It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 47

6 years ago

last modified: 6 years ago

Hello everyone,

Welcome to this ongoing message thread. Once again, the previous part of this continuing series, It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 46 has exceeded 100 messages, with a lot of picture content and a lot of good text content, and that could make the thread slow to load for some users (including me), so we are continuing the series here for yet another fresh start.

The same guidelines apply here. Anything remotely related to zinnias is fine. (Or plant breeding in general, or feral cats or precocious cats or locusts or pet snails or chupacabras or book comments or whatever.)

My indoor zinnia project continues. This picture was taken a few minutes ago, and it shows the current state of my South Zinnia Garden.

We have several inches of snow on the ground. That light pole actually leans a bit -- I held the camera reasonably level. Most of those trees at the south edge of the garden are "weed trees" and I will do some extensive pruning on them this Spring. The compost pile on the right is less than half full, but it will fill with grass clippings this Spring. That red-orange object is a recycle box. I use it to transport material to the compost pile. I don't compost zinnia material, because I don't want to introduce zinnia diseases into the pile. Zinnia refuse goes in contractor bags, along with other trash, to our commercial landfill.

I really enjoy growing and fussing with zinnias indoors while it is Winter outside. I have heard that the bright fluorescent lights can actually contribute to a good psychological mood in the Winter, and they seem to for me. I think the zinnias also help with that.

I look forward to your new or continued participation with comments and
photos (and possibly even videos) here in this message thread.

Featured Answer

zen_man
Original Author

6 years ago

Hello Ninecrow,

" Any more Interesting Non Pink Tubey's ZM? "

Yes, this one is a light pastel orange with a hint of apricot, with an interesting petal structure, and a nice sized bloom.

This one has a similar color, but a different flower form.

I make hybrid crosses between different specimens, including those with different flower forms and those with different colors. There is always anticipation when a new zinnia is first starting to bloom.

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Comments (115)

S I
6 years ago
that newish "cup" shape

Could this be the road to Lotus???
zen_man
Original Author
6 years ago
Hello all,

" Could this be the road to Lotus??? "

I am uncertain where all this will lead, but could be.

I said I would post a picture of Woolly seeds the next time I got some, and that was today.
They are green seeds, for the most part "fat green ones", and a little smaller than average for "regular" zinnias. That graph paper is ruled in tenths of an inch. As usual, we here in The States are just "inching" toward the metric system.

Those seeds are probably 100% crossed with something, rather than selfed. I let the original bloom on the Woolly plant develop normally, with the idea that it would self its seeds with its internal anther bundles. I could see that wasn't happening by doing a little "peek-a-boo", so I exposed the stigmas on the side blooms and pollinated them with whatever. These seeds were all hand pollinated. So "expect the unexpected". More later. Green seeds to plant.

ZM
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Pls8xx, "One thing that has been on my mind the last few weeks is how important it is to me that a zinnia have a short compact plant form. I grow in a sand/clay mix rather than topsoil. It will hold plants upright fine when dry, but when wet the soil looses its strength and the tall plants become vulnerable to wind knocking them over." You have made a good case that you do need zinnias with a more compact plant habit. Last year, we had a very violent storm with high winds of 50mph and it blew down literally dozens of my zinnias. I had concrete re-bar tomato cages around a few of my more critical "breeders" and they were protected. But many of my big zinnia plants snapped off at the ground and many more lost their basal branches and some lateral branches. Interestingly, some of my big bushy scabiosa flowered zinnias and most of those F1s with a "scabi" parent came through just fine, with amazing resistance to the high winds. As is usual in a high wind storm here, for a period of hours we lost our electrical power, our telephone land line, and our cable connection. I studied the wreckage in my zinnia patch to see "what went wrong" structurally with my zinnias. As is usual for me, there were some surprises. I plan to apply what I learned from my "crash investigation" to make better decisions about plant structure this year. For one thing, I had planted a lot of Burpeeanas, from both Burpee and from Stokes. I had a lot of "out of the seed packet" Burpeeanas and some F1 hybrids from crosses that I made between Burpeeanas. (Incidentally, your picture of the "original" red Burpeeanas shows just how nice that Burpeeana bushy look can be.) To my amazement, some of the most disastrous structural failures were in my Burpeeanas. They have what I refer to as a "candelabra" stem structure, with basal branches coming out from the main stem at a 90 degree angle. Even though the stems look thick and strong, there is a kind of "joint" at the attachment point. Some of the basal branches that were in contact with the soil had actually sprouted roots and were apparently in the process of becoming independent plants. It's almost as if the stem joint was "willing" to detach from the main stem. But even higher up, those branches that cantilevered out from the main stem at a 90-degree angle seemed inherently weak. In almost all cases, the branches broke at their attachment points to the main stem. The plants that seemed resistant to branches breaking off had their branches leaving the main stem at a much more acute angle, like 45 or even 30Â°. So their branches were headed upward at the attachment point. For whatever reason, those branches seemed much better attached, even if the plant habit was more generally upward than outward. Despite the fragility of the Burpeeana plants in high winds, I plan to continue growing them and selecting the best flowers and plants. I will just be looking for stronger attachment points for their branches. If you want to emphasize compactness in your zinnia breeding, you can start with some strains that are already compact and cross some other zinnias with them. I personally have quit crossing the lower growing zinnias because I don't like kneeling and bending over to do my cross pollinating. I've always had a tendency toward lower back pain from my gardening, and a lot of bending over just aggravates it. However, short zinnias are interesting looking and fascinating in crosses, so I am thinking about constructing some really high raised beds that might bring those short zinnias up to a more comfortable working distance. There are some short zinnias that you can cross with tall zinnias that will produce some intermediate compact F1 hybrids, and the F2s from them should sort out into a wide range of plants that you could pick from for further breeding. Three of the shortest are the Thumbelina zinnia, the Zinnita zinnia, and Zinnia Short Stuff. Here is another view of Short Stuff and here is another seed source: Short Stuff at New England seed. Some taller but still very compact zinnias are Zinnia Swizzle cherry and ivory, Zinnia Swizzle scarlet and yellow, Zinnia Dreamland hybrids, Zinnia Magellan mix, and I just found that Zinnia Peter Pan mix is apparently still available. By crossing some of those compact zinnias with other zinnias you should have the basis for creating several new strains of compact zinnias, with various degrees of compactness. MM
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Hi Ninecrow, Yeah, yeah, I know. I created Part 49, but Houzz lost it somehow. I have a Trouble Report in with them, but so far the only response is an automatic "we got your message" response. This was caused by a bug in the Houzz software, and I am not impressed that after 24 hours from reporting the problem, I still have not communicated with a Houzz human being. It will eventually get resolved, and there will be a Part 49. Oddly, the Link that doesn't work for you does work for me. But that is the only way I can access the new Part 49. I may just be accessing it in a local browser buffer. It doesn't show up in the Annuals message list or the Hybridizing message list (which I tagged for Part 49 because multiple forums for a message string is a feature of the new software). Unfortunately, using that feature led to the disappearance of the new Part 49. If I had not chosen to use the new feature, Part 49 would already be there for us. We shall see what we shall see. ZM
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Hello everyone, Well, we did get that expected rain. It came with some winds, but I don't see any obvious wind damage. It is now comfortably cool outside, but very wet. I will shuck zinnia seeds indoors until things dry off a bit. This is one of those current narrow petaled specimens.The tubes are light colored, but unfortunately not white. This is a closer look at some of the petal ends.There is actually quite a bit of variation in the end-of-petal "flare". That suggests that the flares may be partially developmental rather than genetic. The embryo inside the green seed at the base of each petal would be genetically different if it had been fertilized by a pollen grain, either from this plant or from a different one, because it would have been produced by the cellular process known as meiosis, which recombines the genes. In the more likely probability that the embryos are not fertilized at this stage, the cells in the petal flares are produced by mitosis and are genetically the same as the cells in other parts of the bloom, so the variations in the petal-end flares would be developmental and not genetic. Which raises questions as to which of the many variations we see in zinnias are developmental and not genetic. At some time during the coming Winter I hope to purchase a stereo microscope with a camera mount, so that I can take micro-photographs of some of my indoor zinnias. It will not be capable of seeing chromosomes (that takes a serious high-power laboratory grade microscope), but it will hopefully be capable of seeing details like leaf stomata or leaf hairs, from which you can hopefully deduce whether the plant is diploid or tetraploid. That is because I want to develop the capability of producing some triploid zinnias, and to do that it is almost a requirement that I be able to determine the "ploidy" of a zinnia by observation. And the microscope will let me study and photograph my zinnias in more detail. I continue to see little creatures that I refer to as "micro insects". I am curious about them. More later. Namaste. ZM
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OK this is good stuff ZM. I was at first blush ignoring features, instead focusing on learning mechanisms,,BUT as you wisely allude, they are one in the same, to wit: the cone IS the floret factory. And while I am aesthetically SO not a conehead fan (at least at this hour), it is so very helpful to understand that this despisable (to me) "tumor" on top of this delicate flower is indeed part of the whole operation. OK OK learning slow but sure. So now I can emesh some aesthetic thinking in my mechanical procedures. On that score, this very morning, my first breached green seed sprouted (seven days and nights I've been sweating), but doggone it I believe it is happening. I've got two rows of breach tests going on, one barely nicked, and two days ago a much more agressive scalping to see if I observe germination differernces. My first hybrid attemp is in day 17 of finished pollinating, will hold off another week to ten days to start pulling./breaching/planting seeds. Woo hoo, more fun than a barrel of politicians. John, appreciatively Low mountains Veracruz PS The colored petals in your foto are indeed gorgeous, undeniably. I also think that Zowie thing is particularly disgusting, but that's just me.
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S I
6 years ago
Are the narrowish ones with the prominent length-wise ridge petal seeds? pls. recap.
zen_man
Original Author
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Hello Sayuri,

"Are the narrowish ones with the prominent length-wise ridge petal seeds?"

Actually, all of those seeds on the graph paper are hand-pollinated "petal" seeds, although the Woolly "petals" are rather oddly shaped tubes enclosing an anther bundle around the base of a stigma. You might say that its curled tubes are what it has instead of petals. That particular Woolly didn't produce any conventional fuzzy yellow starfish pollen florets. Left to itself, it probably wouldn't have had any progeny because its anther bundles weren't fertilizing their stigmas, for some unknown reason.

I remain on the watch for some pick-able tubular seeds to photograph on graph paper. This is a current tubular bloom. Its seeds are immature. (I peeked.)
There are several different petal variations within that one bloom. Tubular blooms also vary a lot from plant to plant. They probably will eventually give rise to several different strains of zinnias. I will expand on that theme in a future message. More later.

ZM
S I
6 years ago
That particular Woolly didn't produce any conventional fuzzy yellow starfish pollen florets

How do you get starfish-less flowers? I'd like less prominent pollen florets in my zinnia if not devoid of it completely (because it's yellow;-} ) -obvious disadvantages with it though, I know....
zen_man
Original Author
6 years ago
Hello Sayuri,

" How do you get starfish-less flowers? "

Just grow some zinnias. Usually you will find a few that don't produce pollen florets (starfish). It may not be purely genetic. Alex and I both have had "good" zinnias that didn't want to produce pollen florets, and we have found that withholding water can sometimes "scare" the zinnia into producing pollen florets.

If I have some "good" pollen from a desirable zinnia, I will frequently just look for a nice zinnia that doesn't have any pollen, which saves me the trouble of removing pollen florets to prevent it from selfing. Zinnias without pollen florets make convenient females when cross pollinating.

That rose-pink Tubie in the photo above actually had several yellow pollen florets, but they were almost hidden in the structure of the bloom. More later.

ZM
ninecrow
6 years ago
Thanks For Taking The Time To Do The Seed Photo ZM...
As Those Were Crossed Would a Selfed Woolly Seeds Look Different?
Although I Find The Wolly's Interesting, Tubeies Are Still My Fave Though...

Got a Bit of News This End.....
My Housing Manger is Looking at Getting Me 2 Permanent Stilled Pots For Outside My Window {Ground Floor Flat} as I Can Stand For a Short While, So Maybe IF This Goes Though I'll Be Able To Join You in Growing Some FAB Zinnias......
S I
6 years ago
Congrat's ninecrow! Don't forget about Calandula as well - coz I was thinking, that it seems plausible to chase all red Calandula- currently there are a few cultivars with red/brick petals only on outside , such as 'Touch of Red' series.

ZenMan, I have taken in your valuable observations regarding 'starfishlessness'-most helpful( just like on the phosphorus gate an eye-opener big time).

Nice to know some 'desirable' zinnia flowers may not always are endowed with pollen florets in abundance and are not necessary freaks.
samhain10 - 5a
6 years ago
Ninecrow - most excellent news! Crossing our fingers for you!

SI - you may not like the look of the yellow pollen florets, but the time may come when you're really wishing you had some so you could make the crosses you want. This is one that I really wished had offered me a few more florets. Though, on the other hand, it did make a nice home for a bunch of tiny bees - ha ha!

BTW - I had another bloom this past season that housed these little guys. As before, they weren't aggressive at all. I kept putting off pulling green seed from that bloom because I felt guilty about pulling their home apart! Finally, I had to cut the bloom, but I laid it out in the garden by the plant to give them the opportunity to move to another flower, which they did when the bloom wilted. I have yet to discover any reason, other than shelter, for why the bees would choose these blooms. On inspection of the wilted bloom as I pulled off green seed, I couldn't see any "alien" structure that they might have made within the blossom; it was a perfectly normal bloom. Oh, and the bloom from this year was similar in size, shape and color to that above. A mystery to me.

Alex
zen_man
Original Author
6 years ago
Hello Ninecrow,

I hope you do get those stilted pots.

" As Those Were Crossed Would a Selfed Woolly Seeds Look Different? "

As of now, I wouldn't know how to distinguish the selfed Woolly seeds from the hybridized Woolly seeds. There is actually a lot of difference in that batch of cross-pollinated Woolly seeds.

" Although I Find The Woolly's Interesting, Tubies Are Still My Fave Though..."

I also prefer the Tubies. At least some of the Tubies. I actually have some "bad" tubies that I cull.

My interest in the Woollies has to do with what they might produce in the way of crosses with other zinnia types. It is a rather safe bet that a cross between a "regular" zinnia and a Woolly will not produce a "regular" zinnia. More later.

ZM
S I
6 years ago
This is one that I really wished had offered me a few more florets - Ahhhh, yeeess, Alex, with that intense magenta/red, so many layers of petals- what a glamour that zinnia must had been, looking like was a huge one too....

Vexing bee behavior, in the absence of nectar - were they being just wishful?

While I was studying the basics of Zinnia anatomy, came across this rather whimsical illustration by an artist Cathy Stevens:
while not the clearest, thought it was cute...
S I
6 years ago
Apology, here is a sharper image:
S I
6 years ago
Apology again, was the same poor quality - please enlarge the graphic for clarity...
S I
6 years ago
Did you say Profusion Zinnias have different chromosome #s to Elegans ZenMan? A seed shop in Aussie eBay expanding its zinnia stock a little by little and now has Profusions Yellow and coral, Swizzle Cherry/Ivory and finally Zahara Double Strawberry YEY!!! What belated by 5, 6 years? Or even 10??

If you are familiar with such genus like Linaria, this same eBay shop just have introduced Linaria'Neon lights' (aeruginea?) seeds the first in Australia as far as I know. Tell me how late it is Alex. Do you like Linarias??? Pretty little flowers in mainly pastel shade-can;t help getting drawn to 'dainty' looking plants...
zen_man
Original Author
6 years ago
Hello Sayuri,

Thanks for zinnia anatomy pictures. One thing they omitted was the chaffy scales, which actually make up quite a bit of a zinnia bloom anatomy.

We tend to overlook chaffy scales, but they provide important functions in a zinnia bloom, protecting the seeds and keeping them from damaging each other. And they make up a large part of the "chaff" when you are extracting brown seeds from a "dead" brown zinnia head.

" Did you say Profusion Zinnias have different chromosome #s to Elegans ZenMan? "

Yes, Profusions have 46 chromosomes while Elegans have 24 chromosomes. For me, at least, that eliminates the Profusions from my zinnia breeding. Some time back, Joseph Tychonievich (the author of the book, Plant Breeding for the Home Gardener) expressed an intent to breed Profusions and Zaharas and possibly some other 46-chromosome zinnias like the Pinwheels. We haven't heard an update on that. The 46-chromosome zinnias have the advantage of immunity from Zinnia Powdery Mildew, which has made them a big commercial success and a "hot item" in the seed trade. I don't like their limited flower size and limited plant height. Also, I suspect that their 46-chromosomes are an impediment to genetic recombinations. More later.

ZM (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)
S I
6 years ago
Oops, I recall this Tychonievich academic in past thread that's where I must have picked up chromosome matching issues (also from the thread with a Texan grower) but Zahara being one of them 46s escaped me - I may have just been wishful because I like the look of double Zaharas a lot. Are Lilliput flowers much like Zahara flowers in appearance? Just growth habits they differ from???
samhain10 - 5a
6 years ago
SI - the Zaharas are really quite pretty if you just wanted to try doing crosses with them and some of the other 46 chromosome zinnias. I grew them year before last, but was too taken up with my crosses between my more favorite cactus/whirligigs to give the Zahara crosses much attention. I confess I haven't even bothered to plant what little seed I gathered from the Zahara crosses. I suppose because when it came down to it, like ZM, I found I preferred the larger bloom and height of the others. And the Zaharas are amazingly uniform in appearance, which is part of their appeal in a landscape setting, but - ironically, I suppose - was part of what turned me off to them. I like the unpredictability of the cactus/whirligig crosses - you never know what you're going to get! :)

And yes, I love linarias! The common name here is toadflax, and is one of the things I was mentioning above to Ninecrow.

Alex
zen_man
Original Author
6 years ago
Hello Sayuri,

" Are Lilliput flowers much like Zahara flowers in appearance? "

The Lilliput flowers are smaller, rounder, deeper than the Zaharas. As you know, the Zaharas and Profusions now have a few double versions. The Lilliput plants can be more upright than the Zaharas, and form bushes with more blooms open at the same time. I grew Lilliputs one year with the idea that they could help me improve my plant forms. Then I switched to the Oklahomas for branchy plants with larger plants and larger blooms. And from the Oklahomas, I switched to the California Giants for even bigger branchy plants. My evolution from Lilliputs to California Giants took several years. I also look for longer narrower more pointed leaves. I took this picture a few days ago.
I am putting almost as much emphasis on zinnia plant improvement as on new flower forms. More later.

ZM
S I
6 years ago
the Zaharas are really quite pretty if you just wanted to try doing crosses with them and some of the other 46 chromosome zinnias,

Zaharas are amazingly uniform in appearance, which is part of their appeal

Goody Alex, I guess I'd just grow them to enjoy or try 46 crosses as you say. Being uniform in itself is remarkable in Zinnia???

ZenMan totally had written off 46s (marylandica?)... doesn't fit in his breeding programs...

In a way, Zahara Doubles are the 'conclusion' of the style, then.

I thought you might, re: Linarias, Alex. Guess what only Linaria in seed form available in Australia had been Maroccana all those years and it's only very recent that perennials like Purprea and Triornithophora(what a pain to spell), and some cream Italian or Spanish one began circulating online... Don't know why, because their obviously garden worthiness, a kind of plants nursery industry would love, for their long flowering period, manageability in their size, colour variations and I bet are easy to maintain- very much like Penstemons? Could even be the next Pansy or Petuna(not in ground-covering ways) Down-Under? We have Kenilworth Ivy Toadflax (Cymbalaria muralis) around as miner weed by the way.

Back to Zinnia, my guess is that it won't be long to see Uproar seeds online in Australia.
S I
6 years ago
Why pointed leaves ZenMan, aesthetic appeals? Do they have more interesting flowers?? Your Zinnia leaves never fail to impress me with their healthiness by the way. So freshly green...

I currently have a Zinnia seedling with 3 cotyledons- is there any significance with it? Not expecting, my hunch says no.
Just gone to see the 3some and found it's developing to have three first true leaves, just like some of your Zinnias - were their flowers any different?? Excuse me for poor photo qualities as usual...

My resent purchase to mix in my potting medium:

SI
zen_man
Original Author
6 years ago
Hello Sayuri,

" Why pointed leaves ZenMan, aesthetic appeals? "

Yes, primarily for aesthetics.

" I currently have a Zinnia seedling with 3 cotyledons... it's developing to have three first true leaves..."

I have seen them off and on ever since I have been raising zinnias. I started calling them "Threesies" and even abbreviated that as "3Z" on plant labels and seed labels. A threesie zinnia plant looks better -- bushier and more interesting and complex. Occasionally it won't be the main stem that is threesie, but instead a side branch.

I have never seen a threesie main stalk that had threesie branches, but an all-threesie zinnia plant would be awesome, and is an on-going zinnia breeding goal of mine. I encourage you to give your "3some" special attention. But don't "kill it with kindness". I did that once with some zinnias -- literally mulched them with commercial fertilizer out of the bag. I'm glad you found some Super Phosphate -- just use it with discretion.

" ...were their flowers any different?? "

Not that I have noticed. But occasionally a zinnia can have threesie stigmas.
I think that a totally plan-of-three zinnia would be mind blowing. Do give your 3some special attention, and look for more plan-of-three zinnias. Incidentally, your photos are fine. More later.

ZM
S I
6 years ago
Yep 3Zs, that was it, liked that nickname, very apt.

A threesie zinnia plant looks better -- bushier and more interesting and complex; I think that a totally plan-of-three zinnia would be mind blowing

That makes sense ZenMan, more branches by one third if it's only the main stalk, 3/2x3/2x3/2x... if total 3z, WOW, infinitely bushier by factor of 3/2, it sure is mind blowing!!! I would definitely keep track of that one with interest.

But occasionally a zinnia can have threesie stigmas -was there anything else that set that Zinnia apart from others? Is Zinnia above your breeding work or straight out of packet Haazeana or something? It's quite striking.
S I
6 years ago
more branches by one third Oops, more by 1/2...
zen_man
Original Author
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Hello again Sayuri,

" But occasionally a zinnia can have threesie stigmas -was there anything
else that set that Zinnia apart from others? Is Zinnia above your
breeding work or straight out of packet Haageana or something? "

That zinnia with 3Z stigmas was straight out of a Whirligig packet. Whirligigs are much recommended for the zinnia grower who wants to see some different things. They have inter-specific hybridization in their ancestry. I give them, and hybridizations with them, credit for many of the mutations I have have found. More later.

ZM
S I
6 years ago
Acquired two potted Zinnias from a local hardware shop this afternoon.

Can you tell me if they are Haageana or Whirligig type Elegans? They are in 4 inch diametre pots and about 8 inch high.

I am not thrilled by these flower colours - just grabbed them because they are different from the zinnias (in seed form) I have got. It is not obvious in the photos but I can't help seeing them 'muddy'. They are opaque and dirty in my eyes. I want my flowers to be some what 'gossamer' (I'm still looking for a right word to describe, may be translucent? but that implies see trough, which I don't mean here - kind of ethereal but I don't think that is a good word to describe coloration).

Found another 3z cotyledons the way, this time it is Aztec Burgundy Bicolor.

SI
zen_man
Original Author
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Hello Sayuri,

Those are indeed Whirligig type zinnias, and I suggest you plant them in-ground and treat them as breeders. Cross zinnias onto them, and use their pollen on other zinnias. They have inter-species ancestry.

" It is not obvious in the photos but I can't help seeing them 'muddy'.
They are opaque and dirty in my eyes. I want my flowers to be some what
'gossamer' (I'm still looking for a right word to describe, may be
translucent? but that implies see trough, which I don't mean here - kind
of ethereal but I don't think that is a good word to describe
coloration). "

Well, you are right, that is not obvious in the photos. The camera does not see them as "muddy".

I suggest you grow several varieties of white zinnias, and select the whites that look "right" to you to cross with other zinnias. Most zinnia colors are based on organic "dyes", except the whites in flowers are not based on an organic compound, but white in flowers is almost always a "structural" color -- like snow for instance. When snow melts it doesn't leave a white powder behind. And the white in zinnias, and most all flowers for that matter, is not based on a white pigment. In other words, zinnias are not like paints, whose whites depend on an actual white pigment like titanium dioxide or lead white or zinc white or whatever.

I don't know how you feel about green zinnias. In general, I don't like them. For instance, the green variety Envy does not appeal to me. Its petals are leaf green. But there is a Burpee green zinnia, named "Tequila Lime" that I do like, because it looks to me like it has been crossed with a white zinnia. This is an out-of-the-seed-packet Tequila Lime that I grew indoors a few years ago.
Its center was a very clean white, and its petals had a white-mixed-with-green look. I think you might like the "look" that structural color can bring to zinnias. This scabious zinnia had a metallic "sheen" that was due to structural coloration.
I suspect it was also crossed with white. But all structural color doesn't have to be based on white. Some day I hope to have a very dark zinnia that I will name "Black Ice". A somewhat different one could be named "Black Pearl".

I say, trust your instincts on zinnia colors, even if they may be hard to explain.

ZM
S I
6 years ago
Black Ice and Black Pearl... very appealing already.

When you finally got 'the flower', you'd know which name to apply I am sure.

Unfortunately we have yet to see Tequila Lime here. Tequila Lime and Red has started circulating online but the rarity dares the sellers to inflate the price, like $7.50 for 25 seeds while Zinnia seeds usually range between $1.50 to $3 for the 20 to 50 seeds on eBay Oz. I am not that crazy over Zinnia as yet to be tempted. I have not prepared the ground enough either.

On the other hand, I have Polar Bear(only white available) and more Envy(only green available) just germinating however...

That 'metallic' white Zinnia with Lavender cast above has been my aspiration ZenMan, along with many others you've bred. I hope you crossed that one to keep the line alive...
S I
6 years ago
In regard to my post above, was browsing the seed shop on eBay just now it is Queen Red-Lime, not Tequila - No Tequila series available at present.
zen_man
Original Author
6 years ago
Hi SI,

Tequila is not a series. It was just part of the name of an individual variety. The Queens are a series of various crosses between greens and other colors. The Queens are not a "look" that I like. Polar Bear is a very old variety. Do you have a Cactus mix available? A mix might contain a few whites. Is Whirligig available to you? It is a mix, and might contain a white. Seed companies that sell internationally should widen your choice of white zinnias.

ZM
S I
6 years ago
No Whirligigs as seeds, only as odd seasonal potted annual like the ones I picked up. However, there are some Burpeeana Cactus Flowered mix available - I would have got them if my garden was ready. I haven't even got any prepared ground to accommodate the hundreds of baby Zinnias already in their germination containers as it is. Although, I must confess it didn't stop me from loading Zahara Double Strawberry (a complete waste in breeding schedule with Elegans) and Swizzle Cherry/Ivory ($4.50 for 10 seeds, a rarity- better be uniform -also a little dubious in terms of crossing with the others?) in my cart though. Haven't checked out yet so before I do, convince me ZenMan please, of the wonders that Cactus Zinnia will provide in breeding- even though you must have done so countless times already.

Regarding ordering internationally, I know that commercially available Zinnia species are permitted to enter Australia. But because the postage is involved, I would shop till I drop in one go but again, my garden is not ready to receive such influx as yet...

This journey sure is NOT FOR A HALF-HEARTED is it huh?

AUD getting a little stronger against USD at the moment and I am tempted, however :-}
zen_man
Original Author
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Hi S I,

" ... and Swizzle Cherry/Ivory ($4.50 for 10 seeds, a rarity- better be
uniform -also a little dubious in terms of crossing with the others? "

Swizzle should cross nicely with any of your Z. elegans.

" Haven't checked out yet so before I do, convince me ZenMan please, of
the wonders that Cactus Zinnia will provide in breeding- even though you
must have done so countless times already. "

The wonders of Burpeeana are "four-fold". The informal flowerform (1), the improved plant (2) form (not "leggy" and a better bush), the "giant" 6-inch possible (3) blooms, and the fourth wonder (4) is why more of the blooms aren't actually in the 6-inch size range. But, as zinnia mixes go, they probably do have some of the larger bloom sizes. If you found a big white Burpeeana, that could be an excellent breeder for you.

" ...my garden is not ready to receive such influx as yet... "

I understand. As they say, "Rome was not built in a day." The outdoor preparation activity is presumably "good for you."

My zinnia breeding goals do "evolve" somewhat. There was a time when this specimen would have been in danger of being culled.
But I like the purple-cerise tips on the petals, and the fact that they are shaped so that you can see deep within the bloom, where there is a matching color at the petal bases (indicating Whirligig ancestry). I definitely wouldn't want a lot of my zinnias to be that no-name off-white color, but it does work OK with the darker purple-cerise trim.

It also points out that the bloom is "open" to inspection. Some of my tubulars have so much flare on their petals that the bloom is almost a closed ball, like for instance, this one.
I actually prefer zinnia blooms that are "open", and many of the tubular blooms do have a lot of "air", but I like it that alternatives are available. More later. I am still busy planting my second indoor generation. That "Rome thing" applies to me, as well.

ZM
S I
6 years ago
My zinnia breeding goals do "evolve" somewhat. There was a time when this specimen would have been in danger of being culled.

Glad you've changed your mind. That flower looks to me 'a completion' of the type. it's well structured. Is it a current bloom? The flower shape too conventional and not big enough for you? There is a market for smaller numerous flowers in round bush form as you must know. It's handier thus more economical that way in nursery production of potted plants. Develop a few colour range of the form and call the series 'Zinnia Button Bicolors' or something.

Your flared tubular flower, again looks pretty much a prototype already -How about 'Zinnia Marshmallows'or 'Zinnia Bonbons'?. I'd say 'Zinnia Marshmallows' because the flares softening the look of the ball flower very much...
zen_man
Original Author
6 years ago
Hello Sayuri,

" That flower looks to me 'a completion' of the type. it's well
structured. Is it a current bloom? The flower shape too conventional
and not big enough for you? "

The picture was current when I posted it. Time flies. My zinnia blooms are never "big enough" for me, but the flower shape was a bit too conventional for me. However, I did like the spooned petal shape and would have liked them to be more deeply spooned. The flared tubular is reminiscent of a marshmallow, not necessarily a great look, though. There is a commercial zinnia variety called "Cup Cakes". It's a scabious type. I should grow some of those outdoors this year.

I am calling one of my current novel zinnia flowerforms "Cyanus" because the blooms look like a Cornflower or Bachelor's Button, whose Latin name is Centaurea cyanus. This is a current Cyanus zinnia example, the picture taken today.
I would like to get the Cyanus form a bit larger (although they are already larger than Bachelor's Buttons) and of course in a complete color range.

My indoor project is keeping me quite busy, primarily starting my second zinnia generation, which involves such mundane things as washing pots. But even pot washing can be fun, in a weird sort of way. Our weather has been quite cold, but our snowfalls have been fairly light. We have a chance of another snow tomorrow. More later.

ZM
samhain10 - 5a
6 years ago
Hi ya'll! Snowing like gangbusters out there as I type this. The weather graph said 1-3" today, and it's already hit the mark at 8:30 AM and doesn't look like it's stopping to me. May have to dig my way out tomorrow!

Have been busy with little seedlings, too, still only daylilies at this point. I'm up to around 340. Wish I could stop as this is getting ridiculous when I think about the space needed later at transplant time, but here's the thing. There are 67 more seeds which are ones I got from other hybridizers - either they were given to me or I bought them. They won't necessarily be anything great, but they all have parents that were something special. Gotta start them. And then there are about 45 others of my own crosses that I already put into the little baggies with moist perlite (actually there are more, but I'm willing to let those go). If they don't get planted eventually, it's bye-bye seed. Well, at least with those, I could always make the cross again.

Oh, well. Are we having fun? :)

Alex
zen_man
Original Author
6 years ago
Hi Alex,

We are having fun. We were supposed to get snow here last night and this morning, and technically maybe we did. The white on the ground is no more substantial than a heavy frost so far, and nothing is coming down now, so maybe that is it for us. Valentines Day is predicted to be very mild -- about 60°F. I will use that as an opportunity to "rough wash" some pots outdoors with the garden hose.

I notice we are right at the 100-message mark, but let's not panic on that. A high percentage of these messages are text-only, and essentially "don't count". I am continuing to plant second generation zinnias, including seeds from the "cyanus" types. It occurred to me that "cyanus" is probably Latin for "blue" (cyan), but I will still use the tag for the Cornflower flower form in zinnias, because it has only six letters and is easier to write on a plant label than "Cornflower" or "Bachelor's Button".

It is good that you will be raising so many daylily seedlings, because there is "strength in numbers" when looking for new things coming out of genetic recombinations. And all of your daylily seeds are probably hybrids between hybrids, so all of your seedlings will be genetic recombinants. You may see some weird stuff and fill a compost pile with culls (do you plan to compost your culls?), but you will have many chances at getting some really good specimens. More later. This text-only message doesn't "count". Grin.

Namaste.

ZM
samhain10 - 5a
6 years ago
Happy Valentine's Day!

Valentines Day is predicted to be very mild -- about 60°F. I will use that as an opportunity to "rough wash" some pots outdoors with the garden hose.
Supposed to hit 40's here, but I'm not going to be out there with a garden hose, I can promise you - LOL!

It occurred to me that "cyanus" is probably Latin for "blue" (cyan), but I will still use the tag for the Cornflower flower form in zinnias, because it has only six letters and is easier to write on a plant label than "Cornflower" or "Bachelor's Button". I noticed that, but didn't want to be a stickler for terms. You call it whatever you want to call it. :)

You may see some weird stuff and fill a compost pile with culls (do you plan to compost your culls?) Yes, but it's going to be like pulling teeth, I'm sure. This year will be the second year of bloom for those first 27 plants (3rd year growing), so I'll need to make some culls of them no doubt. You're supposed to give them the 2nd year just so the blooms stabilize. I'm told they may look different the 2nd year - sometimes better, many times worse. There were a few that I'm pretty sure will get tossed - they looked pretty wonky.

I'm at something over 350 seedlings planted upstairs at the moment. Haven't started anything else yet, though I do have some stuff wintersowed in jugs outside.

TTYL -

Namaste,

Alex
zen_man
Original Author
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Hello Alex,

Valentines Day was nice. The pot rough washing went just fine. It was like a Spring day. A short sleeve shirt would have been sufficient, but I opted for long sleeve because I hadn't applied any sunscreen lotion. I finished detail washing that batch of pots indoors yesterday.

I am continuing to pay more attention to zinnia plant characteristics, such as pointed leaves.
That plant has an "un-zinnia-like" look, and I like that. Since I have decided to "up my game" on plant quality, I find that very few of my zinnia plants are as good as I would want them to be. I culled several indoor specimens today, based on inferior plants. I will try to grow some better California Giants specimens outdoors this year. And continue to breed for longer narrower pointed leaves. More later.

ZM
samhain10 - 5a
6 years ago
ZM - you've really got the "long, narrow pointed" leaf thing down - those are great! I have always thought that zinnias could benefit by some standardization in the leaf department. I mean, when they're healthy, the green is a nice background to the blooms, but they don't much stand on their own, attractiveness-wise - too "every-which-way" to my way of thinking. Your pointed leaves are attractive in themselves.

Coming to the end of February, and we may be seeing light at the end of the winter tunnel. At the moment, the weather map isn't predicting anything under 20* for our nighttime temps; and Weds shows the coldest daytime temp with 32* - after that it's 40s-day and 20s-night. This is an improvement over what it's been, so I'm not complaining.

More transplanting for me today. Hopefully I'll be caught up for awhile then.

Alex
Dirtwreck
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Hi!

Sorry to interrupt, but i have a question..

Are any of these zinnias i mentioned below patented/have copyrights?

- Burpeeana giants

- Zahara

- Persian carpet

- Early wonders

- lilliput

- peppermint sticks

- polar bear

- Whirligigs

- thumbelina dwarf

And also.. Whos the heirloom, and the hybrid?

Thanks!
zen_man
Original Author
6 years ago
Hello Rhine,

Welcome to this zinnia message thread. As far as I know, there are no patented or copyrighted zinnias in existence. When the genetic engineers finally do produce a true blue zinnia (and they eventually will), it probably will be patented, with restrictions on how you can reproduce it. But that might be many years in the future.

The heirlooms in your list are Persian Carpet, Lilliput, Peppermint Sticks, Polar Bear, and Thumbelina. I don't know about Early Wonders. The Zaharas are of hybrid origin, of the man-made 46-chromosome species Zinnia marylandica, but are open pollinated. I don't think there are any F1 hybrids in your list.

You are most welcome to "hang around" and offer comments, even if you aren't actively engaged in breeding zinnias. Just saving seeds from your favorite zinnias is a form of breeding them, which can be quite effective in improving your zinnias.

ZM
samhain10 - 5a
6 years ago
Just checking in. Lovely day today, though I spent it in helping set up the new refrigerator to replace the one we bought not that long back - sigh. I think it was possessed. When you opened the freezer compartment, everything looked like it had been dipped in liquid nitrogen, and I could have sworn I heard a voice say something like "Zuul the Gatekeeper of Gozer welcomes you..."

Anyway, here is my little garden so far. Will start the next round of stuff in a few weeks, but this is all the daylilies - yippee!

Alex
zen_man
Original Author
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Hi Alex,

That is a very impressive Daylily project you have going there. That microscope is very appropriate. I have one similar that I use, although it actually belongs to my son. I find that I usually use it at its very lowest power. Someday I plan to get my own microscope, and it will probably be a dissecting style stereo scope, with hopefully the possibility of a very low magnification, as well as somewhat higher magnifications. Maybe even capable of having a camera attached. I can dream.

ZM
zen_man
Original Author
6 years ago
Hello everyone,

Well, I have been kind of putting this off, but it is time for a new thread. See you all over at It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 48

ZM
Dirtwreck
6 years ago
Thanks ZM! My Zinnias died because they only get a tiny portion of sun everyday. I only have a shaded west side balcony as a garden ( i live in an apartment )

But soon were gunna move onto a different place, with a not shaded garden. i can plant my zinnias there!
four (9B near 9A)
5 years ago

In B I think that little remains for butterflies to drink. True? False?

If true, then I think that B can be regarded as ready for 'heading

even though it is not dead.

Please comment.

In C I am asking

- whether it matters where to cut

and if so, then

- where, and the rationale.
zen_man
Original Author
5 years ago
Hi Four,

This is an older message thread (Part 47, while Part 51 is current) but I will respond anyway. Yes, in your B photo, the pollen florets are maturing and setting seeds and they probably no longer have nectar for butterflies, so you could could remove that bloom if feeding butterflies is your primary motivation. In your C photo it isn't crucial where on the stem you make the cut.. I would cut down lower on the stem because there isn't any significant advantage to leaving a lot of bare stem on your plant. If you want to make further comments, it would be better to add them to Part 51, which has only 21 comments, while this Part 47 now has well over 100 comments.

ZM
four (9B near 9A)
5 years ago
Much appreciated, sir.

Ok, will do.
jaym1818
4 years ago
What's the difference between whirligigs and carrousels?
zen_man
Original Author
4 years ago
Whirligigs are a newer strain than Carrousels. Both have interspecific ancestry.
jaym1818
4 years ago
Ok thanks, seems like alot of the same pics online are used for both types, just trying to figure out what exactly each looks like, started some carrousels this year, thanks for the