If it wasn't for Austin roses, I might not be growing roses at all. I might grow a couple old roses, probably bourbons since in my climate the once-bloomers get destroyed by heat and wind, and I'm not that fond of the teas which suffer in the winter cold here anyway. Or a damask or two. But in all honesty, I probably would never have generated enough interest to figure out the difference between the classes of roses in the first place. I'm not fond of hybrid teas, and the floribundas before Austin roses were, well, boring. It was when I saw my first Austin roses that I swooned. Almost literally. My Austins are by far my favorite roses in my garden today and because of them, I have tried other roses, even hybrid teas and floribundas. This is not to say that all varieties are perfect. In my garden, Munstead Wood looks like a wild bramble patch, more thorns than leaves. Some of them sulk (Jude, Radio Times). Some of them fry (WS2K). I still don't think he has produced the perfect white rose, although I have yet to try Lichfield Angel (not quite white), Windermere (stiff), or Desdemona (I don't like the flower form). But I've been considering removing all my non-Austins to luxuriate in the deliciousness of Bishop's Castle, Alnwick Castle and Abraham Darby.

I think breeders are trying to emulate the Austin style of rose now, but none of them I've tried so far have that poise on the stem (I like the necks), the graceful bush form, the cupped flower form and fragrance that I want. I don't cut my roses so I don't notice vase life. Not all of Austin's have what I'm looking for either: some varieties seem too stiff to me... Benjamin Britten, Queen of Sweden, Boscobel (and yet I have this one). The Kordes roses that I have tried have not been very successful here. In the same planting bed as the Austins, they just don't want to grow and/or bloom. Sonia Rykiel is the only rose I have so far that is a non-Austin that fits my bill, and Sonia is a child of Abraham Darby.

Yes, Austin has some quirky business practices, but for the most part, they haven't bothered me. I haven't yet come across that discontinued rose that I long for to huge degree. Yes, the prices are high, but he is selling a unique product and one that took a huge amount of effort to produce. As an artist myself I know what artistic effort is worth. I don't begrudge an artist for charging $6,000 for an original piece of work as compared to a print or piece of Target art for $30. So I don't begrudge Austin charging $10 more for a rose bush. I've had my photographic images "stolen" for use in catalogs so I know what it feels like and don't blame Austin for making efforts to control his product. And Bishop's Castle and Abraham Darby are off patent now anyway, being more than 20 years old...

Beautiful form, fragrance, elegance....but my god the blackspot succeptibility just undermines every attribute. What good is a gorgeous flower sitting atop an ugly diseased bush? Its a shame too, because if they had been able to work disease resistance into their breeding from the start maybe our neighborhoods would be lined with Austins instead of hideous red knockouts. Those knockout owners often see my roses and ask about getting some and I have to tell them that honestly, unless you have a real passion for roses, and can commit significant time and money to keeping them healthy, then they aren't worth it, stick with your knockouts. It breaks my heart but its true.

I grow them just north of DFW along the Red River and they perform quite well except for the hot summer months of july and august. Infact they do mich better here in the semi arid climate we have than they did in my tropical climate in Galveston.

ebharvey1, could you include your zone, a short description of your standard growing procedures, and which specific varieties your experience is describing.

I just counted mine up, and over 50% of mine are Austins. When I think of a beautiful flower, I think of roses, and when I think of a beautiful rose, I think of the Austin roses. It is absolutely a matter of taste in regard to their lanky, nodding forms, which I also prefer over the HT's, but understand the other side as well. I grow several of mine as climbers which suits me just fine too. My Benjamin Britten is somewhat of a "sprawling spidery monster" as BenT describes, but I appreciate these qualities and am willing to spend the time trying to train him, though he does have a tendency to just go off in whichever direction he chooses. Unlike BenT's plant, my Benjamin is generous in bloom...almost continuously.

Here he is on this fall eve, still offering up a lovely supply of ball-shaped crayon red blooms still with a sweet fruit fragrance, and some are even right at nose-level.

Ben's spring flush this year:

I don't have any Kordes, but think I would value them for their disease resistance alone. As for Austin's business practices, I can appreciate noseometer's take. Can his cultivars be considered intellectual property? Perhaps this has already been legally defined in Austin's case. I would appreciate an explanation from those with more in-depth knowledge.

Henry, sure thing...

I am in coastal CT, zone 6b. My roses get full sun and are planted in a variety of garden beds with good loose soil thats amended a few times a year with manure from my goats. I use natural wood mulch. I am up on a bit of a hill and get good air circulation and early morning sun. The Austins I grow are Heritage, Carding Mill, Gentle Hermoine, Abe Darby, Mary Rose, Lichfield Angel, and Munstead Wood most were planted 2-3 years ago as bare roots directly from DA and all are on Dr Huey. I spray Bayer Advanced every 2-3 weeks. All of these varieties have shown similar blackspot succeptablity, with the possible exception of Lichfield Angel which seems to do slightly better. Despite being my favorite rose, Carding Mill is probably the hardest to keep clean - if I spray a week late she's half defoliated almost immediately.

I forgot about strawberry hill and ambridge.

I'm fortunate in that blackspot doesn't occur here...well, except Guy de Maupasssant and First Crush. Neither of those are Austins.

Too many of them look alike to me, the pink ones in particular. I prefer the older varieties, Belle Story is at the top of the list. I might consider Munstead Wood. I love the coloring of Lady Emma Hamilton, but after 3 tries, I won't buy another until I can get it on R. multiflora rootstock. I have a Heritage that is treated badly (it is under a lilac and behind a huge Blushing Knock Out), but it has survived for years. Teasing Georgia grew canes and leaves for two years, bloomed once the second year, then died after the third winter.

They all have to be treated regularly for blackspot here in east central NJ.

Thank you ebharvey1. I looked up each of your roses in Help-Me-Find and checked the disease resistance (also date of introduction). Your experience does not seem to be typical.

You stated: " I spray Bayer Advanced every 2-3 weeks." After reading that statement, I consider that we are not talking about natural disease resistance to normal blackspot (in your garden). Please note my use of "normal" as your use of a single strong chemical spray can result in eliminating the friendlies and cause your blackspot to mutate.

"Regardless, it's important that you not spray too often and with the same thing. You may end up with BS that nothing can kill."

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/1646666/best-fungicides

The following thread may be useful concerning Austin blackspot experience:

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/1659861/blackspot-resistant-david-austin-roses

I disagree. Before I started spraying every Austin would regularly defoliate almost completely. I did not do anything to cause that, except choosing to live where I live. I am sure my experience is not typical in a broader regional or continental context as most areas are less environmentally suitable for blackspot. What constitutes disease resistance in a dry climate, or what DA calls "highly resistant", is meaningless here and in many places along the East coast. I have definitely not, in a single season, created an invincible strain of fungus, and the Bayer product continues to work perfectly. But....if I miss an application the Austins spot right back up.

I for sure fell into the David Austin hype, it's hard not to with that beautiful catalog full of beautifully photographed roses, my husband calls it rose porn :). I grow several DA that I planted approx 5 years ago and here are the ones that do well for me:

Heritage ( my best DA, and my favorite)

Molineaux

The Prince

Tamora

All four of these roses are in the same bed and do very well in my SE TX heat and humidity as long as they get plenty of water, they do get minimal black spot but I don't spray and I try to keep it under control by keeping my beds clean of fallen BS leaves and this seems to help. Heritage is by far my best Austin, constantly in bloom and for the most part almost no BS. My biggest DA disappointments are Evelyn and Golden Celebration, both have a good spring flush and then pretty much have done nothing the rest of the season and they both are just two canes with no other growth, I am considering replacing them with roses that will actually bloom. I'll probably end up moving them to another part of my yard to give them one more chance because when they do bloom they are swoon worthy.

I am not sure if I will be planting anymore DA roses anytime soon, I am going to concentrate more on old tea roses, hybrid musk roses and the Kordes roses. Although I would one day like to have Munstead Wood, Abe Darby and PAOK.

i think it's like growing any other Rose and comes down to location location location. What does well in my yard might not do well in another so we all just have to play it by ear.

ebharvey1, perhaps you can give us an internal comparison of the blackspot resistance of your other roses under your conditions.

Of the Austin roses that you have, I only have the 1984 Heritage which the Help-Me-Fine respondents (28 replies) rate as Good+. I went out yesterday and checked it. It does have some blackspot on almost every leaf, but it has not lost any leaves. It is my understanding (from the published scientific literature)http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/17429140701701071

that this is because (my interpretation) there is an equilibrium between the friendly fungi and the blackspot fungi plus the friendly fungi help trigger the rose immune response..

Conclusion section from the above published research paper:
"In conclusion, fungal and bacterial antagonist reduced the growth of D. rosae effectively under in vitro conditions. Application of talc-based formulation of P. fluorescens consistently reduced the incidence of black spot in rose. Prior application of biocontrol agents triggered the plant-mediated defense mechanism in response to infection by D. rosae. Earlier studies revealed that biocontrol agents P. fluorescens and T. viride were effective against several diseases of crop plants. Thus, the present investigation suggested that Pseudomonas fluorescens could be used as a potential biocontrol agent against the management of black spot of rose. It was capable of independent multiplication on phylloplane and causes a drastic reduction of D. rosae population."

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I am in late retirement and cut back my no spray rose garden from about 1000 varieties to around 60 so I have not tried any of the new Austins.

I'm still having a hard time reconciling everyone's glowing Austin reviews with the actual plants I've seen. I discovered that I happen to live just 20 miles away from a rose garden that is an official David Austin trial and display ground (Farmer's Branch Rose Gardens). I decided to visit it for the first time today. They must have well over 100 varieties of Austins (really, every one I've heard about here and on HMF), and easily over 1000 Austin bushes. Here's what they typically look like:

They are haphazardly sprawling, nearly bloomless monsters, pretty similar to what I had at home before I got shovel happy. Hard to believe this is something that is consciously being cultivated, much less put on public display in a million dollar garden. Note this is end of September, weather getting more pleasant, and my own garden of HTs is looking decent, if I do say so:

Heirloom, Lowes clearance bin for $1:

Love & Peace, PJP , Rio Samba , all first year plants:

So yes, while I certainly trust others have great experiences with them, Austins are a big downer in my experience. If my roses looked like that Austin display garden, I'd switch to petunias and zinnias.

BenT stated: "official David Austin trial and display ground ". This is what the web page states:
"David Austin Roses has sponsored a major trial of both shrub and climbing roses. These beautiful roses are being trialed under spray and no spray conditions. The first year was 2014 and many roses promise to be strong performers in our area. "

http://www.farmersbranch.info/502/EarthKind-Rose-and-Display-Garden

Are your pictures from the no spray part of their rose garden? To me there could be a world of difference between a trial rose and a display rose. Are some of these roses, ones that may never be sold commercially?

The link, under the EarthKind paragraph states: "Beautiful roses are being grown using environmentally friendly practices and minimal irrigation."

Do you know what other conditions/practices are being applied to the Austin trial roses?

My Austins haven't had their fall flush yet, but they will soon.

I'm not reading the postings as glowing reviews. I'm actually hearing them described as disease ridden pains. I think I'm lucky in a sense, that they aren't here, but they are sensitive to wind and heat damage. They need a lot of water and fertilizer. Certainly not perfect roses. In the Albuquerque Rose Garden, the Austins have a big flush in the spring, then nothing or nearly nothing for most of the rest of the summer, whereas other roses continue. They give a few flowers in the fall. I suspect that they aren't getting as much sun (planted in the shade of street trees), water and fertilizer as they need to perform. In my garden however, the form and fragrances of the flowers and the shrub form instead of "lollipop on a stick" look makes them worthwhile and I certainly wouldn't be planting HT's in their spots if I didn't have Austins. They may not be for everybody, that's for sure.

Getting a bit more pampered in my garden (but still getting some root competition from trees and getting less than attentive watering and fertilizing), as opposed to the Rose Garden they continue to flower. Here are some pictures from today.

Alnwick Castle

Bishop's Castle

Munstead Wood

Boscobel

Claire Austin

See what I mean?

Noseometer, can I have your Boscobel? It's my new favorite. :-) I should probably take that Guy de Maupassant off your hands while I'm at it? lol Sorry that one didn't work out as well as you had hoped.

Austin roses have been some of my favorites and also my least favorites. I'm also lucky that there is so little disease in my climate so that hasn't been much of a factor in my garden.

My favorites:

Boscobel - that color is so unique and the blooms are so gorgeous. I'm really impressed with the strong necks and the vase time.

Munstead Wood has been spectacular for me in part shade. Those velvety petals and a fantastic fragrance - real wow factors. (I've been doing bouquets of MW with Julia Child - spectacular.)

Also, Sweet Juliet's fragrance is fantastic. She's just precious and blooms in clusters.

My least favorites:

St. Swithun - what's the point? Very few blooms for me. Ditto Geoff Hamilton (even tho the blooms are gorgeous).

The Ingenious Mr. Fairchild - a lovely fragrance, but I'm tired of seeing the blooms fry in my climate.

All my other Austins are either too young to tell yet or are more just ok for my taste.

I'm not convinced there can ever be a complete consensus about any rose because of climate, soil, care and condition differences. It's interesting to hear which roses do what in certain circumstances/zones.

My Boscobel is not my favorite color either. I thought Diane didn't like her PA of Kent because it was too coral, but she liked Boscobel. I interpreted that as Boscobel being less coral, although here it is not. I am hoping it improves next year and heads toward the pink. This color fluctuation is a challenge.

I have a multitude of Austins. This hasn't been their best year as just about the time they were fully recovering from the move from Galveston we bought a house and I moved them again last spring.

Graham Thomas- Great rose for me once it gets established.

Teasing Georgia- what can i say i like yellows.

Golden Celebration- great Rose

Crown Princess Margareta- probanly my best yellow rose. It is growing on a trellis I made.

Princess Alexandra of Kent- Great dark pink blooms.

Princess Anne-lots of blooms in spring and fall.

Lady of Shallott-bloom machine is all i will say.

Munstead wood- Beautiful red blooms. Lots of blooms with beautiful foliage. Yes in Texas sun blooms burn fast but oh well.

Scepter d Isle- lots of growth and blooms.

Heritage- Great rose with soft blooms

Olivia Rose Austin-good light pink

Alnwick-straight upright growth pretty color

Queen of sweden-good bloom

Falstaff- Beautiful red

Abraham Darby is another nice performer.

I have a few others that are too young to really comment on.

The 2 I am frustrated with are Emma Hamilton and the Lady Gardener but we shall see.

None of them here on rolling plains, defoliate.

Here in the midwest, I grow probably around 50 varieties of Austins, and they definitely do best for me in their first spring flush:

But as the season progresses, they become more sparse of foliage, bloom less, disliking the heat and humidity. Some, like Jude the Obscure, hardly bloom at all for me, perhaps craving more water than I give it, as I tend not to water much. I typically do not spray, either. Since the Japanese beetles come around the 4th of July, I do not so much mind their taking a rest from blooming in the later summer. If this winter is like other years, I will probably again curl up with my old David Austin catalogs and just take pleasure in studying the beautiful pictures and descriptions of these lovely, lovely roses!

Even though I'm in zone 10a in southern California, my experience has been very much like vickysgarden's. Spring is awesome in Austinland. Summer is hit or miss.

Munstead Wood, Molineux, and Carding Mill are standouts. Tranquillity started bad, eventually settled in and had a humungous (and long) spring flush.

Darcey Bussell did magnificently the first two years, but this year, not so much. Not sure why - nothing's changed, except that we had tons of rain last winter, which was good for all growing things, so - ? Tess had heatstroke -- as well as a major problem with Dr. Huey rootstock bursting forth -- but she has come back well, not with a lot of blooms, however. Alnwick Castle and Queen of Sweden are now settled, established plants and bloomed now and again all summer.

Falstaff, which I almost sp'd numerous times, surprised me this year. I had gorgeous, very fragrant blooms from April through June, and I've had a few since. The shovel rests.

Can't ignore Tamora, which never stops and is always fragrant.

Yes, their growth patterns are haphazard (except for QofS), but that is part of their charm. I grow most of mine in the back where they can sprawl wherever they wish.

Like others, I came to roses through the DA catalog, and I don't regret it. I agree that their prices are too high, and their shipping completely outrageous, but I can buy them here at Otto & Sons, which also has a DA "test garden", during annual sales for a hefty chunk off.

VIckysgarden, I loved your Princess Anne. If I buy any more Austins, that might be one of them. And I, too, await next year's catalog!

I still don't know what to think of these Austin roses.I have quite a few, and though sometimes I think that the individual flowers are nice, the over-all effect of these plants has not won my heart. Note well that all I ask for really from my roses is a good spring flush;, since I can't provide artificial irrigation my plants have to get by on rain once established. Here in Italy summers are horribly hot and dry,so I just don't expect much in the way of re-bloom in any rose. But the point is that some roses just awe and thrill me with their beauty during that spring flush :Purple Skyliner, Mme. Solvay,Robusta,Sir Paul Smith,Excellenz Von Schubert,to name a few. None of the Austins has ever done that really. Maybe they are just greedy and need lots of fertilizer, rich soil, etc. But to say that "they were bred in England and this is why they can't do well in your climate" doesn't wash, IMO. Sir Paul Smith was bred in England by Amanda Beales . Her "Rural England" rose also has impressed me, covering itself as it does with flowers. Purple Skyliner, bred by Frank Colishaw,is from the UK as well.None of these roses (no one seems to ever call these"English roses") get coddled in any way, and yet give to me generously every year.Not so the Austins. They seem to be like people who just can't stop whining,people who consider themselves as perennially deprived victims who feel that somehow they derserve more,even though there are soo, soo many others who are far worse off. Primadonnas....yuck.

I haven't given up yet on Austins; I know my soil is poor and my garden too large for me to be able to care for very well. But in general I think I'd have to say that as a group they are highly over-rated. There are much, much better roses around. Austins clearly do well for some people in some situations,but in general I think they have been pumped up by a lot of commercial hype. I really, really dislike the Austin buisness practices,too.

Bart, I don't know the why's and wherefore's of Austin roses needing more water and nutrients, but they just do, at least in my garden. If I let up on the water, especially, they let up on the blooms and plant growth. I don't think of them as primadonnas, rather as roses that were not bred for my climate, yet are hard working plants that give me blooms if I give them what they need to manufacture those blooms. I do recognize there are other English roses that do not come from the Austin breeders. I don't have the ones you mentioned but I just told someone today that my Rhapsody in Blue is an English rose - Cowlishaw, I believe. I am fortunate enough to live where water is plentiful and I don't have to purchase nutrients because I use manure from my chickens. At initial planting time, I use Plant Tone or one of the Tones in the planting mix, but none after that. Water, mostly, is all they ask. I know that water for your roses is difficult to impossible for you, and you are wise not to grow Austins. You garden under harsh conditions that I would find too prohibitive to even try, yet your roses sound wonderful and give you a lot of pleasure.

The problems many of you are experiencing with getting good flower output and acceptable green growth from your Austins is your climate and your management, or lack thereof.

Austin roses are bred to thrive in an English climate: cold, but not intense winters; overcast skies, ample water, and moderate summer heat. Austin roses are black spot prone, they are not ADR winners. This is their nature.

Attempt to grow Austins under different conditions, and you can reasonably expect them to under perform.

Daytime highs hitting 90+ for weeks on end, intense sunlight, no black spot intervention, no watering other than natural rainfall.....all these negative conditions and more, which do not match the Austins' English growing conditions, and expecting them to perform well...you are not being realistic.

Moses

I agree with you, Moses. A good part of the rose growing US is far brighter, hotter, and more arid than tender old England or frosty Germany. That's why my favorite roses are still the HT and Floribundas. Those roses introduced by Swim&Weeks, Warriner or Zary, by their performance you know they underwent significant trials in the US South, be it inland California, Texas, or Arizona. They'll definitely need some form of insect and fungus control in most climates, but they can be spectacular in the heat of the US South. Weeks' is now going in the direction Kordes/Austin but with more of a US performance emphasis with their 'Easy' roses. They are a few years behind in development but roses like 'Julia Child' certainly combine nice habit, generous summer bloom and easy care over a wide swath of the US.

My experiences with them are more like Flowers, though we have totally different climates and probably soil.

We're still at 95 today with a much higher heat index because of the humidity but the Austins are still pumping out blooms. I use a lot of compost but also an incredible amount of constant water.

The combination of heat and water has really agreed with them here, though Jude is the first one to blackspot if there isn't enough water, a concept that seemed backwards to me at first so took me a while to figure out.

What has surprised me is how they can take full scorching heat and keep blooming. And yet I also have dozens planted in an area that gets only four hours of direct sun at the longest time of the year, dwindling down to zero. But I think our shade is much brighter than other people's though.

So I've been slowly replacing dozens of Kordes which require way less water, but to my nose, not as good of a fragrance, or as pretty. But in my humble opinion, the Kordes often have better foliage and disease resistance, with longer lasting blooms.

There's just something special about the Austins that appeal to me, though they don't last as long in the vase either. So I definitely understand the detractors!

Mine are all own-root, no-spray, high temperatures, high humidity. I have areas with different kinds of soil, and some definitely do better in sandy fast-draining soil where it seems impossible to over-water them.

Another downside is the excessive size of the plants but that's probably my fault with all of the water! I'm hoping maturity will allow them to have less in the future.

I adore my Austins and credit them to both my full blown obsession with roses and my very low bank account. LOL

I'm with Noseometer in that I don't think I would be SO into roses if it weren't for David Austin. I absolutely loathed the traditional HT rose that was tall, leggy and had one big bloom on top. But when I discovered Austins, and how they grow so well in the perennial garden, and kind of cascade and are more shrub like than HT, I was smitten. Not to mention the gorgeous, rounded old fashioned blooms. I never looked at HTs the same way again.

In my climate, Austins are hit or miss (and so are Kordes, and so are weeks, etc). Not every Austin is the same and not all are great in all climates. I have had many many failures, but the ones that I do have that do well top any other breeder in my garden.

Darcey B, Spirit of Freedom, Teasing Georgia, Heritage, Pat Austin, Windermere, Geoff Hamilton, Litchfield Angel and Huntington rose are the most beautiful and best blooming roses in my garden. Not to mention, Evelyn. Evelyn is the most consistent and beautiful rose in my garden. She's also one of the healthiest roses in my no-spray and very challenging climate. None are BS free, but many will grow and bloom and shake off the BS here. They bloom year round, they may defoliate by end of summer, but they grow the leaves right back and just keep on blooming.

Many austins have done poorly for me too, Alnwick Castle, Jude the O, The Dark Lady, and countless others have succumbed to disease and failed here, but the ones that do like it in South Florida, outperform all my hybrid teas.

Kordes roses have been amazing for me in that many have stayed very clean and are extremely healthy, but none compare to my Austins in terms of pure beauty of flower.

The ones that have done the best for me are all grafted on Fortuniana, but some I grow on their own roots. The only one that does well for me on Dr.H is, for some reason, Huntington Rose, and only it a pot (not in the ground) but in that pot she is happy!

I think Austin may have certain practices that are odd, and they are expensive plants (the VIPs of the rose world per say) but you have to admit that they brought a diversity to the rose world that did not exist prior. He brought interest back to the OGR and shrub roses, and I'm so glad that we have more of that variety now.

I too am a huge fan of other "non-austin" roses that have that English Rose look. Sonia Rykel, Bolero, Red Riding Hood, Earth Angle, and the "Romanticas" by Meiland are all roses I love and adore, and I credit that to Mr. Austin.

By the way, my new favorite non-austin is Princess Charlene De Monaco. I bet Austin wishes he had bred that beauty. LOL

Ben,

I totally agree with you about HTs and floribundas. They are far more adaptable. Many of them were bred by Americans for American gardeners. Although HTs, and their close kin, are not the 'Rose of the Hour', these days, they work extremely well for me. They are well represented in my garden in spite of their need of black spot care, and winter protection.

Moses

SoFL,how do you prune your Austins?

This is a good thread,though if I were to nit-pick I'd say that there is clearly some "doubts" about Austins, lol! Here we are seeing that there are indeed people in hot climates who grow Austins very successfully,so again I don't think it's exact to say that they were bred for the English climate and can only flourish there. And though there is a lot that I thoroughly dislike about the David Austin and his company,I agree that he did indeed achieve something very significant for the rose world by his breeding program (though I read somewhere that he wasn't even interested in roses ; he was working on tomatoes or something totally unrelated, and kind of "stumbled upon" roses). Also I totally, totally agree with SoFL about HTs; I just do not like that habit of the stiff plant with flowers stuck on top!!!

My garden's conditions are indeed challenging, to say the least, and I definitely DO take the point about nutrition and water. Actually I think that I am trying to be "realistic", however; otherwise I would have sp'd all my Austins long ago. They don't seem to be very diseasey at all in my garden; my gripe is that they don't produce a lot of flowers in general, and some do look a lot like the ones in Ben's photos,yet when I try to train them as climbers they don't respond by blooming. But before giving up on them I want to try 2 things on them. First, improve cultural practices, by which I basically am thinking MULCH,MULCH,MULCH. I have so many roses it's kind of hard to remember, but I have this vague impression of my Austins tending to be rather good in their first couple years ,but then getting "too big for their britches", as it were: turning into huge green plants that won't even give the decent spring flush (which is all I ask of any rose). So perhaps they use up all the soil goodies over the course of 3 years or so, after which the soil has become too depleted to support the giant plant and allow it to bloom as well. It could be possible to correct this somewhat by adding thick organic mulch on a regular basis. I also think I maybe should just bite the bullet and prune them back drastically, not to achieve re-bloom, but simply to reduce the size of the green growth . Maybe if the soil doesn't have to support all that green growth the plant would flower more???

i have found what works best for my Austins as far as pruning goes is to prune hard in the spring and I also prune again at the end of July, this keeps mine more shrubby than tall and lanky. I agree with some of the others that David Austin is the reason I originally got interested in roses. I started researching DA roses which led me to this forum and that led me to a whole other world of roses I didn't know existed lol. I would not have any of my teas, polyanthas, climbers, Kordes etc if it wasn't for my initial interest in DA roses and I certainly wouldn't have the knowledge that I do today if it wasn't for this forum. I don't dislike my DA roses in fact several are my favorite roses but I also try to understand how each of my roses was meant to be grown and try to accommodate them as such, for example I treat my tea roses very differently than my HT or floribundas, and I know that my DA's require more water and food than others to perform so that's what they get from me. I wouldn't discourage anyone from trying David Austin roses, they are some of my most beautiful roses and I'm truly glad I have them as part of my Rose family in the garden.

Yes, Bart, mulch is what I forgot to add in my earlier comment. Mulch changed my soil drastically for the better - not just Austins, but all my roses improved. I use arborist wood chip mulch because that's what I have, but anything to hold in the moisture and decomposes to feed the soil works. I can't say enough about how this changed my garden. Weeds are noticeably fewer, but the ones I do get pull out as if they were in butter, long tap roots and all. The worm population exploded and the soil maintains moisture, even in hot weather. I used to lose roses to winter kill, but not since I started mulching.

Boncrow,if you were asked to prune those "haphazardly sprawling, nearly bloomless monsters" shown in BenT's first and third photos,how would you do it? Would you just chop them down to half their height, for example? My Huntington Rose (Alan Titchmarsh) was very pleasing in it's first couple of years, but by now looks much like the plants in Ben's picture. I've tried training it as a climber, but it didn't bloom much anyway. Now, I know that this area of the garden definitely needs a big load of organic matter, etc,but I do wonder if my minimalist pruning attitude might be part of the problem as well.

My James Galway is a huge, huge plant; it's been frustrating, because of it's stiff habit: like a giant sized HT,I mainly get blooms at the top,2-3 meters in the air, where I can't see them. It also has an enormous thicket of basal canes. I've been trying to train this as a climber,too, and this year it was a bit better; I think it even might be putting out somewhat more supple canes,which is what I really want,so I can train them horizontally. I don't like the idea of whacking this one back too much, because as a plant it is rather handsome,with it's dark green, healthy foliage,and in any case it's in a place where I really do require a climber. But do you think it might be a good idea to remove some of those basals?

Bart I am not a expert at pruning so don't take anything I say to heart, I just look at each individual Austin and prune according. For example ny Heritage will get large and leggy if I don't prune in the summer and I don't prune it as hard as I do in the spring. As far as the roses Ben showed us from the trial garden I'm honestly not sure what I would do because it depends on the roses, I'm wondering since it's a test garden if they are not getting watered and fed regularly, that would explain the lack of blooms. Follow your instincts is my advice, if James Galloway is growing the way you want I would leave well enough alone but I wouldn't be afraid to prune any others you feel would benefit from a good haircut, it will always grow back. I am going to experiment with my Golden Celebration this spring, it has only been two canes for five years with no basal growth, so I am going to whack it down to about six inches and see what happens. I'm hoping to force it to push out more basal canes but ya never know, I just know it can be better than it is now and I don't have anything to lose by trying. I know your climate is much different than mine so what works for me might not work for you, I am able to water mine more frequently and I do mulch and add compost to my soil.

i almost forgot to add that while reading about the different roses in the David Austin catalog it does say that some roses would benefit from a summer pruning in a warmer climate.

I prune my austins twice a year (or whenever I find them getting leggy). I always do my hardest pruning this time of year after the summer has worn them ragged and in order to get nice good blooms in the cooler fall weather.

If you've ever ordered a rose from DA, you'll see how the bare roots come pruned very very hard. Most come with canes at around 6 inches. They always bloom best (for me) the first year they are planted. I think this has to do with two things. They have been pruned severely and they had good care before shipping (and also a good long rest period of cold but not extremely cold weather).

I prune mine back, I never let them get taller than 4 feet. Even in the middle of the year, but I have no frost or winter kill to worry about. I also treat all my other roses the same way.

However, with that being said, the only ones I dont prune back, have been my two best performers. Those are Evelyn and Pat Austin. Those I let grow as they please and only prune for aesthetics. Meanwhile they reward me with ample blooms. (Ample blooms here is not what you guys have there in spring, we have no cold weather to encourage a large spring bloom, here we just get flushes like you would after your spring bloom, but we get them year round).

Some Austins are just better bloomers than others too, but like most roses, they respond well to pruning. But like all roses, I don't like to classify them in one group. Austins may have similar traits, but each and every variety has its own habit and behavior. Try to treat each rose as an individual and not all Austins as the same rose.

Austin's definitely don't sulk when pruned. I have prunedan 8 ft Lady of Shallot back to 1.5 ft to move it from the gulf coast to North Texas and the next year it was already 6ft tall again. My experience is that you can prune Austin's hard and often and they respond well to it.

I completely agree with Ben's remarks and I've had and witnessed the same experience w/ many Austins in DFW and Central TX- sprawling, gangly, water hogging monsters that seldom bloom and blackspot often. Tamora is one of the very few Austin's I've admired in DFW.

The only DA I grow is Sharifa Asma . So far it has stayed very small around one foot after a year even though it is on Fortuniana . The blooms are lovely but blow very fast .It does get BS but does not defoliate . I like a well behaved bush , that's why I did not buy any more DAs .

I will add that while strolling around my Austin roses this morning, I noticed among the many which had lost their leaves, the beautiful green foliage of Oliva Austin....she was still fully clothed and not yellowed or blackspotted. Although not blooming her healthy very green leaves make her a shining star in the fall rose garden here, very much living up to her catalog description of avoiding disease......in my case, even under stressed conditions of very little rain and a string of 90-degree fall temperatures!

People, I did not intentionally put a link in my post! but I tried to edit it away and couldn't...

Gangly, water hogging monsters??? Phooey (except for the late PAoK). Diane

Haha! Well, Diane, that should put this myth to rest! No one can match your Austins for beauty, vigor and size. And, in case someone here doesn't know, Diane gardens in a desert.

Oh Diane!!!! Unbelievable amount of blooms!!! I am in awe!!

Carol

Thanks, you two. You are such loyal friends, and you grow some gorgeous roses--Carol and her Grande Dame, and Flowers has a Versigny I'm lusting after, among a lot of others. Diane

Awwww...right back atcha! But yours are way nicer than mine. LOL

Carol

Extraordinary pictures Diane! I'm always running out of adjectives because each picture is more fabulous than the last!

Another thumbs up for Olivia Austin . Mine is a great prolific bloomer and super clean. My favorite of all of my new roses.

See, Diane's pictures are one of the reasons why I haven't yet given up on Austins. If I could get mine to do anything like that just once a year...It might not be possible; I know I spread my resources very, very thinly : short on water, soil never cultivated before I arrived,etc.

Diane's your Golden Celebration is glorious and the reason I haven't given up on mine yet.

Diane, definitely an Austin savant. Wowza