If it is ordered as an insert, 1/4" on 4 sides is pretty industry standard. There usually isn't much reason to go tighter as you hide the cut back measurements behind the stops in that case.

If you are now replacing the vinyl windows (which replaced original wood DHs) with the Integrity, your measurements should be the same. Integrity now allows you to either order by opening (Marvin will deduct a total of 3/8" from the width and 1/4" from the inside leg height ) or actual net frame size (again, inside leg for height). They have measuring instructions that Marvin Integrity provides and I would ask for those.

If you aren't doing the installation, I recommend that the installer provide final ordering dimensions so that he/she takes some responsibility and will insure that it will work.

My advice - don't use Marvin. We had a horrible experience with them and their authorized dealer, J.F. Johnson Lumber located in Maryland.

I am under the assumption that you are using the Integrity Traditional Insert Double Hung? If so then you are keeping your existing window frames and simply inserting the new window into the hole correct?

If so, then you can simply bring the opening sizes into the Integrity dealer you are working with. The window quoting software will automatically shrink the window down accordingly. Here is what I see when I enter your dimensions:

Ultimately if you are measuring they will be your responsibility to make sure they fit. I recommend taking the quote back to your home and double checking every window before placing the order. Or, if your dealer offers it, have them come and double check the dimensions.

Adrian-I read another of your posts and am sorry you had such a poor experience with the Marvin dealer in your area. You have justified your opinion of the dealer, however I'm not sure why Marvin is receiving the blame as well. Is it due to their "Authorized Dealer" label they've given the retailer? If so, make sure Marvin is aware of your troubles, they are a company dedicated to customer service and quality of product, I doubt they want to be represented poorly. I'm guessing you have already done this, and it is entirely possible the dealer been warned. Have you have issues with the actual product not related to the mis-measure? I have had tremendous success with their product lines, having far fewer issues than any other company I sell. I am curious to hear of any issues. Best of luck in the future.

Thanks Tri County Lumber. Marvin is well aware of the problems I had with J.F. Johnson Lumber. I totally disagree that they are concerned about customer service. Whether J.F.Johnson Lumber was "warned", no clue. What I do know is that they are still an authorized dealer and I am still a very unhappy customer with windows that are measured wrong. Every single window! Quality businesses fix these problems. J.F. Johnson Lumber tried to blame everyone and every thing rather than taking responsibility. The worst company I have ever done business with.

At least consumers who are not happy can give bad reviews, share their experiences on sites like this and tell their story to a wide audience. I do know that both Marvin and J.F. Johnson Lumber have lost significantly more business from my experience than it would have cost them to fix the problem. Penny wise, pound foolish.

Quite happy with our Marvin Integrity double hung insert here though it is early days yet.

Nice window - strong, quality feel - though it can’t hold a candle to the Ultimate in looks, refinement or operation.

Adrian, maybe you should just post a link to Your thread instead of semi-hijacking every Integrity thread. I have Integrity/wood and am very pleased with the windows. If I recall correctly, your issue was with measurements. Not window quality.

Ikbum- thanks for your opinion and please respect mine. Quality of the windows, quality of the experience, quality of the company, quality of the authorized dealer are all information points for the consumer to make an educated decision.

When one hijacks every thread available their message starts to look like the person is a complainer.

Good. I am complaining about a horrible experience! Information is power for the consumer.

Thank you Jeff. I respect your response. My goal is to reach as large an audience as possible.

What is this thread about again?

Adrian, “respect”????? You are showing anything but. Once again, your Opinionated whine has taken over a thread. Sorry to the OP for my worthless contribution, just had enough of a fool.

How adult. As kids on the playground would say, "sticks and stones can break my bones but names will never hurt me". Just to let you know, again, I have been given LOTS OF POSITIVE FEEDBACK FROM PEOPLE who have heard my story.

@lkbum_gw has helped countless folks across the country with his well documented and thoughtful window analysis process during his build.

I am sure he helped a bunch of other folks out on other parts of the build, but he attention to detail, willingness to answer consumer questions, and documentation for folks in a similar conundrum, was a wealth of information for people.

He did this with no expectations or reservations. He is a great addition to folks that are seeking research on windows.

Sometimes those names o hurts a little bit.

Windows on Washington I am sure you would not call customers or potential customers, fools. If you did, I your reviews would reflect it. And I also assume that if you had made a mistake in measurements, you would make it right, not try to blame the trim, a contractor or anything else on making the mistake. Right?

"Windows on Washington I am sure you would not call customers or potential customers, fools."

I don't see where he refered to anyone as a fool Adrian.

But you keep coming on here and every thread you can find spewing your tale. I get your frustrated, but we have heard your side of the story only. I am not stating that the lumberyard or Marvin was correct or not correct but, we have only heard YOUR side of the story. Repeatedly. Do you remember the story of the little boy that cried wolf...................

I would love Marvin and J.F.Johnson Lumber to "spew" their side of the story.

@lkbum_gw is an adult and can stand in his own truth.

The idea of feedback was raised and I was only commented on the years that I have observed @lkbum_gw go out of his way to help people with zero expectation of any quid pro quo.

Seeing as this discussion isn't about me or my business practices, I would think that staying on subject would be beneficial to the people that you profess to want to help (i.e. potential Marvin consumers).

The thread in which you detailed out your experience seems to have been deleted or otherwise missing. I guess that is why you are commenting on a slew of unrelated threads. What exactly would be the point of negative commentary without any backstory to go with it for the folks that zero familiarity with your story?

Seeing as this is a open discussion platform, I would suggest you find that old thread or repost your story. Don't quote me on the specifics, but I seem to remember something about you or your contractor authorizing/signing off on a set of measurements and then taking issue with what you viewed (and very may well have been) as incorrect measurements. I think several solutions were suggested in your case that would allow you to keep the windows and make them work with only minimal offset in observed glass size.

What ever happened by the way? Did you install the windows?

What happened is we bought 19 replacement Marvin windows from J.F. Johnson Lumber for $19,500. J.F. Johnson Lumber is an authorized Marvin dealer. J.F. Johnson Lumber told us they were Marvin "experts" and had been trained by Marvin in measuring their replacement windows. Because of this, we decided to have J.F. Johnson Lumber measure the windows and not my contractor.

They measured one window as a test to make sure the measurement was right. It was 3/8" too large. They came back and changed the measurement by 1 inch. Before I signed off to proceed I asked my contractor if the new measurement looked ok. He said it was smaller, so was ok with it. HE DID NOT MEASURE THE WINDOW SINCE WE WANTED THE MARVIN "EXPERT" TO DO THAT. All of the windows were 5/8" too small. J.F. Johnson Lumber did not know that Marvin did a factory adjustment, which is stated on the Marvin official measuring guide. Then J.F. Johnson Lumber said that my contractor told him to make the 1 inch adjustment. First of all, I know my contractor did not tell him to take an inch off, and I know my contractor did not measure the window, and secondly, if he had, wouldn't you note that this measurement would result in the window being 5/8" too small or that someone TOLD you to change your measurement by 1 inch????

I was furious that they tried to blame my contractor. This could have seriously damaged his reputation. Marvin offered to RESELL me the windows at a reduced cost. As I have said, a very bad experience all the way around.

We did install the windows. I lose light because I have lost glass. My contractor did an excellent job installing them, even though there was 5/8" of air from the bad measurement.

Thank you for offering installation advice, but I don't need that. I wouldn't wish this experience on anyone.

IMO, This a dealer related problem and Marvin went out of there way to compensate

Seems that way to me as well Todd. If someone measured a window incorrectly previously, I am not sure I trust their measurement a 2nd time without verification.

This highlights a very specific problem that can rear its head when it comes to too many chefs ruining the soup. It sounds like your contractor is competent. I don't know why he would have not measured the windows that he would have been responsible for installing?

We have customers that sometimes want to supply their own product and we very cordially refuse for the same reasons we would refuse to use anyone else's measurements but our own.

I seem to recall some discussions that you or your contractor actually signed off on the measurements? I don't know of any lumber yards that are releasing an order without a signature on the renderings and cut sheet.

Did you or your contractor sign off on the measurements? At the end of the day, the burden of responsibility is on the person that signs the dotted line...i.e caveat emptor.

Was the 5/8" on the height or width? So we are basically talking about a 1/4" on either end? Did they offer any discount on the materials for the measurements dispute?

How did your lawsuit against the lumber yard go? I think you mentioned before that you were going to sue them for the materials?

In hindsight, i wish my contractor had measured the windows. J.F. Johnson Lumber clearly did not know how to measure them. We could not have proceeded with the order until I signed it. Guess what you are saying that I, as the homeowner, should have taken out a tape measure and measured the windows myself rather than trusting the "expert" who was trained by Marvin??? So, that is how you run your business?

As for Marvin, I am surprised they want dealers who treat customers like J.F. Johnson Lumber did.

Actually, that is the exact opposite of what I was saying. How I run my business? Clearly you missed the text above where I stated that I would never trust anyone's measurements but our own (i.e. the installers).

I don't know anyone at the lumber yard or who does their measurements, but once a customer signs off on something, they own it. If you contracted them for measurement services (never really seen that and especially when another contractor is putting them in), I would suspected that they would have had some sort of documentation indicating that the measurements are going to be correct. That would have been your recourse provision in this case.

Was there any sort of document indicating the surety of their measurements or a fee that you paid for them to measure the windows?

J.F. Johnson Lumber came out and measured the windows and submitted the order. Their name, my signature. They never asked to have their measurements double checked by my contractor and my contractor never measured the windows. If they had asked that, we would have done it and paid my contractor for that service. Marvin told me that typically a contractors name is on the order if they measured the windows. My contractors name was not on the order.

No offense Adrian Fish but maybe you need to take some responsibility here. Why in the world would you hire a contractor who cant take his own measurements? Most people would logically view that as a red flag.. a window contractor who wants someone else to take his measurements!!! You dont need a degree from Harvard to see that as being suspect. Was your window contractor very cheap? Did the lure of cheap labor obscure your common sense?

your whole story is very odd and certainly not within the norm. Most lumber yards avoid liability by not doing measurements if they arent performing the installation. Unless you asked someone at the lumber yard on the side to do it.

at my company, we take all of our own measurements.

No offense taken. The ONLY REASON WE HAD J.F. JOHNSON .LUMBER MEASURE THE WINDOWS IS BECAUSE THEY TOLD US THEY WERE EXPERTS AND BEEN TRAINED BY MARVIN. How were we to know that they didn't know what thet were doing??? Believe me, we would have happily paid my contractor to measure the windows but we TOLD HIM NOT TO BECAUSE J.F. JOHNSON LUMBER SAID THEY WERE EXPERTS AND TRAINED BY MARVIN!!!!

You stand by your measurements but J.F. Johnson Lumber did not. Horrible company. My contractor is fantastic and would never not measure in the future. They too took J.F. Johnson Lumber at their word that they were experts. No one cheap. Only an incompetent company saying they were experts when they were clearly not.

Then J.F. Johnson Lumber blaming my contractor for the bad measurements when I knew he didn't measure them? As a contractor that should make your skin crawl.

and why the bashing of Marvin windows….. clearly a measurement issue and the beef is with a lumber company and contractor. We built in 2012. Our builder had never installed Marvin windows before. He called the Window supplier (AVI in Atlanta), they met on site to ensure proper sizes were ordered and went over installation. Since I designed the house and was paying the bills (and the window order was substantial), I went over the window order in detail and I (not the builder or AVI) signed off on the order. This was required before AVI would start on our order. At the request of our builder, AVI was also on site during the delivery of the windows in case there was any shipping damage that needed to be address. Sounds like our builder knows what he was doing. Marvin had nothing to do with window selection, sizing etc. Maybe Adrian should read what they signed regarding the windows and their installation.

Read what? Marvin shouldn't have dealers who claim to be something they aren't. Sounds like you had a good authorized dealer. I did not.

Read your written agreement with your installer, or the order for the windows. you should have at least one of those.

The ONLY written agreement I have is the order from J.F. Johnson Lumber, to Marvin, with their wrong measurements.

You said your contractor was there and he said it looked smaller and was ok with it. 5/8 of glass loss is not much and most people wood not notice even if you pointed it out. If the sizing caused trim issues that's another story. How much did Marvin compensate you?

He said he was ok with the measurement only because the number was smaller. He didn't measure the window Marvin didn't give me anything. It did cause trim issues and made the installation more costly.

So I assume, you signed the order and paid for the windows if the installer was not involved. I don't think a supplier will place an order like that without a signed order. As a rule of thumb, there is a lot more to ordering windows than size. Grids, colors, hardware, screens etc. How did you convey this information to your supplier? Sounds like, you were (or became) the general contractor. You ordered the windows and had someone install them. So the ultimate responsibility falls on you. And you still have not pointed out any quality issues with the windows themselves, which would be pertinent. From your post - "My advice - don't use Marvin. We had a horrible experience with them and their authorized dealer," It sounds like your advice should be something like this - Use a general contractor or installer to measure, order and install your windows to avoid the mistakes I made.

How much compensation?

still a little baffled your carpenter didn't ask more questions or whip out a tape if he was right there. There are perhaps 3 to blame but none are Marvin.

Adrian, clearly you are very frustrated and this has been a terrible experience for you. None of us here can verify what was or was not said by your supplier or installers, but we are all commenting on the normal industry protocol, and who responsibility lies with.

-Installers measure windows, not manufacturers or suppliers that are not installing. There is no such thing as an expert at measuring a specific product. The measuring process has everything to do with the hole that the window is going into, and the circumstances surrounding that.

-Most installers worth their salt would not agree to install windows measured by others. Period.

-Marvin has pretty much ZERO to do with any of this.

-When you signed the order and hired your own installer, as alluded to above, you became the GC. You unwittingly bought any problems at that point. While this supplier may or may not have made informal promises, this is really a cautionary tale of what not to do as a consumer more than anything.

-On the sizing, as also alluded to above, if we are talking 5/8" on total width and height, that is only slightly more than 1/4" per side. That is negligible in most applications, within industry standards, and will make just about zero difference in the look and performance of the window as well.

Again, clearly an unfortunate and frustrating situation, but unsuccessfully attempting to disparage other parties is not the way to go about this. Not only are you doing so to the parties directly involved, but impugning the practices of those that are simply attempting to help you out, whether it is what you want to hear or not, is very bad form.

Thanks for liking my comment ekeenan2. Hope it helps with your project.

Seems like I am subscribed to this thread so I get notice updates.

For the record...since when does anybody comment and thank someone for liking a post?

This is SO clearly just an effort to bump up a post that is designed to malign a manufacturer and a lumber yard that you might as well of just been honest and say that.

nobody does that Winston. The only type of person that would do that would also blame others for their poor choices. On the positive side, adrain can bump the thread all he/she wants. I think readers get the picture here.