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  • 5 years ago

    Holy cow. I thought the genus haworthia was a mess. That whole area and everything in it is just a total mess! The poor guys obsessing over stripes, bumps and leaf shape really could never have figured it out when the science did not exist. Sheesh.

    In the end, though, in order to adapt to goat herds, bulldozers and thieving poachers, all of these plants are going to have to learn to fly.

    Thanks for the docs, gabby! I think I need at least two more readings.

  • 5 years ago

    taxonomy in general for all organisms is a total mess right now... phylogenetic data is great but there are a lot of methods to code dna and sometimes, quite frequently actually, you get different results and/or the data can be interpreted differently.

    I got sean's paper uploaded this morning too. I am trying to download as many papers as possible before I graduate and loose my access so feel free to send me any papers you want in full.

    I've been trying to get my hands on Bayer's keys... those i do not have access to.

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    In_awe - My 2xT5HO were 4" away from my plants. They did very well with 10000 lumens at that height. I do agree that lumens aren't a very good measure, lux/fc are better, and PAR is the best. One problem I find with a single number for measuring output is that light distribution with T5HO and LED lights is not uniform. Light distribution end to end and from center to sides is quite important to me because I have a limited grow area. My target light level is 24 PAR DLI for my high light succulents and 10 PAR DLI for my Haworthia. Roughly that's 1200-3000 fc, depending on the plant. Some of my Haworthia only need 250-500 fc. Required light levels differs significantly. In general, I've found truncata/emelyae/hard-leaved species to be quite resilient and take a lot of light. Obtusa/retusa are middlish. Picta and springbok don't like it too bright and marxii pretty much stay in the shade. I'm curious to hear other's experience with this! If you're looking to increase your light levels to get more colourful Haworthia, the two easiest ways are decreasing fixture height slightly or increasing the duration the are on. Pagan - Good luck with your experiment! If you don't already have a fc/lux meter, $10 on ebay is well worth it for purely relative light measurements. Nil - I already have a PAR meter and two lux meters (one is owned by my work), but for curiosity's sake I've contacted my local Apogee dealer to see how much they are charging for the SQ-520. Hopefully will hear back from them tomorrow. Think I need to do some more overtime to pay for all these toys!
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  • 5 years ago

    Thanks, Gabby

  • 5 years ago

    After three very dark cloudy days on a south facing windowsill, my tessellata has gotten significantly greener (which isn't what I want). I didn't think it could happen that fast. Wow. So I'll probably put it under grow lights where it also gets sun from the same direction. This one stays inside.

  • 5 years ago

    Gabby, that was very interesting reading. I have always agreed with Bayer's reasoning that there are only about 70 Haworthia species with huge variations, not the hundreds that Breuer and Hayashi postulate. The sampling bears this out and also points out that the variations are very small between the Haworthia species.

    I think that Bayer's keys were published in his book "Haworthia Revisited" or in a hard copy in one of the many journals he has written for but not online. On that subject, is there any way for you to get hold of "Bayer, M. B. and J. C. Manning. 2012. A rationalization of names in
    Haworthia: a list of species with new combinations and new
    synonyms. Haworthia Update, Essays on Haworthia, vol. 7. Preston:
    Alsterworthia International."? That seems to be Bayer's most recent taxonomy.

    I liked the reasoning around the sections of Haworthiopsis as published by Sean Gildenhuys. The links with Gasteria, Gonialoe, Aristaloe, Tulista and Astroloba that Manning shows are intruiging, especially that odd little outlier Koelmaniorum. This work is also borne out in practice by the facts of which genera and species will hybridise amongst the Alooids. It will be interesting to see what finally gets done with Haworthia.

    I was also interested in the relationships with the grass aloes, Chortolirion (formerly Haworthia) and H. blackburniae. DNA sampling correctly places blackburniae as an intermediate between the grass aloes and Haworthia and it's interesting to me that they talk about evolutionary switching from bird pollination to insect pollination and that the grass aloes are found in higher rainfall areas. Some grass aloes make haworthia flowers (insect pollination) but some make aloe flowers (mostly bird pollination). The extreme succulence that haworthia have developed is obviously a response to the environment but the other creature that comes to mind is the African wildcat, native to arid environments. Bird pollination would be too risky that low to the ground. One thing I have noticed is that only my tall Aloe arborescence ever makes seed. The other aloes are low and within easy reach of my cats and although I have plenty of sunbirds in my garden, I never see them on the aloes, they stick to the taller plants like leontis or the A arborescence.

    Gasteria seem to have gone from insect pollination back to bird pollination from an evolutionary perspective. Perhaps their habit of growing on rock faces and under bushes makes it safer for the birds

  • 5 years ago

    It's always interesting to hear about how things grow and bloom for other people. We sort of assume that if the climate is similar the plants will behave similarly, but with pollination all bets are off. My Aloe set seed like crazy because we have a ton of hummingbirds and while the feral cats do occasionally prey on them, they don't have much of an effect on population. Those hummingbirds also pollinate the Gasteria pretty well too. The Haws are less likely to get pollinated by the hummingbirds because they seem to only hit the large Haw flowers. The honeybees take care of everything else and considering a neighbor has a half dozen hives we have a lot of bees.

  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I noticed that about the H. koelmaniorum as well. It has been outed as an odd mongrel. I imagine it's a useful tip for anyone who'd want to try breeding more pronounced tubercles into the thing.

    I was specifically looking at cooperi var dielseana---this is the only non-clumping cooperi that I know of. I might have missed it.

  • 5 years ago

    Pagan, what do you mean by non-clumping? Do you mean not grow in huge heaps like the one you have?Dielseana is also sometimes referred to as H. joeyae. I have a little one, it's the tiny orange seedling that I posted a while back. They do pup but not in heaps. The heaped one is sometimes called pilifera, although there is also a cooperi truncata that does pup but stays flat. I can do pictures of the above when I get home from work. The names are a mess and they seem to have all been lumped as cooperi and the continuity with cymbiformis is something I can attest to: there are many more cooperis and cymbiformis avaible here than are likely to be seen in the US and they become hard to tell apart.

    Gabby, I managed to track down the Manning & Bayer 2012 revision I asked for, I can upload it to the rest of your pdfs if you like.

    Nil, our nectar drinkers aren't able to do the hovering that your hummers can. They perch and that is why aloe flower stems are thick and robust. They couldn't begin to get at haw flowers

  • 5 years ago

    I only own 2 Haworthias, but I'll still share... even though I'm no where close to being an expert on these chubby lil cuties.

    Haworthia turgida v. suberecta

    August 2017

    Late May/early June 2018 (same plant, blooming)

    It has since fully bloomed fully and I cut off the stem. This is actually the 2nd time it has bloomed since I've had it. It had just finished blooming in the first picture, so I think it was early August 2017 last time it bloomed. I purchased it at the Meijer Fredrick Gardens in Grand Rapids Michigan. It has remained pretty healthy since I got it.

    Haworthia Cuspidata

    I just purchased my 2nd Haworthia from The Plant Shop Chicago a few weeks ago. Isn't she beautiful? I love it. I feel like it has grown more vertically and closed up a little horizontally since I've had her. Maybe change in light?




  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    April: Nice plants! Your H. turgida might actually be Haworthia turgida var pallidifolia like this:

    Haworthia turgida var. suberecta have rounded, truncated leaf tips and looks like this:

    Nik: I mean that H. cooperi var dielsiana is known to grow in solitary rosettes (also known as H. dielsiana, H. pilifera var. dielsiana, H. obtusa var. dielsiana, H. joeyae--argh lol). It's one of my first batch of 5 haworthias and in the 6 years I've had it, it has stayed solitary.

    p.s. oh..non-clumping lol maybe I just cleaned the litter box when I typed that?

  • 5 years ago

    Thanks Pagan. I got that first one ID'd on this website back when I first got it, and someone mentioned that was what it was, so I went with it. When I google both var. it gives me same pictures that look a lot like mine, but also some different. I don't mind much, since I am not an avid collector, although I might be if finances allowed! :) Thanks for sharing.

  • 5 years ago

    Hehe, not an avid collector. You say that now, I'll give you a year. For example, want to adopt some? lol

  • 5 years ago

    Lol, I'd love to adopt more. They are hard to come by to buy locally here in Chicago. And so expensive to purchase online, seems.


    https://www.houzz.com/discussions/haworthia-id-and-question-dsvw-vd~4788624 

    Here is the post I was referring to. A little throw-back to when I first got it and some in this community kindly helped me ID it.

  • 5 years ago

    Ah I see. I'm not familiar with the ID that Harry gave, but I am pretty sure about the ID of my plants. By that I mean I got my haworthias from growers who are sure of their IDs and say so if they're not. These particular turgidas were from Arid Lands.

    Remind me of the adoption thing in autumn which is the best time to get haworthias. I'll probably post my too-many-haworthias then, as well.

  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    New acquisitions. I really want more species plants but have been having a hard time finding them without paying $8 per plant for postage.

    Here are the names given. Let me know if you think they're accurate, right down to the abbreviation between the names. Plants are in the sun only for photos. Lava rock is top dressing.

    Haworthia Mystery plant. This is where they give you a plant of their choice at a discount. I'm thinking it's planifolia, possibly variegated, which they sell, based on the leaf on the far left.

    Not one I would choose, but I knew it was a gamble. I'll get to like it. Brown or broken leaf ends drive me nuts, along with me not being able to center the plant.

    H. retusa f. geraldii


    H. turgida v. pullidifolia
    [sic] (pallidifolia)

    I like turgidas and finally have my first one. One of you guys wrote on another thread that it's related to retusa, which is probably why I like them. I'd like to know the family history of how it's related. Pagan's suberecta is super cool (what a monster root).

    I like that plant adoption idea.

  • 5 years ago

    I'll trust you on that Pagan! And Jeff too, as I see you also own a pallidifolia. In terms of watering, I've found that soaking the pot from the bottom for a few hours often leads to the leaves really plumping back up, if they're really deflated looking.

    Have you found for the H. turgida v. pallidifolia and H. Cuspidata that they do better indoors on a bright windowsill, or would they be ok outdoors too? I am moving and will have some outdoor space for my plants, so I was thinking of having them living out there. But if not a good idea, I'll keep them in on a windowsill.

  • 5 years ago

    April, I assume you're asking Pagan and not me. I don't want you to think I'm ignoring you.

    I'd still like confirmation on my IDs from previous comment if possible from anyone.

    Here is the retusa geraldii (I think).

  • 5 years ago

    My haworthias are the first to exit the basement in spring and they stay there until early December. In general, it is I who feel better when my succulents are finally outside. After a couple of weeks, I'll see spider webs all over (easily identified with magnifying glass) and that makes me finally relax.

  • 5 years ago

    You relax with spiders all over your plants?! I'm not allowed to tell my wife they potentially had spiders or spider webs.

    I think Haworthia do better where the nights are cool and daytime light is good. Right now that's outside for me except a couple of our sweltering hot days.

    Watering is so much easier and faster outside and that makes me happier too. =)

  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    So when I take my pots outdoors, I get about two to three weeks when I can move them around to find the most appropriate spot, right? After that, I can NOT move them around anymore because you can see the strands of webbing connecting all the plants (that's the dead giveaway that what you have are spiders, not mites). It's a highway system like doozers built them.

    Spiders are awesome. They help me clean up wannabe infestations. If I have more than one species (usually I have about 4 different ones, although I don't know what they are; they could also be male and female of two species since they're sexually dimorphic).

    Fortunately, I don't have one of those wife-things. My husband has one (me) but the freak likes spiders.

    Jeff: No clue. Looks like cymbiformis to me, the leaves are wide and they're fairly widespread. Give it a full season and let's see how it manifests its true character in your care and if the variegation is stable. H. planifolia will have the tell-tale grid marking on the leaves, kind of like H. venosa, just fainter. Look at photos on Mountain Crest Gardens, they sell variegated planifolias.

  • 5 years ago

    ISI comes through with some winners this year. While they are a bit later with their offerings, they are beautiful plants.


  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I potted couple of Haws in tall pots; they seem to grow quite vigorously. Perhaps it is just my wishful thinking, lol...but it seems to me that they do grow bigger-faster, or pup more than others in typical pots (most of my 4" pots are 3.5 to 4" tall):



    These pots are oblong, 4x2.5" on top, and are 5.5" tall. Getting crowded...

  • 5 years ago

    Rina. Great pots. I like. Cost?

  • 5 years ago

    Howard

    I only have 2, and something I bought last year for garden was potted in them...I do not even remember what it was! But for sure not succulents. Sorry...

  • 5 years ago

    I never thought about the taller pots, but it makes good sense, since they have such substantial root systems.

  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Those are beautiful plants, Howard.

    Jeff, that is a retusa but I am not sure if it is a Geraldii I will post a picture of a Geraldii later when I am home from work. Geraldiis can look like that if the light is poor but they are supposed to have quite a wide, angular leaf form and there are little dashes among the white lines. Other retusas are smaller and the leaf form is flatter

  • 5 years ago

    Spiders prevent me from lifting individual pots so it'll have to be group shots:


  • 5 years ago

    More?

    You've met all these plants before so I won't bother with IDs. I have new plants just rooting, they're not ready for prime time but what the hey!

  • 5 years ago

    Those types of tall plastic pots are called "tree bands". They were developed for tree seedlings with tap roots.

    http://www.growers-inc.com/containers/anderson-deep-tree-bands/

  • 5 years ago

    Nil

    I was looking for pots I have, and found lots of tree bands/tree pots on line. Didn't find depth of the pots on site you linked to, most I have seen are quite deep but am sure they will work well for many haws.

  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Someone/place that sells Haworthias also sells deep pots, but I can't remember who it is. I don't think they're inexpensive enough to buy in bulk like nursery pots though.

    nik, I'd love to see your geraldii whenever you have time.

  • 5 years ago

    Oops I did it again.



  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    You guys (and by that I always mean gals too) are hopeless.

    Those are going to look fantastic.

  • 5 years ago

    Rina, here is the Anderson site. They have dimensions listed. The tree bands are generally pretty tall and skinny but some are more squat. Sometimes the squatter ones are called rose bands.

    http://www.andersonpots.com/products/anderson-bands/

  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Well it was the CSSA preview sale day at the Huntington. It's like the 'Running of the Brides' at Chicago's Filene's Basement except with plants instead of bridal gowns. Lol

  • 5 years ago

    Pagan, that's a nice looking parksiana clump you have there.

  • 5 years ago

    Thanks, Nil. I've already lost the parent rosette (2 to 3 years ago?) and it left a hole in the middle. But it has filled out now. It boggles my mind that the entire clump is only 3 inches across.

  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    So talking about tree bands. Here's a Haemanthus coccineus I picked up today....in a tree band. 3x3x9

    At first I was skeptical but then I turned it over.

    Looks like a craft square at the bottom. I bet that saves a lot of space when the bulbs are dormant. Oh yeah, and those are some big air pruned roots.

  • 5 years ago

    Pagan, yeah well that's why I think it's a nice clump. Lol. I have one coming back in four pieces.

  • 5 years ago

    Also, excuse the lack of prices. I posted the pics on the 'new aquisitions' post and I didn't want to freak out the normals. They weren't that bad.

  • 5 years ago

    I showed y'all my new haworthia limifolia variegated a bit ago but I was outside today fusing w/plants when I discovered something wonderful...


    BABIES!

    I'm thinking they aren't going to have any variegation at all sadly but I'm hoping as they get a bit bigger they'll be some slight markings on them. Either way I'll still love them!

  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Hmm. I don't know, Wil. The photo shows much lighter coloration on the leaf edges there---they look variegated to me. Congrats! Nice limifolia (now haworthiopsis, and someone worked overtime to update most wikipedia entries, I noticed).

  • 5 years ago

    Nil, you’ve got much nicer color on your Tsukikage and Vector than mine. They need a rotation out in my driveway greenhouses for a few months.



  • 5 years ago

    Don't I have those, doc lol

    Also, I killed my cocklebur during winter, it would seem. Not sure what happened---serves me right, I guess. It was in the "ignore" section of my winter shelf. I hope your friend has more.

  • 5 years ago

    Pagan, what’s “Cocklbur”? Vector is available and I’ll ask about the other.

  • 5 years ago

    Here are a couple I hope to purchase soon.

    Green Island


    Black


  • 5 years ago

    @Pagan - You must be after my heart with a comment like that! I sure hope so!!

  • 5 years ago

    Jeff, your Retusa geraldii picture:

  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Pagan

    Waiting for 300 posts to go to pg 9 ?...:)

  • 5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Congrats! You got the 300th, Rina lol But no; if i was waiting for a number, it would probably be 307 and I'll leave it for the guessing.

    [So, Page 9! [(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/haworthians-page-9-dsvw-vd~5375449?n=319)

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