The fridge wall backs to the labeled dining room. We are extending that wall a bit. The wall oven wall backs to the stairway. The island is 4 x 8. It will have the sink, dishwasher to the left and trash pullout to the right.

I would have a hard time with this layout ... so few drawers. You said you needed storage, but this plan doesn't really give much storage.

Plus you said you cook a lot but you have almost no prep space. You're turning the family room into the dining room which will be huge but you have what is a very small kitchen. If you cook that much why not make the kitchen a little larger?

Your plan looks awkward and disproportionate to the rest of the house. Why not just embrace your room switcheroo and go big; officially turn the front room into an office/flex space and turn the whole back of the house into a great room with a logical, proportionate layout like so.

It's a much more modern layout. Also, if you're going to invest in an entirely new kitchen why not go the whole way and move another wall or two?

well, we only have so much money! A 4x8 island isn"t enough prep space? You should see what I have now! There will be a drop zone to the left of the doorway where the pantry is. (into the family room)...24 inch base with counter and upper cabinet too. That will be 3 drawers.

benjesbride, the room you made the kitchen is much smaller than the actual kitchen.

Yes, it is small, but it what I have.

Benjesbride made the office space smaller to create the space for a kitchen with long, uninterrupted walls to facilitate counter space in the kitchen. I do not think her idea means a smaller space for the kitchen. It would mean tearing out and rebuilding a wall and some ceiling repair...a contractor said to me that moving walls is “cost efficient” when remodeling.

I do thank you for the input. That exact layout is in fact my neighbor's house! We have the same model but that is how their interior was built. I also have another neighbor with our same floor plan who took out the wall as we will, and it really does look amazing. They left the L shape for the island, but I don't love the look of that.

I live in a high cost of living area, and doing all you propose would cost 150.000 plus, easy. We just purchased the house in July, so we are limited to what we can spend. There would never be enough value added to recoup. We plan to be in the house 4-8 years, so would be throwing most of that away.

sure, doing all that would be best case, but it's just not realistic.

You can save on things like cabinets by using Ikea which is one of the major expenses.

Why are you renovating? Unless one is very experienced/knowledgable with kitchens it's often best to wait until you've used the kitchen for at least a year before making expensive changes.

The kitchen you're planning doesn't look like much of an improvement from what you presently have. Maybe you could add some rev a shelf products to make your existing storage more efficient. http://www.rev-a-shelf.com/

Before assuming the kitchen-dining-living across the back of the house is too expensive, it would be wise to get some bids to see exactly how much more it would cost. It would be a much better arrangement than what you're planning.

We are renovating mainly to take down that wall. The kitchen is boxed in in the middle of the house. There is a major pinch point at the corner of the peninsula/refrigerator/pantry. It is 30 inches! And the only way through the kitchen. The cabinets are 30 years old and have huge stiles in them making most space unusable.

I know what the bid is to do the current work, so I'm pretty confident on pricing.

Maybe I need to lose the wall oven microwave combo and just do a double oven range with micro above. I really need good venting though.

I want to enjoy the new kitchen so I don't want to wait when we know it's not a forever house. I have renovated two kitchens previously, but not footprint changes.

I actually don't like fully open concept. I only want the one wall down.

So here is an idea that just makes an adjustment to your plan: Switch the sink/DW with the range. Here's why:

You need kitchen wall cabinets near your dishwasher./sink when you empty the DW. In addition, when I'm cooking I like to socialize with my guests (and they can even help) while I also keep them on the OTHER side of the island.

The last 4 kitchens I've done the stove has been in the island/peninsula with seating on the other side and it works great (kinda like gathering around the campfire).

Attached is a picture of your space with questions on it about walls and dimensions. I would love to give look at creating some rearrangements if you could provide the information.

I would shift the whole kitchen toward the outside wall and create a pantry along the side of the staircase. You need storage and there seems to be a lot of dead space between the outer window and the kitchen. If you're ditching the family room wall anyway, you could easily rearrange the kitchen and make yourself a pantry and get a lot more function.

I don't like fully open concept either. I'm suggesting kitchen open to dining room with french doors from dining to living. (With the kitchen on the far left.) I'll try to sketch something tonight.

Yes, we swapped rooms for our purposes.

1) yes will be removed

2) we are extending this wall towards bay window to extend cabinet run

3) pantry is being removed

4)yes, removed

5). This whole wall is coming down

doorway into kitchen will remain the same, the casing and header will be removed.

Length of red line is 18 1/2 feet, blue one is 13 ft.

Thanks! =) What about a U-shape? The 3-D is the view from standing in front of the bay window.

wow! Thank you, that is really interesting. We hadn't thought of that layout. I will ponder....

Can you change the walls by the stairs? close up the door way into the kitchen and open the wall into the family room - you would just have to go another step or 2 and around the corner. That would maybe get the sink off the island so you would have a major piece of countertop to work on..

damiarian, I think your idea gives me the most storage options (which I said I wanted) and is a very logical layout, but I just don't get my giant hgtv island that way! ; ) I may come back to that though

Debbi, for some reason that wall off the laundry shows closed on the layout, but it is open...for now. We are also going to be pushing the laundry room out 2 feet into the family room. That black box with the x is the chimney in the garage, but it is even with the fireplace, so we have room for moving the laundry. When we close that opening it will become a mudroom nook off the laundry.

The area you have highlighted is a vent stack that is unable to be moved (reasonably within our budget), unfortunately. Our neighbors who renovated still have this wall and it really looks just fine and not weird!

Jake The Wonderdog, for me, the sink in the island is the lesser of 2 evils.

Cindy, yes I will. The plan is to use the laundry as the overflow storage, and maybe even for my extra appliances. We are going to be adding cabinetry in there behind the door. I really wish I had room for a good pantry.

I like the U option, but if you can use the bottom wall of (new) DR for storage here's and idea with an island.

I'm not sure about the depth of the island. If you have enough room for the dining table in front of the fire place and b/w the island and the table (close to 5 feet maybe?) and long arms you can go with a depth close to 5,5'.

"...a family of 5 and I do a lot of cooking..."

That tells me you need a Kitchen with plenty of counterspace - where it's needed -- and you need to accommodate multiple cooks. (I assume you will be teaching your children the very necessary life skills of cooking and cleaning up...which means they will be help you.)

Of the designs I see above, I think Debbi's is the closest to giving you the needed counterspace plus storage where it's needed.

(You have the right idea, btw -- keep the range off the island, especially if you want seating at the island!)

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I noticed you have pushed back on the majority of suggestions to make the space more functional for your stated needs and you have commented on how other Kitchens look (not how they actually function), so I think we need to ask:

What is more important to you, function or looks?

There is no right or wrong answer, only what's right for you and your family. Most of us on the Kitchens Forum that work on designs are function first. It's easy to make a functional Kitchen look nice; it's difficult, if not impossible, to make a nice looking but dysfunctional Kitchen functional without tearing it out and starting over.

"...We have flipped the family and dining rooms for our purposes. We use the formal living room as an office.

...We are removing the wall between the kitchen and family room (which we use as dining...our kitchen table is in there)"

So, you have a small Family Room on the far left and a large Dining Room on the far right, correct? Does that include a fireplace in the Dining Room?

I noticed you have hand-written "Dining Room" on the plan in the original DR, are you planning to switch the rooms back to Dining Room - Kitchen - Family Room? I know that arrangement would be much more appealing if you are selling. A larger Family Room with a fireplace would be so much nicer!

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"We plan to be in the house 4-8 years, so would be throwing most of that away."

I don't know if it's worth doing anything if you're going to be living there for such a short period of time and are concerned about recovering the cost of your renovations when you sell.

Be careful where you put your cleanup sink -- you need plenty of dish storage where it's out of the way of the Prep and Cooking Zones -- something that's usually an issue with cleanup (or sole) sinks in an island or peninsula.

One thought -- is there an IKEA near you? If so, consider IKEA cabinets, especially if you can assemble them yourselves -- they're ready-to-assemble (RTA), not fully assembled. You can save literally thousands of dollars.

sena01, the big deep island is on the wish list. You set it up like we have been picturing, with the exception of also having cabinets on the front wall backing to the steps. I think it is big enough. we have 44 inch clearances. We were going to put a built in hutch with sink along the laundry room wall in the dining room, but the cost was too much. We may just a get a piece of furniture instead. I see you put a closet/pantry there, but I need that space for the laundry room.

I think I will be giving up the wall oven. I will go with a slide in double oven range with a built in microwave. If I shrink the pantry to 27" and the micro is 27" with all drawers underneath ,I will gain more counter and dish storage.

buehl, I think I need that big island! I do not want dysfunctional, so I am trying to keep an open mind. The kitchen is so bad right now, it certainly can't get more dysfunctional. It feels like anything we do will be a major improvement.

Yes, that is the room placement we like. It is simply a matter of furniture and a light fixture so when we sell, it can go back to be more traditional.

This house is one of the smallest floor plans in the neighborhood. These houses are 30 years old and are starting to turn over and be remodeled by the new (younger) owners. I think to compete in the future these improvements are needed. I need a wow factor kitchen. I have lived in the neighborhood for 4 years and I have only seen 1 or 2 truly modern designs. We did buy it under market because of the closed off design and other reasons. we know we won"t get all the cost back, but we want to enjoy it too.

I love Ikea! We are doing the laundry and basement in Ikea. But not the kitchen. Frivolous? Maybe..

Is this any better?

I took out the wall oven to gain counter. The range will be a double. We flipped the dishwasher to the right of the sink, trash to left. Silverware and dishes will go in drawers and cabinets near microwave. My big concern now is the assymetry around the range. My large pantry is now 33 inches, maybe I could lose the 12 inch cab next to the fridge? Contractor wants 3 inches on either side of hood, rather than butt to cabinets.

The clearances are 48 inches all around. island is 52 inches with overhang on short side, 84 inches on long. There is also storage in island 15 inch deep by 27 wide cabinets times 3.

Well you gained counters, but not in the right spot. Where do you stand to prep? That is where you need the counter. I prefer to do mine next to the sink. That is where you need space. I assume you will have helpers in the kitchen too. Then you need two spots near the sink that have adequate counter space.

Keep the oven. The counter space is not really needed there and won't really be used.

How about adding a counter/DW/clean-up sink along the bay window area and just have a smaller prep sink in the island. Then you end up with the possibility of 3 different prep zones and you can put the prep sink in the island off to the side a bit and have a longer stretch of counter. The other not as ideal prep areas would be on each side of the clean-up sink. If the window is lower there, it is no big deal to replace with a smaller window and then do a wainscot below it so you don't even need to worry about it matching any siding.

I agree with lyfia, you need more counter next to a water source.

I see you put a closet/pantry there, but I need that space for the laundry room.

I'm not sure about the dimensions of the area but wouldn't be better to move the pantry next to the half bath?

Something like this.

as drawn, I have a 24 inch dishwasher next to sink on right side (plus 1 1/2 inch overhang), and 21 inch base on left (plus 12 inch overhang). I will prep on island, yes. So make the island bigger, maybe? I have some room to do that. I could shrink my sink 2 inches. It's a 32 right now in a 33 base. I must have wrote the length wrong, it should be 91 inches or so. I'll check on that.

What I like out on my counters is a coffee maker, stand mixer, pressure cooker and toaster oven. I use these daily and I do need room for them.

sena01, that area can"t be a closet. I houses a vent stack that isn"t moving. I am putting a cabinet there on that wall, kitchen side, a 27 inch wide 21 inch deep base with counter and upper for my drop zone.

I think we are going to shift that whole range wall down 3 more inches to gain symmetry and keep the 12 inch pantry on the end.

Thanks! I see now I need to get a large enough prep area on that island.

So, here is some work I did. I now have 34 inches on right side of the sink, and 28 on the left. That may go up if I increase the overhang. I may have to lose that 9 inch cab and make it a 6. It is just for cutting boards ( thin ones).

I fixed the symmetry by the range.

Now my sink is not perfectly center, but it doesn't seem too big a deal. I also swung around a drawer base to the side, it 18 inch wide by 24 drawers. I can use those for sure, but again not balanced to the eye. What do you think?

Do you have a 2D layout? I think the thing I'm having trouble envisioning is that the fridge, range, and dishwasher all open into the same stretch of kitchen, which is also the primary area you will be standing. It feels kind of packed in (especially if the DW and stove/range face each other).. like maybe you could swap the fridge and the tall pantry, and put the DW on the other side of the sink? Just thinking 'out loud'...

Yes, it is a lot going on there. I moved the clearance to 50 inches and I can go more if needed. I have quite a bit of room to push that way.

i have gone back and forth with the swapping. And the dishwasher; doesn't matter to me which side it is on.

Where will you prep? You don't have enough room next to the sink yet you have that long area of counter to the right of your pantry.

I know that because your island setup is what i had in my old condo. I had to wash my food, then carry it across to the cooktop to prep.

You have wasted space to the right of your pantry area that could be better utilized. I'm sorry, but you can do better.

I will prep next to the sink. Today I have 39 inches in the bad kitchen. it is the only place I ever prep and it is more than enough. How many inches of prep space do you think I need? I thought nkba minimum was 30 inches? to the right of the pantry will hold the toaster oven and pressure cooker. Yes, out on the counter gasp! and the stand mixer goes in the corner area.

I only have to turn around to get food to the stove, maybe a step.

Can you try 15" cabs/pantry on the stair wall?

Below I have 27" hutch-fridge-27" drawers-range-18" drawers-3" filler-15" void corner.

Today I have 39 inches in the bad kitchen. it is the only place I ever prep and it is more than enough. How many inches of prep space do you think I need? I thought nkba minimum was 30 inches?

39" is still not 33" which is what you'll have in the new layout. Yes 30" is minimum but if you have the space to make it better than minimum why are you so resistant to doing so?

to the right of the pantry will hold the toaster oven and pressure cooker.

Nothing wrong with having appliances out on the counter.

So every single time you use the toaster, you then have to walk across the kitchen to get the butter and jam out of the fridge and where will your butter knives be? More walking to get them? Then it's walking to the sink to drop them in the sink or put them in the DW. Frankly it sounds like the very inefficient kitchen we're in right now.

There is a reason why Ice, Water, Stone, Fire works and it's because of its efficiency of movements. Not having to constantly move back and forth to grab things that are not within reach.

I personally do not love cooking, but I do know that when I work in an efficient kitchen where all the spaces are well utilized, I dislike it less than when I'm in a kitchen where there's no sense of order.

sena01, I like your layout, the dish hutch is really nice! But I dislike shallow base cabs in a kitchen. I have seen it a few times when I go to open houses and they look weird to me like something is wrong. I think it would hurt me at resale in this area. With 24 inch bases, I would love your plan.

Also, giving up a whole wall of 24 inch base storage just to gain the 10 inches of counter (when I have 34 1/2' there) seems a strange trade off to me.

I am really not trying to be difficult, but I don't see the huge issue with the prep space. What I see is space right of the sink to wash and cut veggies, and then I turn around and cook on the stove. If the area right of the sink is full, I move left to the 28 inches there (or someone could be making a sandwich there). If those are both full, I move back right around the corner and have 55 inches to lay out cookie sheets or pans, whatever. If all that is full, I move over to the stove, on the left is where my baking supplies and mixer are. AND I still have right of the stove to use if I need!

cpartist, the easiest thing for me to do is move the toaster by the fridge, right? I have planned to put the silverware either in the island in the drawers on the side or under the microwave. But I could put it on the stove side as well. There are several options.

The small pantry next to the fridge will hold the current open foods, bread, snacks etc. the larger one for canned and dry goods and bulk storage.

I do appreciate your pointing out the walk from toaster to fridge, and the steps to perform that task. That is good info to take into consideration.

I feel like I do have ice, water, stone, fire. All right there within a few steps. Except when I make toast ; ).

I'm trying, but I just don't see what you see.

Technically you do have the ice/water/stone/fire but the problem is you have lots of stone space where it's not needed as much and not enough stone space where it's most needed which is right by the water source.

I like the plan.... just not so sure about the ref. It is not shown in your plan at the appropriate depth unless you are buying a subzero... the panel on the left is too small and the sideways pantry on the right is too small as well. I also think I would switch the ref and the pantry.... and have the dishwasher on the left of the sink - if you open it - it will block 30" of the space in front of the stove... I think you are almost there!!