Hi John,

" Did you budget a certain amount of time for the viability of the pollen once the floret had been separated from the "host"? "

Yes, I tried to get the pollen applied within 30 minutes of the time when I picked the floret. I have two gardens, a South Garden and a North Garden. The mutant zinnia was in my South Garden and the chosen female parents were mostly in my North Garden. So I spent a lot of time carrying pollen from the South Garden to the North Garden from early morning to late morning. I tried to have the day's pollinations done by noontime.

" I'm looking forward to the day that this makes sense to me. "

The book, Plant Breeding for the Home Gardener, covers several different garden plants, and includes some material on zinnias.

Namaste.

ZM (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

Hi four,

That "rooted in plain rainwater" zinnia experiment is fascinating. That is good to know. Thanks for posting the photos.

Namaste.

ZM

Alex, to my novice eye, the orange looks "delicous", can't wait to see it when more open!!!

John

Veracruz

ZM, I was looking through past posts for the third time, and I noticed that a lot of your zinnias have that "Alf Alfa coif" thing going on- maybe you remember the little rascals, Alf Alfa always had a single strand of hair sticking up, anyhow, caused me to wonder, if you always prune so severely (I guess ides is to focus energy?), how did it happen when you finally "hit the jackpot" with a keeper you magically had a ton of blooms to pollinate??

John

Veracruz

General Q re inherent zinnia tendency: if you grew a flower, planted all seeds, picked one randomly from the resulting flowers, then repeated a thousand times, and again finally picked one randomly, how would it likely compare to the very first bloom you started with?

John

Veracruz

In this "6 day timelapse" progression, what day is the flower ready to : 1. grab a floret to cross another flower, 2. have its stigma receive pollen from a another floret 3. have a green seed (unpollinated) yanked? Appreciate thoughts, John, Veracruz

Individual leaf rooting

Hi John,

That last question probably needs some mathematics to produce an answer. Right off hand, considering the natural tendency of selected strains is to "run out", I would say that it is very unlikely the final random bloom would resemble the original.

" ...if you always prune [ I think you meant "cull" ] so severely (I guess idea is to focus energy?), how did it happen when you finally "hit the jackpot" with a keeper you magically had a ton of blooms to pollinate?? "

Well, I always look to see if a zinnia is a "keeper" before I weed it out. And I grow a lot of zinnias, so I always have quite a few that have "made the cut". But my zinnia breeding is based on the philosophy of Sturgeon's Law , "that 90% of everything is crap." So I am OK with sending about 90% of my zinnias to the landfill.

ZM

ZM, I actually meant "prune", not cull...didn't I notice a lot of your zinnias had been stripped of everything except a single flower? John, Veracruz

Hi John,

" I actually meant "prune", not cull...didn't I notice a lot of your zinnias had been stripped of everything except a single flower? "

No, indeed. I do not strip blooms from my zinnias, other than to harvest green seeds. In the Fall my tubular mutant zinnia bush had upwards of a hundred blooms on it. I do not "prune" any of my zinnias.

ZM

ok sorry ZM, I must have been remembering somewhere else where I saw someone stripping all but the central bloom off plants under the pretext of focusing "energy" or something.

But YIKES...ONE HUNDRED BLOOMS...ok this leads me to: when researching which zinnias I might like to use as crossers, I wrote Benary, inquiring if there was a number of blooms to expect per plant...BENARY'S RESPONSE: “No there are no guidelines for the number of flowers to be expected. It has a lot to do with culture and environment. I could venture an approximate guess since I grow them every year in my garden. This is outside as most do so. They will get a minimum of 6 flowers per plant and up to 12. So an average of 8 per plant.”

que paso? John, Veracruz

ZM writes: after a stigma is fertilized it takes about another three weeks for a growable green seed to be ready.

So just make it a rule to:

1. pollenate myself, and then

2. wait three weeks before yanking seeds?

John, Veracruz

Here's something I just noticed in the garden: Lots of flowers with STIGMAS. Lots of flower with FLORETS. Precious few flowers with both! Is that how they normally grow? Problably only care when I want to ensure that the "selfs" have been pollenated. John, Veracruz (sorry if I'm talking too much?)

Hi John,

" Lots of flowers with STIGMAS. Lots of flower with FLORETS. Precious few flowers with both! Is that how they normally grow? "

Yes. At least that is not abnormal. I tend to favor specimens that don't have a lot of Florets for use as female breeders, simply because they don't make me go to the trouble of discarding their florets. So that tends to make my populations skew more toward fewer Florets. But many of my tubular-based specimens have concealed stigmas, so they have been depending on floret seeds for their propagation.

" So just make it a rule to:

1. pollinate myself, and then

2. wait three weeks before yanking seeds? "

It is a little more involved than that. A zinnia bloom develops over a period of weeks, putting out some new petals with stigmas every day. So if you are pollinating it every day, you will have seeds in various stages of maturation. You can begin harvesting green seeds from the bottom row of the bloom in three weeks and continue that harvest for one or more weeks as you continue to pollinate the new petals every day.

" They will get a minimum of 6 flowers per plant and up to 12. So an average of 8 per plant. "

That might be true of the Benary's Giants, but large F1 hybrid zinnias can be produced.

That is just one zinnia plant. It continued to develop and eventually produced nearly a hundred blooms total by the time frost killed it. Those were relatively large blooms, over 5 inches in diameter. Not typical, but as they say, your results may vary.

ZM

ZM, that's an incredible zinnia BUSH!!

Do you think I'm making a mistake using the Benarys Giant as a parent? I was attracted by the hardiness and supposed pm resistance. But if I'm breeding in low flower production I'll skip them as part of my breeding op and just grow them for the neighbors or something. John. Veracruz

Hi John,

" Do you think I'm making a mistake using the Benarys Giant as a parent? "

Not at all. Benary's Giants are one of the best dahlia flowered zinnias, and a popular cut flower. Benary's is a well-thought-of German seedsman. I have grown several of the Benary's Giant colors, and crossed them with other large zinnias. I personally prefer the spoonish petals of the older California Giants strain. so I also grow them, and cross with them. More later.

Namaste.

ZM

ZM: I'm prepping another seed order and want to include a Scabiosa parent. Can you recommend a "true to type" scab? Thank you, John, Veracruz

Hi John,

We got over 10 inches of rain last night, both our creeks are way out of their banks, and for the first time in the nine years since we have rented here, we don't have an open road out of here. And I am hearing nearly continuous thunder from a nearby thunderstorm. These are interesting times.

" I'm prepping another seed order and want to include a Scabiosa parent. Can you recommend a "true to type" scab? "

I'm not sure there is such a thing as a true-to-type scabi. The Zinderellas have been very disappointing for me, although I have gotten a few that were on-type. You might give the Cupcakes a try or try Candy Mix or Scabiosa Flowered from SwallowTail. You might want to try the Cresto Series at GeoSeed (You will have to scroll down a long way to the bottom of that very "tall" web page to see them). Despite their strong tendency to have off-type specimens, the scabiosa types do create some interesting hybrids. The guard petals on the scabiosa types are rather short, but hybrids involving them with other zinnias can have extra long guard petals, like this specimen.

Some scabi hybrids can resemble echinaceas.

I don't think there is such a thing as a "pure" scabiosa flowered zinnia strain, so in my opinion the best policy is to grow some commercial strains and discard the many off-type ones. They are a good example of Sturgeon's Law, and they invite thorough culling. Big guard petals can produce some interesting flowerforms, like this waterlily lookalike.

More later.

Namaste.

ZM

9", that's a "gully washer" for sure! I'm hoping your beds weren't pummelled!!!? You grow all open field?

We get daily rain. Will through September. But only an inch or two. Never heard of 9, can't imagine. Is your house threatened by a rising creek with more rain n the way?!

Wishing you luck!!

I'll post a pic of MY VERY FIRST attempt at crossing z's. This morning. It's a day of celebrating here.

Looks like Geo Seeds is the best one stop shop option for me: here's what I'm thinking of adding to the array of what came from Johnny's last week:

Candy Mix  500sd 4.15

Cupcakes Series  200sd 7.80

Macarenia  500sd 3.20

Mazurkia  500sd 3.20

Oklahoma Series WHITE  1M 5.15

Oklahoma Series IVORY  1M 5.15

Oklahoma Series RED  1M

Pinca  500sd 5.15

Super Cactus Giant Series  1M 3.15

Whirlygig Mix  2M 3.00

Yoga Series MIX  2M 3.

Better pics, can see the florets.

ZM: All three of your examples are off the charts gorgeous. The blue one is the exact form I'm dreaming of (the color ain't shabby either... Lol). This is the stuff dreams are made of.

I got three more beds planted today...and I promise you my back ain't pleased right this minute. I used the certified, bonafide, trademarked, patented, garunteed ZM spacing recommendation of 18" on center. Broke my heart to donate all that real estate. But I've always approached things by minimizing variables, to lessen the task of trouble shooting down stream.

8 more beds ready to plant, room to finish excavating more, but will save room for Geo Seeds order, and of course some beds to start sewing greenies in after I've let today's percolate for three weeks.

John

Veracruz

Hi John,

I guess you are aware by now that GeoSeeds does not have an online store and that you have to use the old fashioned mail order. You could possibly phone an order in if you don't mind giving your personal financial info over the phone (I don't like the idea of giving my debit card number over the phone, so any order I do from GeoSeed will be an old fashioned mail order with an enclosed personal check.)

Incidentally, there are a couple of things you should know about the items you plan to purchase from GeoSeeds. I am under the impression that Pinca and the Super Cactus Giant Series are both tetraploids, instead of the usual diploids, even though GeoSeeds do not inform you of that.

So, when you cross a tetraploid with a diploid, you get a triploid. That can be a good thing, just so long as you know what is happening. Triploid zinnia seeds are viable, but triploid zinnias do not set viable seed. (It is the same principle as seedless watermelon seeds. Commercial bananas are also triploids, which is why you can't grow seeds from them.) Triploid zinnias set rather normal looking seed, but absolutely none of them will germinate. That can be a good thing--the triploid zinnia plant does not expend any of its resources making seed embryos, so it keeps developing unhindered. That bush zinnia of mine, the one with so many blooms, was a triploid. It was a cross between a selected State Fair zinnia (a tetraploid) and a Burpeeana zinnia (a diploid). So you might want to produce your own triploid zinnias, and you will be able to do that. If you choose to produce your own triploid zinnias, you should re-think how far apart you want to grow them. That triploid zinnia plant of mine eventually got over six feet across.

Namaste.

ZM

Hi ZM

...So, when you cross a tetraploid with a diploid, you get a triploid. That can be a good thing, just so long as you know what is happening. Triploid zinnia seeds are viable, but triploid zinnias do not set viable seed.

Fantastic info thanks very much. I'm gonna gave to think on this. Immediately my mind goes to: "ok, what if I get a triploid that in crazy about?". Am I correct that I can't recreate it without backing up and recrossing the parents ? (Results of which are not guaranteed I'm supposing...yikes that's a whole different conversation...I'm assuming repeated crossing of like seeds yields varying results, just as planting a whole field of one seed type yields all kinds of results).


Is my understanding correct that the value of growing these "one shot wonder" triploids is maybe you get a show stopping mega-blossomed bush? Do commercial companies sell triploids for that reason?


But back on point, I'm gravitating towards reproducibility (if that's a word). I think I'll swap out the "super" cactus for a diploid cactus (I'll email Geo and see if they can confirm they have a diploid cactus). I'll scratch the Pincas. I want to cross a pink cactus, but I'll just grab one out of the mix, since I don't see an option to buy just pink.


You singing "How dry I am" this morning..did your monsoon let up? Still landlocked? Maybe Amazon can deliver supplies in a drone?


John
Veracruz


PS Hmmm, can you cross a triploid with anything?

Hi John,

" Immediately my mind goes to: "ok, what if I get a triploid that in crazy about?". Am I correct that I can't recreate it without backing up and recrossing the parents ? "

Aye, there's the rub. And the parents are long gone, too, unless you were growing them from cuttings or asexually via tissue culture. The heterozygous variability of zinnias is a blessing, except when it becomes a curse. Tissue culture offers a sort of a way out, in a way that I will now explain.

In tissue culture you can culture a single pollen grain into a plant. That plant is called a haploid plant because each cell contains only one set of chromosomes. So it is sterile and can't set seeds. But you can use colchicine or an equivalent substance to double its chromosomes to create a diploid plant from the haploid plant. That plant is absolute pure breeding, because its chromosome pairs are identical. You can produce absolutely pure breeding seeds as long as you just self the diploided haploid or cross them with each other. (No bees allowed.) And its tetraploids will retain that genetic purity. And so would the triploids you created from tetraploid/diploid crosses. This process is discussed in more detail in books about tissue culture, such as In Vitro Plant Breeding (I bought it new, but I would recommend a low-priced used copy--it is not a great book in my opinion.)

Commercial zinnia seed producers have not used tissue culture, except to produce quantities of "femina" pollenless zinnias for use in alternate row F1 zinnia seed production. Some people have contemplated marketing triploid zinnia seed, but to my knowledge, none have actually done it.

" Is my understanding correct that the value of growing these "one shot wonder" triploids is maybe you get a show stopping mega-blossomed bush? Do commercial companies sell triploids for that reason? "

As I mentioned, I don't know of any company selling triploid zinnia seed. I think there is/was a commercial triploid marigold seed. Not gigantic marigold bushes, but good ones for landscaping purposes that don't need deadheading.

" PS Hmmm, can you cross a triploid with anything? "

Good question. I kind of doubt it, but I don't know for sure.

Incidentally, it did rain again here last night and this morning, but I think we are no longer "landlocked".

ZM

Incidentally, it did rain again here last night and this morning, but I think we are no longer "landlocked".

Glad you have an escape route if needed...I'll call off the drone delivery.

I wrote Geo Seeds requesting clarication of Super Cactus status...waiting reply.....

Tissue culture is a tad above my pay grade at the moment.

I planted a few beds of Benary's Thursday...about 80% germination in 40 hours (pics)....was surprised, but I guess I'm stickin em in the dirt correctly......

John

Veracruz

40 hours....

Hi John,

" I planted a few beds of Benary's Thursday...about 80% germination in 40 hours (pics)....was surprised, but I guess I'm stickin em in the dirt correctly..... "

You must be doing it extra good. 2-day germination is usually faster than I get.

There are a lot of crosses I haven't tried yet. I haven't crossed any of my tubular variants with scabious types, so I don't have any scabious specimens with tubular guard petals yet. I think these petals, or petals similar to them, might look good on a scabious bloom.

When you have several different zinnias, the mathematics of how many different crosses you could make between them leads to some very large numbers. More later.

Namaste.

ZM

Hi ZM

Is the orange flower a "tubular"? It's gorgeous. This brings up a question: if you crossed it with a scab, for example, how do you know if the petals end up as guard petals and the scab "puff" ends up in the center, versus vice versa?

John (V)

germination, 64 hours in 112 of 114 Benary's are up. Should I wait another day until I video document the in situ exhumation of the possible "duds" before I have attorney's commence demand for refund litigation?

Hi John,

The orange is a tubular--one of many forms of tubulars. I have no idea what a cross of it with a scabi would look like. Zinnias are full of surprises. Your Benary's germination is great--not necessary for attorney's refund litigation. More later.

ZM

ZM of course was joking about refund. It looks like I'm going to end up with OVER 100% germination. Johnny's seems to load all of the packets with more that the stated quantity. Not sure if this is typical of seed companies....

John (V)

Here's a rogue popped up in my dimestore cactus patch. Takes me back 60 some years when I saw my bobber go under, yanked out a three inch crappie and screamed "Daddy daddy can we keep it?!?!"

John

Veracruz

ZM. Buenas dia! Clarification please...somewhere in the middle of reading the entire history of this thread I believe I recall you advising to only pollinate in the morning....not sure I remember why, and I am surprised to see all manner of florets dancing all day and all night. Is it because maybe the POLLEN isn't "active" after the early hours, and not so much that the FLORETS aren't available? I ask because regarding my very first cross experiment, now in progress, I want to continue to hammer stigmas daily for awhile. How many days I do not know. Which also leads to your comment "wait about three weeks after pollinating to "harvest" green seed"...hmmm.. three weeks after FIRST pollination or LAST"

Hi John,

That is an interesting "Miniature Cactus" specimen. Incidentally, there is such a strain available.

" I believe I recall you advising to only pollinate in the morning....not sure I remember why... "

Zinnia pollen is short-lived. It will not keep until the next day, and, unlike some pollens, you can't keep it in the refrigerator or freezer for use at a later time. Also, it isn't feasible to mail zinnia pollen to other zinnia fanciers. I mean, you could do it, but it wouldn't work. Lots of things happen to the pollen on a pollen floret during the day. The pollen just falls off of the floret due to gravity or wind, bees or other insects knock it off, the floret or the pollen itself dries out, ultraviolet exposure from sunlight kills it, cosmic rays, whatever. The pollen is delicate stuff and "stuff" happens. That is not to say that there is some magic time of day when you should stop pollinating. But I usually stop sometime in the early afternoon. That is not to say that you should stop then. But your early morning pollinations are more likely to be successful.

" Which also leads to your comment "wait about three weeks after pollinating to "harvest" green seed"...hmmm.. three weeks after FIRST pollination or LAST" "

We are dealing with individual seeds, so only the first seed pollinated would be "ready" in about three weeks. It would most likely be attached to one of the petals at the bottom of the bloom. I don't consider it practical to try to label individual zinnia petals, although that has been done.

Namaste.

ZM

helpful thanks ZM. Do I need to consider that I might be grabbing old florets with "extinct" pollen. Am I supposed to be inspecting the floret for existence of pollen? (I could grab my 10x optivisors from my jewelry studio if necessary). How many days should I keep this process of pollination going on before I stop, wait three weeks, and breach/plant?

Attached stuff getting in my way of breeding in the garden, asked wife to harvest. Thanks again...

ZM, regarding the Geo Seed Super Cactus question, they just replied:

1. Cupcakes Series and Cresto? Which will produce greatest percent of true to type scab flowers? Cupcakes will produce the greatest percent

2. I need cactus and was about to order your "super cactus" but a friend warned me yours may be tetraploids even though they're not indicated as such, please clarify Ours are tetraploids

3. Also, do you sell the California Giant or equivalent zinnia? State Fair or Dahlia Flowered will be the equivalent to California Giants

Hi John,

" Do I need to consider that I might be grabbing old florets with "extinct" pollen. Am I supposed to be inspecting the floret for existence of pollen? "

No. Old (yesterday's and older) florets will be obviously shriveled and brownish. No need to inspect for pollen, because if the floret is today's and only a few hours old it probably has many grains of pollen in among that yellow fuzziness. It takes just one pollen grain to fertilize a stigma.

" How many days should I keep this process of pollination going on before I stop, wait three weeks, and breach/plant? "

I would keep it up until you start to pull plump green seeds. You might want to plant some green seeds and get germination of their plants to know for sure that you have got the cross-pollination thing right. That would mean you keep this pollination thing going for about another month (3 weeks for green seed development and another week to get some germination from them.) But you can cut back on the intensity of your pollination efforts. No need to, as you say, " to continue to hammer stigmas daily". I spend a fair amount of time looking my zinnias over to decide what should be crossed with what, and then doing a few crosses. And I take frequent breaks to relax and drink some coffee. I have a lawn chair in the shade under a tree where I can see part of my zinnia patch while I have some refreshments.

" Also, do you sell the California Giant or equivalent zinnia? State Fair or Dahlia Flowered will be the equivalent to California Giants "

That was not a good response. State Fair is a tetraploid, and you have already told them you don't want tetraploids. And the California Giant flower form differs significantly from the regular dahlia flowered zinnias. And the "giant" in California Giants refers to the plant, which is larger than regular zinnia plants. If you wish to grow some California Giants, Eden Brothers offers California Giants Eden Brothers is where I purchased my start of California Giants. Many California Giants still have spoon shaped petals that I like.

I hope to use them to increase the degree of uproll in the petals of some of my breeder zinnias, and the size and strength of my zinnia plants.

Namaste.

ZM (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

Howdy ZM

Magnificent advice....everyday this project evolves, it invariably adds another expense. Now you're telling me I need to buy a lawn chair!

On the State Fair issue, I did catch that. Geo Seeds is new and all reports so far are positive...so I'll kindly pass it on and cut them some slack. Selling seeds is a tough way to make a living.

Sadly Eden is one of the few companies that doesn't ship seeds to Mexico. Not sure why. I'm gonna hold off on the Giants for now anyhow. I've got a nice assortment of seeds already, and when I start pencilling in all the possible cross combinations I get dizzy.

A question about my "miniature" 5 inch cactus, for example: I'd like "self's" for future breeding. Is it safe to assume it will self itself? Or should I be self-pollinating to ensure the green seeds I want to grow are "fertile"?

Also, does pollen from older flowers become less "potent" ? Or stigmas less pollinatable? Any studies on the different characteristics of offspring from parents "bred young" vs old?

It won't be light enough here to get out in my garden for another 90 minutes and I'm itching to get going!

John

Veracruz

A long time ago I noted a forum comment regarding first appearance of blooms: "significant delay by all my zinnias in containers, compared to same kinds inground".

Same for you?

Hi four,

That individual leaf rooting is pretty amazing. You are making growing zinnias from cuttings seem very easy.

" ...first appearance of blooms: "significant delay by all my zinnias in containers, compared to same kinds inground".

Same for you? "

Well, I hadn't noticed that on my indoor zinnias, and they are the only ones that I grow in containers, but come to think of it, they may be slower to bloom. This is a case in point.

I probably should start recording the first bloom dates in my journal. My zinnia population is so hybridized that it is always an issue whether a trait is genetic or environmental. But I should be recording the first bloom dates in any case. Thanks for raising that question.

Namaste.

ZM

Hi ZM

Trying to understand the process... What happens if you hit a stigma with 2,3,4,40 DIFFERENT florets all at the same time?

John. Veracruz

Hi John,

The first zinnia pollen grain to germinate on the sticky surface of the stigma "wins". In a typical field of zinnias, it is common for bees to get a mix of pollen on the stigmas. So that pollen "race" is a common one. A similar "race" occurs with humans.

ZM

Makes a ton of sense. Thanks for the wisdom ZM.

John, Veracruz

The red zinnia is one I am both trying to hybridize as well as "green seed" cultivate. Time will tell

Hi John,

" The red zinnia is one I am both trying to hybridize as well as "green seed" cultivate. "

It would not be my first choice, but different people have different preferences, and as the "zinnia breeder", you make the choices. I see that you have a flower arranger in the family.

ZM

ok please share...why not? I'm in 100% experimentation mode, and only chose this variety because it is a prolific bloomer, hoping it would cover some of the sins of my novice first efforts.....

Thanks ZM as always

John, Veracruz

(not an arranger, just gotta yank this stuff out of my way, it's taking over my test beds)

Hi John,

" ...and only chose this variety because it is a prolific bloomer... "

OK, my primary objection to this red specimen is the significant amount of bare core that it has.

That core now consists of very shriveled pollen florets. This bloom has apparently been producing a good crop of pollen florets every morning for the last week or more. Don't pay too much attention to my bias against bare cones on zinnias. Zinnia Zowie Yellow Flame F1

is a prize winning zinnia that has a huge bare cone. That means that it puts out a bunch of pollen florets every morning, which makes it a great favorite of butterflies. I look for unusual traits in zinnias when selecting zinnias that I will use as breeders (either pollen donors or females for seed production). I chose this one for its unusual lines of color on its petals.

Just be on the watch for interesting details that might show up in your zinnias. And don't limit yourself to just one or two zinnias for breeders. More later.

Namaste.

ZM

OK this is good stuff ZM. I was at first blush ignoring features, instead focusing on learning mechanisms,,BUT as you wisely allude, they are one in the same, to wit: the cone IS the floret factory. And while I am aesthetically SO not a conehead fan (at least at this hour), it is so very helpful to understand that this despisable (to me) "tumor" on top of this delicate flower is indeed part of the whole operation. OK OK learning slow but sure. So now I can emesh some aesthetic thinking in my mechanical procedures.

On that score, this very morning, my first breached green seed sprouted (seven days and nights I've been sweating), but doggone it I believe it is happening. I've got two rows of breach tests going on, one barely nicked, and two days ago a much more agressive scalping to see if I observe germination differernces.

My first hybrid attemp is in day 17 of finished pollinating, will hold off another week to ten days to start pulling./breaching/planting seeds. Woo hoo, more fun than a barrel of politicians.

John, appreciatively

Low mountains

Veracruz

PS The colored petals in your foto are indeed gorgeous, undeniably. I also think that Zowie thing is particularly disgusting, but that's just me.

Hello everyone,

I think we are overdue for a new part to this message series, so I have started It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 52

See you all over there.

ZM

I like the cones, and dislike the cone-less blooms that make no or few visible florets. (Posted here in the interest of continuity. Future comments in 52.)