There should not be a toilet in the kitchen

If you have a powder room next to the kitchen, it should not double as a pantry. Potato storage next to the toilet is not advisable.

Do not have curtains hanging over the stove.

Cords for small appliances should not dangle near the faucet handle so you pull them into the sink when you turn on the water.

Cord should not cross the work aisle, especially if you have to step over them like a jump rope.

You should not use your toaster oven when it is sitting on a chair. Or you should at least not sit on that chair when you are using the toaster oven.

Unfortunately, these are all things I have seen.

I collect broken rules And sorry, but there are SOME rules in design beyond “please yourself”.

Dont put sconces in a shower. Or place a water catching improperly waterproofed ledge directly in the shower spray.

I have more. I just have to take the time to upload.

Wow Sophie those are doozies.

The problem with the "please yourself- there are no rules" mantra is that it is often a cop-out. If aesthetics matter to you, there are rules, for symmetry, rhythm, scale, and such. If function matters to you there are rules as well for usability and clean-ability and economy. Of course if you fully understand the rule, you are free to break it. But pretending there are no rules is not helpful.

Sophie, McManson and Microwave stepping stool had me rolling :)

Sophie, do you have a pic of the bath vanity with the top on? I know someone (um, my spouse) who suggested I do this to our low vanities and I said no pretty loudly. Would love to have final proof of how bad it would look.

I remember that McMansion reno.

While I think a pullout stool is a terrific idea, the one in front of a microwave is ridiculous. I know the next photo in that series is one of the woman flat on her back, covered in hot soup.

friedajune Spending $6000 on a gas range with 6 open burners, each at 15,000 btus, and not having any ventilation whatsoever

2ManyDiversions (me) friedajune, I'm not sure of the validity of this, but I'd read using a gas stove without ventilation was as bad as a pack-a-day cigarette habit. I think there was a study published in Environmental Health Perspectives but I can't find it so this might be an exaggeration as regards smoking.

Milly Rey A gas stove will produce very little other than carbon dioxide and water. I wouldn't get that worked up about it. It's WAY safer than candles, for instance.

I found the link(s) to the study and publication Here and Here, on the NIH, National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences website. It has merit. Clearly, not using ventilation with gas burner cooking is unhealthy, to put it mildly.

>> Results: The simulation model estimated that—in homes using NGCBs (natural gas cooking burners) without coincident use of venting range hoods—62%, 9%, and 53% of occupants are routinely exposed to NO2, CO, and HCHO levels that exceed acute health-based standards and guidelines.

Conclusions: Reducing pollutant exposures from NGCBs should be a public health priority. Simulation results suggest that regular use of even moderately effective venting range hoods would dramatically reduce the percentage of homes in which concentrations exceed health-based standards.

Summation: Emissions from gas stove burners can reach potentially harmful levels if the cook does not use a venting hood. >>

For what it’s worth, I have used and loved gas stoves – and 2 of them did not have ventilation. Huge mistake.

What else do you think should be avoided while designing or remodeling a kitchen?

• Drawers that are too narrow or shallow to be useful.
• Cabinet doors that when open block doorways.

I'll check the data for candles... There are also old vs. newer gas stoves.

I have never added a gas stove without EXTERNAL venting because that's not smart. I have also never moved into a place with gas that actually had a hood. Lol.

I want more Sophie pictures!!! WHY is that microwave step stool a professional photo? Is someone PROUD of that?

I once lived in a place with no hood--ventilation was a window RIGHT next to the stove so a stiff breeze could blow your burner out!!!

A side-by-side fridge/freezer where the fridge opens on the wrong side (when open, blocks the kitchen) so you have to close the door to put stuff on the counter next to the fridge.

Putting a coffee maker under an upper cabinet so you have to pull it out to fill it with water.

Microwave above a stove. It's hard to access when others are cooking and the door gets hot when the stove is on. Never again...

"The problem with the "please yourself- there are no rules" mantra is
that it is often a cop-out. If aesthetics matter to you, there are
rules, for symmetry, rhythm, scale, and such. If function matters to you
there are rules as well for usability and clean-ability and economy."

Nope -- aesthetics are about what YOU like, not what others tell you are necessary for something to pleasing and look good. The rules aren't "rules", they're just what is common (i.e. what most people find aesthetically pleasing). But not everyone is a part of the "most people" group. If you like the asymmetry you designed in your kitchen, that's fine. If you like the light diaphanous curtains next to the heavy, German-inspired cabinet hardware, that's fine too. The kitchens posted here that people go "ICK!" to might be loved by the people who own them, and that's all that matters.

It's the same for function -- the "rules" are only rules for what most people find most useful/cleanable/efficient, and that might be good to know for someone who has never worked in a kitchen. But, again, "most people" isn't everyone, and what most people like isn't a rule that everyone should follow. Not even mentioning that what's functional for a family of 5 might not be necessary for a solo adult who entertains a lot or for a retired couple without children or grandchildren.

There are no rules that say your home has to be attractive or useful for someone else.

I agree with Rita to the extent that ultimately there are some essential things that a particular culture finds aesthetically pleasing and there are rules or guidelines associated with that, and that the best way to deviate from them is to know what you are deviating from, and how you are deviating from it.

So I don't think you and Rita are quite talking about the same thing from opposing viewpoints.

That said...I think that there is a really narrow range of "acceptable kitchen aesthetics" in Gardenweb at any particular time, and woe betide anyone who wants to deviate from the formulae. There are multiple acceptable combinations at any one time, but very few kitchens that don't fall into a pretty distinct category.

Toronto Veterinarian, I agree wholeheartedly.

Well, darn, you are too fast for me! I also agree with palimpsest...

I am loathe to step into this again, as I cannot possibly speak as well about design matters as pal does. I think that there are two views of what aesthetics are. When I say there are rules about aesthetics, I do not mean there are rules about one style being preferable to another. It's not about one person's preference for streamlined Bauhaus inspired Bulthaup over another person's desire for the ornate luxury of Clive Christian. Both styles can be appreciated and understood within a framework of aesthetics. Of course it is a matter of to each her own taste.

With respect to functionality, of course, there are individual needs and circumstances. On the whole though, there are underpinning principles for what works in most circumstances. Some people come to GW and chafe at the many directives they find here, hoods are a must, cooktops may not be in an island, certain clearances. I found the rules here liberating because I came to understand how kitchens can work and I am free to improvise from that foundation, understanding the trade-offs. I do not have to take my kitchen designer's word for how things should work. I can make an informed decision on my own- in consultation with this great group and my husband.

There are no rules indeed for what makes something attractive to you personally. But there are rules for what makes a space objectively well designed- which does not mean there is only one way to design the space well. There are many ways of creating a beautiful, well functioning kitchen.

I was thinking more of bases than aesthetics when I asked this question. Things that can be guides for people thinking about their remodeling. For example, a filler of sort next to a wall if a cabinet door needs to be open more than 90 degree so that it doesn't hit the wall.

Fridge next to a wall oven is probably not a good choice as the heat from the oven would cause the fridge to overwork. Wine storage right next to a wall oven is a fast way to ruin wine.

Actually fridge next to the oven is not a great idea because with the popularity of French Door fridges, S x S, and even with certain door swings, damage to the refrigerator door by an open oven door or the oven handle is likely.

But beachem, I think that this thread has morphed a little bit because many of the things presented in the forum as absolutes---just aren't. There are a number of very specific safety and common-sense things regarding kitchen design, of course.

There's no reason not to have an island cooktop as long as you plan for clearances to walkways and ventilation.

"First I would adjust that aisle dimension to 36" - a 24" walkway would not allow you to open a dishwasher ( the door is 30")."

But if one does not have a dishwasher, then that point is mute. I agree with the OP on this. Aisle width "must haves" are exaggerated here and elsewhere online. 36" is nice....but having less does not make the aisle unworkable, at all.

"Don’t make hanging Chad piers for your mantle hood"

Oh dear GOD. That is almost frightening!

Or get a drawer DW which opens less than 24".I am not promoting this kitchen from my real estate collection, but many houses here have back ells that are very narrow, 5-7 feet. The "aisle" here appears to be a bit over 24". This is not what I would have done, but there are not a lot of choices here for expansion. Perhaps none.

here's another view

@pal yikes I'm not sure how you can work safely with the oven door down but the 3rd photo looks less cramped.

I had 24" aisle but the only doors were the fridge and the pantry door with of all things, pullout. When those were opened, no one can pass by.

Dang those look like RV kitchens LOL.

You can't work with the oven door open. You step to the side to open it. I know someone who lived in a house where the oven barely missed the brick wall opposite. And where is anyone going to pass by to? These are one person kitchens barely. I knew someone whose oven door just missed the exposed brick wall opposite. Plaster over the brick and the door would have hit. But you have to have a kitchen....

Yeah I wouldn't have one in THAT space. Well, I guess I would, if I had no other choice. Definitely would be challenging.

Nope -- aesthetics are about what YOU like, not what others tell you are necessary for something to pleasing and look good.

The old, I Like What I Like, even if it's dreck. Usually exclaimed by those who have no desire to take the time to learn why there are guidelines as to why a design, painting, room layout, etc works or doesn't work.

But if one does not have a dishwasher, then that point is mute. I agree with the OP on this. Aisle width "must haves" are exaggerated here and elsewhere online. 36" is nice....but having less does not make the aisle unworkable, at all.

Actually this is not a must have but in many jurisdictions, it's code that aisles must be a minimum of 36"

"The old, I Like What I Like, even if it's dreck."

Close......it's really "I like what I like, even if YOU think it's dreck". Why should anyone care whether you or some designer thinks it "works" or not? That's the part that I keep getting stuck on......why should someone design their living space to fit what someone else thinks looks good? People who make these choices aren't blind to what others think, they just don't agree. They know their choices aren't what most others would choose; they don't make their choice to be contrary, they choose it because they actually prefer it.

Why can't you allow that what looks good (or what looks like dreck) is different for different people?

Chess, these are 5-7 foot wide back ells of houses that are 9,11, or 12 feet wide, and Rowhouses. This is it. I've seen small but conventional millennial kitchens put in houses like this that take up the entire first floor. Which I think is pointless.

There is somebody here building a kitchen with an island that is bigger than my entire kitchen. That's fine. But you have to work with what you've got and sometimes what you've got is minimal.

This is a strange thread.

I'd say, don't buy appliances just for looks. If you don't cook like a chef, don't by a chef range. Do you really need a 22 BTU range?

This is the first kitchen I designed. It actually had 36" of prep space (some over DW) plenty of "aisle". The refrigerator was under the light to the left. The new owners bought a SS refrigerator and it was more than 27" deep so it stuck out in front of the sink. When I bought the place the fridge was where the cooktop is and you had to open the fridge door to open the DW all the way (it was a 24" DW).

The ceiling was 6' 6-1/2". There's nothing about this kitchen (and there were about a dozen almost identical) that meets all the "minimums".

Actually this is not a must have but in many jurisdictions, it's code that aisles must be a minimum of 36"

It must not be code in VA or DE or NC. Been in new construction in all 3, with aisles less that 36", and all were ample for working in.

But you have to work with what you've got and sometimes what you've got is minimal.

Yup. Very true.

Careful - This is what happened to the last thread that REAL codes on aisles were discussed, and they didn't want to take the time to learn why the codes are the way they are.

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/odd-feature-in-kitchen-dsvw-vd~4914328?n=87

"Because codes are developed by an independent body, the International Code Council, and are adopted into local laws, your kitchen must be up to code whenever you build or remodel.1 To build legally, you must have a permit, which often obligates you to have an inspector determine whether you’ve followed code at the end of your work."

"Best design practices are different. These are widely accepted ideas developed by kitchen professionals over time. Sometimes, practices are derived from code. Most often, they are not related to code but are considered common sense."

I believe the second paragraph describes aisle clearances. The NKBA makes recommendations. That isn't the same as building codes.

Chess, that is true which is why I said in many jurisdictions it's code. In my city in FL, it is code despite what some people here on this forum who love to show how much better they are than us mortals think.

Like I said, it's suggested in NKBA but in some jurisdictions it is code. My city has some really strict and sometimes ridiculous codes for everything from aisle widths in kitchens to what types of trees we are allowed to keep and what we can't cut down.

Yes, I know FL can have very specific codes. My brother is a builder down there, but further south than you. I've heard stories. But most of them are about the owners, LOL.

There's a difference between a work aisle and a passage space

Anyway, I think if you put zero drawers in a kitchen, you should be flogged.

My current designer kitchen had zero drawers when we moved in. Not one! So that's really mostly a peeve thing.

In those super narrow 5' ells, I would personally pull out the light well wall and hold up the upper floor with a steel beam. Install a "window" floor to ceiling--even cantilever it over the brick facade, flush, if I can't make the light well smaller. Now you have just stolen 6-8" of space without an "addition." 30" clearance for appliance doors. Narrow counter with shallow drawers into window. Uppers extra high so the windows count for something. Double oven induction range with microhood, under mount sink, dw opposite. At end of wall, steal the stud space and another few inches for an 8" deep pantry, floor to ceiling. The true counter-depth fridge would double as the visual "door" at the entry.

Miley Rey, I bought a new house a few months ago on the SF Peninsula. The kitchen is brand new, Wood Mode cabinets, Lacanche range, Dornbracht faucets, and not a single drawer! I am in a fortunate position to be able to re-do everything the way I want it- but - geez- makes absolutely no sense.

The thing about "aesthetics" is that they are mutable within a particular culture over time. If they weren't we wouldn't think that avocado appliances are "ugly". We might think that they are dated, but we wouldn't equate dated with ugly.

And people like Jonathan Hale feel that modern culture has actually lost the ability to discern the difference between aesthetics based upon true classical proportions from aesthetics based upon a "symbolic" cartoonish representation of an architectural style: i.e. Is it a real Georgian style house, or is it a contemporary house with the symbols of Georgian architecture tacked on. He posits that most people can't tell the difference, and also to some extent that modern culture may prefer the cartoon to the real thing even if they can tell the difference.

-----

The thing about "code" and "requirements" and "guidelines" is this: it only matters what your locale says about code in your locale. So it may be 36" aisles and exterior ventilation where you live, and that is all well and good, but I don't think people should insist on imposing it where it may not be a requirement, even if it's a great idea.

The kitchens I posted are exceptions to what one sees nationally but in old Eastern seaboard cities, this sort of thing is not uncommon. And the reality is yes, they're grandfathered and some of these dimensions would not be allowable in new construction, but--if they were a serious threat to safety they would be unallowable remodels even in preexisting structures and the structures themselves might be condemned. There are buildings here where the top floors (say where staff used to live) are "uninhabitable" due to ceiling heights of 6' and lack of means of egress, for example.

{{{bad pun alert}}}

With those low ceilings, perhaps being "short staffed" didn't used to mean a bad thing?

HA!

And people like Jonathan Hale feel that modern culture has actually lost the ability to discern the difference between aesthetics based upon true classical proportions from aesthetics based upon a "symbolic" cartoonish representation of an architectural style: i.e. Is it a real Georgian style house, or is it a contemporary house with the symbols of Georgian architecture tacked on.

Thank you for this explanation, Pal. I ordered Hale's The Old Way of Seeing. I can't wait to read the book.

I am stupidly excited about getting thick walls with my remodel. Super insulation makes a house feel sunbstantial, like old houses were. I know new conventional construction is often structurally superior, but it still FEELS flimsy.

I also think there are a lot of islands out there that shouldn't ever have been installed. Unless you have enough space around the island, do without. Don't fear the peninsula or small kitchen table.

@JulieB. I was visiting a house that my cabinet installer was installing and the island was a long 12" ledge. She got Ikea cabinets and wanted an island but since there was no room, insisted that he build a 7' long. 12" wide island.

It blew my mind. it was a narrow gallery kitchen. By the way, it stood between the stove and the sink as a barrier.

" By the way, it stood between the stove and the sink as a barrier."

LOL. I'm sure she looks at it and doesn't see a barrier between the sink and stove, she sees a landing area between the two.

I think kitchen tables are making a comeback.