and you are WHERE? 6a just doesn't cut it as location information. How much rainfall is important, as is length of growing season.

What a beautiful place to plant some roses! I just wanted to mention that walnut trees, especially black walnuts, produce juglone. Juglone makes it difficult for other plants to grow in the vicinity of the walnut tree, so you may want to look into that before planting anything you love under the canopy of the walnuts. Raspberries are among the plants that seem to be very tolerant of these conditions. In the worst case, you could have a wonderful raspberry patch back there...

North MO 6a, last average frost first week of April, first average frost last week of October. Rainfall average 40 inches or so. I don't know if that's rain or total precipitation - I'm about to write some national representatives and ask why the heck our government websites aren't set up in a more user-friendly way. August can get pretty dry, and is usually hot - 100+ degrees for at least a few days straight. Winter doesn't have much snow cover, the last few have had none.

K S, there's so much I can't plant because of those stupid trees! All the options available for trees and someone picked an herbicide producing one. Sorry, I'm still angry about lilacs, peonies, and most hydrangeas being nixed from garden beds lol. I don't know if raspberries would get tall enough, or produce well in that much shade. If those cedar trees had never been there, I'd have a lot more options, but removing them will be too expensive.

EDIT - after Googling, there are apparently some 'part shade' thornless raspberries for z6! I wouldn't try them on the northern side of my lot, but I could sneak some into my garden beds that way. And there's apparently a groundcover raspberry!

Hmm... I might have to see about putting a dwarf thornless plant or two in my sunnier beds. I think this spot will be too much shade to get enough berries to be worth the effort. I'll check reviews about suckering - I don't want the 'Charles de Mills' of the raspberry world either lol.

I just wanted to let you know I grew roses successfully in a pine forest. The filtered light caused a dappled effect that the roses didn't seem to mind, especially during our hot, hot, hot summers. We've since had all those trees removed for safety reasons, and I don't really see much difference in the roses, if any.

I don't know anything about the effects of walnut trees or cedars, but just wondering if digging huge holes and refilling them with untainted soil would work? Or raised beds?

My Ispahan grows under the shade of a tree and blooms profusely in early summer. My Therese Bugnet gets 3 hours or less of sun. It has reached up to 12' when I don't keep it pruned back. She also blooms very well in her first flush, then periodically. Marchesa Boccella does well in partial shade. My Stanwell Perpetual was completely shaded by the canopy of an overgrown flowering almond, and did just fine. Darlow's Enigma is at the base of a tree and that thing is always in bloom. Gruss an Aachen does fine in partial shade. I saw a Ghislaine de Feligonde in deep shade blooming like crazy. Many of the Canadian roses don't mind shade at all. My Wm. Baffin is in almost total shade and puts on a terrific spring display. A good re-blooming hybrid musk, Ballerina, won't mind a little shade. Many of the Austin roses will even benefit from some shade. There's always Paul's Himalayan Musk and Lady Banks Rose.

If you can somehow overcome the cedar and walnut problems, I think you can grow roses just fine. The lawn is absolutely gorgeous even without roses, so you win either way.

I've been thinking big holes, with a 'ring' of multiple cardboard layers to keep the tree roots from invading until the roses have gotten established enough. I've read (I think it was here on Gardenweb) that trees will grow up into and fill a raised bed unless you have some kind of root barrier - I'm guessing landscape fabric. I'd worry about drainage for the roses and drought for the trees then, lol!

The only effect the cedars would have is it tends to be dry underneath them - though I'm not sure if it's because they really take up that much water or because they tend to be very, very thick - mine are the thinnest I've seen in my area! I wonder if a previous owner didn't have them thinned in addition to limbed up. Walnuts though, the juglone K S brings up is a serious issue. Roses are on every list of plants NOT affected I could find - unlike tomatoes, potatoes, peppers, apricots, apples, and a host of more ornamental plants. I've got maybe one spot in my yard that a single lilac could safely grow.

'Ispahan' looks beautiful - I'd dismissed damasks due to concerns about 'damask crud' in my climate. It doesn't seem like I see many comments from people in my zone and area to compare to. I could try a smaller one in a big enough pot as a test. Your 'Therese' sounds like she could screen the shed by herself! How does she look in the fall? 'Brother Cadfael' has red canes as well. Noseometer posed some fall/winter pics of some Austins that just WOW! Darlow's Enigma could handle that north corner, hmm... I think we get just cold enough that Lady Banks wouldn't make it - this winter in particular has been brutal with deep freezes (single digits for the actual temp, not the 'real feel'!) followed by 40 degrees.

I'll keep the Canadians in mind, but remembering what Nippstress in a zone colder has said, I'm not sure I want to set 'Quadra' loose in my yard ha!

Your summers are much hotter than ours. So I'd recommend trying one or two summer-blooming once-bloomers to see how they do. Many of mine bloom from early June to the first really hot weather of the summer, which is usually around 90 4th of July weekend. If they behave that way for you, you could end up with only a few days of flowers before the heat gets them. Spinossisimas are probably a better bet, since they bloom in May here, and may stand a better chance of beating the heat.

Suckering wouldn't concern me much if all the neighbors were planning on doing there is keeping it lawn. Lawnmowers are *most excellent* controllers of many things, including overambitious roses.

Ac91, I'd much prefer your trees to all these pines. I guess the grass is always greener! You asked about Therese in the fall. She's still attractive in the fall, with reddish canes. She's not real pretty in the winter, but then, not much out there is this time of year. If used as a screen, I'd plant more than one because of the upright growth habit.

I have been happy with hybrid musks with 2 or 3 flushes. These are Prosperity and Ballerina. Penelope didn't make it and Cornelia is still young. All have been in partial shade; early morning shade then afternoon shade, on a south and west facing hill. Although our Summers are not as hot as yours being generally in the nineties (rarely over 100 but once 108), the steep hill probably makes our sites comparable in regard to dryness. I second Darlow's Enigma which thrives and blooms almost continuously in shade next to a mature maple. I cannot even say that the shade is dappled. It appears continuous.

Cath

Mad-gallica, I shouldn't have gone on HMF and looked up spinossisimas. That fall color - swoon! Black hips, now that's lovely and unusual! But eek, those thorns!

I see an order from Corn Hill Nursery in Canada in my future. Can't seem to find much selection in the States.

You did mean the pimpinellifolia/scots rose spinossisima, not the Asian one (because apparently there are two spin species!), right? And of course some that I like best are apparently only available in Europe *grumble*. When you say '90s by July 4th', do you mean low, mid, or high 90s? It's not often, but we do get a few low 90s in June here, and every so often we get some mid-90s. What are your best not-spins in that weather?

If I could ever get my hands on some of Paul Barden's gallicas, would they be alright here or would I just be shorting myself?

Flowers, 'Stanwell Perpetual' is looking like a contender now - damask/spin hybrid, might be a good way to get some initial idea about both classes in this spot. And hardy enough it could live in a big pot outside all year!

Cathz6, that's what are summers are usually like but the last 2-3 years we've been seeing more 100+ in August. I wouldn't say more than ten days total, but still 3-4 in a row. I keep looking at 'Prosperity' and 'Pink Prosperity', but the flowers just seem so small. Of course that may be what I get no matter what in this spot.

And I just had to share this pic with you guys - 'William's Double Yellow' and 'Double Blush' spins.

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.272632

I think at least one spin is going to find it's way back here! I don't know if I want to deal with more than one thorn monster though lol.

Yep, ac91, Stanwell P is definitely super thorny, but I love having a Scotch briar rose in my garden. It literally covers itself with the softest pink blossoms. It produces successive rounds of blooms whether it's deadheaded or not. I'd put it where it's going to stay because of those prickles. It's in the same class as cacti in my opinion. Northland Rosarium in east WA carries it.

Ramblers tend to be very shade-and tree-tolerant...you could go for some early-bloomers, that would put out their buds before the walnuts leafed out. But I don't know about the juglone factor.

I'll put in a plug for Joan J raspberries, they are thornless, do well in part shade & produce fruit until the first or second week of November. In mid-December I cut them down to the ground, no faffing around with training them & selective pruning. I feed them compost & some years I put down chicken manure. I've been growing them 7 years & my family enjoys visiting when they're producing.

Karen, I've got an H. arborescens too! had a tree spout (looked like a walnut) growing through it when I bought the place, so I'd say this species isn't affected. I'd thought about a couple of them in this particular spot, but I don't think they'd get enough water to really be happy.

Lilacs and peonies are an option then! Well, in a couple places - I've got enough shade there's only 2-3 places for lilacs, and about the same for peonies. but if I can have at least one of each I'll take it! I'd love to know what else was thriving in your yard - right now I'm going off internet lists that are sometimes conflicting (which means that plant stays out).

That's good to know about polyanthas - every list I've seen listed Rosa sp. as tolerant/unaffected, but with so many species in there it wouldn't surprise me if one isn't. I've been eyeing 'Excellenz von Schubert' (the HM/Poly), but I'll start off with just one of that class and observe.

Bart, ramblers would be an option except I'm worried they'd do a little TOO well. I've yet to see RRD here, but the thought of trying to remove a massive specimen is a little daunting. And if I can make it work I'd like more than one rose back there to extend bloom time, which excludes some of the behemoths ('Veilchenblau' would probably look amazing for two weeks or so back there though). Although I'll admit if I could find 'Malvern Hills' somewhere other than DA USA I'd put it back there.

Smithdale, I started a response and got busy so I didn't see you. It looks llike 'Joan J' gets tall. Do you mow the spring canes? Does it sucker much? If I got 2-3 plants, how big would that patch get in three years? I'm leaning towards a dwarf, compact variety for myself but my mom is trying to get a raspberry row started and these might be perfect for her!

Let's see what I can remember:

Tons of bearded iris, unknown cultivars, although one that I think was likely Beverly Sills, in sun and dappled shade from the walnuts, so resistance seems good.

Hostas- white and green variegated hostas seem to be the MN most grown plant. they are everywhere, super hardy (and I'm so sick of them... gah! Give me a good mega blue over green and white any day). Yes hostas do not care about Juglone, and grew within a few feet of the trunk of one of my walnuts.

Also in that shade garden, within 10-15' of the trunk of one of the walnuts: Jack in the pulpit (arisamea), lily of the valley (convallaria), Old Fashioned bleeding heart (Dicentra spectabilis), Wild Canadian Ginger (asarum), Hellebore, Goat's Beard (Aruncus). all quite mature and well established. Sadly my attempts at growing Astilbe seemed doomed, so avoid them. You could also try members of the nightshade family. I had an infestation of deadly nightshade (solanum) which I was constantly ripping out. It had no problems with the walnuts, sadly.

I also grew raspberries, right at the fringe of the canopy, the patch was quite successful.

There was also an old, old coral berry bush (symphoricarpos), which had been planted under the maple. It probably had some resistance to juglone.

In the sunny spots, away from the walnut canopy thrived lilies- tons of old farm yard type tiger lilies, as well as orientals and asiatics. Also yucca, coneflower, seedum all had been successful over some time. Oh- also peonies are more shade tolerant then a lot of people give them credit for, especially the old antiques. Almost all of mine at that property were planted in dappled light.

Thank you Karen! I planted some big blue and variegated chartreuse/gold/green hostas that I'm anxious to see this spring! I think I'll go ahead and nix astilbe. I've got a couple places farther from the trees, still shady, they might work, but I'll test with cheaper plants/varieties.

I was surprised that you thought the hybrid musk flowers are small. Ballerina's are certainly, yes but Prosperity and Penelope have flowers that are slightly larger than Stanwell Perpetual's. I did love Stanwell but grew it in more sun than you indicate you have. Once mature, it bloomed continuously.

Cath

I'm thinking it was some of the pics on HMF. But I could be blurring a few different roses together. And the pics may have been of new plants, which usually do have smaller blooms.

ac91z6........My JoanJ's get to be about 6' tall & they do sucker but are easy to pull up, I give them to friends & family as starts. No, I don't mow because I have no grass & I can cut them down in about 5 minutes, lovely food for my compost. My summers are cool, perhaps they get taller in warm summers. I have 2 patches(started with 3 plants each) that have barriers on 3 sides(shed, garage & sidewalks) but have never seen them pop up beyond them. I wouldn't be without them.

I'm new to gardening so this might be a silly suggestion (and I don't know if it would work with your "poisoning" situation) - plus I don't know if these plants would be available in the U.S. - BUT - FWIW - I thought I'd mention plectranthus 'Mona Lavender' as it doesn't seem to have been mentioned yet. I've got several growing in full shade (from buildings, so no sun at all) - and they're wonderful. They get covered in beautiful lavender flowers and they grow VERY fast, into a fairly big rounded bush (1m x 1m - although I've seen pictures of them growing 2 - 3 times that) - in fact, I've had to prune mine back a couple of times already.

Here's a picture of some at my local garden centre. These are small - they grow into a big bush really fast:

I got them because I want constant flowers/colour in my garden - LOL - and I wanted something that would bloom in full shade(and I loved the look of their blooms) - and I've been pleasantly surprised by how easy they are to take care of.

And one good thing is - unlike a lot of full shade plants - they don't seem to mind if they do get hit by sunshine. I had to move a couple of my bushes since they grew so fast, they outgrew the space in the shade and the only spots I had left were in partial sun (with full direct sun for part of the day - and we have VERY hot, intense sunlight) - and they seemed to cope fine too. No burning. They also seem to take hard pruning very well, as I need to keep them small for my tiny suburban garden.

I am in Western Australia, with very dry, sandy soil which has low nutrients and doesn't hold water.

~ HY

ps. oh, and I thought I'd mention that I also have (DA) Charles Rennie Mackintosh growing in shade for most of the day and he seems to be growing & blooming really well. He's in an area sandwiched between the garage & the house, so shaded on both sides by buildings, with just a tiny gap of sky above. The sun does come in through the gap and moves across the area, so each plant gets about 2hrs max of sunlight - but the rest of the time, it's shade. Bright shade, though. But I know CRM remains pretty small so it's probably not what you want! :-)

HY, I think they might be available in the US - the Missouri Botanical Gardens Plant Finder has "Mona Lavender" in its database. It would only be an annual for me if I put in in the ground, so I doubt it would ever get as big as yours. Looks like it would make a nice 'thriller' for a container though, which would get around my juglone problem and give me another flowering option besides impatiens! I don't know about CRM's disease resistance in my area, and it looks like David Austin USA is the only place it's still available. I'm still tempted though, as CRM is so lovely in pics, and a short rose can always be planted towards the front of a bed.

Here's the Plant Finder, if anyone wants to check it out:

http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/PlantFinder/PlantFinderSearch.aspx

And thanks to a sale at Heirloom and Plantloverkat pointing out 'Robbie Burns', my first pimpinellifolia/spinosissima is purchased!

How about azaleas and rhodies? They’re my favorite for shady spots. No need to dig, just mound up azalea/rhodie mix soil and the plants will be happy mounded up like that. There are several fragrant varieties and so many different types... it is easy to become obsessed just like many of us are with roses. They won’t work under black walnuts (not much will) but they will be very happy under cedars.

I admittedly have been trying to convince many rose friends to try azaleas/rhodies in the right conditions because I selfishly want to have fellow rose/rhodie friends on here. :-)

You might find these generic plant recommendations to be helpful?

http://www.mortonarb.org/trees-plants/tree-and-plant-advice/horticulture-care/plants-tolerant-black-walnut-toxicity

There are other, similar lists online... my apologies if anyone has already made a similar suggestion.

Good luck!

Virginia

PS I seem to remember that this nursery had more than a few spins in their inventory, which is not currently listed anywhere that I can find. You might want to e-mail them to find out what roses they have that might work in your situation:

http://www.oldmarketfarm.com/Contact%20Us.html

Cori, unfortunately I have multiple walnut trees, so there's only one spot in the front (on the north side) that anything really juglone sensitive might stand a chance. It's full sun, so azaleas and rhodies are pretty well out for me. I do remember reading there are a few cultivars of I think rhodies that were juglone tolerant, but it was a very specific 'line' - I believe they had been crossed with the American species and some had picked up the tolerance that way. Maybe it was azaleas? I'd have to go through my bookmarks.

VMR, that's one of the sources I used! It's a pretty good list, lots of options on it. There just isn't much that will make a privacy screen in this much shade, even if I wasn't dealing with walnuts, so that really limits me. And I just love roses, ha!

Oooh, a new nursery to browse! Thank you!

You asked about Barden gallicas: I grow Umbra in a location that gets only a few hours of morning sun and it has done well - at least so far, it is three years old. I am in western KY.