The cost per sq foot increases when you are adding a very small addition. There are certain fixed costs involved. The numbers you were quoted sound like WAG numbers to me. WAG = wild ass guess. Could be SWAG numbers....SWAG = Scientific wild ass guess. The only way to get accurate figures is to get the plan done and actual bids based on the plan.

More like new construction costs are $300 and remodel costs are $600. This is why I said you need a contractor on board to tame the Design World flights of fancy. That is definitely a WAG from someone that doesn’t own a hammer and hasn’t hired an electrician for 25 years.

I just paid $400+ per sq.ft to remodel a small bathroom. That was for labor only. I am in a very high cost of living area, but these days there aren't too many cheap locations.

A "rule" I heard was that if you are touching 70% of the existing structure, you might as well tear down and get a whole new house. You might be close to that ratio.

My divorced son lives in a one BR apt with a loft (with an actual staircase) where his two children (boy and girl) stay when they visit on weekends. There is only 1 bathroom in this apt. The teenage girl finds this appalling and complains endlessly. When I go to visit, I stay in a motel, even though my son would happily give me his bed and sleep on the couch - it's the thought of 4 people using 1 bathroom - just too many people. Since he only has the children every other weekend, and a 2 BR unit with a 2nd bath would cost him $1500 a month more to rent, they are making do, but it would never work on a daily basis.

As cpartist said - yes, people used to live with one bathroom - my father grew up as the youngest of 10 children, but they were quite lucky - they had a two-seater outhouse in back (he was born in 1901)! They also only bathed a few times a year. Thank you no...

I grew up with three bathrooms. One was even inside the house.

Another thought, I would put a door to separate the bedroom wing from the main living area. Once you have children irt will be nice to shut the door when you want to watch TV, or be up late.

Having visited family in Ontario, I think that bathroom and living space expectations seem to be a bit different than in the States.

In your house, there is another bathroom in the basement. Are there legal living spaces there? Bedrooms with windows? You could open up the rear entry area with open stairs, a French door to the back yard, and make the basement more part of the house. I'd even (yes, I would) have the laundry in the basement. Gives you more room to configure upstairs as you need, with a proper dining room.

If you did that, you could leave the existing upstairs bathroom plumbing where it is, and either join the two into one big bathroom, or "swap" and have the full bath as an ensuite and the half-bath as a powder room. Extend the bedroom toward the front, taking over one of the bedrooms for master bedroom and closet, and the other is a den or nursery.

We are meeting with the architects today. At this point, we plan to iron out our floorplan and have preliminary plans drawn up that we can take to contractors to get rough pricing. If it's not feasible right now, then we will have to wait until it is. We don't want to half-ass it just to keep it under a certain price, we would rather wait until we can afford exactly what we want. What we plan to explain at today's meeting:

- "Main bath" in current layout will become ensuite.

- New main bathroom to be added where "dining room" is in current layout.

- No main floor laundry (currently we have a nice big basement laundry with utility sink and space for hanging, organizing, and sorting clothes.

- Dining room to be in-line between kitchen and living room.

The reason we don't just wait and do a new build elsewhere is because we have a beautiful, big, semi-rural lot that is still within city limits, with city water, and a quick drive to town. We have lots of mature trees and we just can't see any other lots being available to build new that would be comparable to what we have now.

In addition, I don't know how it could end up cheaper by tearing down the house (keeping existing foundation and basement) and adding foundation + building entire new main floor?

Your lot sounds beautiful. It is the right reason to expand your current home right where you are now. As to pricing, I hope you receive realistic bids based on your new plans. It is a great idea to wait until you have the funds if the proposed expansion you plan becomes unaffordable once the contractors bid on the addition.

"I don't know how it could end up cheaper by tearing down the house (keeping existing foundation and basement) and adding foundation + building entire new main floor?"

Look at it this way, would you rather pay someone to:

1) build a new house;

Or

2) Carefully tear down most of a house, dispose of it, fix what broke, protect what is left from the elements, protect what is left from vandals, repair what was broken, build new walls to match existing walls, remove old plumbing in existing walls, install new plumbing in existing walls, remove old wiring, install new wiring, remove old ductwork, install new ductwork, . . .

There comes a point in a remodeling where it becomes cheaper to tear it down and start from scratch. In many of my projects we have to factor in the sentimental value for a cottage that has been in the family for nearly a century.

Fair enough. In that case, you would still keep the existing basement correct? I finished it to about 75% 3 years ago. Just needs paint, trim, and flooring.

OK, here is the VERY rough idea that we came up with last night. Not sure if this makes sense. Hopefully everyone can make this out.

However, now we aren't sure how to add a front entrance closet. And, the previous entrance closet/laundry closet became a large walk in closet but that might not be a good idea.

You could take a small portion of the closet in bedroom 3 (front bedroom on the left) to make it a coat closet. Just add a door in the entrance hallway and a wall to separate the coat closet from the rest of the closet in that bedroom. Alternate solution is to move the front door slightly to the left and add a closet behind the front door which is in a dead end location right now.

Adding a closet behind the front door would certainly work but we also like the thought of a window there to let light into the entrance area. If the bedroom closet is 24" deep, that would make the entrance closet 24" wide. Not sure if that would be "useable" enough.

Do you have enough room to add a clerestory/transom type window above the door for light? Something like these insp pics below. That way you have light and room for a coat closet.

Talk to your licensed architect about the extent of the remodeling/addition vs building new.

And don't forget the window.

Or you can add a coat closet using part of the walk in closet. There seems to be more room in that location for you.

Definitely could fit there, wasn't sure if it would be proper to put the coat closet that far into the living area, out of the "entrance" space.

Edit: I think the front entrance closet will stay where it is (back side of old laundry closet) as we really like the window in the entrance. This is what we will present tonight and we will have to let them determine how to size/layout the closets. Also have to let them figure out the ensuite layout and how to provide access from our bedroom.

Well, our meeting with the architects went well yesterday. First thing we made clear is we didn't want to be constrained by a "budget" that we don't even have nailed down yet. We want the end product to be exactly what we want and it is more important to get the floor plan there first, then worry about costs and budget later. If it is not feasible now, we will have to wait. That being said, these were the major changes we asked for:

- No more main floor laundry (reasons posted above)

- Full bath in the above floor plans will become master ensuite

- 2nd (main) bathroom to be added with full size vanity and bath/shower combo

- Dining room located in-line with kitchen and living room

- Additional closet space to be added (not in bedrooms)

They were very receptive to our requests and said they should have another draft available next week. Will post up the next revision for some more comments when we have it. Thank you to everyone for the critiques and suggestions, they were very helpful.

We just got the latest revision. It hits all of our wants plus space to 'add' a main floor laundry in the future if we wanted (large closet adjacent to ensuite. This new plan uses an entire new roof as opposed to trying to work with the existing roof/trusses. Should look significantly better than trying to piece together roof lines. We are meeting next week to discuss. Curious what more experienced eyes think of this new floorplan?

Love all the extra storage! I like the placement of the dining area, too. Why not plan the laundry now? Is it in the basement? It is sooooo convenient to have laundry on the main floor.

I don't like the toilet right as you walk into the master bath. I would look into rearranging the bathroom so it's not right there as you walk into the room.

Hate the second bath for the same reason. You walk in and see...the toilet! Make the front hall closet smaller. Make the second bath larger and rearrange the space so the first thing you see is not the toilet and so there's more storage for the bathroom.

Actually if it were me, I'd get that bathroom out of the interior room, move it to where the future laundry room is and move the future laundry room to where the bathroom is. This way the bathroom is closer to the two other bedrooms.

I agree. Do the laundry now.

You have all bedrooms on corners so utilize the space and put windows on two walls for more light and for cross breezes.

Vet your kitchen in the kitchen forum. It needs some help. For starters, why isn't the whole back wall in the kitchen windowed for natural light?

In fact I'd add a heck of a lot windows along the back including where you enter from the rear. With so few windows, the house will be dark and gloomy.

Why is there a door to the stairway from the main floor? How do you utilize your backyard if you want to barbecue or just hang out in back?

Can we see elevations and how the house lays out on the property?

Looks great - glad you were able to incorporate everything! I wish the fireplace was not in the middle of the dining room, but I understand you are working around what is existing. My two suggestions would be these:

The entry hall seems rather long and narrow and could feel a bit closed in. I live in MN, and I understand the need to keep the cold out so I don't know if I'd suggest a half wall between the hall and living room, but I might consider a transom along that whole wall to capture additional light from other places in the home.

Secondly, if you can work out some accordion or pocket door situation for the closet near the back door, it might give you a little more space in that area with people coming in and out. Good luck!

@auntthelma - We might rough out the laundry now but we have a relatively large laundry room downstairs (that still needs to be finished) which affords us room to hang clothes and put a wash basin. The upstairs laundry was more a consideration for when we are older. I understand the convenience but we have A LOT of space downstairs and would rather see that space as storage for the main floor at this time.

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@cpartist - We are gong to ask about the design choice to put the bathroom where it is as opposed to beside the ensuite. We are OK with having it in the interior space but a little hesitant on the layout as well. I would prefer something where you see the vanity when the door is open (typically we leave it open when not in use) but also don't really want the toilet directly behind the door. The main bath is our main area of discussion when we meet with the architects next.

The kitchen window is supposed to be 6' wide and we would have to determine if we are up for losing cabinet space for more windows. We have always wanted a lot of light and 'big' window(s) in the kitchen but need to figure out cabinet space first.

The door to back entry is currently existing so I think they just left it as is. It may or may not be removed going forward. We have a 16' wide x 22' long deck out the back door we use for BBQ and summer entertaining. We don't have elevations yet, we should get them after we meet next.

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@mnmamax3 - I hear you, the fireplace is an existing fireplace and brick chimney that also serves the basement firebox (one day to be gas insert). We will definitely have to consider the design of the entry hallway but we do like how it's separated from the rest of the living space. Lastly, the rear entrance closet will no longer be there as we are removing it in favor of an open alcove with built-in storage/shelving. Should open it up nicely considering the ceiling height in the entrance.

Teardown for sure now will be cheaper than the “dream” renovation.

@Sophie Wheeler - Once we take the plans out to contractors, we will find out if that is the case. The architects don't seem to think so but I understand it is the contractors who have the final say on costs.

Much improved, but I wonder what is the extra storage for? Could the large extra storage be used for a walk-in master closet? I would use one to put laundry on the main floor. Seems to me the extra storage could go in the basement unless it is used on a very regular basis such as a laundry would be. I could understand the storage if there wasn't a basement.

I do agree with the master bath and the toilet position. If somebody doesn't close the door that would be a nice view from the bed. The position in the 2nd bath doesn't bother me at all.

As for whether remodeling or tear down and build new it really depends on lots of factors. This is very close to actually building a completely new house. But I know in many areas there are long term effects to being able to use existing foundation and other parts such as taxes being lower with a remodel than a new build which should also be factored in as it can end up being a substantial saving depending on age of the structure. Other things are permitting as some localities have different rules for remodels vs. new build and one may be easier to get than the other. There are lots of factors to consider than just the initial cost when deciding whether to remodel or tear down. It is also very local.

HUGE improvement and I'm so glad to see that your took our comments in the spirit in which they were given - trying to be helpful!!!

I'm not that bothered by the toilets but I guess it would be nice if they can be moved. I've lived in many a place where the toilet was the first thing one saw from the bathroom door. It didn't keep me awake at night, or cause me to be nauseous.

There is no such thing as TOO MUCH storage in any house! We all have a lot of STUFF! And not all belongs in the basement.

I actually prefer a basement laundry. Okay - if I could have a 12x13 ft room on the 2nd floor given over to laundry, BIG deep tubs, an ironing board that was always up, and my Miele rotary iron, plus some countertop for folding etc, I'd prefer that. Even enormous multi-million dollar houses never give that much upstairs real estate to a laundry room. But in a basement, one HAS that kind of room - and even lines for things that really don't belong in the dryer. Stairs are good for you! What you might ask your architect to do is find a place near the bedrooms for a laundry chute if they are allowed in Canada. We had one in the house we lived in from the birth of my children until they were 9 and 11 and it was a gift! Only carried laundry one way!

I commend you for being sure you are getting it right, even if it means a wait. Remodeling is a very stressful, difficult, expensive process to go through, and it's only worth it if in the end, one gets it "right".

I would opt to use the larger storage room for a bathroom. It might be cheaper to have plumbing on the same wall as the master bath. I’d definitely go back to having a laundry room on the main floor, probably in the smaller storage room. I’d redo the master bath layout. It does not make sense, as cpartist pointed out.

As cpartist mentioned, you will want two windows in bedrooms for ventilation and light. I understand about your kitchen windows sacrificing space for cabinets but you don't have any windows along the fireplace wall that I see. You could put tall windows on either side of your fireplace or transom windows across the whole space or even skylights. Even in the storage room (if you decide not to turn it into a laundry room) you could add glass block for light and privacy. I hope you enjoy your new/old home!

Do you ever spend time in the backyard grilling or anything? If so I would add a door from the kitchen to the backyard. Kind of like this.

Here's somewhat of what I'm trying to convey. Do I think the master bath is still ideal? No. I'm thinking the whole master suite could still be worked on. Especially with sliding doors for the master closet.

Note the change in the kitchen with more windows. I moved the fridge to the sink wall so now you have the ideal work flow and your fridge and pantry are on the same side. I moved your pantry back and made it an actual closet which is less expensive than pantry cabinets.

By doing this your island actually got larger so now you could fit 4 seats if you wanted. I added windows over the sink area to bring in light and took away the uppers. If you go with all drawers for your lowers, you'll find you really need a lot less uppers. I made the stove wall with uppers and moved the stove down a bit more.

I added windows on either side of your fireplace.

I switched the bathroom and the open storage so now the bathroom is larger and closer to the other two bedrooms. This also gives more storage space on the vanity.

I put the laundry where the bathroom was. Kept the sink where it was or that can just become storage space.

Lastly added windows to the bedrooms.

Hope everyone had a good holiday. We are progressing along with our addition plans. Since I last posted, a few big changes have been made.

At the discretion of our architects, we have decided to fully demo the first floor. The roof and all of the interior and exterior walls will be taken off. Everything will be taken down to the subfloor and re-framed with 2x6 walls standing 9 feet. Having to rebuild 70% of the exterior walls already plus rebuilding the portion of the walls around the windows made a compelling argument to totally rebuild the first floor. This allows us to use 2x6 for a fully updated main floor and go up to 9 feet. We have concerns about the current insulation so this is a big 'plus' for us.

We also decided FOR the walk-in closet in our bedroom and moving the main floor bath to the outside of the house adjacent to the master ensuite.

Now for some changes we still are considering making:

1. Rearrange the ensuite as follows: (in a clockwise direction) Door will be moved to the far left of the ensuite, a 48" or 60" vanity next, with a toilet between the vanity and the outside wall. On the far wall (low right side of the layout) will be the large tub with a shower built to the left of it along the hallway side of the ensuite. This will call for some clever storage options but we feel like the layout will work better for us.

2. Add a transom window to our walk in closet.

3. Add 2 transom windows on either side of the chimney in the dining room area instead of the 1 tall window shown in the drawing.

4. Add one more basement window to the left side of the new basement west of the front porch.

Some help and advice please!

- We want to get rid of the existing wood fireplace insert on the main floor and not sure if we want to replace it with a gas model or not. The position is sort of awkward (in the dining room but not centered) but it would also be nice to have a fireplace on the main floor. We will be putting a gas fireplace in the basement (utilizing the existing masonry chimney flue). The existing brick chimney outside the house will be removed and rebuilt only as required. Will we miss the fireplace if we totally eliminate it from the first floor? We don't use it now due to it being wood-fired, but maybe a main floor gas fireplace is expected in a new 1800 ft^2 house these days?

- We are unsure about the wall dividing the living room and the entry. We like how the entrance hallway is it's own area and since the front door will be our main entrance, it will help to keep the cold air from going directly into the living room in the winter. It also helps to hide the entrance closet, shoes, and clutter that might be there. However, even though the living room is ~16' wide, we feel this wall "closes" in the living room as compared to the wider and more open dining room and kitchen area. A half wall is an option but that seems a bit dated too. Thoughts and opinios on some options here?

(Note: There will be A LOT of basement space and we will figure out how best to utilize it in the future. Likely it will include a storage area, a fitness area, and possibly another den/office.

Bump, does anyone have any thoughts or opinions?

In regards to the entry, leave the wall and use a transom (as I suggested some time ago). I think that will work with other transoms around the house and help eliminate the closed off feeling. Do you have a picture of the elevations? If you are not keeping the fireplace in the existing stack why can't you move it to the living room?

mnmamax3 - The chimney extends all the way to the basement where we will have a gas fireplace insert. I'm not sure how they would treat the portion on the outside of the foundation if the portion above the ground were not rebuilt/replaced? Added a quick drawing to explain how it is currently built.

Elevations attached but note: the kitchen windows (east elevation right side) we would like to be 1 piece window instead of 3 separate (but same width) and with the north elevation, I just quickly added the transom windows either side of the chimney but the size is not accurate.

We have installed two gas fireplaces. Framing and unit are in the house with a vent pipe to the outside (somewhere between 6-10" diameter). There can be nothing combustible within a certain space around that exterior vent (like 3' from roof or deck). If you are not using the existing fireplace on the main level is there some reason you cannot cover over that wall and place a gas unit where you would actually like it, presumably in the living room?

If you did move the fireplace, I might consider adding transoms along the new fireplace wall as you can not add transoms full width in the DR due to the chimney being utilized for the basement. It would seem weird to have flanking transoms if there was nothing there. :)

We've typically done a floor to ceiling fireplace with stone or ceramic surround and then a cabinet off to the side for tv.

We can certainly remove the dining room fireplace (and are leaning that way), but not sure if we want to have a gas fireplace upstairs. I think our main concern is we would then have the new fireplace taking up square footage (granted only about 10 square feet). Also if we were to build in a new fireplace in the living room, we are committing to that living room layout forever.

In regards to adding a transom to the living room/front entrance hallway wall, could you link me an example picture of that? Is an "interior" window still fashionable in today's houses? I see a lot of end-of-the-hallway transoms but not much along a room's wall.

Thanks for your help!

First a few pics of how I suspect your entryway will look as drawn. If you use enough lighting maybe it would be okay, but any front door light is going to be diminished by the porch. I don't recall your style preferences and don't have time now to reread. Essentially you need to match whatever style everything else is when choosing a window. Your elevations don't really provide a lot of character and that might be something to look at.

I threw in a few images that I think look dated but could just be that style. I think the last few are some really modern ways to bring in light (thought the full glass window might show too much clutter which you are trying to avoid. But maybe a half-wall with windows on top. Hope this helps you work through this... Maybe what you have is perfectly fine, I just know walls on paper are not nearly as imposing as walls in real life.

Don't know where you should go on the fireplace. Some people use them all the time, others don't. We never used to use ours when kids were little because I was afraid of burns. On our current house they did a poor job of cleaning off sheetrock debris that made the fireplace smell awful every time we turned it on, so we didn't use it for years until we figured that out and then used it much more frequently on those cold winter days. Our house is closer to 3900 sq ft and it is definitely expected in our neighborhood. I do know they have some more realistic looking wall fireplaces that might be a good solution for you.

@mnmamax3 - Thanks for your opinions and advice.

If you're completely rebuilding the first floor, then I would also work on fixing the back entry area, or do you never use your backyard? It seems so closed off and awkward to me right now with that step down. Can the door now move and be level with the house? Can those 3 steps be added to the existing stairs to the basement and still have a landing on top - assuming the door is moved. If the door could be moved so you can see from the front door through then you'd get more light in that middle area too. You'd have to add some steps from the backdoor into the yard or you could add a deck.

@lyfia - We have a deck built at the elevation of the current door. It would be awkward to add the steps to the door outside and we would have to re-work the basement stairs. That would also mean finding somewhere else for the rear door and the only place left would be from the kitchen which we don't want to do. I think the rear entrance will serve its purpose as a "mudroom" when us/family/friends are out in the backyard, getting home from outdoor activities with equipment, etc. Also in the elevation drawings you can see we are planning to add a sidelight and possibly transom to the rear door for extra light.

A few things: the fireplace where it is now is obviously not ideally located - so if you want to keep it and want a gas burning one, then I'd move it into the living room and integrate it into some built-ins along the outside wall. (no TV over it though - makes the TV too high. TV if needed there, can be off to one side). It doesn't, as mnmamax3 notes, need to be connected to the existing chimney - just needs a vent to the outside with adequate clearance. There are some quite lovely gas fireplaces these days, and they certainly do avoid the mess of a wood burning one (though I LOVE our airtight wood burning fireplace).

The other thing - I actually preferred the layout of the master bedroom that you had before. The walk-in closet takes up a lot of space and while you do get another "free" wall in the bedroom, it doesn't actually give you more or more efficient storage and makes your bedroom a lot smaller.

And - I'd add more windows - definitely one in the second bathroom, and possibly another set of windows in each of the bedrooms.

One other question: access to the back yard. I'm assuming that you don't barbeque and also don't anticipate or want an easy transition to your private outdoor space in the back yard? Which is fine, if this is your lifestyle and you plan on staying in this house for a very long time and aren't thinking about resale, but I do know that many people have knocked out walls and gone to great lengths to renovate houses built in the 40s and 50s that didn't provide the now expected easy access/transition to outdoor living spaces. I recognize that this would require a major rethink of the kitchen/access to basement, but I think it needs consideration if it hasn't already been thought about. I can pretty much guarantee that the transition you have currently to the outdoors won't be viewed as easy or convenient once food/drink is involved - carrying stuff around the corner and down steps and out a door may seem trivial on paper, but in reality...it's a big disincentive to go outside to eat! I say that having owned a variety of houses with varying ease of access. If this was my house, I'd probably blow out the back wall of the kitchen for sliders to a deck, and reconfigure the space.

I also still think the huge amount of main floor storage is a really bad use of "prime" real estate. Should be living space... rockybird was onto something with the reconfiguration he/she showed (moving hall over, LR gets bigger).

My wife and I discussed a lot last night and made a few more decisions.

Our thoughts after further discussion:
- We would like to remove the small closet behind the kitchen pantry and open up the stairway to the rear entrance landing. That in addition to a nice door with sidelight and maybe transom will help to open up the area and allow more light onto the main floor.

- As per the attached quick drawing, we want to open up the entry using some space from the hallway closets. The drawing on the right shows our idea. We would be left with a typical depth closet and a walk-in closet (that could be turned into main floor laundry later in life). We would get rid of the small closet facing the rear porch. We aren't sure what to do with the portion of the wall in blue? If we totally remove it, we lose a living room wall to put furniture and or side tables in front of. If we leave it, we are left with a hallway taking up valuable floor space. A half wall is an option but unsure how that would look and if it would fit the style of the interior or feel awkward ?

- The fireplace is gone and we will not be building a new one on the main floor. This is always an option to add later but we won't be building it into the new upstairs. We will leave it to the architects/contractors to figure out how to vent the basement fireplace/deal with the underground portion of the chimney.

- Master bedroom closet is going back to a wall-to-wall closet to free up more floor space in the bedroom. We will still have room for 2 dressers and the large ensuite can be used for dressing and getting ready in the morning (if one of us is still sleeping).

- We want to extend the front porch sideways, either all the way to the outside wall or to the outside of the 3rd window. We will leave this up to the architects to determine how the roof will end up and which option will look better as far as exterior styling goes.

Here's just a sample if you're willing to re-work the back door area of what you could do. No need to rebuild the deck. You could just add steps outside the back door. Then at some point when the deck needs some work you could raise it to be level with the door.

For the master closet you could do something like this and it is likely you won't even need two dressers. I built this for my daughters bedroom and it works so much better than the closet that was there with drywall and sliding doors. It is 120" wide x 96" tall with storage alone (not counting the trim surrounding it). Some have hanging space with shelves above, some are drawers on the bottom with shelves above and others have shoe pullouts on the bottom and hanging clothes above. It can all be changed around inside as she grows too. She has more storage than we do in our walk-in master closet due to the no wasted space that we have. She also has toy storage in that area. Next is me building something for our master closet.

How wide is your lot on the sides and what is the setbacks? I ask because all your windows are facing West and East which are about the worst direction to have them face. Since you're going down to the ground, I'm wondering if there is a way to completely reconfigure the house so you better utilize the south facing side of the house for the public spaces and for light. That would be best for passive solar heating/cooling.

I'm thinking it might be time to think outside the box of what you have now to what can be possible.

@cpartist: The lot is 100' wide by 440' deep and the lot is situated East/West. We have neighbors on either side with our driveway making up the remaining feet to the North and ~15' side yard (with utilities coming in from the street) to the South. Also the whole length of our yard along the South side has 75' red/white pines and spruce trees in a row. You can see the neighbors out both way though so we aren't keen on having windows on the sides of the house other than for light. We have 120' of front yard and the rest in the back.