Please help before finalizing kitchen design?

6 years ago

Thanks for all the help recently. We are gradually getting it narrowed down to a plan.. but still not done. Dining room is to right of drawing and den/garage to the left. We need a walkway. Current walkway is 29.5 and narrows to 25 where the trash can is currently kept. I have a walk in pantry (used to be a hallway but someone closed it in).

We need a larger walkway but we need a better kitchen layout too. I actually like the design below. But I need to see if the 13x24 wall on the lower left can be shortened to 16 deep instead of 24. And maybe could have 34.5 inch walkway on each side. We could choose a non traditional island as suggested here that is narrower and lose prep sink. We really need that lower bank of cabs for storage as well as for a landing spot for coffee maker etc as it will keep people away from cooking area. I can see myself being much happier with this layout than the current one.. but I will never have a 42 inch walkway around the whole island. Is it remodeling suicide to do this? Have any of you done it?

Current kitchen...

My ivar pantry that I really can’t lose..

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Comments (22)

herbflavor
6 years ago
remove 73 in wall on family room side...keep wall between kitchen and dining room....make an L kitchen on dining room wall and about 10-11 feet of the long back wall. Then utilize area that "blends" to family room for a larger island. A more open space, actual destination island, elimination of problems with your traffic lane widths. This is what I would do.
hss222
Original Author
6 years ago
Thank you! I will try to look at it this afternoon. The den is about 12 inches lower than the kitchen so not sure if it will work but will give it a try as a last option.
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Hi, Hmgbrd5. I really think the copper and blue would look wonderful, black counter not so much, but that's so subjective. Don't get cranky at feedback. Information like the view through the kitchen, and that you never ate in the kitchen in the first place, is critical to understanding from this side of the screen. I didn't know about the view line on reading your post, for instance. Half the people coming here are have no problem with it, but keeping the view genuinely nice would actually be just as important to me as you. And I really can see, now, the charming vignette of your blue hutch and table and chairs right by the doors to the garden. I like it a lot and my only thought for that area is how to make sure it develops into a beloved, very well used corner from mere vignette? Who do you believe will be using it? Do you have room for a table and chairs there? Would you set them diagonally? Would it be comfy enough for relaxing and chatting, or would a creaky, cushy old wicker chair do better (just DH and me here, and that would bring him in to keep him company while I worked)? In any case, since none of it's built in, it can develop over time. Back to the real, built-in-type ssues. I always look for where work would be performed (i.e., would I want to work there?). In your space that's going to be somewhere along the typical refrigerator-sink-stove production line, which, of course, forms the usual "work triangle" in some shape. What's good about your layout to me is that those three critical elements are very convenient to each other. The work triangle is entirely within your L-counter. Super. Except, Where's the really good work space to stand at day after day putting meals together? Even if you devoted the largish counter to the right of your sink to scullery, you don't have enough prep room to its left. Yes, there's island counter, but it's across an aisle from your production line; your triangle doesn't cross it. The only reason to go over there would be that you didn't have enough room in your triangle. NOT a good reason. You don't want to constantly be carrying stuff across to it from the refrigerator, over to the sink, back to the island, back to the stove. Or refrigerator to sink, then detouring to the island--when the stove was right there next to the sink. But, I do like the general openness of your layout and would want to keep that if it were mine, the area left of the stove couldn't be a kitchen mess-view for me either, and I don't like useless islands cluttering everything up and getting in the way. For me, the key to unlocking this puzzle would be giving your in-the-way island important function, literally becoming a self-contained work center of its own, by moving cleanup to it. Back to the L-counter: Without cleanup sink and DW, you would then have a wonderfully spacious and, I think, delightful work area overlooking the garden. It's so spacious that you could establish a complete meal preparation triangle there by putting a prep sink in the corner near the refrigerator, where veggies, etc., are stored. Thus, your production line would move smoothly counterclockwise from fridge, to sink/large main prep area, to stove, with pivots to drop used bowls, pots, etc., in the sink or directly into the dishwasher in the island. (My island-to-DW-counter distance is 39-3/4"--just measured, which is enough to turn, open and dump, and you have even more.) This would work very nicely for ME.... :) (Came back to correct left-right. Hope I got it together.) This post was edited by rosie on Tue, Jul 2, 13 at 18:01
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The dishwasher/peninsula thing? I don't know if I would do that - maybe cut the peninsula? It's for two reasons. You won't be able to put dishes away in those wall cabinets above and to the right of the dishwasher when the dishwasher is open. You also can't put stuff in the 33" base. I don't know where "hutch" is located, but if the peninsula is between the dishwasher and the hutch, the peninsula will be annoying. Second reason is a waste of space for not much benefit. Lotta fillers when straight counter gets you slightly more usable base cabinet - at least a 36" base. It's hard to tell without a complete floor plan, but depending on what's on the other side near the ref... maybe make a peninsula on that side? Kill the ref angle base cabs, move the pantry to the left side of the ref (as drawn), but further away from the doorways and perhaps have it open towards the doorways. Run a seating counter on the right side of the ref? You might be able to push the ref cabinets over enough to trade the angle base and tiny cab next to the range out for a 18-21" regular base cabinet.
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I don't think I want to swap the kitchen and nook. Mama goose - that first pic is pretty much what I was thinking. As for the pinch point in the kitchen, I do not want to shorten the island at all. What do you think about moving the nook wall back into the master a bit so it would be flush with the kitchen cabinets? Then we could move the island closer to the cabinets (looks like he has way too much room there anyway) and have a better flow around the eating side of the island. I have thought about turning the island or making it more of an L, but I don't think I want to do either. As for the overhang, I think he just drew it funny. I am actually having the cabinet maker do the kitchen design and I'm not sure my builder has the island placement or overhang drawn correctly. There will be just one row of cabinets and I know we discussed overhang measurement, especially if we decide to do granite on the island.
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That kitchen makes no sense at all. You have only 3 mimsy little sections of countertop to work on (besides the island). But the island is clearly designed primarily for eating. Think of this: When you're baking or prepping a turkey, where do you put the big stuff as you work? You have no counter section big enough to hold the turkey pan and the bowl of stuffing as you fill the bird, no counter section big enough for a cookie sheet and a stand mixer. And don't suggest doing the raw turkey on the island, because there is no sink there for it and the island is for eating; you don't want raw turkey goop on the island. You have no continuous countertop flow between the sink and the stove (because of the oven), so every drippy thing has to be carried across the floor because there's an oven in the way. Slip hazard. And with the freezer, pantry, and wine/coffee bar 25 feet away, it gives the sense that the whole 625 sq. ft. space is kitchen. There's no place to put a dining table that allows it to have its own space. It will always look like a kitchen table, caught in the cross traffic between two 6-foot doorways. Do-over.
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damiarain
6 years ago
Welcome back! I think there's some good stuff here... some questions:

- definitely find out about that 24" wall - it's very jutty into the walkway =)

- do you need a 36" cooktop? The larger the cooktop, the larger the hood should be. Having a 30" cooktop will give up back some more lower cabinet space.

- speaking of, the 12" cabs on either side of the cooktop - depending on the framing and door type, it might not be close to 12" of usable space (another reason to shrink the cooktop). granted spice/utensil/baking sheet storage solutions generally don't need too much space

- the oven, is it a wall oven? if so, could the microwave go above it? If the microwave was out of the island, there'd be space to move the trash over there (it's where I think I'd prefer it - at the trash's current location, when it's open, kind of boxes in the sink user)

- I would prefer to try and keep some sort of prep sink - that keeps the DW out of the work triangle

- your walk-in pantry is behind the 'bottom' wall right? with the doorway on the left side? what are its dimensions?

- for storage, maximizing it is great! I think it's worth really planning out what storage you need/are missing... lisa_a has a really great example of how she planned for storage in her kitchen renovation (check her comment about halfway down [this thread[(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/bring-it-on-additional-floor-plan-options-open-to-critique-help-me-dsvw-vd~5050494))
User
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Hire an actual KD. Not a cabinet seller trying to cram in as many cabinets as possible for a higher priced sale. Lots of tile violations. But the biggest and wrongest is the aisles.

The aisle widths are absolutely undoable.
hss222
Original Author
6 years ago
Damiarain - thank you for your help! I am still toying with the idea of using the galley-ish layout that you brought up before. I think it is probably the only way to get what we want and have a walkway for people to use that's out of the way of cooking, but we have so many things to store that I was worried about space to do so. Thought about using 4 billy bookcases with oxberg half glass doors along that bottom wall, but not sure if that's really enough, if it will look good (maybe with molding?) or just wind up being a regret.. and will it store what I want it to?

I think of all the things in the kitchen, we really wanted the 36 inch cooktop. But I can see what you mean about storage space options.. We frequently run out of room when cooking several batches of food to freeze, especially if there are several soups or stews on at once. We are planning to use ikea cabinets no matter what, if that helps. I like the idea of having the prep sink too, because of the same reason you mentioned.

Pantry is below the bottom wall, the door is facing the small hall that goes to the laundry and garage. It is 90 inches deep and 43 inches wide. It was full of wire shelving when we moved in.. I removed it, painted it, redid the flooring and put the ivar shelves in.

I truly don't have to have an island. It just really bugs me to have a walkway that goes through the middle of my kitchen cooking zone. If I did the math right... we could have the billy bookcases x 4 on that lower wall.. 25 inch wide island that separates the walkway from the cooking area, a 36 inch wide walkway and a 39 inch cooking zone. I'm just not sure if it's enough storage that way. I tried out the idea that herb brought up but am having a hard time visualizing it.

My KD is recommending shrinking island to 18 inches. I think it may just have to go, but I do. not. want. to be cooking on that lower wall.
lisa_a
6 years ago
I'm with Sophie. Your proposed plan isn't workable.

Besides the narrow aisles, placing your fridge against the wall is going to prevent you from fully opening the doors to pull out fridge drawers. Just ask patty_jean who recently posted about her Fridge door dilemma in her new home.

Here's how wide my door on my French door fridge needs to open in order to pull out the drawer.
It's the same for the left door to pull out the veggie drawer. And I need to open both doors all the way to pull out the meat and cheese drawer that runs the full width.

The only way to make a fridge work against a wall is to go with a single door fridge with a right hand hinge. Or a built-in or fully integrated fridge that requires very little side clearance to access the fridge drawers. Your fridge needs to find another home.

How wide is your DR? Judging by the kitchen's size and your home's suspected age, I'll get it's about 10'-12' wide. If so, you don't have room for counter seating because you won't have the recommended 60" aisle (not even close) for back to back seating. You either need to shift the peninsula to the left or lose the counter seating.

As pointed out above, you have limited counter space and IMO, you don't have enough to go with separate cooking appliances.

A wide U with the fridge on the bottom wall fixes the above issues (save my concern about aisle space between peninsula and DR table).

This is what I mean:

The fridge doors can open, no problem. You don't have to walk past the cook top and wall oven to go from fridge to sink. Plus, family and friends can grab drinks without entering the cooking zone.

You have room to work on both sides of the cook top (30" in plan but you can adjust cabs to fit a 36" cook top), on the peninsula and on the deep counter next to the fridge.

I replaced the BCC with drawers on the kitchen side and a base cab facing the DR. You need drawers for dish towels, dishes, silverware, etc.

I put the trash pull-out under the sink. Here's mine under my single bowl with off-set drain sink:

Here's a trash pull-out under a double bowl sink.
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If desired, you could add an appliance garage next to the oven cab:
lisa_a
6 years ago
Nice plan, The Cook's Kitchen! Is that designed with a CD fridge or a full size fridge?
PRO
User
6 years ago
That's a counter depth. But, there is so much room on that lower wall that if a range was chosen instead of a cooktop and wall ovens, there would be room for something like the Frigidaire All Fridge and All Freezer. Tons more storage.
hss222
Original Author
6 years ago
Thank you all so much! DR is indeed 11.5x11.5... I am toying with the idea of moving the china cabinet/buffet on the right into another room. It is primarily used to display glass decorative items. I am considering putting a few cabinets in here on the right where the buffet currently is, along with a narrow countertop to house coffeemaker, etc. Would this be too far away from the fridge in either of your guys' suggestions?

Also the table as is in this picture is fully extended. We just haven't taken out the middle part to return it to a 6ft length. We do not place chairs at either of the short ends - so if I try to look into keeping the overhang on the peninsula, what distance do I need between the bar/barstools and the edge of the table? Is it still 60 inches or less since no seating at the table would bump into the bar stools? Thank you!
lisa_a
6 years ago
You're welcome!

To make sure I understand you correctly, you took this photo from the kitchen/DR entry, right? If so, then you can get by with only 44" between peninsula and table. This is from the NKBA (National Kitchen and Bath Association).

Your table doesn't look to be very wide - 36"? - but even so, I don't think you have enough room to add anything more than display cabinets.

138" room width

- 36" table width

______

102" remaining or 51" per aisle, which is just a little more than the recommended minimum.

Pre-remodel, we only had 40" between our island and kitchen table but the island didn't have any cabinets that faced the table so it was doable. People walked through; they didn't hang out here getting coffee or whatever. I'd think you'd want at least 15" deep counters, which means your aisle would be slide past width. I'd find that a PITA.

Now if you're willing to swag the chandelier and shift it off-center in the room towards the window with a 44" aisle between table and window and a 58" aisle between table and wall, then you'd have room for shallow cabinets and counters without short-changing the aisle.
hss222
Original Author
6 years ago
Thanks. We are willing to move chandelier - may be able to do it when wall comes down between kitchen and dining. If not we will have to swag it. I think the cabinets will work in the dining room and help me solve some of that issue. I like keeping the fridge along the current wall like both of you have done. I am totally in love the banquette because this completely solves the issue of having my 7m/o in the kitchen with me once she gets a little bigger and not having her under foot. I could even keep part of the window that the original design has us removing. I like that in those designs the fridge can be opened appropriately!

However, I simply cannot get my husband to agree to a movable island/cart for prep space! He cooks almost as much as I do.. I am almost hoping the carpenter says tomorrow that the 13x24 wall cannot be shortened so the island can finally just die. I would have been fine with a narrow island for prepping/alternative open bottomed sofa table style just to have an extra spot. I just cannot see that it will fit, even at 15 inches deep, if the fridge is on the lower wall.

How silly would it look to have a small peninsula over there on the right of the sink for prepping with no seating? Could that even be functional for us so far away from the stove?
lisa_a
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Not silly at all! I don't think you need to have counter seating if you have table seating in the DR and a banquette area.

Mayflowers has a peninsula without seating. She has bookcases and storage on the backside of her peninsula.

Scrappy25 also has a peninsula without seating.

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Personally, I don't think every island or peninsula needs seating, especially if space is limited and there are already plenty of places to sit. I have an island without seating. It's 38" deep (11" deep cabinets on the backside). I love using it for prep.
Backside:
Cabinets on backside:
hss222
Original Author
6 years ago
thanks again! is it too far from the stove to be used as a prep spot? i was hoping to use it for that because hubby wants to take out the banquette area so he can have more cabinets there for storage and counter for prepping.
hss222
Original Author
6 years ago
Is there any other possible location for fridge? Can it go on that wall on the the left den side next to the Susan, and a garage placed on top of the countertop next to it?
lisa_a
6 years ago
Do you mean where I placed the wall oven? Not if you put a cab around the fridge. My fridge cab is the absolute narrowest we could get away with and it's still 38 1/8" wide. The wall would need to be at least 2" so that you can fit a fridge cab plus a 36" Super Susan and have a little wiggle room because things aren't likely to be perfectly square.

But I don't see what that gains you. The normal path for prepping a meal is fridge to sink to counter to range (ice-water-stone-fire). Putting the fridge at the far left places your fire between ice and water and adds more steps for meal prep.

Would your budget stretch to moving the window? Or adding another? I have an idea, let me draw it up. Stay tuned.
lisa_a
6 years ago
I get the sense that the desire for an island was to be able to prep without facing a wall. Is that correct? And that if he can't have an island, he'll prep on the peninsula but he thinks it's too far from the cook top to be used as prep space? Is that all correct?

If so, then perhaps this plan might work:

I swapped sink and cook top location, assuming that the window can be moved. If not, we'll figure it out.

I eliminated the return on the left wall to give you more room between sink and cook top and some room between cook top and peninsula. I added suggested locations of uppers on the top wall.

Ovens moved to same wall as fridge but I didn't bump the counter out to 30". There's cabs and counter between fridge and ovens so that you have a spot to put fridge items down and to avoid door ding issues between ovens and fridge.

I also added an 18" deep section, 55 1/2" long, for coffee maker, etc. This puts it near the table without crowding the table aisles.

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Oops, I forgot to mark cabs for the peninsula. You'd have room for 43" of cabinets, divide it up however you need to (ditto for all other cab sizes).

Thoughts?
cpartist
6 years ago
What is your hubby's objection to a moveable island? I ask because Cook's version is wonderful.
hss222
Original Author
6 years ago
I honestly don't know. He just 'doesn't like it'. I don't know if it has to do with years of living in apartments with too small kitchens and having to have one or what. The one that we did have was kind of usable, but was hard to cut on because it just wasn't stable enough. So I guess maybe that's it. Maybe if there was a movable island that was extremely stable he could be convinced.

We bought this house knowing things would need to be fixed and updated.. and that it's not our forever home. I don't want it screwed up for whenever it is that we sell it in the future, whether it's 2 years or 10 years. I showed him all of the suggestions here and I think he finally sees that even if there is no island, there is still way more usable counter space in all the designs than what we have now and he sees the value in all of the drawings.

I think whenever it is we buy the next house.. if the kitchen will ultimately need redoing.. I will find a KD to take with us and tell us what it could be so we don't wind up in this mess again.
hss222
Original Author
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Lisa - thanks for the new ideas! I talked about all of the ideas here and showed them to my husband, we are going to talk about it a little more and decide what we're doing pretty soon. I don't know if I like the look of a fridge cabinet around a fridge that sticks out so far anyway - it almost just looks halfway done? so there's that, but I know other people tend to prefer it.
hss222
Original Author
6 years ago
Part of the reason we didn't want to put the fridge on the wall with the 24" deep short wall is that our fridge sticks out so much. I had never heard of an all fridge or all freezer until now. If we went that route.. do they have to be side by side? Sorry if a silly question.. just thinking one could go on one end, one on the other, and two cabs in the middle with 2 uppers and a short countertop if that makes sense
lisa_a
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
What happened to Cook's suggested plan? Did she or someone delete it? That would be unfortunate. It was really good.

Do you mean putting the fridge and freezer on the bottom wall, separated by cabinets, heartdiy? Yes, you can separate them; they are separate units. You'd need to reduce the length of the peninsula. The Frigidaire all fridge and all freezer are 32" wide each. On the plus side, they are counter depth.

Tons of storage and at a good price point, considering their size.
hss222
Original Author
6 years ago
I saved pictures of it.. not sure where it went. Still thinking about all the ideas. If we put the all fridge and all freezer beside each other next to that short wall, then we could avoid shortening the peninsula. Trying to convince hubby about the banquette. Looking for shorter options. As much as I'd love to DIY the banquette.. it may be better just to purchase.