Chi....I'm sorry for what happened to you.

I used the term "prey" and "predator" to describe "situations". When I was a young lady I felt "hunted".

You tell me...is this woman "asking for it"? Does it have anything to do with her "comportment"? Is she dressed too provactively in jeans t-shirt and sneakers? Should she just feel "complimented" that all these guys are making comments?

I too am sorry for what happened to you Chi. It is one of the most horrific examples of rape I can imagine. I do hope your therapy has helped you understand that your father is not a representative of most men. I would think there are even male predators who would not condone what was done to you.

I hope you see yourself more as a survivor than a victim. Don't let that beast win.

"Maybe I just know a lot of strong and self-confident women? I'm open
to hearing more but my experience has been that most women don't lead
such paranoid existences. I'm sorry for anyone whose previous
experiences, community environment or personal feelings lead them to
this."

Please tell me what being strong and self-confident have to do with not being a target of sexual harassment or sexual violence? I happen to be both, yet as I mentioned I am catcalled and worse on a daily basis. That I have not been physically assaulted is likely a matter of both luck and the precautions I take when I am out in my community alone. There is no paranoia in these precautions - simply an understanding of reality. I happen to be much more physically imposing than most women (6' tall), but I know quite well that even my size is no defense against a man or group of men that are likely to be larger and/or have vastly greater upper body strength.

"Of course men can be creepy and inappropriate. Women can be
too. I can't tell you how many times I've been groped or
inappropriately touched. I laugh it off."

While I agree with you that women can be inappropriately touchy just as men can, the fundamental difference goes back to the last sentence of my previous paragraph. As a man, it is unlikely that you would be attacked by a woman physically capable of overpowering you (unless she had a weapon or you are an unusually slightly-built man). Women do not have this advantage.

Me too, sorry chi.

Chi. I AM going to *like* what you've said because like you I am a survivor. Only a woman that has truely survived this can stand strong and not feel shame that this has happened to them as a child. Yes I too was raped as a child by a parent.

I don't think anyone here is victim shaming. I do think tying every misstep and oafish behavior by men as part of some so called "rape culture" is truly disrespectful to those who have actually been raped.

Harvey Weinstein is a pig. That's a given. If it is proven he raped women (or men for that matter) he should be punished as the law allows.

But I have a tough time sympathizing with a women who say they were raped and then later return to have consensual sex with their attacker. They are no longer victims at that point. they are selling their bodies in return for favors. There is a name for that.

Thanks. Yes, I know that most men are not like that, and I'm not ashamed of it. He should be ashamed, but he's not because he was never punished and he was able to do it to other little girls too later on. Still hasn't been punished, and still out there.

Even with therapy you're never quite over it, and I will probably always have trust issues despite having wonderful men in my life. That's just how it goes.

I'm sorry that you went through that as well mamapinky. It's far too common.

Thank you chi. I'm so sorry you have suffered such devastating abuse.

I agree that there is a lot of victim blaming in this thread. I posted my thoughts as to why on another thread. If you blame the victim, you assume it's in their control, which means you think it's also in your control to see that you are not a victim. It gives a sense of security...a false one...but a definite one.

Mamapinky, I'm so sorry to hear that you have suffered such outrageous violation as well.

"olychick, of course men can be creepy and inappropriate. Women can be too. I can't tell you how many times I've been groped or inappropriately touched. I laugh it off."

This is part of the problem, Elmer.

You absolutely should not have, nor should you ever in the future, "laugh it off"....

I have never seen an findings that women "think about sex all the time". I have seen studies that men DO. Sounds like a biological gender difference to me.

I didn't grow up knowing the extent of this male preoccupation. Since it does exist, aren't women foolish to deliberately provoke male sexual attention? Isn't this 'baiting'?

Do not tell me women dress provocatively for any other reason than to attract male attention. Yes, a nun could catch a man's eye, but that's a far cry from display to arouse -- if you KNOW how easily that happens.

We expect men to wait for an invitation. However, aren't provocatively dressed women issuing one? Why do the men in some cultures recognize this male drive -- and keep their females 'safe' from it.

Chi -- I'm so sorry for your tragedy. I'm so glad you've overcome it.

Taking precautions when out is something everyone needs to do. Men and women. Newsflash. Smart men are aware too. Violent crime doesn't discriminate on gender. Violence against women often has sexual undertones. But men are more often the victims of knives, guns and getting rat packed and beaten to within an inch of their lives if they survive.

Being prepared and aware is smart. Being fearful and paranoid is not. Bullies can spot a victim, Sexual predators can spot a victim. Thieves can spot a victim.

It's in the walk, it's in the body language, it's how distracted you are. Look around. How many people are staring at their phones while they walk. How many others slump their shoulder and walk with an old persons shuffle even if they are not old nor disabled. How many pull their wallet out to pay and flash cash ,then instead of stopping to put things away their wallets while walking out.

I never drink alcohol at a party, in public or with a man.

I am really perplexed by this one. I seldom drink but when I do I am socializing. We don't even keep liquor in the house. During really hot weather I may buy a pack of beer. Generally I only have one or occasionally 2 drinks if it's over a few hours and switch to club soda. But once in a blue moon there are exceptions.

Once I was on a trip by myself a few years ago and I wanted to go to a bar I happened to like. A little dive bar. I could go alone, had done so in the past, but then I couldn't drink and had to watch my own back. So I called a friend and he rode up to meet me. Rode up over 150 miles. Those are the kind of men I know. Chivalry is not dead. So I got to enjoy several beers over the next few hours, even got a little buzzed, feel perfectly comfortable with my back to the door, people watch and also have a nice visit with someone who was watching out for me. Later on he left to go home and I went on drinking soda and talking to a guy I knew from before and a few others. By mid evening I was really to go back to my room and relax with a book and memories of a pleasant day. No worries, no strings. No drama. That is why I prefer to drink with a trusted guy. So I guess my experiences and perspectives are a lot different.

What a thought provoking conversation.

pennydesign, my comment applied to my own reaction. There's nothing funny or appropriate about being on the receiving end of any unwelcome situation when female and the perp is male, period. And or maybe even 12 inches taller and 100 pounds heavier. I get that. I'm not part of any problem of this sort, believe me.

When a 120 pound female "friend" at a party kisses me Hello or Goodbye too passionately and presses against or even grabs my crotch while doing so (and sometimes rubbing their breasts against me too), it makes me laugh. It's beyond suggestive but for me, it's not threatening. I wasn't equating the two.

Just watched Annie's video. That's harassment? Over ten hours is that the most they could come up with? OMG Stop the presses. The only thing came near was the one guy who kept coaxing her to talk to him. And he was just annoying. Certainly not scary. Someone walked alongside her in the same direction for five minutes? In New York!!! The horror.
Have a good evening and God Bless are catcalls now? Jeeesus.

Chi and Mamapinky- I am so sorry. I can’t imagine the deep psychological pain that you must have went through. I find this conversation so sad.

None of the men I know would ever presume that some woman stranger on the street has one iota of interest in being greeted/walked with/ talked to/complimented or anything else by a man she doesn't know (and even sometimes men she does know but wants nothing to do with). It's a power and entitlement thing for men to believe they have the RIGHT to women, access to women, any woman, regardless of what a woman might want. If being ignored isn't enough of a clue to a man that his attention is unwelcome (which he should just presume from the get-go), then he is more than clueless.

I would think there are even male predators who would not condone what was done to you.

Since you don't see Weinstein as a predator, watchmelol, I doubt you would recognize a predator to be able to ask.

"Violent crime doesn't discriminate on gender. Violence against women
often has sexual undertones. But men are more often the victims of
knives, guns and getting rat packed and beaten to within an inch of
their lives if they survive."

Don't you love it when a discussion about harassment and other violence against women ALWAYS turns to how bad men have it, too? Since the vast majority of violent crimes are committed by men, since men are in control of every institution in this country, all the powerful government positions are held by men, law enforcement, judges, lawmakers, every single thing is male majority, then how about if MEN figure out how to change it? They haven't done such a good job, thus far.

As long as humans have walked the earth there is good and evil. You can't legislate morality. Maybe if feminists stopped playing the victim card and went back to the original goals of egalitarianism instead of promoting themselves as a group of a special needs infants needing extra protection everywhere one turns there would be more opportunity for them in powerful positions. But new age feminism makes a mockery of what strong, confident women have fought so hard to achieve. It's downright embarrassing actually.

gyr_falcon I think what they meant by this is that even among criminals in jail there's an unspoken rule that you do NOT touch children. Those men usually have the crap beat out of them.

wow...I don't even have the words watchmelol...

You would have preferred the woman in the video to be sexually touched in order for you to agree she was being harassed, Watchme? I have had days like that, where you cannot get a bit of peace because some joker with a penis has to insert himself in your life. I have been sexually touched in the operating room, WHILE I WAS WORKING, by a male nurse who was there to pick up the donated organs of the brain dead young woman on the table. I was so shocked I just stood there with my mouth hanging open behind my surgical mask, and never told anyone. And I WOULD HAVE been raped by my grandfather had I not been able to outrun him. That happened when I was 12 years old, after years of him telling me how beautiful I was. I never allowed myself to be alone with him again. And to her dying day, I did not tell my lovely Mother what her father tried to do to me.

Please stop the shaming. What kind of an asinine statement is "Maybe if feminists stopped playing the victim card and went back to the
original goals of egalitarianism instead of promoting themselves as a
group of a special needs infants needing extra protection everywhere
one turns there would be more opportunity for them in powerful positions"? You sound like a bitter, bitter woman.

You're right, it is embarrassing that in the US we still can't even pass an equal rights amendment to assure women have the same legal status as men. And to blame feminism for the victimization of women is simply laughable. Blame sexism, blame misogyny - feminism is a response to those things not the reverse.

mamapinky -- I've just now seen your mention of childhood rape. Such 'in family' betrayal is sickening, yet evidently more common than the ballyhoo over 'stranger danger'. Who believes a child? I'm sorry.

Chi -- I hate to read that your father's crimes have been covered up. It's a horrible truth that child abuse of any kind usually goes unspoken and unpunished. What could be worse for a victim?

I don't remember that anyone ever molested me, but I remember refusing to sit on Grandpa's lap. I am not saying he was perverted, just that I can still remember this, even though I can't have been more than four.

Chi and mamapinky, I'm so very sorry.

As to that video. Where the heck was she walking anyway? I have lived in NYC and have been regularly visiting there for 50+ years. When I was young, I was quite good looking (when I look back at pictures, I'm rather astonished!), but I never experiences what she did. She sure wasn't walking in mid-town Manhattan. Most people in NYC pay no attention to others around them. In fact, if one stops suddenly, one might get walked on!

I wish we had a "dislike" button also.

I really don't get it, watchmelol. Did you enjoy being harassed? Unless you did, I don't understand why you would put down the people who, by bearing witness and raising awareness, are doing what they can to change the culture so this abuse is minimized or eliminated.

Let me raise YOUR awareness Annie. A man on the street saying have a good day is not harassing you. Maybe it's just wishful thinking on your part. So yes, if THAT defines harassment to you I do enjoy it. I like friendly people. I can also take a compliment and, because I actually have a working brain, I can determine for myself if a man is being well meaning or crude rather than following into lockstep with the dilusional thinking that if it came from a man's mouth it must be suspect.

Why am I not feeling the harassment of a truly rude cat call? Because that guy doesn't hold power over me. He's just some stupid idiot on the street with no manners. Why should I take the time for anger. I'll save my anger and adrenaline rush for the real threat thank you very much.

But the people doing the most harassing HERE are those calling me out for not being a good, obedient, little feminist comrade and following them down into the abyss of judging men by their gender and thoughts rather than by their actions. Those same women who want to be taken seriously but weaken the perception of their own gender with all the silly rules and protections they demand. Putting a woman like me down for refusing to live my life every step of the way reacting with fear of the what if boogy-man, of liking men (the enemy) and trusting that most are not out to harm me. That is harassment. But does it bother me? Nope. Because the people doing it have no power over me.

Have you heard of the broken windows theory?

Disagreement with someone is now harassment? That's a new one!

This thread proves what I've said for years. Simply saying "good morning" is offensive to some.

It's curious how a certain group wants to claim they're every bit as strong as men yet this thread certainly proves otherwise. And as someone who historically hired without regard to gender, treated employers/employees, friends and otherwise as equally as possible, I find it insulting that so many are unable to live up to their claims. It's really sad to give credit to a gender when so many are scared of someone talking to them. Paranoia running wild. A close friend of mine cries all the time that she's so scared living alone in the country. The someone might do something fears. I can't help but say if you're THAT scared to live there, MOVE! Why on earth would a sane person choose to live where they're scared? If it takes a windowless room in a security building in a gated community surrounded by armed guards then do it. People have the (limited) right to live where they feel safe. However to ban anyone else from living in the community or driving the roads because you feel someone might be following you is NOT your right. Others can walk most places you walk, drive most places you drive and if you're scared, why would you not do something about it?

Having had something actually happen is sad. But that doesn't entitle paranoia. And yes the overuse and incorrect use of "sexual harassment" is offensive. It''s not unlike the overuse and misuse of the term "bullying" which seems to be used by many of the same people.

I can't remember being catcalled (new word to me!) when the man was not in public, in the company of other men. IME, most men are covert in their observation of women. Catcalling sounds like macho posturing. The caller does not expect (or *want*) the woman to respond. I'm not offended; it's pitiful.

I'm not sure how this degraded into only being offended by catcalls, but I think that's an oversimplification.

cynic, your friend can move. Women can't stop being women. Further, if they're a pretty woman, are they suppose to scar themselves somehow so they won't receive the unwanted attention?

Not all attention in public is threatening. Not all situations are threatening. People who see the world that way live tortured existences in constant fear.

rob, haven't you had experiences when unexpected but nonthreatening attention made you feel good, as a compliment? If you and I get into an elevator alone and you stare at the wall, or we're sitting in a waiting room and you avert your eyes to avoid contact, I'll think there's something odd about you. If I make an innocent, friendly comment, does your fear mechanism immediately begin? I hope not.

Elizabeth A, I'm sure you're not a Lab but I also hope you're not a stone statue either when dealing with strangers.

Don't you love it when men mansplain women's experiences?

rob, haven't you had experiences when unexpected but nonthreatening attention made you feel good, as a compliment?

Not really. Do you go around and pay nonthreatening attention to men's appearance? Why should I find comments and ogling from strangers as complimentary? It's a crazy idea! And exactly why men don't get this.

.

I will add, there is something outside the realm of complimented/fearful here. I think indignant might come into play for me. There is also an ick factor, when strangers feel too comfortable to act (comment, leer, etc.), especially when it's appearance based.

I am very sorry for the women on this thread, Chi and Mamapinky, who have suffered sexual abuse. What they were subjected to is criminal and goes against the most basic tenets of human decency. Chi and Mampinky, your willingness to share such a painful part of yourselves is very generous. Shedding light on such horror helps make us all more aware of what happens around us and hopefully this awareness can lead to some good for some child who suffers.

However, I am puzzled by this thread's treatment of men in general. Most men are not the enemy- they are our sons, husbands, brother and fathers. And we as women and mothers would do well to remember that we have a big responsibility in how we, along with our husbands, bring up our sons.

We live in 2017. It has been half a century since feminism became a mainstream concept. If there are Neanderthal men in our midst, let's not forget they had parents who could have brought them up differently and do our best to end this cycle of disrespect.

Please note, my remark about Neanderthal men refers only to those who are guilty of garden variety misdemeanors, like leering or making catcalls- not abuse, rape or assault. Those folks had parents too, but whatever is wrong with them is beyond my ability to comprehend.

Yes, there is a lot of abuse going on. However, expecting all men to be suspect because a percentage of them are bad actors is prejudicial. Same as painting any other group with a broad brush.

I make jokes or have other chit chat with random strangers of both sexes encountered while shopping etc. all of the time. Most are amused or otherwise accessible, a few are standoffish. A world where unaccompanied women are never to be spoken to is not my world.

Of course, I'm not whistling at them or calling out "Nice tits!".

Are people lumping all men together as enemies or threats? That's not how I'm reading this thread, though several people seem to think that. My comments about men are about the very small subset who treat women in a way that makes them feel threatened. Whether it's catcalls or leering or following someone or something worse.

There is so much exaggeration in this thread that we are living in fear and can't interact with a man without assuming he will harm us. That's not true. I talk to men every day and very rarely feel threatened. But sometimes I do, and I listen to that feeling and try to get out of the situation.

It's frustrating to try to discuss these issues and be dismissed as a case of female hysteria and paranoia.

All men do not do this to women. These are the men that find it confusing, because they would not do it.

I personally find it odd when women wear revealing or tight clothing then at the same time do not want to be looked at. So what do you want? When I dress up in tight jeans I dont mind if people look at my butt, it is kind of expected.

Those that dress normal and are getting cat calls are unfortunately being exposed to low life scum of the earth. Really is not much we can do about that, they will always be scum.

And yes you do have to arm yourself with pepper spray, etc when being around the low life scum and dark alleys. You are right you 'should' be safe wherever you go, but unfortunately that is not the case.

I'm sorry but paying someone a compliment - even a complete stranger in an elevator - should in no way be considered an intimidating action or sexual harrassment. And I'd have to wonder at the mentality of someone who thinks it is. I have received and made many such compliments and it is NO different than two females together and one complimenting the other on her shoes or her outfit. Or a new haircut!! And I have no issue with the occasional catcall or wolf whistle either, as long as it is not accompanied by any derrogatory or offensive remarks. My dad always used to whistle at both my mom and I when we were dressed up to go out and say something like "looking good" or "don't you look nice"!! And he was a very old school British gentleman. These things are not always sexual in their overtones.

I worked for many years in a male dominated profession (still do but a much different one) but never felt like I was being harrassed in any manner by anyone. But then I have never been short on self confidence and was damn good at my job and so I was treated as an equal coworker, not just a sexual being. I can't imagine that this is so unusual or that the men I have encountered during my career and with my business dealings are that unique.

"Do you go around and pay nonthreatening attention to men's appearance?"

Sure, why not. Most of us live our lives not as if we were sitting on a bomb about to go off. If you're threatened by a friendly smile or innocent comment, I'm very sorry for you. When I smile at a stranger just to be friendly, I almost always get a smile in return. Go ahead, rob, you've encountered infinitely more people than I have and because of that I'm wrong. Baloney, most people aren't like you in this sense and how others in this thread describe as their attitudes.

"Why should I find comments and ogling from strangers as complimentary?"

Compliments are pleasant to receive. Sorry if you don't think so. Yes, there can be a creepy or ick factor when a stranger or even person you know is too personal. That's not a strictly female experience but it's no cause for fear. It's a line that's simple to avoid crossing. If someone is creepy, they're creepy. That's no reason to form a dislike for or attitude about all comments.

Rita is more eloquent than I am in describing normal, everyday conduct and expectations. She gets it. Ditto for gardengal. Most of you don't.

Normal, everyday contact is NOT what is being discused. Not every interaction, and not every man. I get it, I don't agree with your exaggeration, characterizations, and worst of all, dismissal towards those of us who deal with this issue.

It's frustrating to try to discuss these issues and be dismissed as a case of female hysteria and paranoia.

Amen

Yeah, I don't know why people are spinning every day occurrences into what's being discussed. If someone says I look nice, I smile and say thank you. If someone says I look nice, while slowly staring at my body in a way that makes me uncomfortable, I don't like it and I don't feel complimented. There's a big, big difference.

I'm sorry but paying someone a compliment - even a complete stranger in an elevator - should in no way be considered an intimidating action or sexual harrassment.

I disagree. A compliment -- even a complete stranger in an elevator -- is not necessarily intimidating, but it can be.

I think part of what's missing in this discussion is the whole communications package:

Dr. Albert Mehrabian, author of Silent Messages, conducted several studies on nonverbal communication. He found that 7% of any message is conveyed through words, 38% through certain vocal elements, and 55% through nonverbal elements (facial expressions, gestures, posture, etc).

"Nice jeans," by itself does not connote intimidation one way or the other. But the facial expressions, how close they are standing to you, the intonation of the expression, body language, etc. can point to a friendly interaction or a potentially dangerous one. That's why to argue whether the words alone are intimidation is not particularly helpful.

My dad always used to whistle at both my mom and I when we were dressed up to go out and say something like "looking good" or "don't you look nice"!! And he was a very old school British gentleman. These things are not always sexual in their overtones.

Intimidation or harassment doesn't always have to be sexual in overtone either. But it doesn't make it any less inappropriate.

The fact that your father whistled at you was truly a non-intimidating comment as he clearly loved you and wasn't about to hurt you (though some here have already testified that even that is not necessarily the case.) He was in fact complimenting you as he knew you and treated you like the loved family member that you are, with respect. Same if a friend compliments you...they know you and care about you and respect you.

That is different from a stranger on the street calling you out. They don't know you, they don't care about you, they are NOT complimenting you. Rather they are objectifying you and expressing their sense of power and ownership over you as you are just a piece of meat to be treated as they see fit without regard for you or your feelings...or if they think of your feelings at all, it's to scare and intimidate you to prove their power over you.

And I have no issue with the occasional catcall or wolf whistle either, as long as it is not accompanied by any derrogatory [sic] or offensive remarks.

Can you at least allow that while you may not have a problem, others do? You say you don't want to hear any offensive remarks, but can you understand that maybe a "nice ass" or "how about a little sugar, sweetcakes" comment is not offensive to you, it might be to someone else? On other threads we've had discussions about what's offensive, and I'm always stunned that some get upset over words like "hate", "stupid", "sucks", "freaking" when they don't offend me at all. But I'll allow that some could take offense and respect that.

All I'm suggesting here is that if a man truly respects a woman then he can refrain from treating her in a way that is disrespectful. Especially if she's a stranger. It's not like men NEED to catcall or intimidate. It's not like they can't help themselves.

Wow, what a diverse group freaking group that we are! I have NEVER appreciated catcalls, they have always felt threatening to me.

Elmer J Fudd, please ask the women in your life how they feel about this statement:

"women worry about being raped and attacked every single day and it dictates their actions in small incremental ways men cannot even imagine. So I dare Elmer J. Fudd ask women in your life what steps they take to ensure their safety."

I'm sure you're expressing your own perspectives sincerely but this isn't prevalent with the women I know. Maybe I just know a lot of strong and self-confident women? I'm open to hearing more but my experience has been that most women don't lead such paranoid existences. I'm sorry for anyone whose previous experiences, community environment or personal feelings lead them to this.

Women don't have to be weak or insecure to feel threatened by ill-acting males. Not all males behave this way, but most women can spot them and we do feel threatened. How dare you even insinuate that we shouldn't listen to that tiny voice that calls out the alarm. Unfortunately, you don't take your vagina with you wherever you go or you might start to understand what we mean. You have no dog in this fight and you should butt out for once. You don't know what the heck you're talking about in this instance.