There is no faucet in this photo- he did fix that at least!

Mrs. S- thanks for responding. Any insight into my questions?

Sorry, I don't know about the technicalities. I do know that you are NOT crazy, however. It doesn't sound to me as if either person is qualified to do a job like this. I am looking forward to some experts chiming in to tell you how it should be. In the meantime, you can search through Gardenweb for threads about tile and waterproofing and showers, and see lots of terrible jobs that have to be completely ripped out.

Fire this $1.98 hack. You're gonna have to pay someone real. And you're gonna have to beg for forgiveness from the folks at the permitting office so you won't get fined for proceeding without a permit.

I don't understand how you reached this point then became concurned about code enforcement but I do have some thoughts on the project. I have torn into dozens of tub inclosures that had 5/8ths green and 1/2"standard drywall under tile without moisture barrier of any kind. If grout and caulk had been maintained,the drywall was intact. I replaced a faucet recently in a 40 year old house that had 2 layers of 1/4tr" drywall. There was damage around spout and handles but tile was still in place and wall framing wasn't rotted. Those were exceptions but show that water doesn't soak between tile at grout joints as some would have us believe. The purple stuff is more durable than what I just spoke of. Cement board is more than adequate but there's no harm in installing plastic or other barrier between board and wall frame. ,I don't think anyone is likely to show up and take issue with code compliance regardless what you do. If your drywall is plumb and square,1/4tr or 1/2" cement board bedded in modified thinset and nailed will last a long time if properly tiled. That will not set tile too far out on tub. It will actually expose more tub than had tub been fastened to studs and 5/8" cement board overhung flange. If you like,some type barrier can be installed behind cement board. As for wherether you are crazy. No but I suggest you write a scope of work for projects in the future.

Sophie- no need to fire, already quit! Looking for direction so I know what to confirm with the next hire.

Klem1- thank you so much for your insights. I did ensure code compliance with the design (layout, electric, ventilation) but this caught me off guard. I did not expect an "experienced" installer to come up with something this...creative. I did tell him upfront that waterproofing and moisture is a big concern for this project, since it's a basement bathroom (lots of humidity) and that I was willing to pay extra for materials and labor to use high quality measures.

I am less concerned with this passing an inspection than I am with keeping my house from rotting. I threw out the "compliance" stuff in my last conversation with the guy because it was getting into a "I think you're crazy" / "I think YOU'RE crazy" back and forth...code is more standardized. I'd like something to go on when this guy asks for his check, and when I'm evaluating the next guys plan of action

that aside, am I write in seeing you agree with the plan to install a vapor barrier on top of the existing drywall,then cement board, then tile?

Thanks a million.

I would post this in the bathroom forum here on GardenWeb but I am afraid pretty much all you have there is not going to be acceptable as is and will need to gutted and started all over. If he penetrated the flange that may need to be replaced now as well since this will be a shower as well as a tub.

Gut. It. NO to putting anything over any of that. Remove the tub. Remove the drywall. Inspect the plumbing and framing.

Start over.

Man put in a vent fan while you're at it.

There is a vent on the opposite wall (not pictured) in addition to the window. But its always a bit humid in the basement (we run a dehumidifier constantly- it has its own drain so we don't have to think about it).

Obviously I wish this was done differently from the start. The question is, do I have to rip everything out to make it functional? Sophie and millworkman, thank you for weighing in- can you explain why don't you think cement board over the existing mess will work? It's not tidy, but from a waterproofing perspective is it any worse than cement board on studs? (Vapor barrier behind cement board in both cases of course).

If anyone can find me codes for any of this I would be eternally grateful, really think I'll need the ammunition when the handyman sends me his bill.

Well, you have a screw that makes a path from the front of the flange to the wall behind, so that will always undermine your waterproofing, even if it's ground down and tiled over...

I didn’t even realize this is a shower install get it ripped out get a new tub with no holes in the tile flange and start over , waterproofing IMO is a huge deal no matter where the shower is installed .

Hypothetically if you were to put tile over cement board you would have 1/2" drywall, 1/2" cement board, then tile. This would be 1-1/4" to 1-3/8" minimum overall and sticking out way past the tub. And as acm notes, you cannot properly waterproof with all the holes realistically. Complete. Do. Over.

No you are not crazy! This is awful. Do an image search on tile installation or for the gold standard buy the Tile Council of North America's Handbook.

Before you rip out the tub and replace it call the manufacturer and explain what happened. They may have seen this before and have some way to fix it.

Summit Studio Architects- thank you for the mental health check :) and good advice about contacting the manufacturer- the tub was not expensive (as tubs go) but it was special order and I'm not eager to wait another 2+ weeks for a new one, so I've been mulling over ways to patch the holes (bondo and/or enamel chip repair kit? I'd have to look into it).

Millworkman- since the drywall is currently behind the tub flange (ugh), the only things sticking out would be the cement board (could do 1/4"?) and the tile, which wouldn't be terrible.

ACM (and anyone else), what do you think about patching the holes he drilled in the flange? It wouldn't matter what it looks like since it's covered by tile. Looking to save time (and hey, a few hundred dollars too) by keeping the tub somehow. But if everyone is in agreement that this is not salvageable then I'll bite the bullet.

"since the drywall is currently behind the tub flange (ugh)"

In my opinion, any more dollars is good after bad. Suck it up to experience and move on properly. Easy for me to say as it is not my money but sometimes you need to know when to say when.........................

Call a plumber. They will know the codes, and can figure it out. Do NOT try and fix it yourself.

Found this video. Hope it helps answer some of your concerns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psf9cnYoVts

"If he penetrated the flange that may need to be replaced now as well since this will be a shower as well as a tub." "Well, you have a screw that makes a path from the front of the flange to the wall behind, so that will always undermine your waterproofing, even if it's ground down and tiled over..." "get a new tub with no holes in the tile flange and start over " "And as acm notes, you cannot properly waterproof with all the holes realistically. Complete. Do. Over."

Problems are similar to eating elephants,better done one bite at a time rather than cramming it down whole. Lets start with the holes in flange. Most iron/steel tubs I've seen had holes in the flange from the factory or instructions on drilling some in fiberglass. (A) Are we certain holes were drilled or if screws were run through factory holes? (B) If holes were drilled,why would those ruin the tub unless filled? (C) Are you all suggesting factory holes should be filled when installing tubs? I'm not saying anyone is wrong in recommending total do over,just trying to understand why the holes are a problem. People reading this might be thinking of installing a tub and should understand why holes in the tub flange is such a bad thing.

Klem1- this is a steel tub, and there were definitely no holes when I bought it. If you zoom in on the picture I uploaded , you can see that drilling through the flange left big chips in the finish. I was concerned about rust, as well as the protruding screw heads directing water towards the wall. I though fixing the holes might prevent those issues?

Express wholesale cabinets- thanks for taking the time to look up that video! He really goes into depth. Wish the install had gone that way from the start. But the more I think about it, the less I'm seeing a reason to rip out the existing work. I should be able to build a new layer on top (plastic drape, then cement board). And by "I should" I mean I should direct someone else to do so since I work full time and have toddlers.

Julie B- haven't called in a plumber, but the licensed contractor I DID call (to replace the previous guy) seemed to think the current setup is fine. So now I'm feeling suspicious of everyone except strangers on the internet. Thanks friends :)

Tub flange installed over the drywall leads me to believe a hack job klem, but you very well may be correct about the factory holes. So start over maybe saving the tub may be the correct angle to attck this.

Hello, Kayled , Thank you for the thank you. Glad to help:)

I purchased a Dreamline shower pan and surround that was rated for installation against any type of drywall. The pan was installed directly against the studs (no drywall installed yet). The pan had a lip on it (like your bathtub), and cement board was installed down the wall to about 1/8" from the edge of the flange. The surround came as one solid piece for each wall, and it was glued to the drywall. There was also a corner flange. which was sealed in place and secured with screws.

If you are willing to have a three-piece enclosure (not a tiled wall), you may be able to use a similar solution to finishing off the shower walls. http://www.bathauthority.com/tub-back-wall-qwall.html

Bruce

"Klem1- this is a steel tub, and there were definitely no holes when I bought it." Ah-haa,as suspected,we can learn from the facts. In your first post you said " i bought a standard tub with a front apron and a flange on three sides- seemed like a straightforward install" Then later you said " the tub was not expensive (as tubs go) but it was special order" When something is special ordered you must give the manufacture ALL of your requirments. In this case you were supposed to tell them WHERE you want the holes based on where studs are located. Otherwise the manufacture assume's you have it covered and doesn't specify hole spacing for guys on the line. I'm not beating on you,just pointing out that details matter and that's why I recommend written scope of work. Find comfort in knowing your problem is small (inexpensive) compared to those that hire architects to desighn custom homes and realize after it's built that important details were overlooked. It's very common to see people increasing cost 150% by having cabinets custom built when stock cabinets would work by simply using a filler here and there. At any rate,I agree with trying to salvage what you have and moving forward as apposed to demoing and starting over.

If tub is fastened to the wall (usually is) then put your waterproofing overtop the fasteners...? I dont see the issue here.

I wouldnt buy a new tub.

Get your faucet and shower head figured out. Waterproof with the redguard, do the tile, caulk plane changes and be done with it.

Handyman isnt very handy if he doesnt waterproof a shower before tiling, IMO. Your better off he left. Plenty of incompetents out there.

Bruce in Northern Virginia- we did consider a tub surround, but the tub surround that is fit for our tub is

Klem1- the tub came with instructions (which I read, and which I passed on to our handyman at the beginning of the project) which state to attach it to the stud by "overlapping" the flange with flat head screws, not by drilling through it. I had the tub before the space was framed. It's an alcove tub available at many Home Depots, but not at my local one, hence the "special order." In fact, because a lot of online reviews said the tub arrived cracked, I ordered three of them to the store and kept the best one- the one with no chips or cracks on the flange (yep, that flange which he proceeded to drill through, cracking the finish.)

Most recent contractor consult agreed with hanging plastic over the drywall, then attaching cement board. No RedGard over the cement board. I found some tiles that should work okay to cover the transition.

New question for anyone still reading: this is a basement bathroom, and as you can see the shower head is very close to the ceiling. Hadn't planned on tiling the ceiling, but now I'm thinking of doing at least a coat of RedGard under the semigloss paint I'm using...thoughts?

"Hadn't planned on tiling the ceiling, but now I'm thinking of doing at least a coat of RedGard under the semigloss paint I'm using...thoughts?"

This is easy to answer. Redgard is a brand name,not one specific product. That being the case,read the label to make sure you have the right product. Necessary to use it under the paint? Probably not. Is it an added layer of insurance? Sure

The only crazy thing here is not tearing out that drywall and doing it right. You’re interviewing s bunch of hacks. You do not put cement board over drywall under any circumstances. That is just boneheaded and completely wrong. It will create a whole host of issues.

It will create a whole host of issues.

Besides the walls being thicker, those issues would be?

Redgard is a brand name,not one specific product.

One Redgard is a waterproofing membrane material made by Custom Building Products. Typically it would be applied over the substrate. I don't believe it's meant to be used under paint.

It seems to me that we're making this "fix" a lot more complicated than it needs to be, if we're not going to replace the tub. Cut the drywall at the top of the flange and pull about 2' above. Clean up any damage damage from the screws and hit it with little primer/paint. Use a long tapered shim and rehang the drywall so that it sits on top of the flange (over that distance the slight angle won't be noticed). Apply a waterproofing membrane. Caulk the gap between the tub apron and the drywall. Tile. Caulk. Will it be perfect, no. Will it give you many years of service, yes.

Next time, hire someone more skilled.

If you have any cats, make sure to always know where they are if you get another guy like the handyman who started this mess. As in make sure none are stuck inside the darn wall. How do I know? Because when I had a tile surround put into the bathroom of my previous home my cat ended up needing a rescue and cement board removal was required. If he walks off the job because you want things done to code and to him that's just "crazy talk"? Yeah that's the kind of guy who would accidentally seal a cat inside there. :P If he stayed on that is. You're lucky he's gone and you can start the sort of new project at the beginning with someone who knows what the heck he's doing and does things to code!

What sophie is talking about with concrete board over drywall is that concrete board absorbs water and drys out. If it is sandwiched next to drywall, if the board gets wet it will transfer to the drywall and not be able to dry out.

Waterproofing is the more critical element in the grand scheme.

They prefer concrete board for tile because it is the same material as the thinset and expands and contracts similarly, resulting in less chance for cracks.

The other reason for using concrete board is that it does not deteriorate if it does happen to get wet, it drys out at some point and is fine.

Mikekaiser elbows in and comes replete with horrible advice. Hooz, more misinformation added hourly

You want to make a mold sandwich? Yeah, that's nuts. Start over.

It is inadvisable to paint over red guard.

Plastic and cement board over drywall is another baaad hack.

Thank you for everyone's advice and input. We went with plastic sheet over the purple drywall (draping over the flange) and then cement board. The tile isn't perfect but no one but me can see any issues. I found a tiling solution to work around the lip created by adding another layer of material, so it doesn't look odd even when the shower curtain isn't distracting from it.

For future problem solvers who might stumble on this thread, GreenDesigns where do you see the mold sandwich? Between the purple and the plastic? Purple is only water resistant, not water tight, and it's mold resistant as well...

Milly Rey, is it only inadvisable to paint over RedGard because it will give you a lumpy finish? On a ceiling in a shower I don't really care about that. More concerned with steam/splashing getting through. Decided it was overkill though, didn't go through with it in the end.

Vith, the cement board isn't sandwiched next to the drywall- it's next to plastic, the same as if it had been attached to the studs. You wouldn't say it was sandwiched next to wood in that case because there's a barrier.

Thanks again all, this community is great!

plastic over purple is a guaranteed mess at some point. when sandwhiching plastic and a non vapor permeable drywall you invite condensation especially in a warm shower or fluxuating temps of an exterior wall .

You accepted a cheap hack fix and thats great but lets call a spade a spade for others reading

Sophie is spot on, you should have taken her advice.

Some people just can’t be helped. They only want to answer shop. There is a lot of that on these forums. People who have some weird internal bias against learning from anyone else’s mistakes but their own. Or, who have some weird internal wiring that doesn’t even let them learn from their own mistakes.

No one seems to understand sunk costs are not coming back, no matter the amount of kludging attempted in to salvage them. The hole gets deeper and deeper. The smart thing is to stop digging.

thatsmuchbetter, thanks for explaining where you anticipate the problem. Still unclear though- purple (or green) drywall is not recommended for use in wet areas specifically because it is NOT impermeable. Moisture resistant, but not moisture proof. So moisture (assuming it makes its way somehow behind the plastic or through the purple...not sure how but plan for disasters!) wouldn't be locked between two membranes. Am I missing something?

K.O.H. Sophie didn't really expand on her comment that is was "boneheaded and would create a host of issues"...I see you agree, but can you tell me what you think the issues might be?

again, this is really for future readers. Our project is completed, there are two ventilation sources in the bathroom, and this is an infrequently used basement guest bathroom where I anticipate more baths (we have lots of guests with kids/babies) than showers. Obviously I Wish it had been done differently from the start but I haven't heard anything here that solidly points to an issue with the solution we used. Our solution was cheap, quick, saved waste, and aesthetically basically unnoticeable.

Sophie, happy to learn! But it's hard to learn if you don't explain. And obviously I'm continuing this conversation so that others can learn from it as well. But you're not being much of a teacher here, more of a name-caller. What are the issues that you anticipate this boneheaded, answer-shopping kludge is going to experience?

For future project reference. I am not speaking for Sophie or anyone else, this is my opinion only. Sophie told you the same day of your post to get rid of the handyman and hire a pro. Good advice. A good qualified and experienced plumber, contractor or handyman would have never installed it that way. They would have done it the way we the ones with numerous jobs and years of experience have done. Again good advice. Others have thrown in their advice and it does not collaborate with our practice and proven technique therefore she says 'Stop Digging". Again good advice. You decided to do it your way and I wish you all the best and I don't want to spend much more time explaining the correct procedure nor what is wrong with your project. Lot of the advice given on Houzz is meant well and appreciated but did you notice that all advice by the Pro's was similar in all cases. That's because we've done this thousands of times and our advice is based on experience ad acquired knowledge. It has always been easier for to explain why we went the extra mile to do it right then explain why we did this different. One more thing for those who are about to endeavor in a project. Quality and craftsmanship is always going to be less expensive in the long run. I'm not saying you have to spend a ton of money to get it done right you just need to do it right. All the best and good luck on your next project.

K.O.H., thanks for the measured and thoughtful reply. I think the struggle for homeowners that the appellation "pro" is unfortunately not enough to go on these days. The original work was done by a licensed contractor. I had two other very experienced contractors who came highly recommended look at the work that the first guy abandoned- the first consultant said it was totally fine, the second said a vapor barrier on top would work. The licensed plumber who looked everything over thought the work seemed fine, from a plumbing perspective. Who, exactly, is a "pro"? I could label myself a pro on Houzz with no problem, doesn't make me an expert.

We don't live in an era anymore where you have to just trust the pros, hand over your money and stay away until the project is done. Even experienced professionals are not always up on industry standards. There are so many stories on this site of people who hired professionals and got terrible results. The more information that is out there, the more homeowners are able to advocate for good work.

So, K.O.H., you said you don't want to spend much more time explaining what was wrong with the fix but you haven't actually spent ANY time doing so. Thatsmuchbetter mentioned one issue but hasn't addressed my question about whether his issue makes sense. So, share the knowledge! What's wrong with the plan B?

I gave you a seed . Start with climate zone, internal vs exterior wall assemblies/cavities site specific conditions of your build and proper insulation and vapor barriers VS moisture barriers and water proofing dig deeper into inviting the transfer of condensation into the unbreathable sandwhich and mix with drywall . Then think of how long it may be before you see the issues or NOT maybe nothing comes . Youll never get condoning responses for bad building practices here . perhaps the pro here KOH can expand?

• Why are you people are piling on after the fact? kayled asked for advice, got it,weighed it then made a discussion. A lot of ink was dedicated in the interest of posterity but imo kayled's last post above contain's more useful facts than everyone elses combined. I couldn't agree more with kayled about so called pros often being the worst enemy homeowners face. Based on countless tub and shower stalls I've torn into,I don't see why kayled's tile won't serve just fine. Many were done with less than kayled used. Were it not so piteous,claiming cement board to be unsuitable would be laughable. Hands down,the most impressive tile job I ever saw was over lath & plaster installed in the early 50s. It was still in perfect condition 40 years later when home was gutted for modernization. Far too much trust is given to methods simply because bureaucrats stuck the method in some code. The ability to parrot what others claim doesn't necessarily qualify one to criticize proceedures or actions. If you had first hand experience with mass failure of what kayled planned,details at the beginning might have been brought forth.

It's in advisable because it would look like you just rollered over dog vomit.

Lathe and plaster is fine right now...if you want to spend the money on something you can get with better performance for less money.

The new installation probably won't rot out if the correct "plastic" was chosen. I figure 50/50. It also won't look polished.

This is a very low end job (steel tub), but it's unfortunate that she couldn't be bothered to even take out the drywall. The weird issues where the layers occur isn't going to be handled well, either, I'm sure. If she's lucky she hasn't dented her home value to much.