thank you!!! so it's not me it's them?!! lol

(I remind myself now some very excited animal, but the one you know that doesn't amaze with its wit..say, a guinea pig?)

"portmanteau" was a definite bonus I must say.

I think of greige as more of a grisaille type of color--at least more closely associated with typical grisaille.

Taupe to me definitely has red in it. A genuine taupe is brown because it's a mole. And to me if you took the color of the average taupe (which was the only thing it originally meant until the 19th c. sometime)...if you took that sort of brown and mixed it with white in increasing amounts, I think you'd end up with something pinkish. Is "animal" in the title because taupe is an animal?, or is that a coincidence.

I don't think as I see it if you kept tinting greige with more and more white you'd end up with going through a bandaid color stage, I think you'd end up going through a more yellowish stage.

However, I see colors that I would identify as taupe called greige, and I don't know if it that really is greige or someone is calling it greige just because that is a trendier name.

I actually do not use any words like this when I describe colors, nor do I use food or wine or other things to describe colors. I tend to say an identified color, whether it's light, medium or dark, and what other colors I see in it. I also like to use paint colors that are identified by numbers. The problem with that is that I can remember that my very first apartment was painted Unbleached Muslin by Martin Senour,from 22 years ago and I can't remember the paint color I just used in my bedroom because it is Fine Paints of Europe NCS-__ _ _ _ something or other.

The good thing is that this does not raise any expectations of what it looks like because of a name. I know I'm repeating myself but I had a patient who was fixated on a cabinet stain color known is Merlot, which in that line was a horrible red stain and then she kept saying that she thought it was too red. But she liked the wine, so she couldn't let go of the color even though she didn't like it.

And who would think that colors called Victorian Mauve and Wet Concrete or Wet Cement would be separated by one thing on the same strip?

( the kindest mole I could find..he isn't what I had in mind..:)

on pics they seem very true brown I must say. Or grey like this one.

I thought of taupe being more hedgehog color..or maybe greige is more like hedgehog? or maybe a sparrow?

but no, I knew that "taupe" means "mole". yet I somehow never thought to connect it straight to the animal in question.

(The "animal" in the title because of "My family and other animals", the book I used to love so much I even wrote the letter to the author(I read several of his)..with a slight hope he'll invite me to see his famous Zoo..but then I chickened out and never sent the letter. I was maybe 10 or 12? don't remember.)

I think also that if you add white to greige you'll get to something greenish rather than pinkish.

I'm influenced by color names as well so I try to distance myself from it a bit, when it's in my power. But numbers wouldn't stay with me at all. Then I never tried for real. It'd be hard, because numbers have colors of their own, to me. But then letters have too. To letters, I an used though. Numbers would throw me off. If I assigned my own numbers, knowing their colors in my mind-then it might work. But it would work for me only. I wouldn't be able to pass that information to nobody else.

This is what shows up with European Moles, so maybe they are browner?

yes, I saw them. They're brown as bears. Just look more helpless..:)

Led me to think that with numbers actually one can coin the name of a color very precisely..but only for himself. Combinations of letters and numbers-even better, probably.

I think I anchored on my understanding of taupe from fashion during my teen years (the 1980s). If bought a taupe shoe, it was halfway between gray and beige. No noticeable purple/pink/red undertones. Not a "dark grayish brown". Not the color of any of the moles posted so far. Pretty much the color we now call greige.

But to me grey and beige often purple or pink undertones themselves.

That's why I don't like these made up colors. Since there are no consistent points of reference, it's sort of like this:

I used to think paint was easy to pick out. Then I ran into a room with a challenging light situation and after a year and painting 3 times, I think I am close to the solution- at least accessing a few that look like they will work. I am finally feeling hopeful that there might be a solution after this exhausting and frustrating search! I've done a ton of reading, used an online color consultant, and have spent hundreds of dollars for sample cans. I have a big pile of color boards. Quite a few paint stores know me - probably as the crazy paint lady!

Like you names can influence me but I try not to. Ben Moore Lambskin - ewwww! We had to use the number. Fortunately the color didn't work.

Taupe - I've seen some that look pink and some look green.

i laugh when I read comments about a certain color not having any noticeable undertone. Some situations seem to bring out those and can make you crazy.

What comes to my mind with taupe and greige is that the taupes of yesteryear seemed to have more variables in that they were a tic warmer and some a tic darker.

This is how I think of the difference. I think this is one of those questions that will have never ending opinions.

Brown is not a primary or secondary color. It is a mixture of one primary color with it's complement, and it's complement is a secondary color, so brown is made up of three primary colors. There's no way that it is not influenced more by one of the three primary colors unless they are all 33.33% of the brown. And this would be a muddy greyish brown

And when you start tinting this with white you will tend to get grey tints...

I though greige was another way of spelling grège. Anyway, that's what it sounds like to me. I never thought of it as a combination of gray and beige, even though it probably is. If you do an image search for grège, you will see what I mean - because of the accent mark on the "e" I cannot link to that.

You can also make brown by adding black (not a primary color) to orange, a secondary color. I was taught in art class that brown is a dark, low intensity orange.

We used the Pantone color wheel.

Funny the reference to fashion in the 80s and the color taupe- now that I think of it- I recall going round and round in circles with my mother over what was taupe and what was beige or tan back then. It was all very clear to her- not so much to me.

Greige to me is a gray beige, like the name says- and that is a meaningless color to me. I can't think of greige as a grisaille, because grisaille is a light, foggy gray- no beige- which brings us to yes- the name affects my perception of the color.

As for Maria and her undertones. I don't have the perception or the vocabulary for her system. I most certainly know what works together and what does not- I just can't explain it and frankly I am gobsmacked when I hear her do it. I invariably agree with what she says works together and what does not- and I would never make the mistakes she mentions- but could I tell you the culprit was the pinky beige? No way.

Lars, What is grege, with the accent grave on the first e?

Yes, brown made that way tinted out to white will go through a peach range.

grège, according to French Wikipedia, "c'est un beige clair tirant sur le gris" (is a light beige pulling gray). Also described as an oatmeal color.

So that is the same as greige, no? And I thought greige was made up. Thank you, cawaps for looking it up for me (silly I don't so that myself. Typing without thinking.)

(I'm not sure what a tan is either. Not sure of anything anymore. Lol. greige being same as oatmeal did me in I think..)

There are 11 basic color names that are considered universal. (Source: Basic Color Terms Universality and Evolution by Brent Berlin and Paul Kay. )

Words like taupe, greige, tan, beige, khaki, etc. are meaningless because they mean something different to everyone.

"Undertone (of a chromatic pigment). Color of a thin layer of the pigment incorporated in a vehicle and drawn down on white paper, or color of a tint of the pigment, sometimes as viewed by transmitted light; same as print tone." (Source: Color in Business, Science, and Industry, Third Edition, by Deanne B. Judd and Gunter Wyszecki.)

In other words, undertones are about density; undertones are
revealed when the paint is spread in a thin layer so you can see the surface
below. What makes an undertone an undertone is light travels through the thin
layer of paint, hits the surface below and bounces back up creating a unique
color experience for your eyeballs.

Undertone is an important concept when applied correctly because it explains the visual sensation that happens when light travels through a layer of color and bounces back up off the substrate - and we need a way to explain that when it happens. If the color is opaque then the visual sensation is markedly different. For example, architectural paints are applied in an even, opaque film thickness - no layers. No layers, no varied density, no undertones.

Alternatively, many use the word undertone descriptively in an effort to communicate to others their visual experience of a color. So, we have the technical definition of undertone and we have the experiential use of the word. It's important to not confuse the two. Because...

Thank you so much for that explanation, Lori. This makes a lot more sense to me.

Thank you so much Lori..fascinating as ever. What's a "vehicle" in that context?

(I have many more questions, decided to start with the most embarrassing lol)

Vehicle like paint,dye or ink.

PS It was very interesting to read on the grege wiki that the word is not a mash-up of grey and beige and the word comes from the Italian (greggia) for unprocessed silk. Here is the picture illustrating the color/origin from the wiki.

the word is not a mash-up of grey and beige

Greige is kind of in the same creative compound color words category as bleen (blue + green) and grue (green + blue) just not as effective because of the ambiguity of the word beige.

Forgive me if it's been said above, but I skipped down for a quick comment.

FWIW, I believe there are literally millions of names for colors. As a BFA who also studied commercial & graphic art, I can tell you it's impossible to find one 'true' shade to represent almost any named color.

Most color names, outside of the primary, secondary & tertiary names, are basically marketing.

And there are different categories of color itself - 1 is pigments: the physical materials that are put into paints, dyes & cosmetics, etc. & then there are the colors of the light spectrum: what we see in a rainbow, for instance. Think about how the same color can look very different outside or inside, for instance, or under fluorescent vs. incandescent lights.

& yes - I also cringe a little @ the use of the term 'undertone' when it's used to mean somebody senses a hint of another color. It's such a vague & pretty meaningless term. That "undertone" could be coming from a reflection of surroundings on the surface being viewed.

That "undertone" could be coming from a reflection of surroundings on the surface being viewed.

Good point. The light, reflection, and simultaneous contrast should be considered. Context is everything when it comes to color.

yes, I understand all that, and I agree of course. I guess I just feel very deeply that distance between what I see and how I say what I see..and I strive to narrow it somehow to be able to transfer the thought

especially when people can be really passionate about colors. They can say "I hate color X!" and I find it hard to argue with passion..:) But is color X really color X? maybe it's color X12345 for all I know?

(I'm passionate about colors too..I'm just generally passionate..))

or maybe it's okay to just know some things will be always interpretation by many since they're somewhat abstract

say, neutral. To me everything that can be a vast background to other things under normal circumstances (not a big fire of London..) can be actually neutral

but i think most people mean something else by it

what is meant by "neutral", usually..and why?

I guess I just feel very deeply that distance between what I see and how I say what I see..and I strive to narrow it somehow to be able to transfer the thought.

Said aprineverends and every color scientist and pioneer of color systems that has ever lived starting with Aristotle. :)

That's essentially the definition of colorimetry. Colorimetry is the science and
technology used to quantify and describe how humans see and experience
color.

what is meant by "neutral", usually..and why?

Depends on who you ask.

Technical - Like undertone, neutral has a technical definition too. A true neutral is achromatic gray, white and black.

Why - As soon as any degree of hue is detected (visually or measured) then it's a chromatic gray. As more hue is discerned, it's muted. Chromatic Grays and Muted colors are Near Neutrals.. . . because they are literally nearer to a true neutral.

Color Mixing Theory - the color mixing approach to neutral is completely divorced from human color perception. Instead, neutral is defined by the color formula and the balance of tints in the mixture.

Why - The theory is any color can be a neutral if there are equal amounts of each tint in the formula. This is the most useless definition of neutral of all because individual tints affect and change each other as they're blended to create a single color; the characteristics of the individual tints and the base in which they're mixed are blended away into oblivion and you're left with a final result - a single color. A single color with a definitive wavelength, frequency, fingerprint, DNA.

So, when you end up with a single, final result that can be efficiently assessed by the 3 dimensions of human color perception, hue/value/chroma, why bother with the minor points of chemistry? Unless your job is to make/mix the color, there's absolutely no reason to get wrapped up in the minutia of tints and bases.

Experiential - some people use the word neutral much like they use the word undertone; a big umbrella to cover a wide range of color, pattern and texture perception.

Why - Using neutral and undertone to articulate a visual experience is the best some people can do. With color in particular, the more you know how it works, the more clearly you're able to communicate what you see.

For example, once you understand that every color (including whites, muted colors, and chromatic grays) belongs to a hue family, you don't have to default to abstract notions of neutral and undertones. Instead you have a refined vocabulary of color terms to pull from so you can communicate color clearly.

Ha! I remember when I was very young, being struck by the thought that I could not know whether what I saw & called blue - or green - or red, etc., might not be what another person saw & called that same color name, and wondering how it would ever be possible to ever know...

Lori that was a wonderful answer thank you. making much much more sense but not stopping you from thinking further, at the same time. These are the best, in my opinion.

"the color mixing approach to neutral is completely divorced from human color perception"-understood it when working on painting/finding colors. I knew then that's how it is and still boggles my mind. Mostly, how people figured that out. but then they figured out so many things and some of these, is still a mystery how.

carol, you made me very happy since you reminded me: I love this state of mind of being young..:) sometimes I feel so old, like ancient..like timeless lol

(no middle ground for me, unfortunately))

I was interested to hear the term used here, since the only way I was familiar with it was from 18th century European export Chinese porcelain where this little cup and saucer are described as "en grisaille".

Mostly, how people figured that out. but then they figured out so many things and some of these, is still a mystery how.

For every paint color there are on average 20 different formulations, 20 different combinations of colorants, that will result in the same color. "Same" in terms of hue, value, chroma and LRV. From a data perspective, the resultant colors may vary, but the difference is so negligible it cannot be detected by visual assessment - only numerically. If any difference could be detected visually, then it wouldn't qualify as a "match", that's just common sense.

For every combination of colorants, for every formula there is one target for matching and that is the original spectral data (color DNA) from which the paint chip - and everything else to do with the color - is produced.

Every sample, quart, gallon that's mixed has the same target - match the color DNA. So, all the b.s. about paint chips not being useful or somehow inaccurate because they are ink on paper and not real paint is yet another fallacy about color born in the mediocrity of blogosphere.

This is what always boggled my mind - and I would imagine any critical thinker's mind --- The paint one buys to paint a sample board is qualified as a match by comparing it to a paint chip to check for accuracy. A paint chip.

Yet.... no matter the substrate it's applied to, it's the paint sample that is glorified as a truer representation of the color. Not the paint chip that was used to qualify the paint sample as accurate to begin with.

Think about that for a minute. :-D