of fine people I've met as a result of my efforts on their behalf, because it serves to broaden my own growing experience, and because it provides the certainty that I've helped others get more from their growing experience. What more could anyone ask for from their participation here? Since my tendency to "go long" has garnered enough favorable response here at the forums and in my mail, I'll not likely change because someone calls attention to it; and, that I joke about it all the time sort of dulls the swordsman's blade. ;-)

Your last sentence above made me think though. You can never know how big a deal what you don't know might be. Trial and error is a difficult way to learn - essentially getting bit on the butt by our errors. Those that embrace learning, then use their practical experience to validate what they've learned, will in every case leave the trial and error folk standing in their slipstream.

Al

tropicofcancer, it was not gleeful. It was funny because I wasn't sure to whom that remark was directed to. I thought it was directed at me. I had originally typed up a longer post and thought it was too wordy so I cut it in half. I had no idea what garrulous meant when I first read it and had to look it up in the dictionary.

Those who grow citrus in containers know that some of whatever fertilizer is applied to the pot will eventually be flushed out with every watering. That is why it is recommended by many to either fertilize at least once a month with a commercially developed citrus fertilizer, add Osmocote Plus as directed on the label, or use a water soluble product like Foliage Pro with every watering. If a certain element is missing, it will be taken care of one way or the other within a short time.

If you read on forum and FB, most people just want the basics on how to grow citrus: how much sunlight, how much fertilizer, what type of soil works best, and which fertilizer. Nobody asks about the scientific facts to back it up. You don't need a goal or plan because most commercially developed citrus fertilizers on the market should contain everything a citrus tree needs. That is what I do and haven't had any deficiency problems. If those fertilizers do not do what is expected, then I have wasted my money.

Al, I understand what you are trying to do, but couldn't you shorten it a bit? I am old and too much info is overwhelming at times. I admit it. lol. I have to go back, reread and pick out the pertinent info that really answers my question. At times, some of it is over my head. I hated science when I was in school too so that doesn't help either.

Garrulous Silica? lol. Sorry, I wrote a book. I couldn't help myself. lol

Thanks Al.

It makes a lot of sense to me. I don't have access to affordable soil analysis but I have noticed that once my trees get a larger root system all of the deficiency problems go away. I have also noticed that if my tree grow real fast the roots can't provide the micros fast enough. I plant in ground in my 12,000 year old heavy clay soil of the Teays river system. It is rich in micros but devoid of air and nitrogen. It also has a PH of 7.8.

Steve

I live here

PCG - I live almost exactly 250 miles dead north of you - in the crotch of Michigan's mitten at the bottom of Saginaw Bay. I've spent some time in your fair city for business purposes, and I attended a bonsai convention there about 10-12 years ago.

DB - I respect how you feel, and know you want basics, so should the opportunity arise where I think I might have something helpful to add to a conversation, I'll try to present it in a way that allows you to get the meat without having to eat a bushel of salad to get to it, or I'll skip it altogether. I'm not here to see how many folks I can offend, and some are so predisposed to being offended it doesn't matter what I say - they'll just automatically be that way by default.

I'm used to people wanting details details details. It's that whole 'teach a man to fish' and 'inquiring minds want to know' ...... thing. Maybe it will end up being a good thing that simply handing out instructions w/o qualifying what I said is so completely foreign to me. Best luck.

Al

Al Thanks for not taking offense.

Denise: I will accept your explanation. You see you had to resort to many more words in order to be clear :)) And I was not offended either. Neither I was not trying to defend Al - he does not need that as you noticed. Disappointed? - Yes. Mostly I ignore but sometimes not.

I rarely trust advise given in forums and social media. I read and analyze information myself for everything I do. From there I build mental lists of sources and people that I can trust. Science may not be everyone's cup of tea but I trust good science more than peoples opinion. Science provides logical direction but in practice the answer is rarely a clear cut yes or no. So at the end of day, good explanations tend to become verbose - because the author does not know where one is coming from and where they want to go.

I answer a lot of questions on the forums, and I try to make sure people aren't left with more questions than they started with, so I qualify almost everything I say to eliminate misinterpretation. I personally always feel like I'm going the extra mile, and I try always have an individual's or the forum's best interest at heart, but I also realize we all have different perspectives and what's good for the gander might not be good for the goose. ;-)

Wherever you guys are, I hope it's cooler than it is here. My goodness!

Al

Al - I know I personally really appreciate when you chime in. I have read many of your older posts. I'm a fairly intelligent person who enjoys learning and some times your posts are over my head too...but I do truly appreciate you trying to help us all.

Al, you have no idea how many people, have privately e-mailed me that use to be a part of these forums saying how much you make a difference here! Many have left because of the lack of appreciation for what they had to offer here and for many other things that are not even worth mentioning.

Please, peek in more often and please add what ever you have to say, whether just a few words or all the words you want! There is always something all of us can take away from your offerings whether small of large.

No matter what level a person converses on, said conversation is bound to be over someone's head. The only people who resent direct questions are those who aren't here for the right reasons and can't answer because they're operating at beyond the limits of their knowledge. What moves me to want to help any individual is their level of enthusiasm and their desire to learn, not necessarily in that order. When people are serious about wanting to learn, they can express both that desire and their enthusiasm by asking questions and/or asking for clarification when something just isn't 'clicking'. When you want to learn, good people see it, and will never make you feel small so they can feel big. If they do, there is usually someone around to let them know that sort of behavior is boorish and uncalled for.

Too, whenever I'm answering a question someone asked, I'm always talking to the entire forum, so I might be talking to neophytes and advanced gardeners at the same time. The more advanced don't need to ask for clarification, but I always hope those newer to gardening buck up and ask for clarification when there is ANYTHING they don't understand. I don't think we should be here to see who can be first to post or tally the most posts by the end of the day. I'd rather spend an hour making sure you understand something than leave a dozen poor posts that lack of qualification has rendered meaningless. Why bother?

If you say something like, "I don't get it, but I want to", almost everyone that CAN, WILL be more than happy to see that you DO get it - I know I would be. When you think about it, the forum wouldn't be much of a draw if no one asked questions.

Have a good weekend, and thanks for the kind words.

Mike - I get a LOT of mail from the forum. What's said confirms that how I manage my time here makes a difference and is appreciated by all but a few. It's an unusual day that I don't get at least 15 questions from lurkers or people too embarrassed to ask their question(s) publicly. I answer as many as I can, but I'd rather spend time on the forums so more are exposed to the things I share. I guess what I'm getting at is, given the overwhelmingly positive responses I see daily, it's really difficult for someone to do or say anything negative on the forum that harshes my mellow.

Thank you for the kind words, too.

Al

The original comment is misleading - YES - it could be damaging if a species is being fished purely to be utilised as fertiliser - BUT - when there are feral species like ASIAN CARP in AUSTRALIA and other fish guts etc from fish processing facilities being used - then the original comment here is misleading.

Much of this thread is four years old but I am a bit surprised no one discussed the potted plant soil test question and why or why not to do a soil test in a potted plant. I suspect we could all benefit from a potted plant soil test if we could get an instant result.....and then act accordingly.....not have to wait days or even a week to get the test results back. I generally grow in-ground so the concept is just that to me....a concept but it seems that a potted plant's soil chemistry would be different by the time one received the results back from the lab. So....you still wouldn't know what to do without doing multiple tests and then extrapolating your test results to match your watering regime and other variables that might influence your potted plant's soil...assuming you actually use some kind of soil instead of one of the gritty mixes. Certainly even in-ground soil would change over a week but probably much less since in-ground nutrient sources, cycling, drainage, and watering regimes are very different from the potted plant.