I would still like Raye to share the names of businesses that discriminate against Christians. It would be interesting to learn of even one such business.

I just have to say that I just received the itinerary for our extended family holiday excursion to the Mayan Riviera and Christmas is definitely looking up!! I can now easily overlook the commercialism and over the top, buy, buy, buy mentality. And all the grumpy people. Feliz Navidad and arriba, arriba!!

Cousin! I must have missed the email! Haha

I know that you've been looking forward to this trip.

LOL!! Dorie, there are 48 of us going.......we could easily slide you in and I'm sure no one would notice :-)

In addition to the warmth and sun and beaches (and no overt Christmas hoopla), I am most looking forward to seeing family members from foreign climes I seldom get to see. Including my first face-to-face meeting with my newest grandnephew, who is already 18 months old!!

And I just nailed down the pet sitting arrangements yesterday, so feel relieved about that. Leaving the dog and cat for a week over Christmas was stressing me out. I know they will be well looked after.

I dislike the gift giving part of Christmas. My family is all in their 60's and 70's. We all have everything we need, and if we want something, we buy it. Buying for the men in the family is especially hard. My brother-in-law is the last person that I have to buy for. He does not want clothes. He has no hobbies and doesn't read books. He buys nuts online. Last year I bought him slippers. I cannot come up with anything. And if my gifts aren't bought, I am stressed out and cannot enjoy the weeks before Christmas. That is where I am now.

All the gift giving insanity! Back when I grew up, it was just about our parents buying their children presents because no one had a lot of money and on that one day, they saved and bought us a special gift and it was very exciting because unless it was our birthday, we didn't get a darn thing all year. Now we think we have to buy presents for every Tom, Dick and Harry. Many many years ago, I decided I was not going to fall into that trap anymore and stopped buying people Christmas presents. Now I'm in a family that expects presents to be given to everyone even if you've only seen that person twice your entire life. Once again, I refuse to do so. For one thing, I don't have money to burn and for another thing it's just ridiculous! Needless to say, they are not happy with me.

Lucy, does your brother-in-law like sweets/food? My brother and I don't buy for each other, we "make". I make loaves of sweet breads, spiced nuts, etc. It works for us as that's what he prefers. Or what about a gift card to one of his favorite restaurants?

p.s. I have 4 different nut recipes which I would be more than happy to share with you if you'd like. :)

Arkansas girl, I know how you feel! It took a few years for husband's side of the family to de-escalate the spending, but we persisted in giving lower-cost gifts and finally they are not going overboard either.

It's fun to think of some LITTLE something to please people. For instance, this year dear husband is going to get a big box -- of snack-size potato chips! He always complains that if he resists eating a regular economy-sized bag it goes stale, but if he eats it, it's unhealthy, so he can't win. Lots of little bags will make him happy.

(edited to add: some issues are better left to Hot Topics)

I might be interpreting this wrong, but I thought the reason Christmas was taken out of the schools was because of the few children (as more diverse families moved in to the area) that did not celebrate this holiday and they didn't want them to feel excluded.

So rather than have the tree and menorah decorating the halls, it became snowmen, and winter scenes instead.

Then at work, we no longer had a Christmas party (and understand, I am Jewish and certainly never minded it being called that) but it became a staff appreciation party. And now, we get nothing!

This is all interesting to me. Growing up, Christmas was never my holiday, I took all the hoopla that I was not a part of in stride. Now married to a Christian, I celebrate the traditions with him and my DD's.

beth09, yes I was thinking about doing that. Do you have a good recipe for spiced nuts? Thanks.

Lucy, a 60-70 year old brother-in-law shouldn't expect nor need to receive a surprise as a gift. Ask him or his spouse what he wants. If no answer, get a gift card or Visa card in the amount you want to spend and call it done. There's no reason to stress over such an easily avoidable situation.

(Shoot, we started asking our kids as pre-teens what gifts they would like. There was no need to perpetuate the "surprise" element. People are much happier getting something they really want than getting something they didn't expect, in my experience.)

Lucy, yes, I have a few. I will post them in the Cooking forum later on. :)

The greed, the stress, the pressure. The obligation people feel to buy things just for the sake of buying something they can't afford for someone they don't really even like and who doesn't even need or want it and then they feel compelled to return the favor. Then the trinkets sit on the shelf until they're thrown into the landfills.

I used to really enjoy Christmas. I'd pay attention all year long to find out what people truly wanted and needed. I'd make notes then it was easy to shop. I'd have a list of a number of different things and then I'd look for a decent price. Often I'd do my Xmas shopping through the year. If I saw something on sale that I knew the person wanted (or needed but wouldn't buy for themself) that's what I'd get. I often was done shopping early. Although I'd often make a trip to the liquor store. The recipients ALWAYS liked that present. I'd even shop last minute and enjoy it. Then... (dum.. de dum-dum) I started working retail. What animals people can be. What selfish, self-centered people who don't care about the retail workers. The incessant Xmas carols playing over and over. Having employees whining almost as much as customers. The Xmas thieves, The ones with the customer is always right attitude. It really gave a bad taste for the holiday season. I got to where I just wanted to stay home and get through it. Fortunately I opened my own stores and dealt with it my own way. (Store policy #1 - The customer is NOT always right!) Couple years I spent holidays in the hospital. Was actually quite relaxing. Now I have a little more holiday spirit. Easier to ignore the bad parts of the season.

There is very little I dislike about Christmas. I do miss not having the Christmas with my parents and sister and families is all that I do not like.

Sue

I find it rather sad that there are a lot more responses to what we dislike about Christmas than what we like about Christmas. I am always thankful to have my family around me to enjoy the day.

My worst Christmas Day was when I was with my DH in the hospital as he was spending his last days and I was the only one eating my Christmas dinner all by my self...I never felt so alone...so I gladly fix a meal and enjoy their company.

Here is why I haven't responded. It is clear that my examples would not be taken seriously. I could site many such as employees that aren't allow to say "Merry Christmas", teachers that aren't allow to wear Christian jewelry or tell their students about Jesus (but Kwanza, Hanukkah, etc are allowed), employees that are non-emergency but are required to work Sunday morning. But you'all would refute those.
However, when "lily316" makes what would be in my opinion, bizarre and strange statements there is no refute in the following posts. Just a desire to know where to get the same information to be able to repeat it.

Kwanzaa is not a religious holiday.

Everything except the true meaning of Christmas. As an orphan, I get lots of invitations to go to places I don't want to go. I know that people mean well, but I would prefer to stay home alone. No one hears me when I say that. I've gone for many years, but, tired of it all, I'm now lying about having other plans to avoid hearing their protests. Buying gifts for others is a financial strain for me, but I buy because I know they're buying for me ... more clutter. They have to buy one thing; I have to buy many things. Again, no one hears that. I'm crying now, but thanks for letting me vent. May you all have a blessed and peaceful Christmas.

Raye, having a free and open society requires protection of the practices and beliefs of its small groups and minorities and educating larger segments to develop understanding. Larger groups and majorities have the same rights but protection isn't needed. If you want to understand what I'm saying, think about the attacks and persecution of the small segment of Egyptians who are Coptic Christians. Their rights are not protected. Same has been true of minorities elsewhere - Christians in Iraq, Muslims in China and Myanmar, etc.

The world is a big place and there's room for everyone. The US has freedom of and freedom from religion and the sensitivities and differences of those not sharing what has historically been the majority view (but becoming less so) need to be respected. You're free to have your views and live your life as you want, as everyone else does. Of course. We all just need to remember to not try to impose our views on others or expect others to conduct themselves "our way" instead of "their way".

I was unable to read all of the replies but I truly hope that you all that feel so frustrated or sad about the holiday can find a way to soothe yourselves. I am a very simplistic person and when something bothers me, I just don't do it anymore. We buy gifts for our kids and grandkids. Our siblings and friends have everything they need and we just don't exchange gifts. No party is worth all of that stress that some of you feel. Be kind to yourselves and do only what you have the energy and desire to do. The world will still be turning on December 26. Find your happy places :-)

I HATE the way stores rush the seasonal holidays. It't July and Halloween crap goes up. It's the nightmare before Halloween as the Halloween crap is still out then they threw in the pagan Christmas crap. As soon as Christmas is over they seem to be pushing Spring. I hate the materialism, but am better at tolerating it; I just don't go to any malls, ever.

Employees at places where they're required to work on Sundays are not discriminating because they are not considering anyone's religion when scheduling. For example, they will also require Jewish people to work on Saturdays. It's not as if Christians are being singled out... No one's religion is taken into consideration.

Not being allowed to say Merry Christmas at work? You also aren't allowed to wish anyone a happy whatever-other-religious-holiday it may be for you if you're not Christian.

Teachers not allowed to wear religious jewelry, with Christians and crosses singled out? I doubt it.

Teachers not allowed ro "tell" students about Jesus? You mean, not allowed to try and convert students of other religions or teach Christianity as fact, I'm sure. That's not discrimination.

When I was in high school, we took a humanities class where we learned about all the major religions and what they believe. I took a similar class in college. Learning about religions is not prohibited. Teaching religion, any religion, like it's a fact is not allowed in pubic schools. It's not discrimination. How would you feel if they wanted to teach some religion that's not Christianity as a fact or Muslim teachers were trying to convert students/indoctrinate them? I think that you'd probably feel differently.

Pubic schools generally give students two weeks off for Christmas. No other religion is given the same for any of their holidays. Is this discrimination?

Yeah, you're right that people are going you refute it when you say that Christians are discriminated against, because it's absolutely not true.

"Pubic schools generally give students two weeks off for Christmas. No other religion is given the same for any of their holidays. Is this discrimination?"

I believe this is now officially referred to as "winter break" :-)

Everyone knows it's Christmas break. ;)

However, when "lily316" makes what would be in my opinion, bizarre and strange statements there is no refute in the following posts. Just a desire to know where to get the same information to be able to repeat it.

Raye Smith, I assume you are referring to my post in that last sentence, since no one else said anything like that except me. I can assure you, I in no way wanted to repeat such a thing. I merely wanted to verify that such an accusation was in fact true. As (I thought) I made fairly clear in my post to lily, I don't care for any politician, this wasn't your average Ihatetrumplet'sgetthegoodsonhim post. But I found lily's statement rather shocking nonetheless, and again, just wanted verification.

If you were not referring to my post, please kindly disregard. If you were, it might behoove you to verify ones intent before mistakenly commenting on anothers comment. ;)

And for the record, I am a Christian, and totally get what you're saying. :)

Thanks Beth, I found it odd that posters refuted my comments but there weren't any about "lily316's" post. So glad to see someone else found those statements shocking.

I do find it interesting that "what you dislike about Christmas?" became "what do you dislike about Christians?" in many posts.

To the doubters starts here: :)

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/10/04/school-orders-teachers-to-remove-religious-items-from-classrooms.html

I'd like to say I am surprised at the reaction to your post vs. lily's also, but I'm not. Maybe I've been on too many boards. ;)

If members respond to political comments, we get blasted for bringing politics into KT, or for derailing the thread. If we ignore political comments, we get blasted for not refuting.

Raye- perhaps you feel that way because, for many of us, Christians attempts to claim Christmas as a religious holiday is precisely what we dislike the most about Christmas?

Throughout human history, almost every culture in the world has had some sort of festival, gathering, holiday, etc at this time of year.

Christians co-opted MANY of the traditions of these other cultures, the tree, the Yule log, Holly, mistletoe, Santa etc and yet, they somehow feel it's okay to go around telling the rest of us that we are ruining "their" stolen holiday. That we aren't celebrating the REAL reason for the season.

Jesus is not the REAL reason for the season, anymore than Santa is the real reason. If that is why you choose to celebrate, fine. Great!! Enjoy yourself, please! But don't tell the rest of us that we are wrong just because we don't have the same religious beliefs.

"To the doubters starts here:"

I read your article and there's absolutely nothing the schools have done that's discriminatory towards Christians. Nothing. The directive would apply to any religion. But, since it's obviously the Christians who were acting badly, they are the ones that are undoubtedly, and specifically, having to be told to stop it. Some of the things that school had to specifically mention are completely ridiculous in that the teachers undoubtedly knew better in the first place and were just being awful to act that way...

Veggie, I just love your sarcasm! Of course wearing a cross or carrying a Bible couldn't constitute bad behavior and wouldn't hurt anyone.

Raye, if you'd like to continue the discussion of discrimination against yourself because of your Christian religious practices, perhaps you could start a thread in the Hot Topics area. Let us know when you do.

You still don't seem to comprehend. There is nothing in that opinion article that indicates discrimination against Christians. Instead the administrator of that public school was reminding the school employees that printing out signs festooned with angels and printed bible verses and quotations, and posting them in classrooms, hallways, offices and common areas, is a violation of "the Establishment clause" of federal law. That is the "bad acts" veggiegardnr is referring to. -- breaking federal law.

The writer of the article reports the fact that the administrator issued that directive, but then the writer inserts his opinion that asking employees to follow federal law is asking them to relinquish their Constitutional rights. Its not. The writer noted that the directive didn't mention the Koran or prayer rugs and implied that that meant those would be allowed and the directive was solely targeted at Christian symbology, when a more rational inference to draw is that the directive mentioned specifically infractions that had already occurred, frequently.

Lastly to support and comment on this directive, the writer sought out an "expert" and who better to help interpret how the Establishment clause affects employees of a government entity such as a public school than an administrator of a private Christian college, to which the law doesn't apply. <--- that's sarcasm.

Maybe you should read the article, Raye. They didn't say anyone couldn't wear a cross (jewelry) or have a bible with them, for their own private use.

“You are hereby directed to remove all items which contain religious symbols, such as crosses, printed bibles, angels, bible verses, printed prayers, and biblical quotations from the common areas, hallways, classrooms, and office of East Lake Elementary School,” the edict read.

“Further…religious and biblical references should not be included in notes to parents, email signature lines, or any other correspondence sent on behalf of East Lake Elementary School.”

There is absolutely NOTHING there that says a teacher cannot wear a cross (which, by the way is NOT a requirement of the Christian faith) or have a small bible for their PERSONAL use (also not a requirement of the Christian faith to go around carrying a bible). It sounds like there were teachers openly displaying bibles/having bibles sitting on their desks, printing out signs with angels, posting bible verses, displaying large crosses (in signs or sitting them on their desks, not the small jewelry necklaces, which the article specifically says are not banned), sending home notes to parents with biblical references, etc. Yes, they were obviously behaving badly and undoubtedly knew better. It's just another example of Christians behaving badly and being told to stop. The directive does also cover all religions.

Christians aren't bringing anyone to God with this sort of behavior. It actually drives people away and divides our nation. But, Christians just don't seem to care. Of course, the Christians would have a huge fit if teachers were displaying the Koran, posting stuff from it, sending home letters to parents quoting it and talking about Mohammed, etc...

Unfortunately, bob, I think that most of them actually understand federal law. They just don't like it. Pretending they don't understand and pretending they're the ones being discriminated against (ironic, imo, that they do this while being, overall, an incredibly intolerant and discriminatory group themselves), etc...that's part of their strategy to get their way.

There seems to be some major misunderstandings between constitutionality and religious discrimination. Adhering to the First Amendment, which is what that article and the school district to which it refers were attempting to clarify, is actually intended to AVOID religious discrimination. And is the law of the land AFA the public school system (a government entity) is concerned. If you want your child to have a religiously focused education, then enroll them in whatever private school supports your own personal religious beliefs.

"The War on Christmas" is meant to be divisive. What a shame during this time of year when we should be feeling peace, love, and joy!

This interesting history of the War shows its correlation to what was happening religiously, culturally, and politically during the past decades that we've been fighting this War. Yes, decades! Henry Ford wrote in 1921 “Last Christmas most people had a hard time finding Christmas cards that indicated in any way that Christmas commemorated Someone’s Birth.” Ford was an avowed anti-Semite and blamed everything on the Jews. Bill O'Reilly revived the War in 2004 as a war on liberals.

We can disagree on a lot of things politically, but must we use Christmas as a weapon too?

https://www.snopes.com/2017/11/29/the-war-on-christmas/

I HATE this discussion that has came up for the last few years. It is a fake urban legend. I worked for one of the companies that was accused of the "you can't say Merry Christmas". It was fake. Our signs said Happy Holidays, so we could put them up before Thanksgiving and not take them down until after New Years. DO YOU GET IT? It covered Thanksgiving, Hanukkah, Christmas, New Years, and whatever. You have no idea how long it takes to change all the little and big signs out for every freaking holiday, unless you worked retail and I am sure that all the people keeping this going never had to deal with all this and the jerks during the holidays. There are hundreds of signs, flags, toppers, ect. Happy Holidays covered it all. We were free to say anything we liked. (Except for some of the real jerks, and you could only smile and say have a nice day.) Usually there were only a few of those.

ETA: Some of those Happy Holidays signs were red and some were green. Guess what, when you flipped them over they said "Happy Valentine's Day". Some of the said "Clearance" flip the Green get clearance and flip the red and get Valentines. IT HAD NOTHING AGAINST CHRISTIANS OR ANY OTHER RELIGION! That way you only had to change the little paper flags on the shelves!

I hate being reminded that I no longer have my parents...

I hate the fact that even threads about Christmas become divisive and mean-spirited at the Kitchen Table these days...

What I really dislike is wrapping the presents. I don't quite understand why this is so, because I used to go to great lengths and lots of time in making beautiful packages. Even did ornate folding of the gift wrap. Maybe just burned myself out, because now I am a terrible procrastinator about the task. Even with using gift bags, I don't like it because one has to get the tissue just right.

nycefarm, sorry about the loss of you parents, this is a tough time of year to deal with that.

Emory - I agree, but unfortunately our society has become very intolerant of anyone that presents a different viewpoint from the media or poll approved one.

Oh Walnut Creek, I am so glad to find someone else who hates wrapping presents...anytime!...not just Christmas!

I LOVE wrapping presents! I put on Christmas music and enjoy my cats who jump around in the tissue paper and I love making the gifts pretty. One of my special holiday traditions.

First the conservatives complained that too many threads were becoming political. Then the conservatives made the Christmas threads political. Now the conservatives are complaining about the Christmas threads being political. Go figure!

Mom would buy gifts all year on sale and stash them in her closet. Often she'd forget what all she bought, and hubby would end up with 9 golf shirts! He loves golf shirts, and she could shop for him easily. Socks, t-shirts, she kept us well supplied. She used the biggest gift bags she could find, and cram them full. I miss her. The step-family gets together, and I've never once been invited (that's okay though!) since she died. I don't get it, but that's the way it is.

We avoid malls at any time, and especially at this time of year. Even Costco, I need to buy some things, but that can wait until after Christmas. I dislike shopping, period.

We're both enjoying Christmas music this year, which is very unlike us. :-)

There are a lot of things stressing me out about Christmas, but what I dislike is the endless traditional Christmas music. My husband can listen to it for months on end and it drives me nuts. I can handle something like the Manheim Steamrollers or New Song for a week, but the Viennanese Boys Choir and the likes give me a headache and make me cranky. Can't do other classical music either. It's weird. Other styles of music I don't like do not affect me that way if I have to listen.

In general people seem so preoccupied and short tempered.

Too many ads running over and over. It starts at Halloween and gets worrisome by December. Christmas should be the last two or three weeks in December.

Jasdip, this year I found out how online shopping is indeed my friend! Packages are being delivered early in the morning, in the evening and on Sunday.

Tonight I am going for the first time to the mall. But only because it's a tradition for DH and I. I pick something out for myself. I already bought things for him. I have one thing I want to get for my DD. Then we have dinner.