Meleca, I am in the greater Cleveland area. My front lawn is looking great (now 3 years old). My back is poorly graded and has a ton of grassy weeds that I have not been able to control. In any case, I can send you some Nortron at cost if you want to try it out for yourself. I think 250cc will be plenty--for trial purposes and probably would last you a couple of years. If my math is right, that will probably be $15 shipped. I know the product is registered in Ohio, so I won't be getting into trouble. Buzzsaw, it's not that it's THAT expensive. 2.5 gal will treat quite a few acres. We homeowners are mainly spot treating maybe a few hundred square ft of badly affected area. It's more the packaging size than the cost.

yardmartyr, If I were to do it over I wouldn't use the weed killer. Both the Bayer Advanced and the Weed B Gone have the same active ingredients. One of which, 2,4-D seems to be pretty bad. Some areas have already banned, or are trying to ban 2,4-D. There's an independent film coming out about a doctor in Hudson, Quebec that fought to get a ban on pesticides and 2,4-D was one of the reasons. Since then, all of Quebec has put a ban on synthetic pesticides for aesthetic reasons. You can also see what the EPA has to say about 2,4-D. In one of the areas where I had pretty heavy clover, I now seem to have a fungus, you can see pics in this thread. It's been like that since the clover disappeared. Not saying the weed killer caused it, but that area had more grass than clover and I'm having a difficult time fixing it or reseeding it. There's some other weed there that I'm slowly hand pulling for now but it was much worse. The clover was the big thing I wanted to get rid of. I wasn't even sure there was ANY grass in some areas. So if I had to make the choice again of green lawn with clover or brownish lawn without clover, I'd probably go with the clover. From a distance, you don't see clover leaves, just the white flowers, so if you mow more frequently you can get rid of that. I don't think that just fertilizing will help get rid of it. It might choke it out over a few years, but I don't think you want to wait and find out. If I were doing it again, I'd try to manually remove as much as I could, mow the grass high and frequently and overseed with some good grass seed in the fall. You probably feel like I did at the time. The reason I started caring about my lawn was because I was so fed up with the clover. Fed up probably isn't strong enough. I was disgusted with it. I would mow the lawn and in some areas it just seemed pointless as there didn't seem to be much of any grass, just clover.

jon-you frame your comments in quotations, but don't specify who or what you are quoting. From what Steve and I have pointed out bw compost certainly is not benign to all plants, and can be rendered benign through appropriate composting practices. What is the point you are making? Sandy-many lists I have found show daffodils as tolerant, and I have also grown them successfully under bw. I plead ignorance in knowing the difference between daffodils and narcissus. I have also found lists that show that melons and squash can be grown under bw and that the fruits are not toxic to humans or animals. It seems the toxic juglone is not stored in the fruit or plant matter other than the bw debris itself. I will say that even the slightest trace of juglone spells death to tomatoes and peppers. I have grown Canna under bw. Most of the toxicisity of juglone, in the reports I have found comes from the roots and extend outward 1-1/2 times the height of the tree. So a 60 foot high bw intoxifies the soil in a 90 foot diamater circle from the trunk - roughly. This results in an area where many shade intolerant plants can exist.. That is why I made the comment that 'fringe' areas of a hosta bed under a bw can be useful for companion plants. My daylillies have done wonderful under bw, and the trees, in my humble opinion, are almost perfect 'dappled-shade' because of the lacy texture of the leafy fronds. The area under a bw is definitely NOT deep shade. Even the gentlest breeze allows direct sun to penetrate but not dominate. I have only gardened under bw, not intentionally used bw waste for mulch or compost. As Ken has pointed out, and the sources I have found support, leaching of juglone from surface debris doesn't penetrate far into the soil, but far enough to be toxic to seedlings of shallow rooted weeds and the plants themselves with shallow root systems such as tomatoes and peppers. The deep toxicity in soil comes from the bw root system. So to me, I don't have a fear of the thought of using surface applied bw debris as mulch or in composted applications for juglone tolerant plants. Theresa

wow, this is unbelievable! I was looking for help finding some form of natural or herbal HRT. I am 54, done with all the horrible symptoms that come with the end of periods. I have Crohn's disease and had surgery to remove the last of my colon last September. Since my surgery I dehydrate very easily, my skin is very dry and I drink mostly water and lots of it. I thought all of this was the cause of the dryness problem with my vaginal area internally and externally. I am married and sex has become so painful and sometimes not even possible. My GYN put me on Premarin creme and I do not always remember to use it right before bed, every other night. I know you would think I would remember THAT right? The problem is 1st I am kinda scared of the whole "hormone treatment" thing because of cancer. My immune system is practically non-exsistent. 2ndly my Crohn's keeps me busy with medicating myself to prevent constant diarrhea, bloating, etc. The wrong combination of prevention meds or the wrong diet choice and I am constipated and bloated or having to run to the bathroom constently. Talk about having too much on your plate...the LAST thing I want or need is for my sex life to be screwed up! My poor Husband has enought to deal with just being married to me all these years. He is Amazing, always supportive, loving, understanding and eqivalent to a private nurse when I am "sick" AGAIN. He deserves some serious consideration, lol. Anyway, I get in this site and see the "vaginal Atrophy" comment and think...could it be? I find out it is NOT just me or my dehydration issues, I am having the same problems you are all. The Premarin creme has softened things up some and sex is sometimes possible but I am going to call my GYN tomorrow and ask about the ESTRING. I have been using moisterizing lotions and cremes on the external vaginal area just to relieve the dry, itchy, painful skin so I can walk and not cry all the time from the misery of it. Seriously. Thank God I stumbled in here, Thank you all for opening up and discussing this issue so I could find out not only What is wrong but maybe What to do about it! And Thank God for the good things the internet makes possible.