A tall fescue lawn in a northern California winter is going to look a bit bedraggled, and hardly grow much. The thinning of the grass is probably due to lack of sufficient irrigation suitable for best growth in the hotter months, in combination with insufficient top soil with organic content added before you sodded it, and not fertilizing often enough to encourage better health and growth of grass. How many inches of topsoil did you add before rototilling, and how often and which months do you fertilize, and what is the N-P-K ratio of the fertilizer you are using? As to whether 20 minutes of spray irrigation is sufficient for a lawn in northern California conditions, especially if applied 4 times a week on a flat site, if anything this is overwatering, even with heavy root competition from the redwoods and oaks across the fence. It looks to me that you need to build up soil fertility in both the lawn, and particularly for the citrus tree, which shows signs of nitrogen deficiency in particular, and is probably also not getting water in summer sufficient to get rooting deeper. Just adding a mulch with chicken manure in it, or mushroom compost or similar as a 4 inch mulch, ought to help the citrus tremendously. I'd also suggest adding some time release fertilizer such as osmocote and work into the soil in March, for longer term/slow release of nutrients, and check with a soil auger how deep your irrigation is penetrating with the irrigation you are giving it. The lawn can also be top dressed with a light screened mulch after having it aerated with a core type aerator, and the top dressing raked in to help fill the holes, but it might be better to simply use a sod cutter to skim it all off, add a healthy 6 inches of organic compost to the lawn area, and resod. Lawns here typically benefit from several fertilizing periods, at least once in mid spring and again in summer and early fall, or refer to the web site referred to previously for recommendations. You might also consider using a mulching lawn mower that chops up the grass blades so that they return to the soil, and preserve the nitrogen that is otherwise thrown away with each clipping. As to Ink's complaint about "cliche" eyebrow plantings around the edge of the lawn, I don't think you are really looking at other solutions if you mean to keep the existing lawn size and layout, but I do second Ink's opinion that the narrowness of the planting areas against the fence is rather dull and static. Planting of vines to cover the fence, and widening the borders to allow at least some layering of shrubs and herbaceous plantings is entirely possible if borders were widened to minimum 4 to 8 feet wide if you can give up some lawn space. The proximity of those large redwoods and oaks across your fence is definitely tapping into the irrigation you are supplying. The vigor of the trees, and even some of the plants in your own backyard indicates to me that yours isn't so much a soil fertility problem, as it is poorly timed fertilizing and no ongoing attempts to increase organic content of your clay soils via mulching with compost, as well as not checking to see if your irrigation schedule is adequately wetting the soil to sufficient depth to encourage better growth and plant health under drought/heat stress of summer. Having dealt with many California gardens under or adjacent to redwoods and live oaks, the soil ph is unlikely to be the problem, as I am willing to bet your soil is only mildly acidic or even close to neutral. We just don't have moist enough conditions year round to create acidic soils from dropped leaves in a suburban garden setting. The problem is the root competition of water, and any plantings you add will greatly benefit from adding tons of organic component, mulching with compost on a yearly basis, selecting plants that tolerate root competition with redwood tree roots, shade and constant debris, and closely monitoring your irrigation cycles to see that the plants are getting what they need. Beyond a soils test and a landscape design, you need some help from a good horticulturist who can advise you what you are doing wrong/right in your particular circumstances. I'd also make darn sure the natives you have on your plans are compatible with redwood tree competition, as well as potential overspray from the lawn irrigation. Fertilizing more frequently for plantings below/adjacent redwoods is extremely helpful, and if you prefer the organic route, stick with a good organic mulch that has some manure in it, and reapply a couple of inches every year.

"I'm shocked. They WANT the rain water to go to the storm drains? " Yes. "If the rain lands on my roof... shouldn't I be able give some to my plants?" No. It doesn't belong to you. It belongs to somebody downstream from you. I've done some reading on the water rights laws and if you try to get your arms wrapped around things, some of the odd things are really remnants of things that were codified when they were trying to ensure there was enough water for the cattle and sheep. Way back when, if a rancher had a stream and built a dam, he could build up a big reservoir of water and make sure he always had enough water for his cattle. But the people who lived downstream would suddenly find that the stream had dried up and they couldn't get water for their sheep (or themselves). Don't you remember all those old westerns where the mean cattle baron was trying to starve out the hard working settlers and/or sheep farmers in the valley? And then somebody (who used to be a hired killer or something) ends up saving the day for the sheep farmers? Shane, Trinity, Angel and the Badman are examples. So there are all kinds of agreements in place as to who owns water in various places, how much they can dam, how much they can use in a year, how much they can sell to somebody else, and so forth. Technically, I think the way the laws are written, they don't say who owns the water, but who owns the rights to the water. In most cases, unless you own the rights to do so, you can't stop water from flowing to the people downstream from you, who own the right to use it (or part of it) but also probably don't own the rights to stop its flow (so the sheep farmer in the valley can keep his sheep alive). I think there is also language in some of the laws that basically gives precedence to agriculture over cities and towns (probably because it was so important at the time to keep the ranch animals alive). And there's often language giving precedence to the oldest rights (so ranches that have been in the same family for generations ahve more rights that people who have recently acquired rights. There are also some odd laws WRT gray water. In some parts of the country, there are laws against using gray water for plants because the thinking is that there could be hygiene issues. In the west, the laws are in place because you don't buy the water, you buy the right to use the water once. The key is that you buy the right to use it once. After you've used it, it belongs to somebody else. So you can put a bucket in the shower to catch the water while it's warming up (since you haven't used that water yet) but once you step in, you're not supposed to catch the water because you've used it to shower. I think there are a lot of problems with the way the water rights are doled out. One of the biggest is that when they decided how much water each state should be given, they did it in a period of historically high precipitation. Some people say that they made it worse by overestimating how much water was there. The end result is that there is a lot more water "owned" than there is actual water. I'm convinced that it's going to get much worse in the years ahead. I've been replacing my lawn grass with native grasses that use much less water than traditional grasses. I should be able to keep my lawn green without watering until late June or early July and only watering 1-2 times a month. In contrast, most of my neighbors water daily (to make a better comparison, I've been watering once a week except in the hottest part of the summer, when I water about once every 5 days).

Thanks for your help, suggestions and encouragement. I'm sorry I wasn't able to respond promptly. We put out a new product this week - this involves a great deal of extra time and work for everyone. Getting back to the subject - Spruce: I'm sure you think I'm a nut case or an idiot but some of these concepts are difficult to grasp and internalize until you observe them firsthand. I've read about forest succession and how it unfolds over hundreds of years but I've never observed it nor have I tried to create a forest. I'm trying to find ways to bypass some stages - as you say "trying to grow a forest that is like a mid or late stage in the forest succession, without going through all the stages that lead up to it." At times, I've been confused by conflicting advice - for example, whether to use loblollies as a nurse tree. In any group, people will disagree. It's my responsibility to find more information to resolve the question or clarify the issue. I asked our forester this question. He advised me to use loblollies as nurse trees until oak seedlings are 3-4 feet tall - once they reach that height, the pines may cast too much shade. If this happens, they need to be removed. In another thread, you also recommended using black locusts as nurse trees, chopping them back as needed, so I did order black locusts. Given the type of shade they cast, it may not be necessary to remove them - I'll wait and see. Alabama & Sherry: Thanks for the posts about hardwoods growing under and around pines. I was beginning to think I'd lost my mind. I've decided that trees grow differently around the country and under different conditions - and that there are no one-size-fits-all answers to questions. Sherry: Why do I think you just got your 2008 FF catalog? So did I but I'm afraid to open it - too much going on right now. The seedlings I ordered from the NC nursery arrived 3 days ago - 2 weeks early - and they sent an additional 200 Atlantic white cedars that I didn't order. I've called but haven't heard back from them so I'm trying to keep the cedars cool. You said you ordered two nyssa biflora/swamp blackgum from FF. How would you describe these trees? I ordered 20 nysssa biflora seedlings, in addition to 50 Nyssa sylvatica seedlings. I have a wet area and thought N. biflora would be happy there, along with bald cypresses, Atlantic white cedars, maybe some red maples. I'm not familiar with the the Jefferson Elm. I'm working on an order from Mail Order Natives (I am a nut case!). In addition to Carpinus caroliniana, I'm looking at A. saccharum var. floridana, Acer saccharum var. leucoderme (Chalk maple), and Pistachia chinensis (Chinese pistache). She has Magnolia asheii - that's been on my list for years, and Magnolia macrophylla (Big Leaf Magnolia) but I think they both need more shade and protection than I can offer right now. I really need some big fast growing Magnolia grands to screen my neighbor's sheds across the pond. QM: I haven't received the seedlings from Indian Mound yet. They should arrive around Feb 15. But NC sent seedlings two weeks early so you never know. I'll let you know when they arrive. Take care, Pam

This is really a great thread! I just wanted to chime in a bit. I just finished planting 140 trees on about 1 acre, and it went pretty well. I planted: 25 Common Lilac 15 Manchurian Crab 25 White Pine 32 White Spruce 10 Bur Oak 5 Paper Birch 5 Silver Maple 5 Black Cherry 5 Red Oak 5 Rugosa Rose 2 Red Maple 5 Red Pine 4 Hybrid Poplar In addition, this summer, I planted 4 larger trees... a bur oak, an Autumn Blaze Maple, a Siouxland Cottonwood, and a Red Splendor Crab It will be interesting to see how fast everything grows. The clone of Hybrid Poplar I planted can grow anywhere from 5-10 feet per year.. while the bur oak will grow at a glacial 6-18" per year over its entire life. In 1996, about 60 red pines, 10 white pines, and 10 black hills and blue spruce were planted on our land. In 2007, the tallest Red Pine is about 15 feet tall, the tallest White pine is about 12 feet tall, and the tallest spruce is 7 feet tall. Of course, these were all started from seedlings with no weed control for the first 3 years, and only mowing after that (when we moved in). We no longer mow the eastern portion of the property, where red pines are growing. There are a few clearings among the trees, and some shrubs are starting to become established. Among them are Rugosa Rose, low bush blueberry, chokecherry, and American Hazelnut. To date, not one hardwood tree has seeded. Under our deck, however, about 6 Boxelder seeds germinated, and one vigorous and desperate sapling is about 4 feet tall in its second year. I will transplant it to the edge of our property when the leaves drop... Otherwise, the land we own on a lake is already forested... and it's more of a question of management than anything. I desperately want to clear some of the underbrush (it's nearly impossible to walk through the woods here... so thick with underbrush). Between the Beaked Hazel, tree saplings, fallen logs, grass clumps, and various other shrubs, if yo'ure not tripping and trying to regain balance, you have several small branches trying to enter your head through your eye sockets. You basically have to close your eyes and bore your way through the woods with your hands in front of you, shielding your face.