I had already seen that and had to smirk. Of course,they must know better than I do how I like my food, and so seasoning with salt to my own taste would be offensive to their delicate sensibilities. No matter that I am paying them to prepare food for me, I must eat it the way they want me to. Pfffft.

One more reason for me to do my own cooking...

Annie

My thoughts exactly Annie.

A burger restaurant that refuses to serve ketchup? I would definitely go to that burger restaurant.

I was intrigued by the mention that customers steal the salt shakers and dishes. It would never occur to me to do that.

Colleen, maybe that's a recent thing as I never had that problem when we owned the restaurant either. Or maybe it's a city thing? Of all the things to take, salt is CHEAP, you'd think they wouldn't want to make themselves a thief over a penny's worth of salt and a shaker from a restaurant supply.

Annie

I’m sure they’re not stealing the $5/dozen shakers, they’re taking something more unique or identifiable as a memento from a high-end restaurant. Flatware gets stolen, too. I had friends whose flatware was made up of pieces from fine restaurants and hotels from around the world. Admittedly kind of trashy but everything had a story so it was kind of fun.

They said that the salt vessels being stolen were $50 each (silly them). A lot of people have sticky fingers. They call it "taking a souvenir" or "they have so many they'll never notice." Even if only one person in a 1000 takes one, they're all gone pretty fast.

AnnT. Visit Lars. That place is near where he lives.

Annie, those kinds of restaurants also think they know what temperature you should eat your meat at. Even if you insist on a different one, it won't come out right because they train their line cooks only to produce that one temperature, so they don't know how to make it the way you want it.

What's better service in a service industry? Refusing to serve ketchup because it is so universally (with some notable exceptions) liked? Or the Italian place that never thought to stock ketchup, where they sent a server to a neighboring eatery to borrow a bottle of ketchup to make their patron happy? We've had plenty of arguments about ketchup, but the point isn't whether it's good or true or right, but if the paying guest should be treated as a guest and accommodated, or whether wanting a bit of salt or ketchup or lemon or whatever puts the patron beneath the notice or care of the people taking his money.

The chef from the no ketchup burger place was on TV. He explained that he didn't serve ketchup because it has too much flavor. Silly. I haven't eaten in his restaurant, but in my whole life, I think I've met three hamburgers that didn't require condiments to be as good. There are plenty with no ketchup but other condiments that are delicious. Refusing to serve it is just ego, however.

Yeah, totally trashy.

I waited tables years ago at a high end restaurant where the rose was a theme. Thousands of women on dates/engagements/anniversaries stole teaspoons. For a while we tried to sell them. At cost. Like 3 people bought them. And the silverware continued to walk out the door.

We eventually gave up and replaced it all with plain flatware.

Women would ask "dont you have those rose spoons anymore?"

Nope.

But salt. Yes I have run into that recently. I dont salt stuff much myself.

I wish they'd use less salt in the kitchen and let me salt to taste. I have been finding a lot of already too salty foods coming out of restaurant kitchens. Very rarely want to add any, but I wish I could take some out with some frequency.

I wouldn't make myself a thief for a $50 salt shaker either, but I suppose many people would. I think it's a horrible reflection on today's society, though, that so many think it's OK.

Plllog, I agree on the "service". We always operated on the assumption that the customer was paying for their food and so got to dictate how it was prepared and served. Well done steak? No problem, although I was known to caution customers that it could become tougher than their companion's medium rare one. Could you please pick all the carrots out of my order of pot roast and give me more potatoes? Certainly, not a problem. Could I have two slices of cheese on my grilled sandwich, and break one into pieces so that the cheese covers all the bread all the way to the edge? Absolutely. Butter all the way to the edge of the toast, extra cup of gravy, just give me a container of vinegar and one of oil and I'll mix my own dressing, could I please have the end of the bread loaf/the center of the lasagna pan/the corner piece of tiramisu? Can you make sure none of my food touches on the plate? Could I get each component of my meal on a separate plate so nothing touches? Could I have no ice/extra ice/crushed ice/just crack the ice cube in half? (that one did get a sigh, I'm afraid, as I had to hold each ice cube in the cupped palm of my hand and hit it with the wooden muddler. Stung like crazy and it was a large iced tea...) And still, none of them ever stole our salt shakers or catsup bottles or coffee cups or flatware, go figure.

So, if I want a little salt on my food, I expect that someone is going to be producing a salt shaker. If the chef is offended I'd happily inform him that his dish is under seasoned and that his taste buds must be dulled from tasting all that food for seasoning. (grin)

Annie

In those fancy places people aren't paying for food, but for a food experience, so the great priests of food-turned-religiion are initiating people into the mysteries and salt has now been pronounced a sacrilege.

I had no idea salt was in such disgrace. I'd gladly bring my own salt shaker complete with good old rice grains into any of those temples.

No, I wouldn't make myself a thief even if the salt shaker was solid gold with diamond trim.

The "era of elite seasonings" vs "nasty little salt shakers." Shaking my head.

Chef Sota Atsumi, Paris Clown Bar: "“I go out to eat for pleasure, not moderation, and not an education. If I find it pleasurable to add salt to a dish, it should be my prerogative to do so.”

Owner of Simon & the Whale, Gabriel Stulman:“If I had to guess why you don’t see salt more often, I would say chef ego: ‘My food is seasoned; you don’t need to season it.’”

Annie -- I love reading your collection of requests and your business protocol!

Colleen -- Your phrase "I wouldn't make myself a thief" is perfect!

CathyinSWPA

At a yard sale years ago I was digging through a crate of 'junk drawer' misc. kitchen stuff and spotted some demi tasse expresso spoons perfect for spice jars etc. And some various butter knives so I grabbed them as well. Only once home did I notice they were from various airlines.

I totally get the salt issue. No need for it or pepper shakers. Maybe at a roadside diner or a truck stop meal. Cheap table salt has a chemical taste and any pepper that will come out of those tiny holes is from a finely ground vat and doesn't have much flavor being ground long ago.

I season and plate in my kitchen so I may use the pepper grinder but starting to wonder why it is such a habit to even pepper food if seasoned while cooking.

I do have a small wooden salt box on our table and use it sometimes. Something I cooked last week, since I don't use much salt in cooking, we both said at the same time, "needs a bit of salt"...I had not used any salt so a pinch at the table was perfect.

Miles of posts about fresh eggs, excellent pastured beef and pork, fresh garden harvest and locally grown fruits and veg in season and how much better it is. And it is!. Great restaurants are no different in wanting to serve the same. Whole spices ground fresh....etc.

I've been gifted some pretty fancy things. A sterling picture frame that looks like it came from the dollar store in my house, lol. And a glass salt thing, probably crystal and expensive and have no idea where it is! have not had eyes on it in years. Maybe a dinner guest took it, haha. (doubt that) but now I want to find it!

Time to put a salt shaker in my purse or hoard the little packets you get at fast food joints. Dad would have a fit if there would be no shaker, he salts before he even tastes. Drives me nuts but at 90 the tastebuds are starting to fail.

We went to a very fancy place last NYE and I could not eat the risotto at all due to the amount of salt. Trying not to ruin the evening I just was pushing it around on the plate and the manager noticed. I did confess that it was way too salty for me, it was quickly returned to the kitchen -- at the end of the evening I was given a new risotto to take home which the manager said he personally taste tested -- sampled it the next day and it was SO BLAND - needed salt!

I NEVER add salt to my food in a restaurant. Sometimes I'll let the wait person grind pepper on my salad, but that's it.

Sleevendog, any like these? My former neighbor, many, many moons ago worked for a laundry which did many of the linens of large airlines at Kennedy. Somehow flatware would make it into the laundry, but apparently the airlines didn’t want them back. These are among my favorite serving spoons, and most of the airlines are now defunct.

Susan, I wish they had a magical unsalter on the tables! The only thing I remember salting in a restaurant is tortilla chips, which are often brought to the table hot from the fryer with no seasoning, so you can add the salt and lime to taste. A friend likes French fries and often salts them. Most restaurant food, especially fine dining, is oversalted. It doesn't bother me when there's no salt on the table. I've been to lots of restaurants where it isn't. It's the ones that don't have one handy for a patron who wants it that bug me.

PKramer, Thanks for the visual! I can just imagine you going to the snobbiest place in NYC and leaving little Burger King salt wrappers on the table. :) That'd teach 'em!

>>Colleen -- Your phrase "I wouldn't make myself a thief" is perfect!<<

Can't take the credit- it's Annie's phrase (see her post above mine).

Will the burger joint that won't serve ketchup allow mustard? I haven't used ketchup in years... but mustard, now... essential to me.

Yes, I wish there was an "unsalter" at many restaurants. The only thing I ever salt when out are potatoes. If they're not Yukon gold, they're cardboard otherwise, and even if already salted, I find they always need more. (If I get diagnosed with high blood pressure, I'm giving up potatoes!!) I never order soup with large amounts of potatoes in it... the soup itself never needs more salt... often less... but those potatoes certainly do!

Restaurants should provide the salt and pepper if requested.

Last summer I went to a fairly high end (for cottage country) restaurant with some girl friends. I ordered their Halibut and fries which is very good and one of their specialties. Not cheap!

Now when I have fish and chips I need malt vinegar and salt. I noticed their was no salt on the table and when I asked the waiter for some he actually said " Our food doesn't require additional salt " and turned to walk away. I was stunned ! I called him back and told him I really preferred to add some salt to the fries and he reluctantly brought me some.

Other than that the food and service was excellent but I didn't leave a tip and I won't be going back there.....but damn those fish and chips were good.

But is this really new? I can remember many years ago being at a fancy Tuscan restaurant (remember those?) in Boulder and my aunt wanted grated parmesan for her entree. She got it, but only after a sustained argument with the waiter about how inappropriate it would be. And for those who think that today they'd just say no, all I can say is that you've never argued with my aunt. :)

Artemis, I don't know if they have mustard, but if they do. it's on a particular menu offering. You can only have the burger the way they make it. Even when McDonald's was all about the fast service of the big stack of burgers under a heat lamp, if you wanted one without ketchup, they'd make it. At Father's Office, you get what you get and if you're allergic to it, eat somewhere else (or so I just read on Yelp). Apparently the service is also snotty to a level Writersblock's aunt might not even have been able to penetrate. Not my thing. Just hearing the chef's attitude on TV was enough for me to know I never want to go near there. This place is only a couple of miles from the very best of Los Angeles fine dining. If I were near there and hungry, I'd just keep going. And for that matter, there's an In-'n-Out drive thru down the road where if they have the ingredients they'll make anything you can describe, just the way you want it.

It is a problem in the food industry. I suppose due to the popularity of food tv and celebrity chefs,chefs are forgetting that the restaraunt business is service industry. Some probably truly think that they are doing their customers a favor by allowing them to pay to be educated in how they are supposed to like their food prepared. Pasta has to be al dente whether you like it thay way or not. Steak must be medium rare. You dont know what you are supposed to like. Very condescending and annoying.

"Pasta has to be al dente whether you like it thay way or not."

This struck me as funny. I can't imagine anyone ordering pasta and asking them to over cook it.

That struck me as funny as well, ; )

I'm surprised at any restaurant not happily providing salt if asked for. Just doesn't happen here. Such high rents and so many dining choices. Many restaurants rely on the patrons that dine weekly in their neighborhood. No mater how high or low end.

A dozen years ago some chefs got a bit ruffled by special orders but realized they needed to step up and take the challenge or get out. Why they started PrixFixe menus. And now tasting menus. Those without dietary restrictions or picky needs can just enjoy what the chef offers. Yet another menu is available for others.

I do have a favorite lunch spot that has outstanding soup/salad/or half sandwich. A special every day but it is take-out and not unlike the soup guy in Seinfeld. No special requests. (they are French, lol). Daily menu online so we can check it and order or not.

I will not dine twice at a restaurant that doesn’t put salt on the table, no matter the chef or the price point — with one exception, Indian restaurants. I have the good fortune to live in an area with many excellent ones, ranging from fast-food walk-ups to gourmet, and I have yet to taste anything in one of them that needed salt. But. I still wish everyone put salt on the table. It just seems like a simple courtesy to me. Thanks, sushipup1, for that fascinating article.

Annie1992: "just crack the ice cube in half?" I am amazed you actually did that! I am more amazed it was requested!

Our local restaurants care more about making money from tourists than food/meal quality. Loud music and rush-rush-rush. We don't eat out much at all, but when we do I typically need to add seasoning, and I'd be upset if basic seasoning (salt and pepper) weren't made available. When we've dined out at fine restaurants in other areas, the food is usually perfectly seasoned.

Ok, I confess... I once stole the paper umbrella that decorated a margarita I drank on our first anniversary as a memento. I would hope they didn't re-use those...

I took several Bon Appetit cooking classes on a cruise a few years back. I was astounded at how adamant the chef was about salting the food especially pasta water. Too much salt in my view but she was really, really focused on salting.

I have never salted my pasta water or vegetable water and I really don't see the need. Most palates can't discern it as far as I'm concerned and we don't need that much salt in our diet. Having said that I always use salt in preparing most dishes...just not in water

I leave salt out of a lot of dishes, and I do NOT believe that salt enhances flavors in candy, especially chocolate. I do add small amounts of salt in desserts that are made with flour, but if they do not have flour, I omit the salt.

I do have a collection of wooden mid-century salt and pepper shakers, but they are mainly for looks, as I do not consider them practical for use. I do think they are pretty and decorative, however. On most of them, I cannot tell which is supposed to be salt and which is supposed to be pepper. I suppose I could put salt in both of them, since I only use pepper grinders for pepper.

What I hate is when restaurants fill the pepper shakes so full that no pepper will shake out. In those cases, I have to remove the lid and sprinkle the pepper. I almost never add salt to food in restaurants, but there have been rare occasions when I wanted it - mostly on salads that had oil and vinegar on them but no salt and no pepper.

I've not been to Father's Office in Culver City, but it's very close to Kevin's work. We do go to La Dijonaise, which is half a block from it, however, and Surfas Restaurant Supply used to be down the street from that, but it looks like they've moved about four miles up the street (Washington Blvd), making it a bit less convenient. HBO is putting a building where the old Surfas was :(. They changed their name to Surfas Culinary District also.

2Many, paper drink umbrellas are single use, like toothpicks. I promise you were welcome to take it, and if they noticed it was to hope you wanted a souvenir of a good time (i.e., that you liked the place). Generally, you can assume that anything that's actually in your food or drink, that's not a untensil meant to go in a dishwasher, is yours to keep. Sometimes bars have fancier gizmos than paper umbrellas to decorate the drinks with, and they sit on wood sticks to go in the drink, which are changed between uses, They do reuse the toppers, but still you're generally welcome to take them because they're in your drinks. If you're unsure, just ask.

Chase, the reason for salting the water is so that the water clinging to the food is seasoned rather than bland and watery. It's unnecessary if the pasta or veg will be well drained and dry before the sauce or whatever is added. The salt doesn't penetrate the food. Some people want the salt to transfer so they put an extraordinary amount of salt in the water. Way more than just to season the water. So it clings to the food as it's drained or something. I think it's a waste of salt since it's easier and more practical to just salt the dish after it's cooked.

The only thing I ever remember stealing from a restaurant was a bottle of malt vinegar in my long-ago youth. It sat in my refrigerator door for years. I'm quite certain alcohol was involved.

Re “al dente” it seems to me around the time that became a ubiquitous term here, restaurants started undercooking their pasta. At least to my taste. It’s possible that I overcook pasta; I stop before it gets mushy but I don’t like to have to chew my penne like it’s steak. Anyway that problem seems to have self-corrected as I’ve not complained about underdone pasta in a while.

I always look askance at those salt & pepper shakers that sit out at busy restaurants - ew. Same goes for the precious little bowls that I have to stick my fingers in, tho I have not encountered that at a restaurant yet. My sister keeps a bowl next to the stove, uncovered - no thank you!

And I prefer freshly ground pepper which actually tastes like something, and as others said above, I usually find restaurant dishes saltier than I would make them anyway.

Lars, I'm not wild about the salt/sweet thing either, I don't want salt on my caramels or on top of my cookies, although I do like salt a lot on other things. My Grandma used to even salt fruit like watermelon and apples, but I don't do that.

2many, we had a small establishment in a small village and although it was on a main highway north, we couldn't afford to lose customers. So, to stay in business we were a restaurant during the day, by 9 pm we turned into a bar with live music. I made homemade bread and rolled pie crusts with a Kessler's bottle and the customer was always right. Always. Sometimes I grumbled in the kitchen, but I'd boil the water for a "real" poached egg or crack those ice cubes in half, because it's the only way a small neighborhood place is going to be at all profitable in Northern Michigan out in the sticks.

FOAS, I agree on the pasta. I don't want it cooked to mush, but I don't want to chew for 5 minutes either. Al dente has become underdone, sometimes. I know you want some texture, but it shouldn't require several minutes of chewing either.

Annie

Wow! I'm glad I missed the chewing like steak pasta! I like it the real al dente, which is cooked through, just not waterlogged or spongy, though I can also appreciate .. fluffy? ... well hydrated pasta that's beyond al dente--it's soft and has no "tooth"--but is still not waterlogged or spongy. (ETA--Like in mac and cheese--I don't want mac and cheese al dente!) Recently, I saw a chef on TV talking about making pasta that was cooked past al dente and I think it must have been what I called "fluffy". It was for a dish, not just a plate of sauced pasta. I wish I remembered more about it.

Somewhere i remember hearing that “al dente” meant “to the tooth”—and that it pertained to harder vs. softer only insomuch as to what level of hardness or softness was pleasing to you.

I've always thought of it as the equivalent to "toothsome" in English. So then I checked the online dictionaries and they all have a different definition than I'm used to. They just say delicious. Then they give examples in context, where the definition I'm used to fits. The way I learned it and have heard it used, toothsome, while also denoting pleasure in consumption, means the food has a certain amount of resistance and chew, which releases the lovely flavor. Pudding (custard, mousse) is delicious, but not toothsome. It's squishy and barely solid. A pasty filled with chunks of meat might be toothsome. But apparently the word is often used with much less specificity.