One learns to deal with this.

When one is a 16 year old girl or a 22 year old woman with a job that allows her to live independently, but paycheck to paycheck ... not so much. I wanted to scream every time Burl Denson walked into the proofreader's room.

Anglophillia, I think it is a sad that you make women seem the problem, rather than the man making the unwanted/inappropriate comments or moves. I wonder if having lived with it for so many years, it just seems normal to you.

hullabaloo about unwanted advances?

I think most people can deal with "unwanted advances".

But no one should have to deal with being grabbed, groped, or touched, period. That is more than "unwanted advances", which sound so genteel it seems to cover someone trying to get on your dance card. I don't think someone in a hiring position whipping our his penis and ejaculating into a potted plant (as HW did) really falls under "unwanted advances".

Moreover, you are missing the key fact that these are business situations. These are not just girls file clerking. These are grown women who are trying to earn a living and build a career. Who want and deserve to be taken seriously and be given opportunity and respect. While sexual in nature, the import of it is about far more than sex. Put yourself back at the Kansas Corp Commission again. This time imagine you have a family to support, little education or portable skills and are trying to keep your job and move up in the company. Now how do you feel about being grabbed around the waist, and what are you going to do about it? Do you see how serious this is when looked at under those circumstances?

@Anglophilia, that's sad you fail to acknowledge of the severity of Weinstein's abuse of power. It should not be a PC issue, a liberal one or conservative, but a human issue.

As per Anglophilia...boys will be boys! And women just have to deal with it, no big deal.

It's disgusting to me that women join in to perpetuate the objectification and abuse of other women by men...especially men in positions of power. It's bad enough that men think this is a "women's" problem and haven't used their own status and power to end this treatment of their mothers, sisters, wives and daughters. But women holding women responsible is really unbelievable to me.

Wow Anglophilia...you think a man has to rape multiple women each day before it's a federal case? The man IS a serial rapist/assaulter/abuser/harasser and has been for decades.

How many instances of blackmail would someone need to commit before you saw it as a crime? Because sexual harassment like weinstein was committing is a form of black mail: watch me shower if you want a role in this movie...sleep with me if you ever want to work in this business again. It is coercing someone into doing something they don't want to do for the sake of their livelihood, their ability to make a living. If the "boys will be boys" or "women just have to learn to deal with it" is too much for you, perhaps seeing it as a form of blackmail will help you see it as the criminal act it is.

But beyond all that, you admit that unwanted advances is inappropriate behavior. So how will this behavior go away? How will society change to make it culturally unacceptable? Like it or not, it takes making a 'federal case' out of it including all the headlines and conversations in the HR departments and board rooms. And that includes waking up shareholders and board members that the illegal behavior of one of their rainmakers cannot be ignored just because it's a "women's issue". We saw a significant shift in behavior in the post-Anita Hill world, but clearly it was not enough. So we have to go through all of this again, and most likely will again until the message gets through and the behavior is eliminated.

Look, people who have unlimited power over other because the others are desperate may tend to abuse it, in a myriad of ways. That's why good places of employment have systems of accountability and checks and balances on power. I fear this universal axiom of human behavior management is beginning to sound "quaint."

"These are not just girls file clerking" oops... every bit as serious and abusive to "girls JUST file clerking". Likely they are young women and would be just as damaged by behavior such as this.

None of us was "damaged" in any way by this. In fact, we learned some valuable skills.

Unfortunately, unwanted attention is "normal" behavior and I don't see it going away. Accepting it is not the same as condoning it. Two VERY different things!

I think that all this talk about sexual harassment actually trivializes the far more serious matter of sexual abuse. They get lumped together and they are NOT the same thing! Sexual abuse is NEVER acceptable or condonable!

When I was in college, I took Psych 101. In it, we learned that most people are either "fight" or "flight" personalities. No question, I'm a "fight"! If someone treats me in a way I find offensive and that makes me feel very uncomfortable, I will NOT allow that behavior to "damage" me - that is giving power to this coarse, uncouth person and I will not do that. I learn from such behavior and how to avoid such situations in the future. I experienced very hurtful and frankly, appalling behavior from my first husband. I chose not to allow this to define me as a person or to "ruin" my life. Yes, one CAN chose how to feel about something! I learned this in therapy after my divorce and it was a very valuable lesson to learn. I've taught my children and grandchildren the same.

As for Anita Hill, I think the woman was a liar. I base this not on the TV hearings but on the fact that Sen John Danforth of MO was a staunch defender of Justice Thomas. He knew him VERY well and had done so for several years. Sen Danforth was known as a "squeaky clean" senator. He was also an Episcopal priest and held services for Congress on a regular basis. He's a man whose integrity has never been questioned. I trusted Sen Danforth when he said how much he respected and trusted Justice Thomas.

In most instances, a man who does what Anita Hill accused him of doing, is a "repeat offender". He doesn't do it once, get his fingers burned and turn righteous. There has NEVER been another accusation of Justice Thomas again. NEVER!

An accusation of sexual harassment against a man (or a woman!) is a very serious thing and can ruin a person's life. Just look at what happened to the Duke Lacrosse team. Their lives were changed forever due to a false accusation, and ti think that most people today don't even remember that, in the end, it was established that the woman lied and they were innocent.

We all must learn to deal with unwanted behavior from others. It may be something as benign as a neighbor who constantly drops by, uninvited. It may be a pass - even a grope from someone at work or at a social gathering. We don't need to "change people's attitudes" about such behavior; everyone AGREES that is is not acceptable. But we can't always change the behavior of others. We can, however, change how we react to it and deal with it, and that, WILL change the other's behavior.

I have a grandson going off to college next fall. I am spending a lot of time talking to him about how to tread the college world. I have no concerns about how he will do academically - he's very bright, very organized and disciplined. I do worry about the social scene at college. Just yesterday, I warned him to NEVER allow a drunk girl in his room or go to her room...even if they had been dating for 4 months and sleeping together. It's just a risk not worth taking. Find some of her girlfriends to get her into her room - only give her a ride, if other girls are in the car with her. NEVER assume that just because a girl is dressed highly provocatively and acting in a similar manner, that they are interested in sex. Don't drink too much (he doesn't presently drink or use drugs - worried it could affect his athletic ability). We used to have a name for such girls and their behavior is still the same. This is not "blaming the victim" or "shaming", just common sense.

No, I did NOT like it when a man goosed me at a party, or a boss was overly familiar. But I would not then, nor today, file a sexual harassment charge against him. I'd just warn other women to watch out for this cad. The word does get around and eventually it will get to his boss. At the least, he'll not get a promotion he thought he deserved, and he may eventually be let go by the company for one reason or another.

If this "offends" you, then that is your choice. I'm 74 and it has worked well for me over the years, and most women my age feel exactly the same way.

I wonder if that was why the older actresses like Jane Fonda, Glen Close and many others who knew about HW never came forward. These are ladies who probably learned how to deal with these sorts of creeps early on. Especially in the earlier days of their careers when such behavior of men in power was considered...I don't know, more boys will be boys.

I do sometimes have a hard time understanding why our culture is more and more becoming a "victim " culture though. It's almost like groups of people are competing on who is more of a victim sometimes. However, like Anglow said, people are fight or flights. I'm a fighter so I don't always get it. But then I don't always get why people are mean either. Sometimes you just have to come to the conclusion that there are kooks out there and continue on with your business.

Still, as a 57 year old woman I don't see how if I knew about HW I could keep quiet about it like the Janes and Glens did all those years. I would think it part of my duty to protect the little flight lambs. This isn't a case of a grabber or someone making sexual innuendo's it's a case of a nasty sexual predator pervert.

Harassment is not normalized in my female-dominated professional sphere and I am so glad of that. I hope we get to a state of the world where it’s not normal in ANYONE’S.

harassment exists on a spectrum.If you come from a place of financial stability and privilege, It would be infinitely easier to fight and walk away from a boss who demands favours for favours. If you have precarious employment, if you’re the sole earner supporting a young family, if you desperately need a good reference because your employment history is short or sketchy, if you’re a teenager with a terrible home life — congrats, you are the type of person a predator will want to know a whole lot better. A predator with power over you like a boss or professor, so much the better. So many factors come into play for society’s vulnerable: age, marital status, employment history, disability, addiction, mental health history, family history of abuse, immigration status. I don’t think it’s enough to say, hey I could fight it so anybody could. I think that betrays a real lack of empathy and understanding of different people’s situations. The whole point of harassment is that the other person does have power over you — and one of the biggest types of power for the millions of people who arent lucky enough to be financially well off is power over the paycheque.

I also think there have been women who have suffered terribly in the workplace in the past, it’s just that they could not share their stories because they would be blamed and shamed. It’s the same as pretending mental illness never existed before the 1950s. Generations of shellshocked soldiers would certainly argue differently, As would my great grandfather who didn’t get out of bed for weeks at a time or my numerous extremely nonfunctional alcoholic ancestors. Just because people didn’t talk about it doesn’t mean the pain wasn’t there.

Anglo, your views about sexual harassment are so archaic and disgusting that they don't even merit a response. You view everything from your narrow lens of experience and have an appalling lack of empathy. Not only about this subject but many others. I feel sorry for you.

I wonder if that was why the older actresses like Jane Fonda, Glen Close and many others who knew about HW never came forward.

They wouldnt have had first hand knowledge.

Oly, yes poorly chosen words. I wa trying to say what didn't matter to her in her situation could matter a lot to someone with less choices.

I've typed and retyped a response but just figure it's not worth it. I'm never going to change the minds of those who think that women who would come forward, at great person and professional expense to their reputations to call out a predator would be lying.

That women who feel traumatized by predators are weaker than the women who 'fight'.

All I can say is that victim blaming is ugly and pray that you or someone you love is never in a situation where they don't feel safe to speak up against their abusers.

Anglophilia, Anita Hill was a liar because one guy said Clarence Thomas was a good man? I’m not so sure that most 74-year-old women feel the same way you do, Sweetheart.

Oh, did I just call you Sweetheart? No offense.

Anglophilia, there's so much to respond to in your post...

I always believed Anita Hill. At that time, I worked with a fellow whose BIL was went to law school with clarence thomas. When he heard what Hill said, his BIL responded, "Oh yeah. That's my buddy, Clarence!" Considering how underreported these situations are, and how abused the victims can be by coming forward, and considering that many women share your attitude of "just deal with it", I always find it surprising when women have the courage to speak up.

None of us was "damaged" in any way by this.

Maybe you weren't "damaged" by the harassment or you refuse to recognize the damage that was done, but please don't diminish others' experiences by declaring something you don't know to be true for everyone. It is, can be, has been damaging for a lot of women in many ways: emotionally, financially, socially, career-wise, etc. Do not deny their experiences. And don't presume that "most women your age" feel the same way. You don't know that.

Sexual harassment does not diminish sexual abuse -- however you are defining both of them. There is a spectrum that can run from the uncouth remark to rape/murder. The fact that a certain activity can be placed on that scale does not diminish any other activity. Someone stealing a pack of gum does not make armed robbery a less serious crime.

I'm glad that your therapy has taught you that you have control of your reactions to situations. That's all well and good, but it does nothing to prevent illegal acts from taking place in the first place. Rather events like the HWs of the world coming to light raises awareness and alters behavior of the people who perpetrate these crimes, the police, the prosecutors, the courts, school administrators and board rooms and HR managers who become more aware of what these crimes are, how ubiquitous they are, the impacts they have on employees, students, management, men and women and children, and the bottom line. Only through awareness can these situations change.

And yes, strong people can rise above situations, but not everyone is so strong, nor has everyone faced the same degree of assault/fear in these situations. If you believe your psych 101 learnings, then you would understand that some people are not wired for fight through no fault of their own*. One would hope that realizing those facts would raise compassion in the hearts of those who have made it through relatively unscathed for those who haven't. One would hope that regardless of how one deals with these situations, we'd all recognize that we'd be better off if they didn't arise in the first place.

If you want to believe these situations can't change, that's your prerogative, but don't put down the people who disagree and are willing to fight for change to make the world a better place for all of us.

-----------------------

*I'm not saying I agree with this POV, only that you said you do.

For the record, there were several women who made allegations against Justice Thomas, and one as recent as last year. Not to mention, after what happened to Professor Hill, you'd have to be crazy to want to go down that path yourself.

I would also add, an opinion from Time.

Cool and unflappable, Hill looked the Senators in the eye and handled every question without hesitation. Her hands folded on the lap of her teal blue dress, her demeanor polite, cooperative and never defensive, she painted a vivid and sobering portrait of what it means to be victimized by sexual harassment — from the fears, embarrassments and humiliations she experienced to the repercussions it had on her work, health and career choices. Given the detail and consistency of her testimony, it was almost inconceivable that Hill, rather than describing her own experiences, was fabricating the portrait of a sexual-harassment victim.

As for Anita Hill, I think the woman was a liar. I base this not on the TV hearings but on the fact that Sen John Danforth of MO was a staunch defender of Justice Thomas. He knew him VERY well and had done so for several years. Sen Danforth was known as a "squeaky clean" senator. He was also an Episcopal priest and held services for Congress on a regular basis. He's a man whose integrity has never been questioned. I trusted Sen Danforth when he said how much he respected and trusted Justice Thomas.

Anglophilia, are you really serious? Yeah, I guess you are.

No, I did NOT like it when a man goosed me at a party, or a boss was overly familiar. But I would not then, nor today, file a sexual harassment charge against him. I'd just warn other women to watch out for this cad. The word does get around and eventually it will get to his boss. At the least, he'll not get a promotion he thought he deserved, and he may eventually be let go by the company for one reason or another.

Actually, in most cases the man does get the promotion and is not let go by the company.

I have been an in-house corporate attorney for more years than I care to admit, and part of my job is investigating complaints and trying to get the right thing done. Time after time, I have seen this type of behavior totally overlooked, even if it is widely known. If the man is a "good performer" at the company, the employer will try to find every reason in the world not to negatively impact his career. It is still a real push to have anything done about him. Not so much for the women who complain, many times. They are seen as pesty and whiny, and in many cases, not to be believed. Even when they all tell the same story. If even formal complaints don't do it sometimes, warning other women to "watch out for this cad" will be even less effective.

"Moreover, you are missing the key fact that these are business situations. These are not just girls file clerking." "Oly, yes poorly chosen words. I wa trying to say what didn't matter to her in her situation could matter a lot to someone with less choices."

Yikes, mtn. Why would it matter more to someone having fewer choices? That is wrong on so many levels, imho.

Anglo, I wouldn't count on the judgment of any man who vouched for Thomas over Hill. We have many "upstanding, honorable, church-going" members of Congress who have proved themselves to be hypocrites of the first order-one very conservative, anti-abortion congressman recently was outed when he was revealed to have tried to get his pregnant mistress to have an abortion. Danforth may very well be a fine person, but he could be very very wrong about Thomas. I believe Dr. Hill.

Cyn - because the dynamic is very much about power. Anglophilia thought the harassment she experienced was not a big deal; in her story it sounds as though it was a summer job between HS and college. She had power in that she would probably not have starved if she left nor would it have hurt her career.

The behavior of the man was the same.

But Anglo tells us everyone should just shrug off "unwelcome advances".

No one should have to, and that might have been clearer to Anglo if she had been in a different situation.

Senator John Danforth from the great state of Missouri WAS a well-respected man. However, just because HE believed Clarence Thomas doesn’t mean everybody else should. I doubt he was with Mr. Thomas 24-7 and therefore couldn’t know without a doubt that he was innocent.

IMHO, many men are sh!ts. And they lie because they can. I was assaulted. And my assaulter lied about it. In writing.

Thank-you to all who responded to Anglophilia's remarks in a thoughtful manner. I didn't have the words to respond without going ballistic.

I have 5 nieces - one is a lawyer, one is a sales rep in the medical field, one is a paramedic, one is a doctor and one is an actor and all in their late 20's/early 30's. I hope every day that they are safe from this type of insidious control and if met with it strong enough to meet it head on.

Anglophilia's remarks do a disservice to so many young women who are just trying to make their way in the world and to also say that other 74 year old women think the same as she does, is hopefully not true.

I don't know what message she is giving to her grandson but I hope it starts with "respect women always".

I am on my way out the door, but I want to add, in some way, an acknowledgment that Anglophilia certainly has her right to her opinion, and that there are cases in modern culture where people make a big deal out of things that may not be (this, to me, is not one of them). I am trying to say that I hope Anglo does not feel "picked on" even though I disagree with her.

I understand why so many women want to blame the victim. It's the same reason why young people blame the old for getting old: people want to believe it's the victim's fault because then it's in the victim's control and *their own* control to see that it doesn't happen to them.

If aging and the frailties and suffering that come with it is in my control, then I can make sure it doesn't happen to me. I'm never going to get old and frail like you did.

If being a victim of sexual assault is in my control, then I can make sure it doesn't happen to me. I'm never going to be raped/assaulted like you were...I can control that. I can retain my sense of personal power.

Sexual harassment, like spousal abuse, is not confined to female victims only.

Well, there is a difference between sexual pestering and sexual harassment. Pestering is putting up with boorish, inappropriate behavior in the office, harassment is the threat that if you don't put up with or tolerate sexual advances from your superiors, you will suffer some kind of repercussions on the job. I have worked in hostile environments where I was accused of lying about things much less serious than sexual harassment, so there are workplaces that are hostile in general, to both sexes. Some just to women because the men know they can get away with it, it is a culture that is tolerated by management. I think in many cases, harassment occurs and is tolerated by women when the man has some kind of power over the woman that ensures she will keep quiet. In most cases it is financial, but in some cases, it is just that if she complains she will either be dismissed as whining or not believed. The threat is that if the woman complains, her work record will be tarnished in some way, or she could lose her job. Women who can weather such a situation (loss of references or loss of job) will probably not experience as much pestering or harassment, and if they do, they will have the resources to fight back. As with predators who prey on young children, a person who gets his jollies by intimidating or abusing women sexually, will identify and go after those they know are in a position not to be likely to fight back. So a sexual predator will go after a kid that has parents that are poor and lack resources to confront them, or a child that has a bad relationship with their parents (maybe from abuse at home too) or are in a situation where they don't have someone they can confide in or is monitoring what's going on with them, or else if they speak out, they will not be believed. In MANY cases, (in fact almost all) sexual predators are fine upstanding, often married men (think Jerry Sandusky but I have known plenty of other pillars of the community who present one face in public and another in private). Abusive people gravitate towards situations where they will not be held accountable.

Anita Hill never claimed that Clarence Thomas sexually harassed her, i.e. he did not make a threat that if she didn't put up with his sexual comments at work she would get a bad reference from him. She made that quite clear. What she did testify, was to his crass comments and behavior, that she put up with for the good of her career. Look how she was pilloried and accused of lying when she spoke about it, so it stands to reason that she was smart enough to know if she spoke up at the time it was happening, the same would occur, and at that point in her career she could probably not afford to take that kind of hit. She was not married and was the sole breadwinner for herself. And of course Thomas didn't talk that way to his male minister friends and colleagues with whom he was on equal or lower footing. They would have never put up with or respected him if he did. But with females he might have been different, that is not surprising. At this point, being crass, rude and bullying is no longer a deal-breaker in public service anyway.

In situations where women have equal power to the men they work with, sexual harassment rarely occurs and when it does, it is dealt with if the women complain. Two times I was harassed when I worked for an organization with a high level of accountability in general, and in both cases, I was believed and remedial action was taken. In one case, I was told I never had to do business with one of the vendors again, and in the second case, the person was dismissed because he was a repeat offender. The other situation where I was solicited at work occurred in a hostile work environment, and I was accused falsely of all kinds of things so there would have been no point in complaining. It was just a one off encounter with someone who I was just working with temporarily, so I just brushed it off since he didn't threaten me. That was a case where the man was a respected, married teacher at an elementary school whom everyone liked. He didn't show his Mr. Hyde personality until we were alone with no witnesses. It was so bizarre I thought he was having a reaction to some kind of medication. In retrospect, it was late in the day and he might have had a secret drinking problem . . . or not.

Sophie, what a beautifully written, powerful essay. I overheard a young songwriter being interviewed on NPR the other day. She was asked about the Harvey Weinstein mess and she said, "It's good that we are talking more about it, and that women are understanding the importance of sticking up for each other. But, really, it just comes down to a lot of men doing bad things to women. They just need to stop doing bad things to women." I immediately thought, out of the mouths of babes. Stop raping women, stop beating women, stop taking advantage of women, stop scaring women, .... just stop.

This may be controversial, but I am a big fan of Lindy West. She is worth reading.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/17/opinion/columnists/weinstein-harassment-witchunt.html?_r=0

I love Lindy West. I hope she's the one who recommended her pullquote for the headline:

Yes, This Is a Witch Hunt. I’m a Witch and I’m Hunting You.

Edited to add: There's a construct I learned about way back in the day (20 years ago I guess) where as a society we tolerate certain terrible behaviours much better than we do the name of that behaviour. For example: it's a wink and a nod at sexually aggressive behaviour, but it's terrible to actually call someone a rapist. Or how many times do you hear someone say, "I'm not a racist BUT....(something horribly racist)." It's like dude, you totally are 100% a racist, just own it! Your actions are way more terrible than the words! But for some reason calling someone the name is a crime in and of itself and seemingly worse than actually committing the crime.

Oh, it’s 100% equivalent of the lack of self awareness that would lead someone to say, “I’m not sexist, BUT...”, “I’m not a homophobe, BUT...” , “I’m not racist, BUT......”.

Some of these old people sincerely believe that they aren’t any of those things. Then comes the BUTS that proves that they just aren’t self aware enough to know that they are.

”Ive never been harassed BUT... “ means that you have. You just excused it as “normal male behavior” because of cultural conditioning. The fact that you accept the behavior is just as much of an issue as the behavior. Reject the conditioning. Even an old dog can learn new tricks.

BUT is always an issue.

And some of these "old people" are quite self-aware and understand fully because we have lived it. No 'buts' here. ;-)

One thing particularly characteristic about sexual harassment on the job is so many women are told it's their fault because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, or they were drunk, or dressed inappropriately. But NONE of that applies to women at work and yet they are assaulted there too.

Here's an example of sexual harassment at an office where the complainant was not harassed, but where the atmosphere was so pervasive that she won her case.https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1988/05/14/judge-finds-sexual-harassment-at-sec-office/4d62d3e7-a97e-4e91-aeeb-d59d753b838d/?utm_term=.89e9fd6f5520

Beautifully and most eloquently said, Sophie. Thank you thank you, thank you!

I don't know if this thread and all the Harvey talk on a local talk radio station has made me more aware this week or what... but I've been looking at flooring and tile. I worked with this store when I helped my sister redecorate her home last spring. The salesman doesn't pressure, is helpful, etc. But this week, he has been invading my private space - standing too close at times. Several times. I just get a weird feeling.

Yesterday I didn't have an appointment, but dropped by to see more samples (didn't care if he was there or not). I arrived just after 1pm and it was close to 2 when leaving. I felt bad because I didn't call ahead and didn't want to interrupt an appointment or late lunch. I'm quick to say "get that" if he's called on speaker. I'd rather look alone anyway. He asked me if I had eaten lunch yet. I replied "of course." Surely he wasn't about to ask me to lunch. He's married. I'm married. I honestly wouldn't be interested anyway. He came to measure the other house Tuesday, when DH and I were both there.

Then, as I was leaving/but still in the store/walking ahead of him, he says "Can I ask you something? Have you put color on your hair lately?" I didn't turn around, but said "Often, lots of gray." He then says "it looks like you have blond highlights. I like it." Or maybe it was "it looks good," Really?! I said nothing. I don't seek attention and don't want attention. I only want compliments from my husband or close friends.

So now I'm going to be more guarded around him, and move if he stands --> <-- this close to me again. I am not flirty. I'm southern, which means I am nice/friendly. I don't dress inappropriately. I'll never understand some people.

This morning on the Today Show they were sharing stories of how their parents met. One said her dad accidentally got on the wrong bus one day, but saw her mom. For weeks afterwards, he intentionally rode that bus until they talked. The panel all thought it was so cute, I thought another way of looking at it: he was stalking her.

I’m a little late to this as I’m still in wedding mode. :-)

I guess my question to Anglo, Who states that none of us were damaged, would be define “damaged”. Does “damaged“ include learning to walk with your shoulders rounded so that you call less attention to your chest because you’ve been objectified so many times? Does it include dreading walking on a trading floor when you’re 25 because you know you’re going to get hit on aggressively ? Especially when you’re escorting news crews? How about being groped by a mascot or on the subway? Look at men, how they sit on the subway, all sprawled out. I would never do that, too vulnerable. How about a teacher who leaned in to give a quick kiss, on the lips, at the end of ninth-grade? All of these things leave a mark. And the best way to begin to erase that mark is to instruct our daughters to stand up for themselves And teach our sons to knock it off.

Yes, we were damaged. To think otherwise is to give outrageous behavior a free pass.

jo

BPathome,

I think intent matters. He, apparently, intended to get to know her and date her. He didn't attend to assault her. And presumably, he would have desisted if he sensed she was uncomfortable, as we can presume based on the happy ending that he was "normal".

But, your comment reminds me of a question friends had over dinner. Does the HW story feel any different if HW were Brad Pitt? We agree it should not, but it might have.

And MtnR, that's the thing: it's hard to read someone's intent, and if they are just clumsy in how they go about it.

And btw, maybe there IS a story with Brad Pitt, but no one has come forward.

My son is in the theater community in his town, and recently a theater closed because of the horrendous assault and abusive behavior by its creative director. Actresses warned each other about him, but still took the roles because the work was good (interesting plays, good productions) but finally word got out publicly via a newspaper article, and it all collapsed around him.

LOL of course there is a story about BP! Figures

Just the idea that it was brad pitt or some other handsome man would NOT matter. I was gaga over mel gibson for years as I thought he was so incredibly handsome. Then he went on his drunken antisemitic rant. Believe me, I learned how ugly he was really fast! And to me there is nothing less attractive than someone who knows they're attractive and makes sure you know it too and then uses it to get away with stuff -- male or female, matters not.

The difference between pursuing someone because you like to date them, pestering someone, and harassing someone, is the power in the relationship. Does the woman have the power to tell you to knock it off without personal or professional repercussions? And since part of the thrill for predators is "getting away with it," they seek out victims who are in a weaker position than them so that they can be intimidated. I was not damaged by the sexual pestering I was subjected to, because I had the ability to get away from it, so it was an annoyance rather than a life-threatening situation (in other words, my ability to support myself was not threatened.) I have put up with bullying on the job of other types, and I have fought back, and I have suffered the consequences, they are real. If you have a supportive family or spouse or professional network, you may not know what I am talking about, you may have never experience this. A close friend of mine was shocked to experience bullying at work after 20+ years at her job, due to a new person in a quasi supervisory capacity where she worked. I said, "Welcome to my world. And y'all thought I was exaggerating or just being weak before it happened to you, right?!" (I actually didn't say that, just thought it.) Oh, and my friend just quit to ultimately deal with the problem. She had some family issues too that came into play, but also, she was not the main breadwinner in her family. She will regroup, but she could much better take the hit than me, who has only my own income and my own retirement resources, along with no children who will help care for me in my old age. My professional reputation and job mean EVERYTHING to me. And I am hanging by a thread financially because I did stand up to bullies at work, and I did take a hit as a result, to my pocketbook. Predators prey because they can get away with it. Of course some people have the maturity and strength of character to not do it, but there is a whole group of reptilian people out there who do not have an internal moral compass.

I thought this was a fairly honest reaction. Imperfect but sincere.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/19/movies/tarantino-weinstein.html?action=click&contentCollection=Politics&module=Trending&version=Full&region=Marginalia&pgtype=article

I am not a big fan of Tarantino but I was very impressed by his honesty. I also liked the Lupita Nyung'o piece. Her nuanced explanation of the entertainment industry being an entire business weirdly based on false intimacy was very compelling

Yes, her writing was excellent and her story so relatable. Except she is far more brilliant and gorgeous than me!

From Lupita Nyung'o's (that was fun!) article. I find it quite prescriptive! She took the hit and survived because she was surrounded by a supportive community.

"I was part of a growing community of women who were secretly dealing with
harassment by Harvey Weinstein. But I also did not know that there was a
world in which anybody would care about my experience with him. You
see, I was entering into a community that Harvey Weinstein had been in,
and even shaped, long before I got there. He was one of the first people
I met in the industry, and he told me, “This is the way it is.” And
wherever I looked, everyone seemed to be bracing themselves and dealing
with him, unchallenged. I did not know that things could change. I did
not know that anybody wanted things to change. So my survival plan was
to avoid Harvey and men like him at all costs, and I did not know that I
had allies in this.

Fortunately for me, I have not dealt with any such incidents in the business since.
And I think it is because all the projects I have been a part of have
had women in positions of power, along with men who are feminists in
their own right who have not abused their power. What I am most
interested in now is combating the shame we go through that keeps us
isolated and allows for harm to continue to be done. I wish I had known
that there were women in the business I could have talked to. I wish I
had known that there were ears to hear me. That justice could be served.
There is clearly power in numbers. I thank the women who have spoken up
and given me the strength to revisit this unfortunate moment in my
past.

Our business is complicated because intimacy is part and parcel of our
profession; as actors we are paid to do very intimate things in public.
That’s why someone can have the audacity to invite you to their home or
hotel and you show up. Precisely because of this we must stay vigilant
and ensure that the professional intimacy is not abused. I hope we are
in a pivotal moment where a sisterhood — and brotherhood of allies — is
being formed in our industry. I hope we can form a community where a
woman can speak up about abuse and not suffer another abuse by not being
believed and instead being ridiculed. That’s why we don’t speak up —
for fear of suffering twice, and for fear of being labeled and
characterized by our moment of powerlessness. Though we may have endured
powerlessness at the hands of Harvey Weinstein, by speaking up,
speaking out and speaking together, we regain that power. And we
hopefully ensure that this kind of rampant predatory behavior as an
accepted feature of our industry dies here and now.

Now that we are speaking, let us never shut up about this kind of thing. I
speak up to make certain that this is not the kind of misconduct that
deserves a second chance. I speak up to contribute to the end of the
conspiracy of silence."

I had to post this DISGUSTING story out of Edmonton. There has been a culture of fear, sexual harassment and intimidation that has continued at the correctional facility there for YEARS. How many people had to look away to allow this blatant and criminal behaviour to continue?! This makes my blood boil!!!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/prison-guards-accused-of-using-inmates-as-weapons-to-cover-up-alleged-sexual-harassment-1.4378784

Some "highlights"

"Over the course of a year, CBC News interviewed a total of seven past or present EI employees who say they have direct knowledge of sexual harassment, threats and intimidation by male staff against female employees at the facility. They say it's been happening for several years.

CBC News has agreed not to reveal their identities because they say they are afraid for their safety. An eighth person withdrew from participating in this story, even anonymously, because she said she believed her life was in jeopardy.

The sources say female staff in general — and female prison guards in particular — are targeted by some male co-workers for degrading comments, jokes, gestures and sexual advances."

"Sources say it's typical for perpetrators of harassment to hint to a victim that if she doesn't keep quiet, they may "miss" seeing her get assaulted by an inmate."

"Sources described several examples of managers or colleagues identifying people who reported harassment, and then singling them out for consequences like not responding to requests for backup."

In another prison in Canada, a security camera caught a male guard ON TAPE poking his female colleague right up between the legs with a metal tool...of course no consequences for him despite an internal investigation finding he harassed and bullied her. And no support from her union.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/female-prison-guard-sexually-harassed-1.4299400