HVAC Replacement Help

5 years ago

I am interested in replacing my very aged, still functional Lennox HVAC system in my 1,750 sq. ft, 2 story home in Western Pennsylvania. My current system consists of a gas forced air Lennox Model G12Q3-110 and a HS16-311U-4P AC condenser (2.5 ton).

I don’t plan on being in this home longer than 5 or 6 years. I have been given quotes for the 80% furnace because I can’t get a consensus from installers as to where the intake and exhaust pipes could be run. There is no easy or aesthetic route. We are not heavy users of the central air. We do run the AC during the several week long stretches of heat and humidity in the summer. Otherwise, the windows are open to allow fresh air in.

Since my utility will rebate $100.00 / ton on a 15+SEER AC condenser, some contractors have quoted the 16 SEER unit. I would also get an additional $100 back for a furnace with the fully variable speed DC motor.

I would appreciate any comments, recommendations or guidance on the quotes below. Is there any clear choice on which would provide the most value ?

QUOTE #1

· Rheem Prestige Series, Model R96VA085, 84,000 BTU 96% efficiency, Two Stage gas furnace with variable Speed ECM blower motor, Rheem, Model RAl3, 3 ton, 13 SEER, R-410A air conditioner with matching coil, Aprilaire humidifier, media type air cleaner and Honeywell digital thermostat….. $7,190.00

· Rheem Classic Series, Model R802VA100, 100,000 BTU, 80% efficiency, Two Stage gas furnace with variable Speed ECM blower motor, Rheem, Model RAl3, 3 ton, 13 SEER, R-410A air conditioner with matching coil, Aprilaire humidifier, media type air cleaner and Honeywell digital thermostat….. $6,350.00

Option: Substitute Model RAl3, 3 ton, 13 SEER, R-410A air conditioner with Rheem, Classic Series, Model RAl6, 3 ton, 16 SEER, R-410A air conditioner with matching coil………. Add $565.00

Quote #2

· BRYANT MODEL 926T 2 STAGE 95% GAS FURNACE, BRYANT MODEL

113A 21l2 TON A/C, BRYANT MEDIA AIR CLEANER, BRYANT HUMIDIFIER, A/C COVER, HONEYWELL T6 THERMOSTAT……. $ 6800.00

Quote #3:

· American Standard Gold 2 stage 95% Furnace Model # S9X2B080U3PSAA

American Standard 3 Ton 13 SEER AC system Model # 4A7A3036H1000N cased A Coil Model # 4PXCCBU36BS3HAA, America Standard Humidifier Model# AHUMD300ABA00B, American Standard Thermostat Model # ACONT602AF22MA, Aprilaire Air cleaner Model # 2410 …$7,125.00

· American Standard Gold 2 stage 80% variable speed Furnace Model # AUD2B100A9V3VB, American Standard 3 Ton 13 SEER AC system Model # 4A7A3036H1000N with cased A Coil Model # 4PXCCBU36BS3HAA, America Standard Humidifier Model# AHUMD300ABA00B, American Standard Thermostat Model # ACONT602AF22MA Aprilaire Air cleaner Model # 2410…. $6,625.00

OPTION: Substitute American Standard 3 Ton 13 SEER AC system Model # 4A7A3036H1000N with cased A Coil Model # 4PXCCBU36BS3HAA with

American Standard 3 Ton 16 SEER Air conditioning system

Model # 4A7A6036J1000A with cased A Coil Model # 4PXCCBU36BS3HAA … ADD $800.00

Featured Answer

tigerdunes

5 years ago

Depending on the system configuration, I have nothing against Rheem brand. I consider it a solid mid range choice. I do prefer AmStd or Bryant, my bias. AmStd sister company to Trane, Bryant sister company to Carrier. On the Rheem though, you would want the furnace properly sized 60 K and upgrade AC to 15 SEER model. The 2 stage furnace would require a two stage thermostat for best operation, not a low end HW thermostat. On the thermostat, same would be true for AmStd and Bryant as well. I think you would be happy with any of these systems. And because of your system's age and getting improved efficiencies with new system and correctly sized, you could actually plot a meaningful yearly payback. Just curious, how much did you spend last year on nat gas for heating?

IMO

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Comments (30)

tigerdunes
5 years ago
the very obvious from your quotes are that you are being grossly oversized on the furnaces. You don't need more than a 60 KBTU high eff 95%+ furnace. The way your family uses AC, I would stick with a 2 1/2 ton with full cooling BTUs 15 SEER rated. If talking brands, I would stay with AmStd or 2nd choice Bryant, both furnace and AC properly sized.

No 80% eff furnaces.

IMO
sktn77a
5 years ago
If your system is still functional and you only intend to be in the house 5-6 years, I'd leave it alone. If and when it dies on you, by all means replace it but it'll probably last you another 5 years. Any maintenance and repairs should be a lot less than $7000!
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@tigerdunes & mike_home: Contractor 3 & 4 I have felt good about. Contractor 3 initially added small amount of R22 free initially. He must have gotten very busy/ or tired of my questions as his responses have slowed down to grind. Finally heard back form Contractor 3. He stated "supply plenum is large enough, they can re-build return plenum for $225. He is using a slab coil because airflow would be better, Supply plenum for A-COIL would be smaller" He said supply plenum is big enough w/o rebuilding. I requested he price out Option 1 with Carrier Infiniti with the 58CV(A,X)090-16 furnace instead. He stated "Again furnace was chosen for airflow. 58CV(A,X)090-16 IS ONLY 17” WIDE instead of 21”, Smaller plenum". Did not re-price. Contractor 3 said keep in mind Perfect Fit filters cost 3X of Aprilaire. Final Prices incl similar duct work repairs w/ utility rebate, instant Trane rebate for T-stat. Contractor 3: $11,267 total. Can't fit me in on schedule til 1st week of May. 3-4: Trane XR17 (16.0/13.0): 4TTR7048A1, UD2C080G9V4, 4TXFH054CC3, XL824 Scope: Rebuild return plenum and keep supply plenums (slab coil), R-8, 2” of insulation, auxiliary drain pan, condenser pad, float switches, programmable thermostat, adapt to copper lines, gas connections, seal duct where needed, adapt to vent pipe, electrical, correct size circuit breaker, mechanical permit and inspection, labor, supplies. - Install Perfect Fit media filter. - Replace damaged ducts above second floor (5) & utility (1) and seal flex duct connections - Add supply grille in upstairs office or hall where possible. - Add return grille (12 X 12) in hall ceiling. - Increase duct size feeding kitchen/nook area and 4ft duct board trunk line for better airflow - Replace supply register (15) with wide vane grilles, weather-strip and seal register boots from inside. Contractor 4: $11,463 total. 4-2 XR17 (17.0, 13.5): 4TTR7048A1, UD2C080G9V4 4PXCCU60AC3HAA, XL 824 Scope: Build new supply and return plenums w/ 1 1/2" Owens corning fiberglass duct board (A coil). Add new drain pan, electrical disconnect @ outdoor unit, electrical whip, copper fittings, PVC drain line fittings, gas flex/ gas fittings, exhaust vent, slab as needed per unit specs and city code requirements. - Install Perfect Fit media filter - Transition trunk/branch lines feeding master bed room side and upstairs to new plenum, remove any hard 90 degree turns to provide better air flow to upstairs areas. - Install damper collars on all three flex lines @ front of plenum to provide a means to adjust air flow - Increase sizing of flex (8" to 10") to supply kitchen and nook, remove the distribution box and "Y" off 7" to nook and 8" to kitchen register to provide better air flow to these areas. - Replace all owl flex that is broken open @ upstairs attic (5 drops) & utility (1 drop) with R-6 metallic coated flex ducting. - Cut in new 12"x12" return filter holder grill at upstairs hallway w/ 10" flex to return box @ unit. - Seal all duct work with UL listed metallic tape and mastic to prevent air leakage. - Replace supply register (15) with wide vane grilles, weather-strip and seal register boots from inside.
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Sizing can be less of an issue when you have multiple units. Because each unit is controlled independently, provided of course the unit itself is not over sized for the area in which it serves resulting in excessive short cycling. In your case 3 ton plus 2 ton isn't necessarily equal to 5 tons of cooling... unless you drive those thermostats really low. By having two systems with total capacity of 5 tons (which, most of the time this would be oversized for a 1700 - 1800 sq ft structure) has a few advantages. 1. You have the ability to use one system only during low heat days or set the opposing unit higher. The unit set higher only runs if load conditions warrant.... meaning if it's not hot, the thermostat controlling the unit does not call... the unit can not run without a call... 2. Utility bills can be much less... because you rarely use both systems at the same time. You run the bedroom system when you sleep, the other when you're awake. If you have a home office in one the bedrooms you may need to rethink things a bit. 3. Extra capacity for when it's hot out. When it's hot you have the capacity to cool the home. (even while entertaining guests --- additional people add heat) Remember heat waves come, heat waves go... a so call 'properly sized' AC system is essentially properly sized roughly 10% of the time... especially if that system is a single speed AC system. Alot of people I come across like to sleep cool. So for that reason I doubt I would change the configuration of the space. Once you realize what you have, the choices you make are mostly budget type concerns. Essentially a set up like this runs like a 2 stage system. This kind of subject is above the pay grade of many... choose your contractor wisely. I service the Katy, Texas area.
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Those types of units tend to be a lot more comfortable. As you noted they are more expensive and the cost of repairs tend to be much higher as well. I am not sure if trying to balance the cost of the new unit to save on electricity is worth it especially if your unit is still in good working order. If it were me, when replacement time comes around I would go with the most efficient single stage unit you can buy. I changed a 22 year old condenser with a modern 16 SEER unit and literally pocketed about $110.00 per month during the summer. Of course I am very pleased. I live in Texas, so it gets plenty hot here and air conditioning is a must. Maybe someone else will chime in and give you some useful feedback, unlike the mini split spammer.
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tigerdunes
5 years ago
disagree with above post...OP says system is aged...80% eff furnace existing...make the upgrade now and enjoy the operational savings and comfort...

IMO
tigerdunes
5 years ago
If I had the serial number, I could pinpoint age...but I suspect over 30 yrs old...110 BTU output at 80% efficiency....typically oversized for that era...

IMO
Eddie Douglas
Original Author
5 years ago
Tigerdunes the S/N# is G12Q3-110 2, I believe it was installed when this home was built in 1976 ! AC unit is a bit newer S/N# 5188C01950 - 1988 ??

I had one of the big HVAC "mechanical contractors" bid this job, a Trane dealer. He walked through the home with a laser measure and laptop; he size the hardware like you did; 60K BTU furnace and 2.5 ton AC.

Any idea how much of a savings with properly sized equipment ?

Is there a good reason why so many over sized the equipment ?
tigerdunes
5 years ago
that's the model number you listed, not ser number of furnace....ser number should give you the date of manufacture, last two digits....some dealers just like to oversize, most due to ignorance or laziness..,hard to say on AC, I would guesstimate a minimum of 25%...on heating you would go from 78% to 95% efficiency...that does not take in consideration though of going from 110 KBTU to 60 KBTU...I would think close to 50% in operating savings on heating alone.

IMO
Eddie Douglas
Original Author
5 years ago
I found the S/N #: 5876 F 02427
Eddie Douglas
Original Author
5 years ago
tigerdunes, would the lower BTU unit also have a lower purchase price ?
tigerdunes
5 years ago
that would be 1976, at least 40 plus yrs old...there should be some small savings involved in going down in furnace size, mainly from heat exchanger, blower motor, etc but don't expect anything big...keep in mind you will pay more for a 15 SEER AC over a 13 SEER...I thought 13 SEER models had been discontinued...you do want R-410 refrigerant and matching evap coil...

IMO
mike_home
5 years ago
Northern states still allow 13 SEER systems, in the south the minimum is 14 SEER. Why this mixed standard is allowed does not make sense.

If your old equipment made it to the day you put your house up for sale, the buyer is going want to negotiate some money off the sales price. I suggest do your homeowner now and plan for a replacement in the fall when things slow down for HVAC contractors.
Eddie Douglas
Original Author
5 years ago
Tigerdunes, you don't care for the Rheem product line ?
Eddie Douglas
Original Author
5 years ago
tigerdunes I got an account statement from my gas supplier for year 2017. My total gas bill was $758.00, total usage was 70.8.

Thank you for your responses to my post !
Eddie Douglas
Original Author
5 years ago
my only other gas appliance is a 40 gal. hot water heater.
Eddie Douglas
Original Author
5 years ago
Tigerdunes,
You had earlier written that you recommend R410-A refrigerant and the Bryant line of hardware. In the literature that I received from contractors, it looks like Bryant uses only Puron refrigerant. Is it just as good as R410-A ? Any disadvantages to Puron ?
Thanks !
tigerdunes
5 years ago
not to worry, Puron and R-410 refrigerant are the same...
ionized_gw
5 years ago
I understand the problem with horizontal flue gas pipes in place of the current chimney. Have you and your contractors eliminated the possibility of using the existing chimney with a kit for that application? It likely won't work if your chimney is partially exposed. it might work if the chimney is totally enclosed by the structure until it breaks the roof level.
Eddie Douglas thanked ionized_gw
PRO
Austin Air Companie
5 years ago
In some situations and certain circles Puron, R410a and even Freon are the same thing.

Freon will live on in infamy thru the lips of everyone for the foreseeable future.

Congratulations to Dupont and now Chemours Company....

If you called a cola a coke... what would that make pepsi or dr. pepper?
mike_home
5 years ago
Puron is the registered trade mark name of R-410A. It is always the same thing. Freon is the registered trade mark name of R-12, R-13B1, R-22, R-502, and R-503. R-22 is the refrigerant that has been used in residential HVAC equipment. Freon and Puron are chemically different and can't be mixed.
Eddie Douglas
Original Author
5 years ago
ionized_gw, My chimney/flue is totally enclosed until it breaks the roof level and is also used by the hot water heater. Some contractors have told me that it would be necessary to line the flue to eliminate the possibility of condensation as those gasses pass through an ice cold attic in the winter. No mention of any kit.
ionized_gw
5 years ago
If you get a condensing furnace, I am not sure that relining the way your contractors are describing it is even sufficient. Sometimes that means putting ceramic in previously unlined brick chimneys. Sometimes that means stainless pipe (maybe insulated) as an added flue. There are kits that put concentric, or perhaps individual, plastic pipes up your existing chimney for use with new condensing furnaces and boilers. They are pretty simple to install from what I've seen. The kits have concentric, flexible plastic pipe that is supported by built-in spiders touching the existing flue walls. You can put the intake and flue on separate locations, but I think that care is needed to be sure that wind won't affect overall pressure too much.

If the water heater uses the same flue it is problematic. Of course you can't share a plastic flue with a non condensing water heater. The gas is too hot. I don't know the rules for shared flues for condensing equipment either. If this were my home and I faced that plastic flue placement problem, I'd look into this detail. Using your existing flue for an existing gas, low efficiency water heater only is probably going to be problematic in itself because it will be too big for the appliance and cause condensation in cold weather. Google will be your friend here, but others on this board may know the detail as well.
weedmeister
5 years ago
"If you called a cola a coke... what would that make pepsi or dr. pepper?"

Yes.
PRO
Austin Air Companie
5 years ago
Freon as a brand... click on picture to enlarge it to read it.
Eddie Douglas
Original Author
5 years ago
Want to provide an update to this post. I had my new system installed about 3 weeks ago.

I went with a Trane System:

FURNACE: Model# S9V2B060U3VSAAA

COIL: Model# 4PXCBU42BS3HAAA

AC: Model # 4TTR6030J1000AA

HUMIDIFIER : Model # THUMD200ABM00B

AIR CLEANER : Aprilaire Model # 2410

THERMOSTAT: Model # XL824

My total cost after utility rebates is going to be $6,950.00. I'm sure that there will be a noticeable difference in heating and electric bills over the next 12 months. Tigerdunes, with all the advice that you gave me I'm confident that I made a good choice on the selections above. Thank you again for your help !
tigerdunes
5 years ago
a heck of a nice system with very good pricing as well. One thing. Did they install new refrigerant line set or reuse old?

TD
mike_home
5 years ago
Have you checked to see if there is enough clearance between the air cleaner and the wall for you to change the filter? The space seems too small.

They didn't install a condensate trap. I would recommend the clear EZ Trap type which are easy to clean. I would also recommend installing the EZ Trap float switch. This will shut down the furnace in the event the condensate line is clogged and prevent water damage in the basement.
tigerdunes
5 years ago
agree with Mike's recommendation about the condensate trap and float switch...

TD
Eddie Douglas
Original Author
5 years ago
Tigerdunes, they installed a new line set and routed the two PVC pipes along side of it. The AC condenser was bracketed to the side of the house.

Mike, they extended the bottom duct to allow enough clearance for easy filter changes.

I will look into the condensate trap and float switch.
tigerdunes
5 years ago
You can expect to pay for the trap and switch. Should have been included at your install. cost relatively cheap. Check back with your dealer this week. A great system. You should see some good savings on heating both efficiency and being sized correctly.

TD
sktn77a
5 years ago
^^^ Your spam is getting really old. I wish the moderators would block you.

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