I agree entirely that consistency and keeping your word are a must. I did the same thing with my daughter when she had a tantrum. Left the store immediately and once we were alone made it clear to her that that was unacceptable. I think a large majority of parents today really don’t understand why it’s so important to have rules and be consistent about following them; that this is what prepares them for real life.

ON the flip side a bit, the other day I was leaving a place of business at the same time another woman and her daughter were. She was not the most patient person with the little girl in the office, but was even worse when they left. She was just under 6 ft and was literally dragging the little 3 year old screaming at her to hurry up. When the child couldn’t keep her balance, the mother told her to quit falling and walk right, then she spanked her when they got to the car and screamed at her to get in. The child wasn’t misbehaving at all, the mother was just an abusive *itch. It was pretty upsetting to see.

Because if she had reached in and grabbed him by the arm it would have been caught on an iphone and then shared and then someone would have complained to the authorities and she would have had a visit from the Child Services. That's why she asked him 15 times so that she wouldn't wind up with a visit from Child Services.

Should the above mother have spanked her child of course not but you also have no idea what the rest of her day had been like or was going to be like. Maybe she just lost her job or her husband left her or her mother/father were admitted to the hospital or all three. Perhaps she had been up all night with another sick child. Should she have spanked her child of course not - but I'm sure glad you all were such perfect parents with perfect children..

I absolutely detest this kind of thread. I was not a perfect parent and my kids were not perfect either.

Rita I mailed you back

Physical abuse.....there would need to be more than a bum spanking for them to get involve

Lukkiirish, I've seen children being treated this way. I grit my teeth. But I've been known to open my mouth. I watched a mother put her tot around 2 in the back seat of a car once no car seat no seat belt nothing than she got in and buckled up. Her window was down so I ask her if she forgot something. She looked at me confused...how bout putting the child in the car seat or is her life less important than yours. I got a ear full of filth.

When our DD was born we decided it would be like training a puppy- be consistent, be fair, have consequences and never make a threat you don't intend to make good on if necessary. Be the alpha person.

When she was about 3, she had a tantrum in the small local grocery while we were shopping. I took her straight out and put her in her car seat and continued shopping- the car was literally right outside the door of the store and I kept looking out to see how she was doing. After just a few minutes she had calmed down enough for me to bring her in and insist she apologise to the storekeepers for making such a fuss. She never did it again.

"Please" and "thank you" were non negotiable, as were other good manners.

She was also warned when she tried to misbehave that she would be taken outside and if that happened, she would not enjoy the experience, because she would be feeling my hand on her butt.

While we made it clear that ultimately our family was not a democracy, we would listen to her opinions and requests and consider them in coming to a decision.

At the same time, we were the parents who let her have sleepovers with her friends (quiet nights were ensured with the words, "If I have to come in and ask you to be quiet, we will NOT have waffles for breakfast tomorrow" :-) ); volunteered to help with class activities; brought her bus friends home for a hot shower, tomato soup and grilled cheese sandwiches when the school sports day was rained out; took two carloads of her classmates to the movies when a school disco was cancelled at the last minute...

You have to work at parenting but it's the only thing that results in really successful adults. Isn't that what you owe your kids- a successful life?

Parents must be willing to be inconvienced and do what you say your going to do. (Mamapinky)

Can I like this a million times please? (Rita)

Seconded another million times. The single most important lesson for a parent/child to get through their heads.

I’m not surprised Mamapinky. I didn’t speak up, maybe I should have, but I was working and the neighborhood wasn’t the greatest. I think about that little girl all the time now though.

My paternal grandmother had seven children and no help. She was very good about using distraction with a child up to age two or three. After that...one look said it all. I often see a *tired* child misbehaving. (Not the child's fault.)

Kids are like dogs when it comes to "training"- if a command or correction is said over and over again, the trainee learns that the first X times don't matter and can be ignored.

I always whispered my request in my children’s ear. Then I whispered, “That was my nice way of asking, if you don’t want to do what I asked, I can show you my not so nice way of asking” it worked.

Lukki, that would haunt me too.

If you would have decided to intervene, here's a couple suggestions to diffuse the situation:

Withhold judgement and collect yourself as you approach the mother and say in a warm, friendly and concerned tone, "I don't mean to get in your business, but I noticed that your little girl is having a bad day. Can I help?" Or "I remember when my children were that age. They can be a handful. Do you need any help?" If you bring a genuine care and desire out of love and respect, people will get that.

If not, at least you tried.

Of course, if you see a child in imminent danger, you can make an anonymous call to the police.

My children (29&26) still tell me about that tender place on the inside of upper arm.

I would take their arm and firmly say "come with me now:. There was no resistance. I carried the big paint stick in my purse too. Oh my!

PS: My grandson at 15 months knows what "no" means and will stop. They can be molded.

Sanctamommies...UGH

Speaking of the threat you won't follow through on... I did that as a early/young mother once and quickly wanted to back pedal. I told the boy that I had been rash and I really wasn't going to do/not do what I said. I restated the demand (if I say, Mike it's time for you to pick up your toys, let's face it, it's a demand. If I say Mike, do you want to pick up your toys now? It's a request), and changed what I was going to do if he didn't. eta: and never did it again. Back to the thread: I found out a bit later, it was even more effective to say, when you pick up your toys, then we can watch the movie, or go play soccer, whatever the incentive was, rather than a threat, it was far more effective. When he got even older, I had to say, it's time to do it. And nothing. Last, he had to do it, reminding himself, or he paid the price, don't do your homework and your GPA will fall. I'm just glad I'm done now. Almost. If he doesn't get those university applications done, well, I don't know what I'll do. Yet.

rob, you have my sympathies on the uni applications. We are in the midst of round two (out of four) over here. Yuk.

>> My grandson at 15 months knows what "no" means and will stop.<<

DD's first word was "no" :-D

When DD was about 3 we travelled across the country and stayed with friends who had a 2 year old. The friends' little boy was playing with his Dad's sunglasses, and I gently took them away, saying, "Thank you," with a smile. The Dad said, "Oh, it's OK, they're "Indescratchables"." I replied, "Yes, but he can't tell the difference between your "Indescratchables" and my prescription lenses." "Good point," conceded our friend.

I always found that it wasn't a good idea to let DD do things that were OK in one circumstance, but not OK in a difference circumstance, until she was really old enough to discriminate correctly between the two situations. For instance, we had a wood fired heater/stove for winter. Of course, when it wasn't burning, it was perfectly safe for DD to touch. But when she was too little to tell if it was burning or not, she wasn't allowed to touch it, ever.

I certainly hope we have not gone sooo far off the deep end that a parent can't reach in and grab a child by the upper arm and march them out.

Oh my God!!! These days I would be in jail! I remember telling my boys, "If you touch that again I will break your arm!" Was I a rotten Mommy? Just ask my kids, they say they don't remember ever being spanked ( oh they certainly were). All 4 think I was the greatest Mom in the world. And I had THE LOOK! That would stop them on a dime! Were they perfect, NO, was I perfect, NO. But I raised the best darn kids in the world and they are wonderful parents to their children and I am so proud of them all!

When my eldest was a toddler, around 2000/2001, we were on the sidewalk infant of a department store at a big shopping center. My son took a step or two or three at a running toddler pace off the curb. I grabbed him quickly and proceeded to scold him sternly. I was terrified see him do such a thing. A woman came over and told me off for yelling at my son. I was absolutely gobsmacked. You would have thought I had spanked him or yelled profanities at him for the way this woman took me to task. I actually felt bad about that interaction for a while, thinking maybe I should have been more gentle with my little one. Then I saw the same sort of thing happen with another mother and realized- of course a mother can scold her child for running into a busy street!

The danger involved Rita required you to speak loudly and firmly to your son. This is an important way that children learn **danger** .is involved. A quick and loud response was exactly what was needed and you knew that. Good Job.

Every child needs to say NO to be able to *choose* between YES or NO later. The NO stage is normal around age two. I'd rather deal with it in early childhood than later. I'd rather understand that an individual needs to assert himself than raise a child who can't self-direct as an adolescent or adult.

Thank you, Mamapinky :-)

i agree with most of what everyone else has said. consistency, mean what u say, follow through!

Teach yourself when they're small, to never threaten anything that you won't follow through on ...

... or you'll live to regret it!

ole joyfuelled

I have a friend who had a little girl in a department store. The little girl kept grabbing glasses off the shelf and my friend kept telling her no and putting the glasses back on the shelf. The little girl reached one more time for a glass and my friend grabbed her by the arm and picked her up and put her in the cart and told her I told you NO and NO means No and now you have to sit in the cart. The little girl of course started screaming at the top of her lungs so my friend decided that it was time to go. She went to the register to pay for her things and the lady at the counter asked for her driver's license as she was paying with a credit card so my friend thought nothing of it.

Two hours later the police and child services showed up at my friends home because the cashier had saw my friend grab the little girl by the arm and yank her back away from the glasses and put her in the cart. They claimed she used excessive force on the child and she was charged with child abuse and arrested without even being able to explain. They had to have the store pull video footage of the incident to prove my friend did not use excessive force to yank her back but enough to pull her away before she broke one and hurt herself. My friend was humiliated and afraid to take her child to a store for a very long time even though it was found she really did nothing wrong but just on the word of the cashier she went through all of that before they even had solid proof. Thank god for store video.

Aprile. This kind of thing happens frequently along with friends and family members making calls reporting child abuse out of vengeance. It really accounts for most calls to Childrens Services. Yet some of the extreme cases of abuse are ignored. A few years ago there was a divorced woman with two young children both under age 6 the youngest I think 3 was found dead...the boyfriend did it. .but my point of this is both of these children had been suffering from malnutrition...Children's service knew this yet didn't remove the children from the home..That child would be alive today had he been put in placement.

A girl child removed from her home do to horriable abuse by both parents. The child was returned after 6 months even though parents did not go for even a psychological evaluation. ....Children services made weekly visits for months..BUT not once did they see this child on the visits it was always a different story..she's with grandparents ect....eventually the child was found in the shed in a cooler...

Yet a parent that pulls a child's arm or smacks their bum can have the child removed pending an investigation which can take up to 180 days, or it used to.

I had dinner with my 3 County Commissioners this was about 17 years ago I spoke about this kind of stuff they of course denied this happens.I told them you are the boss so to speak of Children's service so find out or I'll ask your boss the County Judge....9 days later the Director of Children's Services stepped down and we had a new Director. Things haven't changed and I dont expect them to.

I took my 10 yr old grandson to buy his winter boots. I told him all we were doing was buying boots and I had no money for anything else. He picked out his boots and also a pair of sandals. I told him I'm not buying those sandals because he was there for boots. He took a little fit when I got in line to pay, so I just turned around, set the boots down and walked out of the store. No boots. Outside I told him "you know, not every grandmother does what I do for you and your sisters, so if you don't want to listen, then you can go without boots". He apologized and started crying so I ended up going to another store and he bought his boots without a fuss.

This reminds me of when I was a snotty adolescent and when I was mad at my mom I would threaten to call CPS on her. She would calmly say, "go ahead, they will send you to live with strangers" and that shut me up! To be clear, we weren't physically abused, we were spanked a few times and I think I got the belt once but yelling was her main weapon.

I prefer to assume that MOST parents do the best they can. Lord knows I wasn't a great parent but fortunately all mine are contributing members of society. If I had waited until my 40's to have children I would have been a much better parent.

"I prefer to assume that MOST parents do the best they can"

I'm not so sure. There are an awful lot of kids whose parents I've known to be some combination of indifferent, preoccupied with their own lives, or unwilling to prioritize the well-being and raising of their own kids.

If it is true that most try to do their best, there are too many parents around who are innately and incorrigibly inept.

I can remember when I was younger my mom would always threaten us, telling us if we misbehave, she's going to get that gorilla out of the cubbyhole to come get us. My goodness, I would have nightmares of these gorillas dropping out of airplanes trying to catch me. LOL My sister and I use to sneak up stairs to peek into the cubby holes, but we never saw a gorilla. But the threat worked. She also had the famous belt she would threaten us with. One night we were in bed laughing. She finally had enough and came it with the dreaded belt and start smacking us with it. LOL, she didn't realize we had the covers pulled up tight and we never felt a thing. Oh boy what a life, but we turned out ok. At least I think we did. LOL

The fallout from damaged and damaging parents is enormous. Hopefully, like moonie says, when you know better, you do better.

I can remember when I was younger my mom would always threaten us,
telling us if we misbehave, she's going to get that gorilla out of the
cubbyhole to come get us.

- linda_6. That is hilarious.

I spent 5 years at university getting my degree. You know how much time I spent on learning how to be a parent - a 6 week, once a week course on the terrible twos. How about you? And that job is a heck of a lot more important than any career.

I too, prefer to think that most parents are doing the best that they can given their own personalities, life situations and their own upbringing coupled with that of their spouse and the personalities of their own little darlings.

What would be really nice is if all those parents who are talking on their phones rather than to their children when in the child's company would hang up their damn phones. Saw it happening yet again in the grocery store today. Talk about being ignored, makes me wonder what kind of parents these children will be when it's their turn..

Moonie, I worked hard trying to be a good parent to my sons..I made many mistakes along the way as all parents do. When I was 40 Amiee was born and I got to do it all over again. I learned from some of my mistakes with my sons and didn't repeat them instead I made different mistakes LOL...than I was blessed with two grandsons one was just about 2&1/2 and the other 9 months...bound and determined I was going to parent with perfection.....of course there's no perfect parent and I find myself making new mistakes once again. I suppose my moral of this is...it doesn't matter your age mistakes are going to be made. LOL.... perhaps if I keep doing this I'll eventually find perfection....NOT...besides I can say one thing for absolute certainty. ..I will not be raising anymore kids....I shut off my answering machine...Hello The (insert name) orphanage you have em I take em....LOL.

Moonie I suspect after reading your posts for so long that you were a perfectly wonderful Mom.

Fenton, I also see parents with their kids and yep they are on the phone. I actually know a lady that is always telling her kids ..your to be seen not heard.....I LOVE talking to all of my kids. I couldn't imagine grocery shopping and talking on the phone while the boys tag along. We grocery shop as a family. Its partly that were all together and partly a learning experience for the boys although they don't realize that. Single file with me leading the way and Mike in the back with Amiee's wheelchair. The kids are mannerly and we're not loud although often enough someone will be laughing.

Its truely sad the parents that ddon't take the opportunity to talk with their kids.

Parenting is a task and responsibility that I think needs to have an "outcome" focus. Too many people miss that and it shows with how their kids wind up.

Sure, negotiating childhood up through adulthood involves avoiding many pitfalls and problems that can have long term consequences. Some kids may face more than others because of being at either opposite extreme of the socio-economic spectrum, in that both being either very rich or being very poor can each present special challenges and potential problems.

Results are easy to measure, the job of parenting is to prepare kids to be successful adults. Were the kids encouraged to have dreams and aspirations for the kind of lives they want to live, and guidance on how to achieve them? Did the kids bypass the obvious problems, avoid making life altering mistakes (like having kids or getting mixed up with the law or in relationships at too early an age), get prepared for responsible occupations (either through school or by training for a trade), and finally become happy and responsible adults who can take care of themselves and their families when that time comes? Or not? Credit and blame partially goes to parents for the ultimate outcomes. It's not about who has the best goodies for lunch on Valentine's Day.

I was a single mother at a very young age and hardly consider my daughter a life-altering mistake.

mamapinky, I was a loving mother... attentive and involved. My failure as a parent stemmed from the way I grew up, I think. I was well into my 20's before I ever knew about things like welfare and food stamps and people going hungry. Where I grew up, no one was rich and no one was poor. There was no unemployment... troublemakers were banished back to the states. If you wanted a good life all you had to do was work 7AM-3PM, monday thru friday.

Sure, there were very poor people but they weren't Americans. Uncle Sugar made sure all Americans where I lived were well taken care of. Uncle Sugar wanted us to be happy and he provided everything we could want. I didn't understand it wasn't that way for all Americans, everywhere.

After I graduated high school, Uncle Sugar gave me a job on one of his ships. So much fun for a teenager! But my parents fussed and fussed wanting me to go to college and have a "normal" job. So, I came back to the states, then winter hit.... cold, bone-chilling winter... and a few months later somehow, someway, I ended up on a flight to Jamaica. I was working at a resort for quite some time before I ended up having to tell my parents.

I spent a few years avoiding them as much as possible. Got married, starting having kids in a very non-normal kind of life. So, somehow I missed out on those lessons on what the "outcome" would be because life was all good with me!

Now, my kids are grown, none of them went to college or had any desire. It's not because I didn't want them to, because I did. Very much! But I failed to prepare them for adulthood. One of my sons struggles week to week to make ends meet. I really regret those failures on my part.

Elmer nailed it as far as I'm concerned.

Nannygoat, your decision may have been a life altering mistake for your daughter too. Unless you're suggesting that living with one parent instead of two, a parent too young to have adult maturity and life experiences, likely without income stability and without you know whatever else, was an advantage for her AND for you both short and long term? If so, that's nonsense. If you were one of the rare exceptions for whom everything worked out, it was because you were lucky and not because you were thoughtful.

Elmer, you're assuming to know nannygoat's situation. That's rather arrogant on your part.

"If you were one of the rare exceptions for whom everything worked out,
it was because you were lucky and not because you were thoughtful."

Or perhaps she's a good and loving mother who worked her a$$ off to give her daughter the best life she could. And you know, sometimes a less than "ideal" (whatever that is) life situation can create strong and resilient people. A determined, loving, single mother can provide just as good a life as many two parent homes can.

Thanks for your support, moonie and olychick.

Elmer, my daughter is a highly respected doctor and has made significant contributions to her field. Luck had nothing to do with her success, or mine for that matter.

A little tongue in cheek, but my goals for my kids while I was raising them was to get them graduated from Grade 12 without being involved in drugs, alcohol or the law and to have choices for school.

And as they near 30, my hopes for them are to be happy, to have finished school and to be on a career path of some sort of their choice.

And having two parents with a boatload of money and all the opportunities at their fingertips for their child, will not guarantee a successful parenting of a child.

Families come in all shapes and sizes. Whether your family looks like a Norman Rockwall illustration makes no difference.

My mother left my father nine months after I was born. She was 23 years old at the time. We moved in with my grandparents and I never suffered from that divorce a day in my life.

My mother remarried when I was five - she would have sooner- but this was back in the days of contested divorces and my father was not willing to let my mother go easily. My step-father was a fine man, but my family, in my heart, remained my mother and my grandparents.

We cannot presume to know what a person's family is like just from a census form description.

Moonie, the school where I work is in a town which is the district administrative centre. Because of this, it tends to be heavily populated by families who are on social welfare and need to be close to the services which are only available in district centres. I see a huge number of students who come from very dysfunctional families with neglectful or outrightly abusive parents, or are affected by foetal alcohol syndrome.

There are waaaaay too many parents who are making no effort at all to be ANY kind of parent, let alone the best one they can be.

Colleen, of course I wasn't referring to alcoholics and drug addicts. It just makes my life more peaceful to not worry and judge those around me. Not saying i never roll my eyes or shake my head but as a general rule i like to give the benefit of the doubt. To not, isn't going to help them and only makes me feel irritable.

Moonie, they're not all drug or alcohol affected. Some of them are just too damn lazy to put any effort in. To be blunt, it would have been far better if they had at least put in the effort of using contraception, because they see parenting as something that gets in the way of them pleasing themselves.

You should teach in the inner city charter schools in Ohio. Total. Hot. Mess.

When my kids were little and they did something like that, I would just reach in and grab them out. My grandson listens the second you say, 'ONE! TWO!..." and that's usually as far as you have to get. I work retail and I have had to tell children to go back to their parents. Parents don't know how to disciple anymore because if they yell at their kids, they get in trouble from strangers. If they don't yell at their kids they get in trouble from strangers. And lord help them if they grab their kids the way I did, someone will grab a licence plate number and call social services and next thing you know a social worker is knocking on your door because you abused your child. I've seen that happen.

Before marrying, my next door neighbor was a caseworker with the Dept. of Children and Family Services in Chicago. It's an impossible job. The supervisory jobs are 'clout' jobs. The department is hugely underfunded -- outside of the administrative salaries. I think I just read that there have been eight department heads in the last five years. Some case hits the newspapers and the department is 'reorganized'. (See: Titanic; deck chairs.)

When you remove a child from his home -- however squalid it is -- this is a trauma for the child. Foster care? Oh, please; *rarely* a good option. Be realistic; who would cope with damaged children out of the goodness of their hearts. (How many Mamapinkys are there?) None of the homes are good, or safe, or with enough resources or food. There are no fathers; there are lazy, jealous boyfriends. How to choose which surrounding is sufficiently bad for you to remove a child? Where will he go that is *better*?

If you don't remove a child and the child is injured or killed...it's all on you. Your caseload is twice what anyone could do competently. You have to return over and over to catch a family at home. You are detested and threatened in the neighborhoods and by parents. You have reams of useless paperwork. Who could remain in this job without becoming a zombie?