This is just my own prejudice, and I've never seen Belle Portugaise, but in a climate where roses will bloom many months of the year I would be reluctant to give a great deal of space to a rose that blooms only once. I would choose Reve d'Or, which I have grown and consider to be very beautiful, and it too has the potential to get very large but is fairly manageable, with relatively few thorns and a fairly limber growth habit. I foolishly planted it against a hot house wall and no longer have it. If I had your space I would plant it without a doubt.

Cori Ann, I'm inclined to agree with John. Ha, ha! Small children and incense. The mature specimens of BP that I've seen growing in the south inspire comparisons to grape vines and wisteria. Think canopy. Big, expansive and heavy. A sturdy pergola would be a great support for a BP, but I wouldn't be inclined to ask my fence to withstand that kind of increasing pressure. Maintenance would probably be a bugbear, too. BP is truly spectacular in full flush. No words to describe her. Stunning! However, I think a more manageable climber is in order for your fence. Ingrid's suggestion is a good one. Or Gloire de Dijon if she behaves in your area? Carol

I love once bloomers. I love healthy foliage. I love the intense flush, then the rest. It adds variety and a sense of seasons. I have lots of other things in bloom so I don't need all of my garden plants to bloom all the time. I really like the variety.

I'm not buying any more roses (too many)... So I won't be putting a climbing rose across that fence if BP won't do. I already actually have quite a few climbers near there that may end up growing that far in time. I add support with rebar and additional trellises/wires/structures... but you are all right. BP needs an actual structure.

Sigh. So I'm still looking for a spot for the BPs I already have.

I shouldn't have bought them until the structure was built. :-/

I guess I could just keep nursing them in baby pots until we figure out if we are actually going to even build the structure or not.

You know... I actually know how to build a grape trellis addition near a fence. I guess I *could* build that once I have some free time if we decide not to go ahead with the structure. Like this?? Think this would be enough?? (but waaaaaaaayyyy longer)

Or I could pay someone else to build a really nice one. Like this...

So maybe the fence area could work as plan B as long as it's not really on the fence and we build something to support it.

Ok now I have some additional ideas to float around. ;-)

It would have to be way longer though. Think that could work as a possible option?

Roses (and other climbers) fanned out on a fence looks better than them concentrated at the top of a massive, thick beamed arbor. But there is the practical question of your existing fence being up to the job - it already looks a bit wobbly and appears to be touching the ground, instead of set on stirrups in concrete posts. So I'd be concerned about it snapping off and blowing over after the roses had been in place for years, resulting in a fine mess.

Otherwise I would put a support for climbers on top of an adequately sturdy existing fence instead of building a separate one in front of it. Maybe even starting over with a new fence if necessary, in order to make sure it all works together. Continuing with this the similarity between the fence and the arbor + trellis in the scheme shown in the third picture above makes the latter feature look particularly redundant. Why have a fence with a trellis on top with another trellis right in front of the fence, at the same height as the trellis on the fence?

And, yes, the spring only vs. extended bloom is simply a matter of which effect is preferred. Typically with large growing once bloomers there is a spectacular mass display that long blooming kinds may often never quite match.

It's the old rose lover's dilemma, Cori Ann.

If I don't purchase that rare and perfect rose (the one for which I've suffered and obsessed in covetous agony) far in advance of planting, my preferred specialty nursery will sell out one minute before I place my order, the own-root band that arrives will be too tiny and fragile to introduce to the bed space and will immediately turn crispy and black upon touching garden soil, or the window of observation prior to planting will be so slim that I won't discover that my heart's desire is actually a mislabeled and visciously armed house eater or the ever insidious Dr. Huey until the malignant beast has settled in with a taproot running to the center of the earth.

BUT if I do purchase far in advance, my planting plans will change, the construction schedule will come to a screeching halt due to a Spanish flu epidemic or a previously undisclosed oil tank buried smack in the middle of the project, a tornado will mysteriously strike my neighborhood, a flash flood will wipe out the whole town, or the rose will bloom in time for me to discover the nursery sent a mislabeled plant but not in time for me to reorder before every grower on the planet has sold out.

Best of luck with revising your plans for BP! Hey, at least you probably have the real deal...whatever you decide to do with her. Carol

I like your arbors running along the fence. That plan could be genius! Carol

I also think the arbor could work out if those roses get as large as I'm guessing they will, given all your other roses' growth! : ) In addition, it has the advantage of completely hiding any view of neighboring houses. All the growth would probably hang down and obscure part of the fence. Dreamy! I totally understand working with what roses you have and not getting anymore. It's best to grow those well and not be stressed over their upkeep, although If my roses grew like yours, it would be a hard internal battle.

Connie from Hartwood Roses has a wonderful arcade that she designed which is similar in feeling and function. Here's a link: http://hartwoodroses.blogspot.com/search?q=arcade

Search under 'pergola' and 'arbor' for other great ideas that she's posted. Her site is amazing with fantastic pictures.

Thanks for all of the quick feedback and advice! The fence does look older and rickety in the photo doesn't it? It's fairly new though and very sturdy. It's a weird angle. Looks like it's leaning. It's not though. Still... good thinking not to stress it with a heavy rose on one side.

Especially because that neighbor is the only neighbor I really dislike. I would be happy if we never had to deal with them... especially in the construction of a broken or new fence.

Maybe because I dislike them so much it is a good reason to shield them from view.

If we do go that route, I would also add some sort of cross beams Embothrium... so it wouldn't just be on top. Although, I think BP is especially beautiful on the top of a structure.... that's why I got them. :-) I wouldn't be able to enjoy them drooping down toward me over there though.

Hmm. I need to keep thinking about this. I want a glorious walkway or lounging area that is covered with BP. But I don't think we are going to build that right now. Hmmmm. Maybe. ??

Carol, you're right. If I didn't have BP already then some chain of events could have happened where we already built it and I didn't have the rose for it and BP couldn't be found anywhere. Such is life right?

If we really decide not to build anything I am sure I could post on here for other Bay Area locals and someone would snatch both of them up.

Sigh. Thank you for all of your perspectives. It seems like I am just going to keep them potted until I decide. Lots more thinking to do on this.

You'll have to decide quickly though because keeping a BP in a (small I suppose) pot for long is not an easy thing. It will get too tall and unmanageable very soon.

Very true. Mine seem to be suspended in time for the time being. They haven't done anything at all for a few months. The small pulp pots are maintaining them and pausing them for now. They are just bands after all.

Hey Cori - Here are a few photos of BP I took at the Sacramento Historic Cemetery. Sorry for the poor photo quality.

I remember that BP was tagged because the volunteers needed to do some maintenance on it. It's a lovely rose, the color is breathtaking but the growth habit can get a bit messy. It's growing near the metal fence that borders the cemetery but isn't growing on it.

The branches seem very tangled, thick, and needing strong support.

Looking forward to seeing what you decide to do!

Ann

Thanks Ann. What a mess! I hope they figured out what to do with it and solved the problem. That's good incentive to not try it against a fence.

It is such a glorious sight when climbing along a structure. Here's one of the many photos (not a focused one though) that served as inspiration for my belle portugaise purchase... now if only I could build that in the back yard. ;-)

photo take from: http://www.rosegathering.com/belledec.html

That would be a perfect structure for BP since she wants to lie down and grow wide.

Ann

I have got to stop coming to this thread. My frustration in not being able to grow BP knows no bounds, lol. Do grow it wide and tall, Cori Ann, so I can at least enjoy it vicariously ;)

(jealous) John

LOVE that structure in the photo too, Cori Ann. I can certainly see why you were inspired! I've been wondering if some sort of rose tunnel/rose covered walkway might work - I mean, running along all or part of the path, with the fence forming most of one side of it? Then Les Deux Belles Portugueses could droop and drape through the gaps and you could look up at the lovely nodding blooms and be surrounded with their perfume as you wander through...

I hear the foliage is good - both plentiful and healthy; if that turned out to be so in your garden, the ladies could go on providing nice green shade along the path there right through summer, after their blooms were over. But of course I don't know if such a tunnel would work within the overall style and layout and functions of your garden, and whether you'd be able/ want to build it, etc, etc - just musing out loud really... :-)

Cori's picture is Descanso's belle. It didn't take many years to grow over that structure. Before that, they grew a belle out front on a tall wrought iron or maybe another kind of metal? Fence and that belle was GIGANTIC. Ten feet high and easily a foot thick and maybe twenty feet wide. Belle in the ground shoots THICK tall rigid canes. You can bend them a bit or tie them down but not with ease. Some of the laterals are more pliable and the little parts with the blooms will hang downward. Belle needs a big area or at least to be up in the air. Freestanding and with no training or pruning, she might resemble a big haystack. I love this rose dearly and grew one once but realized I didn't have the required space. I think you could train one with patience but never in a small space.

Ingrid, I think there would be room for two roses. A huge arching belle and another tied in to belles thick woody canes or climbing around in them. Belle could easily support another rose. You could space the belles and plant a different climber like lamarque to fill in the lower areas. I have sometimes wondered about belle with MAC as a combination. One day I'm going to try that when I have plenty of pruning, training time to spare.

Kittymoonbeam, how would you work the spacing of the plants in your above scheme? I would like to try something similar. I have a large Souvenir de Mme. Leonie Viennot, and I'd like to train a later-blooming rose into it's arms to extend the bloom season. How much space would you leave between the root systems of the roses?

Well I think we decided on having a structure built after all. We got a great deal on a prefab 12x16 pergola/gazebo. It's smaller than I originally planned so I'm not sure if that will be large enough for both bands as they grow, but at least one band will definitely go there.

I will most likely pair it with an everblooming, reliable rose like lceberg. I tend to do that in my garden and I like the effect. Not sure if I will use climbing Iceberg or regular Iceberg.

Stay tuned. Rose porn photos of Belle Portugaise will follow in the coming months/years.

I promise to generously share photos so you can enjoy it vicariously John (and others)

:-)

Thank you in advance, Cori Ann. I'm glad you're going with the gazebo. It should be big enough, at least during your lifetime, lol. I'm looking forward to being both tempted and impressed.