you can plant whatever you want.. where ever you want ... to accomplish whatever goal you have ...

its your goal.. your vision.. your property ... why would you care what anyone else says???

but most of our conversations involve peeps with landscaping goals ... that are contrary to your goal ...

all the power to each persons goal ....

also .. air circulation might be different in ma nature.. rather than suburbia ... problems usually occur when peeps force their own aesthetic on any given situation .. and keep in mind... self sown or forestry planted situations ... a certain percent of plant most likely fail ... but you dont see those.. decades later .. also.. if all planted are the same age.. they cope with the situation ...

but in landscaping.. when you add new plants to older scapes.. you are creating potential future problems ... like air circulation .. e.g.

i like doing stream of consciousness on your posts ... just to keep you thinking and refining your ideas.. future potential theory ....

ken

The biggest reason it is recommended to space them farther apart is for aesthetic purposes, as well as health. Aesthetically, if they are too close together, the foliage will brown and die off, reducing the tree's individual beauty. Old wood will, in most cases, not sprout new growth (there are exceptions). Also, planting farther apart let's you see the whole tree. Health-wise, it reduces risk of fungal outbreaks and if you have a pest or disease outbreak, it reduces/slows the rate of transmission/spread. Hope this info helps clarify.

Ok for health wise, how come wild conifers stay so healthy even when they are so close to each other. This is what I'm confused about. People say for the health of the tree it needs space but then look at wild trees

I have never toured the "wild" forests of Japan but in coniferous forests here, while the trees may be closley spaced, they are skinny and very bare for a significant trunk length before producing branches with foliage. This is a look few homeowners want to cultivate in their own gardens so proper spacing is given far more consideration. And those crowded trees may not be nearly as healthy as you think. Shading from more aggressive or earlier growing companions will cause significant die off of foliage on lower branches. And any pathogens that may be present will be much more readily transferred to neighboring trees. Not all wild forests are necessarily healthy forests!!

Thanks everyone. So I want an example. If I want a cryptomeria radicans and a tsuga diversifolia planted next to each other, I should space them accordingly in that both their branches should never ever grow to touch each other?

What do you mean eat, like the cryptomeria will overgrow into the tsuga or the cryptomeria stealing all the water from the tsuga? They both have similar mature heights and widths

Do they have a similar rate of growth?

East / west line or north / south? If the faster growing one is to the south (in the northern hemisphere) it will really shade the other one.

Not sure on the growth rate. There seems to be very little information about tsuga diversifolia other than most sites stating 'slow growth rate' . Conifer society states more than 12 inches a year but that doesn't sound like a slow growth rate. I have 2 seedlings in pots and they certainly did not grow more than a foot this year.

I plan on growing all my conifers in south or western exposure. But don't tsugas like shade?

When pines are planted too close together they fight each other for food, water, and sunlight. The bigger they get the more space between then they need. If you look at a pine plantation where the trees are not thinned you will see the forest floor criss-crossed with those trees that lost the battle for survival. This format holds for all trees. I generally separate my trees from between 18-45' depending on circumstances, goals, and tree species.

Here's an area with Cryptomerias (Jin Dai) planted to the south of a weeping eastern Hemlock. (Sargeants or Pendula). the Cryptomerias need pruning ............again! I'm going to 'antique' em' some more.

Pond Cypress planting @ Longwood Gardens PA. These plants look fine to me.

Some in your upper shot in particular are very thin ("beanpoles"), due to the crowding - if the planting was more extensive and in a wild or plantation setting I would call it a stick-wood.

And notice how in the bottom picture a few of the redwoods - particularly the one at the front, which may be outside of the grouping - have more impressive spreading bases. It's possible most of them would have these now, if they weren't so close together. They certainly aren't all going to be able to reach full development in that same space.

So then what happens over time in both instances is that most of them are cut down, either before or after failing on their own - as the small percentage that did well enough to prevail become the long term feature. In the meantime all are deformed by the circumstances, for many years.

Those trees that survive the battle make good lumber.

Here you go Heruga, another pic of the Pond Cypress, same as my earlier pic, this one was taken today.

Yea they look very healthy but apparently forest trees being so close to each other are loaded with pathogens and fungus? So I went to the US national arboretums yesterday and saw and walked through a row of gigantic cryptomeria Yoshinos with alot of understory Japanese plants. So that means I walked in an area full of pathogens and fungus?? They were at least 80 ft tall which indicates very good health in the tree considering that it's not even planted in its native range. So If grouping of trees are really ok to do I would like to make my front yard a conifer forest like this except all different species conifers. Would that be possible or is this happening because they are all cryptomerias?

Another thing to consider, is two or three same type conifers planted together, with sufficient room around them, can cause positive competition that enhances upward growth.

These two spruce, not even six feet apart, in a small town near my area. started out as a threesome but many years ago lost one to a storm. Beautiful specimens keeping one another company.

I guess what it comes down to is that if you want that forest look, with trees of varying sizes and diameters, not caring about bottom limbs being shaded out, go for it. If that's what you want and that is what you like, go ahead. I think the biggest thing is most people that comment on the forums have difficulty envisioning and wanting that in their front yard, myself included. That's not to say that one vision is right and another wrong. It is your garden, you need to do what is pleasing to you. Arming yourself with the knowledge and views shared, and knowing that the tree's in future may not all be in optimal health or succeed equally well, go ahead. Enjoy what you have created as long as you can!

It's a matter of scale. Small yards don't lend themselves to big forests. A dwarf one would work though. Medium sized yard, medium scale. Paying attention to scale is usually not considered in planning a garden. Scale unifies, and greatly enhances any plan. Simplifies it too.

I would love that forest look in my front yard. The lack of lower branches looks very attracting to me. I like conifers that are bare maybe in their first 1/3 of its trunk. If you say it wouldn't be in optimal health then how would you explain all those gigantic cryptomerias that I just posted a pic of? They certainly did live long enough to get that big, and outside of its native range. And thats the first time I've ever seen a cryptomeria that big outside of Japan.. So they were definitely healthy enough this whole time to grow that big.

I would need like a 70ftx60 ft front yard to fit all my 8 favorite conifers. Thankfully I didn't choose more than 8

If you notice in your pic of cryptomeria, some have larger trunks, some have much thinner trunks. They all appear to be a similar height, so I am assuming they were all planted at the same time. This would be greatly due to their crowded planting situation. I make an educated guess that the skinnier trees are struggling a bit, not as healthy and strong as their lefties neighbours. They make not look sick, but would be more frail as compared to their larger girth neighbours. In the event of a disease pathogen or harmful insect outbreak, the skinnier trees would sicken, weaken more and did sooner than their counterparts. That's about as clear as I can make it.

Yes, they were all planted at the same time. They're not all Cryptomerias. Some are Chamaecyparis obtusa 'Nana Aurea" . (Dwarf Gold Hinoki) Most have been pruned hard. Some real hard over many years and topped, but pruned not to look like it. None are irrigated. We have dry summers.

Yes Mike, yours look great with the variety of colour and texture, and look healthy too. My comments have been directed to hopefully help OP understand why it is not usually recommended to space them too closely. Their pic of cryptomeria they believed they were all in optimal health, I was merely trying to inform them why that may not be the case.

I remember reading many of your posts and seeing photos of your gardens on here a number of years ago, Mike, along with the likes of Will, Dan, Dave, Dax, later Garen and even Ken! (Anyone I missed on that list was not intentional). These are the gardens I always remember as being a treat! I learned a lot about many different cultivars, textures and layers. My own designs have become much richer in part from the knowledge shared here!

I see now.

I have about an acre that was planted to Weyerhauser 'Super firs' just before I purchased it 30 yrs ago. It's already losing some trees even after I thinned it pretty good about 20 yrs ago. It's a perfect example of what has been said. I'll have to get a picture tomorrow in the predicted rain. It's 1:51 am now. (I just got up for a few hours)

As long as the tree lives as much as I do then I'm fine with it, healthy or not. But I don't think I completely understand the concept of 'proper spacing'. How much of a gap do you need between 2 mature large trees for the optimal health of the tree? So the branches between 2 trees should absolutely never touch each other? I need an example.. so if you were to plant a Cryptomeria japonica 'radicans' and a picea abies next to each other, how many feet apart would you plant those 2 assuming you want nice healthy trees for long term?

My number one goal (as stated in my very first post) is to have “dense conifer forest in 40 years”. Ive only been planting 4.5 years but already Ive had to move trees that were planted waaaaay too close. In 40 years it is quite possible that I do not have a single conifer that is not touching another one. Ive got just 2 acres, and it is truly planted out, mostly with larger basic conifers. Lots of basic Colorados, Norways, and Eastern White pines. My neighbor 2 houses up has about a 0.5 acre patch of Eastern White pines. The trees are close together (7-10 feet on average, some closer) like many of the photos posted. I believe most were planted in the 50s or 60s but there are also plenty of smaller (varying sizes) throught from the seeds of cones. Its nice to go back there and be surrounded by tall pine trees. The strand is shown in the background of the pic. The left side is largely blocked by a deciduous tree. In the front is P. Pungens Baby Blue Eyes.

So you have the same goal as me then. Except mine would be 60 years lol. I actually made kind of an architectural scale for my front yard and it seems like my 8 conifers would actually fit in a 70ftx60ft yard without touching each others branches but only assuming that I got the growth rate correct on them. All large trees except for my 2 cephalotaxus harringtonias which would be an understory plant from my cryptomeria and hinoki. And then a groundcover juniperus sargentii all the way in the front where it would not be shaded out by the other trees.

Heruga, simplest way to figure out proper spacing is to find the 10yr size which is what most sites give. Obviously though if you find a listing for a tree that says 70'h x 30'w, you know they are referring to mature size, not 10yr! So when you fknd the 10yr size, if, for example you were looking at a tree that was listed as 8 x 4 at 10yrs, you would take the 4 and multiply by however many decades you are thinking, in your case 6. 4x6=24. Say the tree you wanted next to it was 10x5 @ 10 yrs. 5x6=30

Now add your 2 diameters together... 24+30=54. Divide by 2. 54÷2=27. Therefore your absolute minimum distance between these trees in this scenario would be 27 or 28feet. This is the formula I use, at least. Others with more experience may figure spacing out differently. Once you know the basic formula, you can adapt it somewhat to your needs. Myself, when I am using trees in beds, I usually work off of a 20yr game plan.

This is about representative of my tree spacing. Id guess about 75% of my conifers are large, 18% mid sized, and 7% dwarf. Check out my tri-trunked Vanderwolf pyramidal pine at the bottom of first pic. About 3 years ago a deer snapped the main trunk to the ground. About 3 weeks ago the Canaan Fir (top pic, right side towards top, leader in sunlight) got its mid section toootally thrashed by deer(its now got 4 feet of nothing but trunk in the middle section of the tree). Add another to “the weirder the better” club,

The thing is most sites don't even state a 10 year size. It just says x amount of ft at maturity which doesn't really indicate anything. You can almost call it a useless info. For example Missouri Botanical garden site says 20-30 ft wide for cryptomeria japonica Yoshino. Does that mean in 10 years? 20 years? Maximum height until tree dies? It doesn't state any of that. So useless. This is why I ask you guys who actually have experience growing these conifers and actually know how fast it grows. I go for the 50 year mark so it's hard to tell how wide a tree will get in that long since no one has that kind of info.

Wow you must have some very hungry deer. I didn't know they go for firs or pines..

We are lucky in that we do not have an issue with deer coming in our yard. However, we have an abundance of rabbits. Found out to my surprise they apparently love picea omorika!

In regards to size, if you can't find 10yr sizes, if you use the mature size (which I would guess is likely a 30yr est) it at least gives you something to work off of. I haven't tried any cryptomeria cultivars myself yet as I have been told by my friend Darren of Whistling Gardens (If you are not familiar with WG, Google it. Great place doing amazing things!) that my chances of success with It in my area would be almost nil, however I may get brave or stupid someday!

For the most part deer dont eat my conifers (exceptions of course, like the emerald green arborvitae in my pic 6 posts up - that “hourglass figure” is bc of deer). What the deer do is thrash 1-4 conifers every late november/early December when they rub their antlers on trees(go into their “rut”) and unfortunately they pick out my planted conifers, not the native deciduous junk trees to do this on. They usually do it early evening after the sun goes down. I caught a/the deer nearly in the act this year and had him frozen in my headlamp(conifers had been thrashed 1-2 days earlier, i was out back early one night in the same spot, turned my head and there he was). Thing is I dont hunt and I wasnt about to mess with a deer with a good sized rack. In addition to a 15 foot Canaan Fir that now has 4 feet of blank trunk in the mid region, I also had a 4 foot Norway spruce snapped in half, a Techney arborvitae thrashed real good, and a juniper get half its bark rubbed off over two foot region(lots of broken branches as well). Rabbits will eat conifers as well and in particular enjoy my smaller Serbian spruces. The bottoms of my small 2-3.5’ Serbian spruces (where the branches should be the longest) have mostly been nibbled down and Im pretty sure by rabbits.

Here's another example of conifers growing close to each other, in this case the natural setting of Watermelon Creek, Tatnall County, GA.

The natural setting is "often imitated but seldom duplicated". It takes a talented designer with a critical eye to duplicate Mother Nature.