1000 hrs of framing labor by builder on top of actual framer's bid/wrk

6 years ago

last modified: 6 years ago

Hello All,

I am getting a lot of explanations from my builder on why his team has 1061 hours of labor in additional to the work the actual framer did. I was shocked by this, but I could be wrong in that this is normal.

Builder took on the furring of exterior walls - 2 levels each 1320 sqft.

Framer did most interior walls on all floors, stairs, change order to raise the second floor, constructed floor for 3rd floor addition, 3rd floor walls, roof, roof deck, parapet walls on deck and balcony. Also a change order on 5 windows. I paid the framer in full for his work, he past inspection, and was not asked back by the builder for any corrections.

Builder is saying the 1061 hours are for framing corrections and getting ready for sub work like HVAC, Electric. In your experience, do the builders usually do this amount of work to help trades or take this long? On average, he has two people doing this work. This could be 10 wks of work. The builder's charges for framing are almost double of what I paid the sub framer on his original bid. Does this number from the builder seem inline for a 3360 sqft house on what his people would be doing to support the framer and subs?

Thank you in advance for your insight.

Featured Answer

PRO

Virgil Carter Fine Art

6 years ago

Bob is even more skeptical and thinking about contacting his real estate attorney for advice. Be like Bob...

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Comments (39)

worthy
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
As a builder, I pay a fixed price for the framing as per the approved plans. On top of that would be hourly billing for:

--repairs after the HVAC installers and plumbers are done, including boxing runs, especially for finished basements;

--other assorted custom or unexpected work. For instance, domed-type framing over central staircases that can become quite involved while working atop three floors of scaffolding.

I'm on site and have a very good idea what work and how many carpenters are involved. Cost usually runs 10%-15% of the fixed framing price.

A framing contractor I dealt with delighted in extras, he said. He paid his guys minimum wage and tripled the charge to the gc/builder.
cpartist
6 years ago
I'm not understanding. You have a builder, but you paid the framer yourself? The framer should be paid by the builder. What does your contract say?
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I am a woman and the GC on our house. We had a GC to start, but ended up being our own. You are capable of doing it, it's more a matter of whether you really want to once you know more about it. Live Wire Oak's comments were spot on. If you know good subs, are willing to spend a lot of time researching the correct way things should be done and have a lot of time to babysit and enough assertiveness to stay on subs, you will be successful. You will also spend more money than you think - you will find out the best way to do things and want to go that route for more $ and you won't get all the same price breaks GC's get. I do not work outside the home and do not have young children, have the help of my parents and husband, yet am very busy, exhausted and stressed. You have to be up early and at the site to make sure deliveries are correct, workers have shown up and that they are doing a good job. You have to line up the next subs and be organized, but at the same time flexible. There will be delays due to weather, in material delivery, in subs (sickness, "emergency jobs", injury, etc.) If you are very organized that is good, but you must be just as good at being flexible. If one sub can't make it, can you have a different sub come in earlier without messing things up? For instance, my original GC wanted to keep the inside of the house on schedule so wanted insulation and drywall to go up before the exterior brick was installed and before heat was in (winter time). We said no, which was one reason we parted ways. If you can get a really good GC (which was hard in our small town), you can turn over all these types of issues to them. We got the best in our small town, but that is relative when there is not much competition. We like the control we have over the project now, but things have taken a lot longer than if we had a GC throughout the whole project. The good subs are busy, many of them for GCs, so we are a side job that they work in. Therefore we have to be flexible, but we are almost two years into the build and we aren't done. We had to wait six months for a chimney leak to be fixed (weather dependent) and then for the mason to work us in to fix it when weather allowed. If we had to do it again, we would definitely prefer a competent GC vs doing it ourselves - some days. :-) Some days the fee is worth it - it's hard enough just keeping up with appliance, cabinet, trim, flooring, paint choices, let alone the actual building process. Other days there is a feeling of accomplishment that yes, I can do this. To address some things more specifically: As far as knowing how things should be done, it's true you don't have to know everything, but you must know enough to make sure you have a competant GC/Subs and inspector. For instance, we had three really important things that our GC did not ensure was done, nor did our building inspector. 1) Of all our small town masons, only one knew how to put in weep holes and that it was necessary. Although building code required it, in our small town the inspectors did not enforce it. Our GC didn't even know it was code until I brought it to his attention. 2) Our foundation is concrete block. We are built into a hill. We did not know until later that the concrete blocks were supposed to have rebar attached to the footer and then cement poured in every 4 feet. When we became our own GC and had the perimeter drain redone, the structural engineer for that job noted the pressure against the blocks and asked about reinforcement. It cost an arm and a leg to fix it. When we talked to the inspector, he said rebar and cement was only required if you had uneven backfill and/or the blocks are over 5 feet high. Our GC did not tell the inspector where the backfill was going to be ahead of time and not until we realized later that we had too much pressure on one foundation wall section, did we have to pay for a "retrofit" to install rebar and cement. It however isn't as good because the rebar is not attached to the footer. This is an example of needing to know what should be done and not relying on inspectors (or our GC for that matter). 3) It ended up our bricked chimney had a massive leak from the mason laying the brick in hot weather, without pre-wetting the brick, so the mortar flash dried creating small cracks. He also didn't install thru the wall flashing. The blueprint called for thru the wall flashing around windows and on the chimney. The GC did not tell our masons to do this. When I called the mason back to come do the chimney because of leaking, he said just spray a sealant on it - he had never done thru the wall flashing. We ended up having to call in a commercial mason to install thru the wall flashing. All of these things were learned AFTER we became the GC and read the blueprints. (You need to know how to read them and interpret them.) In addition, all these things were inspected and passed by our building inspector. You cannot rely on your inspector - you must know it. When we talked to our inspector about these issues, he said his job is to enforce code that his county is enforcing. These are MINIMUM standards - not best practices. Regarding a loan, we fortunately have a loan through Farm Credit and they allow owners to be their own GC, but most banks do not. In addition, we don't have a separate construction loan. It was a regular mortgage loan that incorporated the construction part. Therefore we don't technically have a time limit, but we do have to make progress and keep them informed of the progress. Most banks have a 1 year limit, which unless you have everyone lined up and contracted and will not change your mind on anything substantial during the build, it may be possible, but it will be hard if you are doing it all yourself. Also, you do have to be assertive, be willing to fire subs if they are doing a poor job and basically babysit - especially if they quoted by the hour then by the job. However, sometimes when they quote by the job, they cut corners, so you have to watch that too. Also, some subs require payment right away (down payment, then when the job is over). In our small town, sometimes they want money early. It can be stressful coming up with money ahead of time before getting the next draw from the bank. Plus you have to make sure they sign lien waivers when work is done so you don't have liens put against your house by unscrupulous people. You must also remember to make sure you obtain certificates of liabilities from everyone BEFORE they start work. If they don't have insurance, don't hire them. If I had trouble with a sub (just a few), my husband would step in to be the heavy, but in general I didn't have a problem. If I interviewed someone that treated me strange or made a comment about me being a woman GC, I didn't hire them unless I really wanted them based on their reputation. I think that only happened once, but I made sure my husband made an appearance every now and then. Since you have family nearby, have a male member be on call if needed. You are doing the right thing by getting advice and researching first. It may seem simple in theory - just hire good subs, but there is more to it and finding good subs, isn't always easy. If you hire people that have done work for people you know, that is best. Reading BBB or Angie's list reviews isn't always reliable. If you decide to do it, be sure to ask GW for any advice along the way or just for researching. We have found GW, John Bridge, HVAC Talk, Contractor Talk, Roofing Talk, Terry Love, Building Science, NAIMA, the Brick Industry Assoc and a few other forums/informational sites that I don't remember now very helpful and willing to answer questions from novices. At least bouncing things off the pros is helpful. Reading technical journals and instructions isn't always reliable when it comes to real-life applications. Some instructions are for specific regions also, so your weather and climate may affect what is done. Good luck! This post was edited by RQHome on Mon, May 26, 14 at 12:35
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ksc36
6 years ago
An additional 1061 hours of framing? At $50/hr that's over $50,000, more than the whole frame should have cost. You can cut that hourly wage in half and you are still getting ripped off.
User
6 years ago
What type of contract do you have?
PRO
Virgil Carter Fine Art
6 years ago
Er...Bob is skeptical...be like Bob!
hartattck
Original Author
6 years ago
Clarification: builder paid framer out of the draw - my money - then did $50,000 of work on top of the framer’s work.
cpartist
6 years ago
There is no way that framing should cost an additional $50,000. Something is not adding up. Did you sign off on it?
PRO
GN Builders L.L.C
6 years ago
What does your contract say?
hartattck
Original Author
6 years ago
Cost plus contract. Labor is $50hr. Framing bid was $30k. Then the builder did an additional $50k more of work - is charging for $50k more of work. That is taking loooooong time to build soffits.

Thank you Worthy for your insight on 10-15% of fixed framing bid. So even $30k would be a lot. The builder did things like soffits, cutting out for hvac if needed, repairing after subs work and furred out exterior walls from 2x4 to 2x6. The framer suggested demoing those walls to install new 2x6’s, but builder said no, he wanted to do furring.

Let’s not even talk about how the framer gave an original bid for $50k for all framing and demo. Builder didn’t take that because he wanted demo as well and now has over 800 hrs in demo that he’s charging for.

I’m asking him questions and getting a lot of doublespeak or explanations that don’t make sense. That’s why I reached out here on Houzz to see if this is a normal amount of work the builder would do after a framer framed.
hartattck
Original Author
6 years ago
I did not sign off on it. On the first few draws, he had under $10k in framing from his crew. Okay. That seemed okay. Then came a $55k draw request for the line item. Framing in total with materials and the sub is $130k. He keeps telling me this is normal. I see that labor was a place to make more money for him and took advantage of it.
PRO
GN Builders L.L.C
6 years ago
I don't know what your agreement is with him, but any extra work or additional costs involved should be brought to your attention prior the work is being done and you had to agree and sign on it for them to proceed. This is how its always been done.
hartattck
Original Author
6 years ago
Ha!!!
PRO
Joseph Corlett, LLC
6 years ago
Are you in Washington or Colorado where dope is legal? That's the only explanation I can come up with that makes sense. I could have the Taj Mahal framed in 10 weeks and I'm not even a framer.
cpartist
6 years ago
You need to sit down with your lawyer. Sounds like your builder is scamming you.

And honestly, if you didn't sign off on the change order, you should owe him nothing additional.
User
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
This isn’t new construction, correct? This is an extensive remodel? (That should have been a tear down, BTW.) Time and materials and not fixed fee. That’s the only way that anyone I know would even touch this Scope. Because it should have been a teardown.

[https://www.houzz.com/discussions/demo-and-framing-costs-1961-split-level-to-3-story-modern-w-roof-deck-dsvw-vd~5012321[(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/demo-and-framing-costs-1961-split-level-to-3-story-modern-w-roof-deck-dsvw-vd~5012321)
hartattck
Original Author
6 years ago
Extensive rebuild. Split level turned into 3 story. Cost plus.
User
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Should have been a teardown.

Gonna cost you double what a new build would. Meshing old and new is WAY WAY more expensive than building new. You got the low price hack come hither initial price. Now you’re getting g the real world costs of trying to not do a teardown.

Should have been a teardown.
hartattck
Original Author
6 years ago
Thank you for the advice. We demolished everything except the foundation and external walls on first and second floor and the floor in between. Everything else was taken out. It was a shell.
User
6 years ago
That’s still not new construction.
hartattck
Original Author
6 years ago
You are correct!
User
6 years ago
You have a "not to exceed" clause? If not, you are screwed.
Suru
6 years ago
This just sounds awful fishy. I don't understand how framing soffits and furring some walls could be almost double what the entire framing cost. I'm sorry for you and hope this issue gets resolved in your favor.
bry911
6 years ago
It is time for a conversation with your attorney, and possibly even the state's Attorney General.
ksc36
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
"Fishy" post. Per that link framing hadn't started Dec. 5........
Ashley Smith zone 5a
6 years ago
Yes that has me confused too.
cpartist
6 years ago
Yes OP please explain how demo hadn't started on Dec 5th and now on Dec 12th the builder already has an additional 1061 hours in framing which he did with a 2 man crew. With a 2 man crew it would take approximately 66 days. Something isn't adding up.
cpartist
6 years ago
Oh and HERE this OP is asking about framing costs.
User
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Amateurs jump where Pros refuse to tread. Acting as the GC on this project to “save money” and trying to actually keep a shell “to save money” is a recipe for disaster. And where were the demo costs? The permitting and inspection costs? I’m thinking this is s fly under the radar attempt. And any attempt at rocking the boat by the homeowner will result in the unlicensed hacks melting away, leaving the homeowner holding the bag to pay the numerous fines.
hartattck
Original Author
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
I’m not sure why this is ‘fishy’. I asked the question in 2 different ways in hopes of getting some input. Project started in the beginning of 2017. I was not the GC. That was the builder. I have worked with other builders before and it was not like this current experience. I have a builder that has an answer and justification for everything in a condescending tone. He is saying everything is complicated and this is normal. The house isn’t complicated. I don’t think these hours are normal. But if you have someone constantly telling you this is normal, it is a bit like crazy making. Hence the reach out to get some perspective. I was not asking you to judge me or my capabilities. I was asking for input on costs.
User
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
You were couching your requests in the framework of a new build. Which is why you got the answers that you did. Those answers are completely useless when you try to apply them to a different context.

All bets are off on a remuddle of an old home. Not to mention a remuddle that has been ongoing since January. 1000 extra hours is beyond believable for your situation. I’m surprised it isn’t more.

It should have been a teardown.
bry911
6 years ago
Again, see your attorney, the contractor still has certain professional responsibilities. Assuming your side of the story is 100% correct, then I think you have a real problem brewing.

I am specifically concerned about this statement and I strongly suspect your contractor is not on the up and up...

Let’s not even talk about how the framer gave an original bid for $50k for all framing and demo. Builder didn’t take that because he wanted demo as well and now has over 800 hrs in demo that he’s charging for.
User
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Agree with Bry. You’ve got a less than above board hack here. Because that’s the only ones that wouldn’t walk away in the beginning given the scope of this job. And you are acting as the GC on the job whether you think you are or not if you are signing checks to subcontractors. Who controls the purse strings controls the job.

Was this permitted? Is this “builder” licensed? How did you fall down this rabbit hole in the first place? Who designed this remuddle?
worthy
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
My information was on new builds. I follow the same process every time with no surprises. Remuddles, as Sophie calls them, can be another matter entirely. I only pay by the hour where I can see that the contractor hasn't left me with duds and doofuses shuffling around.
ksc36
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Is the 600 sq/ft roof deck included in the frame? Is that the ocean in the background? If so, Mr. Simpson is going to cost you another $20k.

[https://www.houzz.com/discussions/demo-and-framing-costs-1961-split-level-to-3-story-modern-w-roof-deck-dsvw-vd~5012321[(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/demo-and-framing-costs-1961-split-level-to-3-story-modern-w-roof-deck-dsvw-vd~5012321)
User
6 years ago
Is his name Ben Dover ? Wow.
PRO
Virgil Carter Fine Art
6 years ago
"...1061 hours of labor in additional to the work the actual framer did..."

OK...lemme see...suppose there are 8 full billable hours in a work day, so...lemme see...1061 hours/8 = 132.63 man days of work...

With a two man crew 132.63/2 = 66.3 calendar days of work for the two man crew

Say 21 work days in a typical month 66.3/21 = 3.2 months of time, more or less, for a work crew of 2, working full time accruing 1061 hours of billable time.

Did you see an additional work crew working 3.2 months in addition to the work the actual framer did?

Bob is curious...Bob wants to know...
hartattck
Original Author
6 years ago
No ocean. Yes, roof deck is included and that was taken care of by the framer. Duds and doofuses definitely describes some of his guys. They fired one who worked at a sloth’s pace. One superintendent quit, the second was fired - and a lot of these hours occurred under those two people. 3.2 months - that’s why I am trying to piece this together. Thanks all.
worthy
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Way back in the 20th Century, I had a two-man crew, with an occasional helper to move lumber to the second floor, take a month to frame a 2,400 sf home, extras included. Just saying....

1000 hrs of framing labor by builder on top of actual framer's bid/wrk

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